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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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Skeeter Mania

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I think he was being figurative in his expression.

Either way, while it definitely helps to have firsthand experience with the character you're discussing, you don't have to "main" the character to provide productive insights. I don't think @TriTails plays Pit in any meaningful capacity, yet he perfectly described Pit's off-stage game, even more concisely than I'd have done. Sometimes you can get equally good insights by fighting the character rather than playing them directly. It definitely offers a different perspective than you might be used to just from controlling the character yourself.

It's a fine line between just discussing your own character and talking about something you know nothing about. Neither extreme is very helpful. On the one hand, you can have discussions based on one-dimensional experience with a certain character and nothing else; on the other hand, the discussion can be misinformed theorycraft that has no basis in reality. You have to have some cogent knowledge of the character to engage in a proper, productive conversation, you can't just make up statistics out of thin air with no prior experience and maintain it's de facto truth; yet short of "maining" every character in the roster, you can't expect knowledge to be disseminated based on the criteria that, if you don't play the character, you don't know the character.

This is relevant to Meta Knight for one simple reason, and that reason is the fact that Meta Knight is a very easily misunderstood character. This is a character that was initially considered unviable trash due to weird hitbox placement and no reliable combo game, yet who became a tournament-viable threat over the course of a couple of balance patches. To the casual observer, this seems to have happened overnight: until the likes of (initially) Leo and (currently) Abadango began taking games off of big-name players at relevant tourneys, most people with a passing interest in the tournament scene wrote off Meta Knight as a flash in the pan and nothing more. Now that Meta Knight has become something of a vogue trend in recent times, with people frequently citing him as a potential candidate for top tier and vague whisperings that he might have an even matchup with Sheik (disclaimer: I am not saying he does or does not), you have people suddenly taking an interest in what he can do and chattering about why he's suddenly become a relevant character in the meta. This will naturally begin a process of people trying to hop on the bandwagon and yield the same success that these top Meta Knight players have, near-invariably with no success; this then has the contingent side-effect of convincing a vocal minority that Meta Knight is just (to purloin the popular parlance) a "fraud" and that top players just rely on cheese and easy-bake combos to succeed. This is both unfortunately misinformed and potentially detrimental to greater understanding of the Meta Knight...meta. Then you have the inevitable few pessimists who still have a sour taste in their mouths from Brawl and think Meta Knight players want to exploit Smash 4 in the same way, just ride the galactic crusdader's midnight coattails to an easy victory.

The truth, as I understand it, is that this is not the case and people have greatly misinterpreted the character's inherent ease of use. Amadeus9 Amadeus9 pointed it out a few minutes back: Abadango didn't just pick up Meta Knight one day and decide he was going to win tourneys with him, he practiced very hard behind the scenes and is still trying to perfect Meta Knight's holy grail combo. I understand that this is something that even other experienced Meta Knight players have difficulty with, and it is something that requires dedication and training to become absolutely adept with. Then there's the fact that people have conflicting opinions on Meta Knight's own abilities (i.e. is his neutral good or bad? Is the holy grail combo a cheap exploit or a brilliant revelation?), exacerbated by the fact that there is still just a handful of very good Meta Knight players out there representing the character and demonstrating to the public what he can do. It might be something to do with the fact that development of the Meta meta happens to be mostly done behind the scenes and discussed between Meta Knight players themselves, which, in our days of spectator viewing and results-driven frenzy, means that for most people it does not exist and Abadango et al have just used some kind of distinguished demon magic to kill people off the top at 40%. Meta Knight players know what they're talking about, because they study the Meta meta day in, day out and have dedicated themselves to pushing forward with new discoveries and exciting tech - something you can't just pick up and play and expect to do well with. In that sense, I can understand why Meta Knight players can get frustrated with non-Meta Knight players trying to vindicate their understanding of the character despite having no firsthand experience, since the efforts of the Meta Knight players is a constant project based on deep technical understanding, a desire for innovation and an abiding interest in playing the character. In a nutshell: the Meta Knight meta is serious business, and woe betide ye who disrespect the understanding these guys have of the character and the effort it takes to do what they do.

Of course, everything I've just said has been written from the perspective of a non-Meta Knight player, so I might be totally off in my definition. I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say in response, since I know I am quite guilty of shifting the topic of conversation to my own main whenever I get the opportunity to do just that.
Either way, this was still a very informative read.
 

Wintropy

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I dare people to count the amount of times the word "meta" was used in this post.
I find it's more dignified than typing "MK". ;3

Like I said earlier, the difficulty in using Meta Knight is not just in the execution of his combos but how his reward greatly suffers if they fail. He can't exactly play the footsie game for damage against most characters like Ryu can when there's no opportunity to combo, he has to be even more vigilant and wily to find those openings and score his damage or kills.
Exactly, but it's difficult to understand that from simple observation. When you watch people that have studied the character to within frame-perfect execution of his intricate combo game, it seems easy. It doesn't become totally evident that it's exceptionally difficult in execution if you haven't tried it yourself.

A good player will make a character seem natural or even effortless to play, but that player knows that it isn't easy and requires consistent dedication to get it right. I watch Ryu players get u-tilt -> TSRK confirms without breaking a sweat and it seems to be child's play, then I try it myself and my hands get cramped before I even pull off one Shoryu. With a character that's based on technical precision and in-depth understanding of their idiosyncratic meta gameplay, observation or even experience by opposition doesn't really have the same integrity as firsthand experience.
 

Vyrnx

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So I wanna make a post about:4jigglypuff:...

When this game came out I really wanted to main Jiggs. I devoted a lot of time to her for a couple months before eventually switching over to Zelda and Samus, and then eventually just Samus / occasionally some others. In other words I've been all over bottom tier. Sometimes I would be drawn back to Zelda because she's a really enjoyable character to be honest--emphasis on fundamentals after playing such a strict, weird character like Samus is refreshing. But I had pretty much abandoned Puff.

I decided a couple months ago that I would pick Puff back up and for two months I would put a lot of time into her and try to judge her fairly, or give her another chance. I read guides, labbed, and played as her a lot, so she is now my second most used character. Somehow I managed to get through the two months without throwing my Wii U at the wall.

:4jigglypuff: is garbage.

I'm so utterly convinced now that she is the worst character in the game that I don't think anyone could hope to convince me otherwise. Zelda makes her look bad, and Zelda is pretty bad.

If Puff is gasping for air in the meta now, then in a few months she will be even more obsolete than she already is. We all know the reasons why of course, I don't need to be the five thousandth person to state them. But occasionally I see posts that say that she has things going for her. She has nothing going for her. I mean this almost literally. There is no aspect of her gameplay bar escaping combos and edge guarding that I would say is above average. But then she has so many things going against her. And yes, the biggest is her weight (among many, many other things). Some people just want to forget that this problem exists entirely.

I have read posts where people say this character is high mid tier. What? More commonly I see low mid tier. Either way, there's no way. Calling her just low tier is kind of ridiculous. She is so bottom tier she stretches the entire tier list farther down.

I really went in with a slightly positive attitude from when I played as her after I started SSB4 over a year ago, but wow. How could I have ever thought she was decent? This was strongly worded, but that's because I've been reading posts today about how she is mid tier (ridiculous) or not the worst character (less ridiculous), and I feel like I've had time to form an opinion of her.
 
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meleebrawler

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Jigglypuff's weight is so understated that I seriously caught someone say Mewtwo was the lightest character a while ago.
You can't go two seconds talking about Mewtwo without mentioning that weight, yet for Jigglypuff it's a given at worst.

It's because unlike Mewtwo she is tiny and her being floatier bounces her out of combos giving the illusion of better survivability. Indeed if your goal is strictly not dying, Jigglypuff could likely dodge you all day.

Oh and Mewtwo stole her wall of pain too.
 
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Jamurai

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I think he was being figurative in his expression.

Either way, while it definitely helps to have firsthand experience with the character you're discussing, you don't have to "main" the character to provide productive insights. I don't think @TriTails plays Pit in any meaningful capacity, yet he perfectly described Pit's off-stage game, even more concisely than I'd have done. Sometimes you can get equally good insights by fighting the character rather than playing them directly. It definitely offers a different perspective than you might be used to just from controlling the character yourself.

It's a fine line between just discussing your own character and talking about something you know nothing about. Neither extreme is very helpful. On the one hand, you can have discussions based on one-dimensional experience with a certain character and nothing else; on the other hand, the discussion can be misinformed theorycraft that has no basis in reality. You have to have some cogent knowledge of the character to engage in a proper, productive conversation, you can't just make up statistics out of thin air with no prior experience and maintain it's de facto truth; yet short of "maining" every character in the roster, you can't expect knowledge to be disseminated based on the criteria that, if you don't play the character, you don't know the character.

This is relevant to Meta Knight for one simple reason, and that reason is the fact that Meta Knight is a very easily misunderstood character. This is a character that was initially considered unviable trash due to weird hitbox placement and no reliable combo game, yet who became a tournament-viable threat over the course of a couple of balance patches. To the casual observer, this seems to have happened overnight: until the likes of (initially) Leo and (currently) Abadango began taking games off of big-name players at relevant tourneys, most people with a passing interest in the tournament scene wrote off Meta Knight as a flash in the pan and nothing more. Now that Meta Knight has become something of a vogue trend in recent times, with people frequently citing him as a potential candidate for top tier and vague whisperings that he might have an even matchup with Sheik (disclaimer: I am not saying he does or does not), you have people suddenly taking an interest in what he can do and chattering about why he's suddenly become a relevant character in the meta. This will naturally begin a process of people trying to hop on the bandwagon and yield the same success that these top Meta Knight players have, near-invariably with no success; this then has the contingent side-effect of convincing a vocal minority that Meta Knight is just (to purloin the popular parlance) a "fraud" and that top players just rely on cheese and easy-bake combos to succeed. This is both unfortunately misinformed and potentially detrimental to greater understanding of the Meta Knight...meta. Then you have the inevitable few pessimists who still have a sour taste in their mouths from Brawl and think Meta Knight players want to exploit Smash 4 in the same way, just ride the galactic crusdader's midnight coattails to an easy victory.

The truth, as I understand it, is that this is not the case and people have greatly misinterpreted the character's inherent ease of use. Amadeus9 Amadeus9 pointed it out a few minutes back: Abadango didn't just pick up Meta Knight one day and decide he was going to win tourneys with him, he practiced very hard behind the scenes and is still trying to perfect Meta Knight's holy grail combo. I understand that this is something that even other experienced Meta Knight players have difficulty with, and it is something that requires dedication and training to become absolutely adept with. Then there's the fact that people have conflicting opinions on Meta Knight's own abilities (i.e. is his neutral good or bad? Is the holy grail combo a cheap exploit or a brilliant revelation?), exacerbated by the fact that there is still just a handful of very good Meta Knight players out there representing the character and demonstrating to the public what he can do. It might be something to do with the fact that development of the Meta meta happens to be mostly done behind the scenes and discussed between Meta Knight players themselves, which, in our days of spectator viewing and results-driven frenzy, means that for most people it does not exist and Abadango et al have just used some kind of distinguished demon magic to kill people off the top at 40%. Meta Knight players know what they're talking about, because they study the Meta meta day in, day out and have dedicated themselves to pushing forward with new discoveries and exciting tech - something you can't just pick up and play and expect to do well with. In that sense, I can understand why Meta Knight players can get frustrated with non-Meta Knight players trying to vindicate their understanding of the character despite having no firsthand experience, since the efforts of the Meta Knight players is a constant project based on deep technical understanding, a desire for innovation and an abiding interest in playing the character. In a nutshell: the Meta Knight meta is serious business, and woe betide ye who disrespect the understanding these guys have of the character and the effort it takes to do what they do.

Of course, everything I've just said has been written from the perspective of a non-Meta Knight player, so I might be totally off in my definition. I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say in response, since I know I am quite guilty of shifting the topic of conversation to my own main whenever I get the opportunity to do just that.
This makes a lot of sense, nice post.

I think MK is misunderstood in a similar way to a few other characters in that he is rarely played and people try them out, make a quick judgement and then spout stuff about them which spreads like wildfire when people have discussions about said character. For example, the concept that MK's neutral is gutter trash and predictable, or that he has trouble killing. Both of these things you learn to not be true when you dedicate time to the character; as I said earlier MK has an excellent ground game and can mix up fairly well, and he actually has a lot of setups which are not immediately obvious from playing around with the character. An example for another character would be that Mii Swordfighter is complete rubbish and can't kill for peanuts (neither of which are true). I'm sure there are many other/better examples but I can't think of them right now.

(Also, just pointing out that it was me who talked about Abadango. :p)
 
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Ikes

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Nothing in Top 16, despite DKWill getting 7th at Super Smash Con, 4th at SKTAR 4, 9th at Smash the record, and 9th at Ibuypower?
werent most of these in customs?
So I wanna make a post about:4jigglypuff:...

When this game came out I really wanted to main Jiggs. I devoted a lot of time to her for a couple months before eventually switching over to Zelda and Samus, and then eventually just Samus / occasionally some others. In other words I've been all over bottom tier. Sometimes I would be drawn back to Zelda because she's a really enjoyable character to be honest--emphasis on fundamentals after playing such a strict, weird character like Samus is refreshing. But I had pretty much abandoned Puff.

I decided that for two months I would put a lot of time into Puff and try to judge her fairly, or give her another chance. I read guides, labbed, and played as her a lot, so she is now my second most used character. Well, somehow I managed to get through the two months without throwing my Wii U at the wall.

:4jigglypuff: is garbage.

I'm so utterly convinced now that she is the worst character in the game that I don't think anyone could hope to convince me otherwise. Zelda makes her look bad, and Zelda is pretty bad.

If Puff is gasping for air in the meta now, then in a few months she will be even more obsolete than she already is. We all know the reasons why of course, I don't need to be the five thousandth person to state them. But occasionally I see posts that say that she has things going for her. She has nothing going for her. I mean this almost literally. There is no aspect of her gameplay bar escaping combos and recovering that I would say is above average. But then she has so many things going against her. And yes, the biggest is her weight (among many, many other things). Some people just want to forget that this problem exists entirely.

I have read posts where people say character is high mid tier. What? More commonly I see low mid tier. Either way, there's no way. Calling her just low tier is kind of ridiculous. She is so bottom tier she stretches the entire tier list farther down.

I really went in with a slightly positive attitude from when I played as her after I started SSB4 over a year ago, but wow. How could I have ever thought she was decent? This was strongly worded, but that's because I've been reading posts today about how she is mid tier (ridiculous) or not the worst character (less ridiculous), and I feel like I've had time to form an opinion of her.
Didn't Hbox drop jiggs for wario because wario is more like melee jiggs and jiggs is just THAT terrible?
 
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saur_ssb

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werent most of these in customs?


Didn't Hbox drop jiggs for wario because wario is more like melee jiggs and jiggs is just THAT terrible?
He was playing Mario last time he was playing smash 4.

He thinks Jiggs is one of the worst characters in the game and who could blame him?

Real question. What reasons, beside liking Jigglypuff, would anyone want to play Jigglypuff? We all know the bad, but what about the good?
 

Dre89

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Nothing in Top 16, despite DKWill getting 7th at Super Smash Con, 4th at SKTAR 4, 9th at Smash the record, and 9th at Ibuypower?
I remember there being a tourney where Will got 5th and M2K got 7th as DK. Pretty sure Will beat Mr. R once too. Those definitely won't customs.

Regular upb is much better than custom upb if you know the character so it doesn't matter much anyway.

People were getting results with mid tiers back in Brawl. So the idea that someone considered high by many tier can't get results in a much more balanced game is a complete joke.

I mean, the theory got proved wrong back in the Brawl days. People still don't understand how much fundamentals matter in Smash relative to other factors.
 
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adom4

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Don't think Jigglypuff could ever get any reasonable buffs to make her work in Smash 4. If she's not the worst character she's the most doomed, to be honest.
Yeah, i feel like you can't make her good without making her kind of stupid, the engine & mechanics really screw her over.
 

Amadeus9

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Mk is a strange beast. On one hand, he can kill you earlier than any other fighter, on the other he's got one of the hardest to play neutrals in the game. Not to mention the fact that most mks will get tilted if they drop a combo or are completely unable to create an opportunity for one in the first place. Playing this fighter against competent opponents is very draining. Don't get me wrong, you never feel helpless, but you definitely feel like you have to work very, very hard. It's why I think playing MK against someone with the same skill as you, and losing, is one of the most demoralizing things in this game. You can work so much harder than your opponent, and little mistakes here and there mean that you never get your combo that puts you at an advantage (or in the case of the sheik and zss matchups, even out your struggle).

Also, what you said about mk info being basically exclusive to mk mains... it's true, we're a secretive bunch. We've had so many issues with the information being available and that leading to complaints about our combos being broken that we decided keeping alot of the info hidden would be best for now. People see the numbers and think, op op op, but they aren't seeing the full picture.

And ye, mk requires a ton of work to play. Work in the lab, and work in a match. I've labbed combos on every fighter in the game, in training mode and in cpu matches and against live opponents. Actually all of us have. You don't play mk successfully against people of the same skill level as you without doing so.

After dumping a couple hundred hours into the lab... and then seeing "mk is easy cheese, needs to be nerfed", it makes us understandably upset.

So yeah, at least for now while we're still being secretive (which might not last much longer, a handful of mk mains are working on tutorials and stuff that detail mk's game plan visually), don't trust anything a non mk main says about mk. You can trust your own opinion of him after you've played him a bit... haha
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I fought a Jigglypuff once in tournament. After I got the first kill, he went for a very bold Rest that didn't hit... and left him sleeping near the ledge. I used the windbox from recalling Luma to push Jigglypuff off-stage, and this took his second stock at 0%. The rest of the match was basically a demonstration of how high priority Rosalina's up smash is, but that moment at the end remains one of my favorites from this game so far.

I'm pretty sure Jigglypuff is bottom 5 at this point. About half of the character's moveset is filled with not viable moves, and that's a big problem to start as it makes Jigglypuff super predictable. Jigglypuff's predictability is compounded by its grounded mobility being almost as bad as Robin's without having viable grounded attacks like Robin has; you don't have to guess what movement strategy Jigglypuff will use since only one is vaguely workable. Jigglypuff's aerials are really not that high of priority; it's not hard to stuff its approaches at all. When Jigglypuff does hit, the reward doesn't tend to be very high; Jigglypuff has no real combos/follow-ups and can easily struggle to finish stocks without resorting to Rest which is often punishable by a smash upon killing the opponent. Even the gimp game is underwhelming since Jigglypuff cannot change heights very quickly nor can Jigglypuff cross the stage quickly if the initial hit off-stage doesn't happen near the edge; there's a lot of counterplay to a Jigglypuff trying to gimp you versus what you have to deal with when good characters like Sheik, Sonic, or Villager go for their traps. Due to the changes to rising Pound versus previous games, Jigglypuff actually has a relatively gimpable recovery in the game; if you hit Jigglypuff low, the character is in a legitimate crisis. I am still in the camp that weight doesn't really matter; Jigglypuff escapes combos and chases better than anyone else which negates a lot of the survivability downsides of being light. The problem is that you don't have particularly good things to be doing while you're living about as long as everyone else...

I do think Jigglypuff could easily be buffed; she basically needs a "greatest hits" of all of her moves from various smash games. Give her the fsmash/usmash/utilt/dash attack from Melee, fair/Pound/Rollout from Brawl, and keep this game's version of bair/dair/dsmash. Nair and uair can kinda come from wherever as they're similarly good in all games, maybe find some way to make ftilt/dtilt/jab a little less useless than they've been in every game, and Rest should probably stay this game's version because Melee Rest is a really dumb move that would ruin this game if it existed in it. If you put all of that together, Jigglypuff could actually do a lot of stuff. Even if they don't do all that, Jigglypuff is really just waiting for a buff, and it could definitely help. It's easy to see why the powerhouses Zelda and DDD are not getting many buffs despite being clearly very low on the tier list; the team fears them dominating lower level or non-singles gameplay. Jigglypuff as she stands is really bad at all skill levels with all numbers of players; I think her buff is just a question of when and not if.
 

Mr. ShinyUmbreon

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don't trust anything a non mk main says about mk. You can trust your own opinion of him after you've played him a bit... haha
To be fair though, not to discredit you, but can't that apply to all characters? Wintropy Wintropy brought up earlier how hellish it is to pull off combos with Ryu. While Meta Knight and Ryu are among the most difficult in the cast to play, (And possibly THE most difficult in the cast to play) doesn't the majority of the cast require a lot of time and effort to lay to their fullest potential? Aside from maybe like, the mario bros or something.
As for jigglypuff... *cue the strings*. I feel like this fighter has such little going for her that aside for character bias, there's little reason to actually use that character. At least Dedede, Samus, Zelda, Bowser,Lucina, etc. have something that they can do to make them look good, but Jiggs has what? She can escape combos, edgegaurd and? Nothing, she has few combos of her own, so it just makes the match go on forever. And killing options? Aside from rest, WHICH HAS NO SETUPS, Jiggs has no reliable on stage kill moves.
Overall, Jigglypuff is the worst character in the game, no contest.
 
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Smog Frog

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:4jigglypuff: is more a complete dearth of any great qualities than it is being terrible
:4zelda: is one half terrible one half "this is okay"

i don't think she is the worst. she's bad but she's not the worst.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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The main way to land default Rest is to SDI out of would-be combos and do it to punish the opponent continuing to hit buttons. It's frame one invincible and hits on frame 2 so it's not really very hard to hit with in that situation, and if your opponent plays in a way to never allow that, you've taken a lot of their options off the table. Rest is honestly a really good move; it's just a shame that what amounts to the best counter in the game is on a character who can't put forward enough offense to force the opponent off careful play.

Leaping Rest can be used more offensively; you can go for it on reads in 50-50 juggle situations and get really early kills. Just don't be wrong or your stock is gone, but having the option to go all in when your opponent is in a tight spot that otherwise Jigglypuff has no real way to convert to a kill is pretty cool. Again, this would be a more meaningful option if Jigglypuff's general offense put opponents into high pressure juggles more often.

Wakie Wakie, of course, has essentially no utility. I only mention it because it does exist and is technically a form of Rest. I think the choice between the other two is really interesting, and at a high level, I think both would be really meaningful things in this game if Jigglypuff had enough else going for her to create the situations where those options could really swing games.
 

Mr. ShinyUmbreon

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:4jigglypuff: is more a complete dearth of any great qualities than it is being terrible
:4zelda: is one half terrible one half "this is okay"

i don't think she is the worst. she's bad but she's not the worst.
So... what? HOW is she not the worst? What you just said can be applied against that argument, you just said Jigglypuff has nothing going for her but Zelda at least has something. Which, is right.
 

Ikes

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Who does Wario hard counter that's important? I'm rusty on his matchup knowledge. I can imagine Jiggs since he does everything she does but better and can pretty much stuff any jiggs approach with chomp.

Dedede would probably be a cakewalk MU since D3 is so slow on the ground and in the air, and has such trash frame data that anything D3 tries to throw out can be stuffed. Wario doesnt have to worry about gordos since most of his moves are fast enough to toss em back and he has the mobility specs to get around them easy, as well as bike having super(?) armor within the first few frames (not sure if it's super or heavy armor but I've never had it stuffed so im inclined to think it's super). D3 doesn't have a good approach and thus is forced to play defensively and Wario pretty much demolishes dedicated defensive playstyles.

Neither Jiggs nor D3 are important MUs though since he'll probably never find them anywhere outside pools in tournament.

Maybe Olimar is a good MU? since olimar only has above average frame data and very small disjoint, as well as dying pretty early where Wario can already net early KOs. a good handful of Wario's moves have the hitboxes to shed Pikmin easy without putting him i na bad position to get punished (nair, fair, bike situationally). I feel like the biggest thing Wario has to worry about here is blue(?) pikmin uthrow, but even then being a heavy means he doesnt get KO'd from that as early as most characters.

Does he hard counter Rosa? or is it just a soft counter? obviously rosa would have tons of trouble keeping up with and catching Wario and her huge hitbox x light weight makes her food for pretty much all his best options, but IDK if that would be enough to call it a hard counter

maybe I'll dust off the ol' wario boards again, it's been too long.

Also, side note, since its been a while since we've seen Dabuz' Olimar and that hype is long since gone, where do we feel he sits in the tiers?


Nevermind, I don't wanna see the Wario matchup discussion, they seem to think he's as bad as eventhubs makes him out to be
 
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A2ZOMG

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Don't think Jigglypuff could ever get any reasonable buffs to make her work in Smash 4. If she's not the worst character she's the most doomed, to be honest.
Increased duration on D-smash would be one of the better buffs she could be given that would keep her unique and have a fairly low chance of explicitly making her super polarizing, given that move actually kills ledge snaps if timed well. It would compliment her already decent ability to edgeguard imo.

And there's a lot of bad ways to buff the character that imo will quickly remind people why we don't want this character to be too good. Note that a big reason for the drop in Jigglypuff's viability is in fact largely mechanics differences which made it easier for her to lame people out in other games.
 
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Amadeus9

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To be fair though, not to discredit you, but can't that apply to all characters? Wintropy Wintropy brought up earlier how hellish it is to pull off combos with Ryu. While Meta Knight and Ryu are among the most difficult in the cast to play, (And possibly THE most difficult in the cast to play) doesn't the majority of the cast require a lot of time and effort to lay to their fullest potential? Aside from maybe like, the mario bros or something.
As for jigglypuff... *cue the strings*. I feel like this fighter has such little going for her that aside for character bias, there's little reason to actually use that character. At least Dedede, Samus, Zelda, Bowser,Lucina, etc. have something that they can do to make them look good, but Jiggs has what? She can escape combos, edgegaurd and? Nothing, she has few combos of her own, so it just makes the match go on forever. And killing options? Aside from rest, WHICH HAS NO SETUPS, Jiggs has no reliable on stage kill moves.
Overall, Jigglypuff is the worst character in the game, no contest.
The difference is when someone talks about mk it will almost always be about him being easy or having op combos. Even if some one is mostly uninformed about ryu, everyone knows his main strength is his ridiculous ability to play footsies and convert a weak hit into a really strong one. And I rarely hear that being called easy or op! So it's more just about being choosy about what you listen to...
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Increased duration on D-smash would be one of the better buffs she could be given that would keep her unique and have a fairly low chance of explicitly making her super polarizing, given that move actually kills ledge snaps if timed well. It would compliment her already decent ability to edgeguard imo.

And there's a lot of bad ways to buff the character that imo will quickly remind people why we don't want this character to be too good. Note that a big reason for the drop in Jigglypuff's viability is in fact largely mechanics differences which made it easier for her to lame people out in other games.
With ledges no longer being fortresses and airdodges having landing lag, I think Jigglypuff style lame-outs are harder in this game than they've been in any other smash game. If you try to just jump around and play evasively, you either get landing trapped, ledge trapped, or stuck way up there having to figure out how to get down safely with Jigglypuff's fall speed. What style of lame-out do you envision someone like puff being able to pull off?
 
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Mr. ShinyUmbreon

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The main way to land default Rest is to SDI out of would-be combos and do it to punish the opponent continuing to hit buttons. It's frame one invincible and hits on frame 2 so it's not really very hard to hit with in that situation, and if your opponent plays in a way to never allow that, you've taken a lot of their options off the table. Rest is honestly a really good move; it's just a shame that what amounts to the best counter in the game is on a character who can't put forward enough offense to force the opponent off careful play.

Leaping Rest can be used more offensively; you can go for it on reads in 50-50 juggle situations and get really early kills. Just don't be wrong or your stock is gone, but having the option to go all in when your opponent is in a tight spot that otherwise Jigglypuff has no real way to convert to a kill is pretty cool. Again, this would be a more meaningful option if Jigglypuff's general offense put opponents into high pressure juggles more often.

Wakie Wakie, of course, has essentially no utility. I only mention it because it does exist and is technically a form of Rest. I think the choice between the other two is really interesting, and at a high level, I think both would be really meaningful things in this game if Jigglypuff had enough else going for her to create the situations where those options could really swing games.
Jiggs still doesn't have any set-ups. Even if it kills in one hit, you have to make a ballsy prediction, or punish a really laggy move. Customs for the most part aren't relevant anymore.
Also, side note, since its been a while since we've seen Dabuz' Olimar and that hype is long since gone, where do we feel he sits in the tiers?
Not sure, he could be a gem that doesn't get used in tourneys all that much. As for now, I'd say he's High mid-tier with Pit and Greninja, seing how they're kind of in the same situation as Olimar. But if he get's more results, I think he could be high tier. His frame data is pretty good. He's very different compared to the other fighters.


The difference is when someone talks about mk it will almost always be about him being easy or having op combos. Even if some one is mostly uninformed about ryu, everyone knows his main strength is his ridiculous ability to play footsies and convert a weak hit into a really strong one. And I rarely hear that being called easy or op! So it's more just about being choosy about what you listen to...
I see your point, I would be pissed if someone said my main was easy to play when I spend hours into getting good with my character. And since Ryu gets more exposure as being difficult to play, he's become famous for being difficult. But since meta knight doesn't get seen as much, let alone PLAYED as much, it's easy to be misinformed about him. To quote IHE: "Most people are uninformed idiots".
 
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LancerStaff

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I fought a Jigglypuff once in tournament. After I got the first kill, he went for a very bold Rest that didn't hit... and left him sleeping near the ledge. I used the windbox from recalling Luma to push Jigglypuff off-stage, and this took his second stock at 0%. The rest of the match was basically a demonstration of how high priority Rosalina's up smash is, but that moment at the end remains one of my favorites from this game so far.
Lol, I think all of us with characters with decent windboxes know this feeling.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Jiggs still doesn't have any set-ups. Even if it kills in one hit, you have to make a ballsy prediction, or punish a really laggy move. Customs for the most part aren't relevant anymore.

Not sure, he could be a gem that doesn't get used in tourneys all that much. As for now, I'd say he's High mid-tier with Pit and Greninja, seing how they're kind of in the same situation as Olimar. But if he get's more results, I think he could be high tier. His frame data is pretty good. He's very different compared to the other fighters.
I don't get why you're talking about setting up Rest; does Marth set up Counter? You can Rest jab combos; you aren't punishing anything too laggy. Like I said and will now repeat, SDI out of would-be combos and punish. Rest is frame one invincible and hits on frame two. It just stuffs everything short of Little Mac Rising Uppercut. That's the point of the move, and it's very useful and practical. Looking for set-ups is just trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

Customs are the game I play; I'm not going to pretend they don't exist. Also if we're being real, Jigglypuff is less relevant than custom moves; you'll have an easier time finding a tournament that allows customs than you will finding a tournament at which Jigglypuff secures a relevant placement. It doesn't make sense to me to discuss the utility of Rest without also exploring alternate options.
 

Big-Cat

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but WHY would you pick up DK when top tiers are almost entirely better?

not to **** on anyones main but if your motive is anything but to advance a character's meta, 90% of the time you're just weighing yourself down if they're not very high or top
Because they're no good with those top tiers maybe? I can hardly play the top tiers beyond a certain level.
 

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Because they're no good with those top tiers maybe? I can hardly play the top tiers beyond a certain level.
This is the exact reason people want widely viable rosters (I think we have a VERY well-rounded roster, just not all solo viable.)

When a character clicks or feels right and is ALSO good, it's such a great feeling. You also perform better if you're comfortable with said character. Sure you can adapt but there's always a character that comes naturally and people like them to be good as a bonus.

Basically preference. The top tiers also might feel unwieldly, as stated above. I can't use Fox or Sheik very well, for instance.
 
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Vyrnx

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:4jigglypuff: is more a complete dearth of any great qualities than it is being terrible
:4zelda: is one half terrible one half "this is okay"

i don't think she is the worst. she's bad but she's not the worst.
No, unfortunately I really think Jiggs is the worst. It's not just a lack of good qualities. The combination of ultra light and trouble killing is one of the worst combinations there is. I say trouble killing because her viable kill moves are slow and easily beaten by shield. This means that Jiggs mediocre damage racking will eventually accumulate to the point where the opponent's rage will cause them to kill Jiggs at 70% with, idk, ZSS's utilt. The opponent can gain a stock lead at any time past 90% (sometimes earlier) and then Jiggs bad kill potential will mean she has major trouble getting back in the match. I also think Jiggs has some of the most truly awful, polarized match ups that exist between any two characters, such as Jiggs:Olimar.

Not gonna go much more in depth because people here know her issues already and I don't want to make a big post about it. When I picked up Jiggs again I was honestly expecting I would have a reaction like, "untapped potential," or something. But as it stands now Jiggs is at the bottom and has no where to go but down unless she starts getting buffs.
 
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Mr. ShinyUmbreon

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I don't get why you're talking about setting up Rest; does Marth set up Counter?
Because the move is extremely powerful, but also really risky even if you're punishing a move. If you try to use it, there's a chance your opponent will lose the stock. But if not you're going to be in F-Smash city, and when you're the lightest character in the game, it's a guaranteed kill. Also using Marth's counter as a powerful move with no set-ups is a pretty lousy example, because Marth is different, he has on-stage kill-moves and he has a kill set-up with Jab-Fsmash.
You can Rest jab combos; you aren't punishing anything too laggy. Like I said and will now repeat, SDI out of would-be combos and punish. Rest is frame one invincible and hits on frame two. It just stuffs everything short of Little Mac Rising Uppercut. That's the point of the move, and it's very useful and practical. Looking for set-ups is just trying to force a round peg into a square hole.
Do I need to go for combos against Jiggs? With how early she dies you can just Zone and/or space her out for the entire match (out-lame her, to quote ZeRo)
Customs are the game I play; I'm not going to pretend they don't exist. Also if we're being real, Jigglypuff is less relevant than custom moves; you'll have an easier time finding a tournament that allows customs than you will finding a tournament at which Jigglypuff secures a relevant placement.
Hahahaha, true.
It doesn't make sense to me to discuss the utility of Rest without also exploring alternate options.
Fair point, but even if there's a way to punish something that really doesn't even need to be done against that character, it still doesn't make her good.
 
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williamsga555

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Wario is generally considered bad for Dedede, but recently three of our best reps have placed it as even or better, so it's a bit contested at the moment.

I think it's awful because I can't imagine many other characters that can camp us out as hard as Wario can. Dedede has incredibly limited options for dealing with proper bike camping, and Wario's aerial mobility and solid recovery makes it hard for us to press our advantage while we have it. In addition, his small frame really hinders us using SH bair as a walling tactic, he covers our ledge getups absurdly well, and our vastly superior range doesn't mean much when mobility and frame data is as skewed in Wario's favor as it is.

On the plus, Wario does actually struggle to finish us off sans waft. Our multijumps help us escape a lot of his aerial juggles. F tilt does wonders as an anti-air for Wario's usual approaches, but we eat a free punish if he baits it out. As mentioned earlier, we have an absurd reach advantage over him, but obviously that doesn't account for much when his weaving is so good.

Honestly, I think it's quietly one of our hardest matchups, but people in our community who are far better than I am have expressed otherwise, so I'd like to hear from them as well.
 

A2ZOMG

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With ledges no longer being fortresses and airdodges having landing lag, I think Jigglypuff style lame-outs are harder in this game than they've been in any other smash game. If you try to just jump around and play evasively, you either get landing trapped, ledge trapped, or stuck way up there having to figure out how to get down safely with Jigglypuff's fall speed. What style of lame-out do you envision someone like puff being able to pull off?
Safety buffs of any kind, especially landing lag buffs, would make Jigglypuff leagues less fun to play against for instance. She might not be timing people out strictly, per say, but the incentive to interact with her would become increasingly less compelling as her safety goes up. Note that with Jigglypuff's air mobility, a lot of characters depend on pretty non-trivial reads or can't really pressure her landing that well.

It's a big reason why so many hate Sonic, for instance. Jiggs might not have superb fall speed options but her air mobility requires pretty significant commitment to land trap in most cases.
 
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Ikes

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Wario is generally considered bad for Dedede, but recently three of our best reps have placed it as even or better, so it's a bit contested at the moment.

I think it's awful because I can't imagine many other characters that can camp us out as hard as Wario can. Dedede has incredibly limited options for dealing with proper bike camping, and Wario's aerial mobility and solid recovery makes it hard for us to press our advantage while we have it. In addition, his small frame really hinders us using SH bair as a walling tactic, he covers our ledge getups absurdly well, and our vastly superior range doesn't mean much when mobility and frame data is as skewed in Wario's favor as it is.

On the plus, Wario does actually struggle to finish us off sans waft. Our multijumps help us escape a lot of his aerial juggles. F tilt does wonders as an anti-air for Wario's usual approaches, but we eat a free punish if he baits it out. As mentioned earlier, we have an absurd reach advantage over him, but obviously that doesn't account for much when his weaving is so good.

Honestly, I think it's quietly one of our hardest matchups, but people in our community who are far better than I am have expressed otherwise, so I'd like to hear from them as well.
Got any sets of dedede vs wario with reflex, jeepysol, or abadango? I'd like to analyze one of those.
 

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On the Jigglypuff discussion, I think that her unique instant death shield break mechanic is an unnecessary detriment, and she would be a bit better off without it.
 

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On the Jigglypuff discussion, I think that her unique instant death shield break mechanic is an unnecessary detriment, and she would be a bit better off without it.
Jigglypuff barely shields at all as she rarely stays in the ground for long. Also, insta-shieldbreak moves are basically gone, and if Jigglypuff ever has any sort of lowered shield, she will camp until it's replenished.
:196:
 

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Yea, her shield mechanics don't help but even if sheik had that issue she'd still be the best. It's a very minor issue, especially on the lightest character in the game.
 

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Jiggly puff seems to have a decent neutral with her aerials, just not the reward to make it legit. If pound moved further and had less lag, and if she had grab combos ( more grab combos :mad::mad::mad::mad:) that lead into different aerials and even pound, she would jump tiers real quick
 

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As someone who doesn't really see or use Jigglypuff much I must ask, is her Bair truly THAT bad?
I remember it had decent range and power.
:196:
 

Pyr

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As someone who doesn't really see or use Jigglypuff much I must ask, is her Bair truly THAT bad?
I remember it had decent range and power.
:196:
Bair is amazing. Decent range (1 and a half Puffs from puff herself), safe on shield (in my experience, if done retreating), kills at 125% from the center of FD against Mario with no DI and kills under 100% from the very edge of FD (Mario without DI), all without Rage taken into affect. Frame 12, which isn't horrible considering Peach's Fair is what it is.

Really good move on a character with everything else against her.
 
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