Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[~ Gheb ~]

In other news, Link made it into a top 5 in the European tournament Eclipse, Toon Link made it into top 8. Christian Johnston (Ryu/Link) and Snasen (Toon Link) made it into 5 and 8 respectively. But to see Link in a top 8 thing wouldn't be conceivable now, would it?

Where in Europe did that happen? I've never heard of these people.

 

[Rizen]

Link's made it to the top 8 lots of times. @Catana got 7th out of 128 recently.
http://smashboards.com/threads/link...read-25th-october.404196/page-4#post-20414387

PS I still think Link is at best lower mid tier.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm pretty confused why you think Meta Knight goes even with Sheik but loses to Mario. Everything Mario does to MK in this matchup, Sheik does better as far as I know. Can you elaborate further?

As I said, that's just my opinion, I don't have as much data because I haven't looked into the matchup as much. I'm not trying to argue empirically that MK loses to Mario as I am with MK vs Sheik being even.

Though it's too simplistic to just rate Mario as a worse Sheik.

 

[PND]

Ah, ok. I was looking at what I saw from the Ottawa PR list. I didn't really recognize anyone underneath top 6, but I guess Montreal doesn't travel en masse to Ontario too often?

Our top player, JPeds, had to miss the tournament for the most Canadian reason ever. . . Hockey practice.

 

[Amadeus9]

As I said, that's just my opinion, I don't have as much data because I haven't looked into the matchup as much. I'm not trying to argue empirically that MK loses to Mario as I am with MK vs Sheik being even.

Though it's too simplistic to just rate Mario as a worse Sheik.

The guy trying to judge a matchup off a handful of games at the top level is calling someone out on being simplistic. Rich.

If a Greninja beats a sheik does that mean the matchup is even?

Also you fail to consider the fact that smash scene in general is brimming with good sheiks to practice against. There's only like, 3 or 4 good meta knights total. The result? Good mks have lots of matchup knowledge in the sheik matchup, good sheiks have nothing. Or worse than nothing, because they've played against primarily MKs that aren't particularly good, and get a wrong sense of the matchup. You also have to consider that there are multiple different styles/approaches to playing mk/the matchup that drastically affect how you should counter play. A meta knight like Tyrant will focus on beating you at neutral until he wins, a meta knight like Leo or Abadango will play passively and make the one time they win neutral mean a lost stock.

You're just looking at this from a really, really shallow perspective.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The guy trying to judge a matchup off a handful of games at the top level is calling someone out on being simplistic. Rich.

If a Greninja beats a sheik does that mean the matchup is even?

Also you fail to consider the fact that smash scene in general is brimming with good sheiks to practice against. There's only like, 3 or 4 good meta knights total. The result? Good mks have lots of matchup knowledge in the sheik matchup, good sheiks have nothing. Or worse than nothing, because they've played against primarily MKs that aren't particularly good, and get a wrong sense of the matchup. You also have to consider that there are multiple different styles/approaches to playing mk/the matchup that drastically affect how you should counter play. A meta knight like Tyrant will focus on beating you at neutral until he wins, a meta knight like Leo or Abadango will play passively and make the one time they win neutral mean a lost stock.

You're just looking at this from a really, really shallow perspective.

Do you at least have anything to say about him thinking MK loses to Mario? I find that quite absurd.

 

[Amadeus9]

Do you at least have anything to say about him thinking MK loses to Mario? I find that quite absurd.

Slightly in Meta Knight's favor, 55-45 imo. This is one of the few matchups where Ftilt is actually a really good tool because Mario has almost no way to deal with it if he's approaching, he can't approach or he just gets spaced by ftilt. Another matchup that notably has this trait is MK vs Kirby. Only reason why I don't think this matchup is worse for Mario is that our weight class means he can do some nasty stuff to us if he gets in, but him being a medium faller means we do nasty stuff too, so really it just kind of evens out.

I hate saying that a defining point of a matchup is "range" but it really is in this case, you can literally perfect pivot/walk around and ftilt and Mario can't do a damn thing.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Slightly in Meta Knight's favor, 55-45 imo. This is one of the few matchups where Ftilt is actually a really good tool because Mario has almost no way to deal with it if he's approaching, he can't approach or he just gets spaced by ftilt. Another matchup that notably has this trait is MK vs Kirby. Only reason why I don't think this matchup is worse for Mario is that our weight class means he can do some nasty stuff to us if he gets in, but him being a medium faller means we do nasty stuff too, so really it just kind of evens out.

I hate saying that a defining point of a matchup is "range" but it really is in this case, you can literally perfect pivot around and ftilt and Mario can't do a damn thing.

Should also mention that MK can edgeguard Mario pretty well with moves like Nair (out prioritizes Up B), Fair, and Bair. Yeah, this is a hard one for the plumber.

 

[Amadeus9]

Should also mention that MK can edgeguard Mario pretty well with moves like Nair (out prioritizes Up B), Fair, and Bair. Yeah, this is a hard one for the plumber.

Mario is such a solid character overall that I can't see him losing worse than 55-45, but yeah I can see it being one of his harder matchups.

 

[InfinityDM]

Mario is such a solid character overall that I can't see him losing worse than 55-45, but yeah I can see it being one of his harder matchups.

Meta Knight is such an interesting character to me. What do you think his Ryu matchup is like? Furthermore, what do you consider to be his worst?

 

[Peppermint1201]

I've heard Sonic is really bad for MK but you'd have to ask someone who mains the character.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It wasn't. Regardless of the height of Gunner, Venom was able to take him from basically 0 to death percent with one well executed string, then up tilt shoryu for the finisher at 90.

Thems the Ryu life.

Ally also has learned the Ryu MU, he did much better vs Venom than he did vs Mr. R's Ryu sometime ago, he's putting a lot more down air in his game to stop focus attack shenanigans, it's working well.

Except Ryu can actually FA OUT OF THE FINAL HIT because Mario D-air doesn't actually true combo into the final hit.

 

[Radical Larry]

Rizen But why? If Link has the potential to make top 8, then why are people not exploring him further? Link has so much potential to get to the top 8 brackets, yet people do not try exploring him. It's unbelievable that people aren't really giving him a chance at it; people are giving Doctor Mario, who was considered around low to bottom tier range, a chance because of one tournament. Now Doctor Mario is considered mid-tier and people are experimenting more with him. But just, why not Link? If Link has the potential to make top 8, then surely he has something up his sleeve that people aren't digging at. I guess underrepresentation of Link will surely put him into the low tier brackets despite his amazing potential.

In my opinion, he's either a direct middle or an upper middle tier and I can explain why in quite an enormous post. But why do that when I can head to a large tournament?

 

[Big-Cat]

Simple: No one at the top level is pulling Link out.

 

[Pyr]

The question is, "What does Link do that other characters can't accomplish/can't do better? What does a combo of those attributes do for me compared to other characters' respective kits?"

I don't think it's better to use him over another character from a theory standpoint and, going by actual usage, I think a lot of people can agree.

That said, I'd like to see a massive post see your viewpoint.

Edit: On an off-topic, but alternative note: When I went to see what Link's top 16 placement was in Smashboards rankings thingy, I saw that Cloud has 16 top 16 placements already. 11 were from a single person at a single event it looks like.

http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-for-wii-u.8/league/teams

 

[A2ZOMG]

The question is, "What does Link do that other characters can't accomplish/can't do better? What does a combo of those attributes do for me compared to other characters' respective kits?"

I don't think it's better to use him over another character from a theory standpoint and, going by actual usage, I think a lot of people can agree.

That said, I'd like to see a massive post see your viewpoint.

Edit: On an off-topic, but alternative note: When I went to see what Link's top 16 placement was in Smashboards rankings thingy, I saw that Cloud has 16 top 16 placements already. 11 were from a single person at a single event it looks like.

http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-for-wii-u.8/league/teams

I dunno about you, but Link beats Rosalina, who is traditionally considered one of the hardest matchup for several very high tier characters. There's probably more high/top tier characters that Link does really well against with that in perspective.

Furthermore, he's one of few characters that not only has a highly rewarding grab game, he can force approaches, has ITEM TOSSING, can literally edgeguard any character in this game to death, has legitimate Jab cancel KO confirms, and some of the best frame data on shield in this game for characters with his level of disjointed hitboxes.

I think he's a very stupidly underrated character if anything. He's only not top tier because his disadvantage state is sorta bad (not Falcon level bad though), but his reward and control in neutral are legitimately kinda crazy.

Note that Nairo also won a major with ZSS, a character with no rising aerials and a tether grab. Link unlike ZSS has noticeably better edgeguards, a sword, Jab cancel KO confirms, and item tossing, and also is much heavier than ZSS and explicitly benefits very hugely from Rage.

 

[Amadeus9]

Meta Knight is such an interesting character to me. What do you think his Ryu matchup is like? Furthermore, what do you consider to be his worst?

Ryu is even or his favor imo. Not really any big evidence to support that, but he's just really scary. I don't want to die to tsrk. That, and also the fact that Metaknight's one biggest issue is a lack of options to deal with safe aerial shield pressure. ZSS nair, all of Ryu's aerials (lol) and to a lesser extent, Sheik's fair, are all very difficult for MK to punish on shield, our OOS options are pretty good but our fastest option comes out frame 7 (upb), so if you can shield stun us long enough or be able to throw out another move before the upb can come out then congrats, you get to hit MK's shield for free and there's not much we can do about it.

Worst matchup is ZSS. It used to be Sheik but shield changes reallyyyyy helped us in that matchup. Now as long as you try to perfect shield stuff, and at least barely miss, you get no extra shield stun outside of the normal shield lock frames, which doesn't sound like much but it really does matter. Now ZSS's nair is a thing, tho, in all it's ridiculousness.

I've heard Sonic is really bad for MK but you'd have to ask someone who mains the character.

Sonic used to be pretty much our worst matchup but he got the nerf hammer pretty hard, and we got some very meaningful buffs, now it's probably a slight advantage to him, 5545.

 

[Dre89]

The question is, "What does Link do that other characters can't accomplish/can't do better? What does a combo of those attributes do for me compared to other characters' respective kits?"

I don't think it's better to use him over another character from a theory standpoint and, going by actual usage, I think a lot of people can agree.

That said, I'd like to see a massive post see your viewpoint.

Edit: On an off-topic, but alternative note: When I went to see what Link's top 16 placement was in Smashboards rankings thingy, I saw that Cloud has 16 top 16 placements already. 11 were from a single person at a single event it looks like.

http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-for-wii-u.8/league/teams

That's a faulty analogy because characters like Tink Mega and Pac, all considered to be solid mids, tend to be made obsolete by Villager, who's just a better version of their archetype. Only time when they're possibly better picks than Villager is into other campers. Point is you wouldn't say these characters don't have anything to offer because of it.

Link has arguably the best CQC of all the dedicated campers. He's kind of a hybrid between a camper and a boxer-grappler. People tend not to think of him as the latter because sword and hook shot don't fit it thematically, but gameplay-wise he does.

He's arguably better against range-abusers like heavies and swordsman, because he can keep them out but unlike the others isn't afraid to scrap because he doesn't lose the CQC game.

 

[Ghostbone]

If a Greninja beats a sheik does that mean the matchup is even?

If multiple Greninjas consistently go even with or beat Sheiks of their level, yes.

You're just looking at this from a really, really shallow perspective.

I'm just being objective about it.

Except Ryu can actually FA OUT OF THE FINAL HIT because Mario D-air doesn't actually true combo into the final hit.

Only when Mario's at low %s

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I dunno about you, but Link beats Rosalina, who is traditionally considered one of the hardest matchup for several very high tier characters. There's probably more high/top tier characters that Link does really well against with that in perspective.

Furthermore, he's one of few characters that not only has a highly rewarding grab game, he can force approaches, has ITEM TOSSING, can literally edgeguard any character in this game to death, has legitimate Jab cancel KO confirms, and some of the best frame data on shield in this game for characters with his level of disjointed hitboxes.

I think he's a very stupidly underrated character if anything. He's only not top tier because his disadvantage state is sorta bad (not Falcon level bad though), but his reward and control in neutral are legitimately kinda crazy.

Note that Nairo also won a major with ZSS, a character with no rising aerials and a tether grab. Link unlike ZSS has noticeably better edgeguards, a sword, Jab cancel KO confirms, and item tossing, and also is much heavier than ZSS and explicitly benefits very hugely from Rage.

I was demolishing a Toon Link in friendlies earlier today, but I'm not sure how much he differs from Link in terms of basic gameplan. At the very least Link's larger disjoint would make life harder for Rosalina, but does he rely on Bomb/Boomerang setups like Toon Link does? If not, then I can see him having an advantage by virtue of not getting screwed by Gravitational Pull.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I was demolishing a Toon Link in friendlies earlier today, but I'm not sure how much he differs from Link in terms of basic gameplan. At the very least Link's larger disjoint would make life harder for Rosalina, but does he rely on Bomb/Boomerang setups like Toon Link does? If not, then I can see him having an advantage by virtue of not getting screwed by Gravitational Pull.

Bombslide is really threatening and lets Link get in even if Rosa grav pulls.

 

[Dre89]

I dunno about you, but Link beats Rosalina, who is traditionally considered one of the hardest matchup for several very high tier characters. There's probably more high/top tier characters that Link does really well against with that in perspective.

Furthermore, he's one of few characters that not only has a highly rewarding grab game, he can force approaches, has ITEM TOSSING, can literally edgeguard any character in this game to death, has legitimate Jab cancel KO confirms, and some of the best frame data on shield in this game for characters with his level of disjointed hitboxes.

I think he's a very stupidly underrated character if anything. He's only not top tier because his disadvantage state is sorta bad (not Falcon level bad though), but his reward and control in neutral are legitimately kinda crazy.

Note that Nairo also won a major with ZSS, a character with no rising aerials and a tether grab. Link unlike ZSS has noticeably better edgeguards, a sword, Jab cancel KO confirms, and item tossing, and also is much heavier than ZSS and explicitly benefits very hugely from Rage.

I think both Link and Bowser are massively underrated.

In Link's case it's because people just look at his projectiles and his mobility and find it underwhelming. They don't realise that most of his strength is in his normals. His nair and bair are good and his ground game is probably top 15.

His jab and tilts are so good, and people don't realise how stupid his grab is. They think it's bad it's because it's a tether, not realising that you as much as breathe and Link will punish it from half a stage away with a dash grab.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think both Link and Bowser are massively underrated.

In Link's case it's because people just look at his projectiles and his mobility and find it underwhelming. They don't realise that most of his strength is in his normals. His bair and bair are good and his ground game is probably top 15.

His jab and tilts are so good, and people don't realise how stupid his grab is. They think it's bad it's because it's a tether, not realising that you as much as breathe and Link will punish it from half a stage away with a dash grab.

Bowser doesn't have anywhere near Link's reward, and also has a disadvantage state that is arguably worse than Falcon's.

I don't think Bowser is underrated. He's a generic heavy with all the disadvantages of being huge, and almost none of the benefits of either winning extremely quickly off a few juggle reads or edgeguards, or forcing people to really guess to capitalize on his negative state. Bowser only has a somewhat decent neutral, but everything else about him is noticeably to severely below average.

Whereas with Link, most things about him are legitimately pretty good, outside of having a somewhat below average negative state.

 

[Antonykun]

I dunno about you, but Link beats Rosalina, who is traditionally considered one of the hardest matchup for several very high tier characters. There's probably more high/top tier characters that Link does really well against with that in perspective.

Furthermore, he's one of few characters that not only has a highly rewarding grab game, he can force approaches, has ITEM TOSSING, can literally edgeguard any character in this game to death, has legitimate Jab cancel KO confirms, and some of the best frame data on shield in this game for characters with his level of disjointed hitboxes.

I think he's a very stupidly underrated character if anything. He's only not top tier because his disadvantage state is sorta bad (not Falcon level bad though), but his reward and control in neutral are legitimately kinda crazy.

Note that Nairo also won a major with ZSS, a character with no rising aerials and a tether grab. Link unlike ZSS has noticeably better edgeguards, a sword, Jab cancel KO confirms, and item tossing, and also is much heavier than ZSS and explicitly benefits very hugely from Rage.

I think you are forgetting the most important quality of any character in Smash 4: Mobility.
Link is slow sure those projectiles help his effective range but most top tiers are just so mobile that they can dance around Link's Projectiles enough to not be overwhelmed

Let me just pull up a list of characters that are or were once considered to be top/high tier (proably missed someone)
(ib4 Gheb) (Lightweight/Super Speed)(Tiny + Mii Specials)

Now these are the ones who don't have a significantly high mobility in at least one important aspect


Luigi was a grab monster with the best overall frame data in the game
Luma is a sword with a Brawler's Frame data and absurd kill potential
Villager has a bunch of amazing buttons/mechanics in her favor like all her aerials and Lloid for example
Ness has a bunch of great buttons among one of the most frightening Punishes in the game

Mobility (and the best overall punish game in Smash) is the reason why Nairo can win a Major with Her despite Link having all those things you mentioned (though i disagree on the edgeguarding) and the reason why most people agree Toon>Link

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think you are forgetting the most important quality of any character in Smash 4: Mobility.
Link is slow sure those projectiles help his effective range but most top tiers are just so mobile that they can dance around Link's Projectiles enough to not be overwhelmed

Let me just pull up a list of characters that are or were once considered to be top/high tier (proably missed someone)
(ib4 Gheb) (Lightweight/Super Speed)(Tiny + Mii Specials)

Now these are the ones who don't have a significantly high mobility in at least one important aspect


Luigi was a grab monster with the best overall frame data in the game
Luma is a sword with a Brawler's Frame data and absurd kill potential
Villager has a bunch of amazing buttons/mechanics in her favor like all her aerials and Lloid for example
Ness has a bunch of great buttons among one of the most frightening Punishes in the game

Mobility (and the best overall punish game in Smash) is the reason why Nairo can win a Major with Her despite Link having all those things you mentioned (though i disagree on the edgeguarding) and the reason why most people agree Toon>Link

Link is also a grab monster in this game and is harder to wall than Luigi by design due to Bombs covering options and because tether grab is just that good. Not much reason to play Ness or Luigi in this game when Link exists if you ask me.

I think you're severely underestimating just how good Link's grab is. It doesn't mean a lot to just simply be mobile when you have to first get past Link's absurd anti-airs AND his grab which effectively can control half a stage by itself. For all of the mobility Fox and Falcon have, they lose to Link right now when they just get wrecked if Link grabs them.

And no, Toon Link is not better than Link as long as shield still stops him cold. Shield is annoying for Link, but he can at least punish it really hard, and Link also is safer on shield with most moves. Also I am almost certain Link's top tier matchups are explicitly better when the threat of a strong grab >>> threat of TL Bomb in forcing people to respect neutral.

 

[Rizen]

Rizen But why? If Link has the potential to make top 8, then why are people not exploring him further? Link has so much potential to get to the top 8 brackets, yet people do not try exploring him. It's unbelievable that people aren't really giving him a chance at it; people are giving Doctor Mario, who was considered around low to bottom tier range, a chance because of one tournament. Now Doctor Mario is considered mid-tier and people are experimenting more with him. But just, why not Link? If Link has the potential to make top 8, then surely he has something up his sleeve that people aren't digging at. I guess underrepresentation of Link will surely put him into the low tier brackets despite his amazing potential.

In my opinion, he's either a direct middle or an upper middle tier and I can explain why in quite an enormous post. But why do that when I can head to a large tournament?

Link has potential to get top 8 in regionals, so does Ganon and Zelda . People are experimenting with him, see here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/link...rmative-quotes-can-be-found-in-the-op.379659/
Link's not bad but like @pry said, other characters have an easier time winning. IMO Link can do well in most situations but he's never the best and must constantly improvise. Toon Link can zone more effectively because his mobility. Mega Man simply has a faster more reliable mid-range game. Pac Man has better mobility and some fast attacks like a frame 3 Nair (vs Link's frame 6 Bair and 7 Nair). Link gets some low % combos but nothing like high tiers. Link's chains combos are more like frame 12 grab>Dthrow>buffer dash>jump>Uair for a frame perfect 50/50 air dodge read at 70-90%. Other characters get crazy combos like Dthrow>Uair>Uair>upB at a much wider range of %s and less strict on execution.

I can see Link in Mid tier but it's hard to put him above characters like Pac Man who are so much faster and more mobile. When you have low mobility, a frame 7 jumpsquat, 12 grab and your fastest attacks are frame 7 jab, frame 6 Bair, it's really hard to keep up at a high level of play

Link has arguably the best CQC of all the dedicated campers. He's kind of a hybrid between a camper and a boxer-grappler. People tend not to think of him as the latter because sword and hook shot don't fit it thematically, but gameplay-wise he does.

I'd say Link has a great mid range game but bad CQC. His jab is frame 7, grab 12, and jumpsquat is 7 frames. He really has no good OoS options (jump>Nair takes 14 frames, grab is slow to start and Usmash/upB have huge commitment if they wiff) and loses when the opponent gets inside his happy bubble (or closer than the tip of jab/Fair/Bair). Link does get a frame 6 (IIRC) bomb throw or shield/dodge the explosion if he's already holding a bomb and that's probably his best option.

has legitimate Jab cancel KO confirms,

Link lost his jab cancel several patches ago. You're really overplaying his guessing game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I can see Link in Mid tier but it's hard to put him above characters like Pac Man who are so much faster and more mobile. When you have low mobility, a frame 7 jumpsquat, 12 grab and your fastest attacks are frame 7 jab, frame 6 Bair, it's really hard to keep up at a high level of play

I'd say Link has a great mid range game but bad CQC. His jab is frame 7, grab 12, and jumpsquat is 7 frames. He really has no good OoS options (jump>Nair takes 14 frames, grab is slow to start and Usmash/upB have huge commitment if they wiff) and loses when the opponent gets inside his happy bubble (or closer than the tip of jab/Fair/Bair). Link does get a frame 6 (IIRC) bomb throw or shield/dodge the explosion if he's already holding a bomb and that's probably his best option.


Link lost his jab cancel several patches ago. You're really overplaying his guessing game.

Of all the things Pac Man has over Link, mobility really isn't one of them,.

ZSS grab is frame 16 and she literally cannot hit you with a single rising aerial in neutral, meaning any aerial she hits you with is a 20+ frame commitment at minimum. But she won a major. If that's possible, Link can probably do even better than top 8 in majors.

Furthermore thanks to shield changes Jab2 is -11 on shield (-4 on shield drop). That's frankly really really good. Furthermore the only way people can avoid Jab2 KO confirms is by jumping, which you can catch with U-smash/F-air/U-air.

 

[Ffamran]

ZSS grab is frame 16 and she literally cannot hit you with a single rising aerial in neutral, meaning any aerial she hits you with is a 20+ frame commitment at minimum. But she won a major. If that's possible, Link can probably do even better than top 8 in majors.

Wait... Can't she use rising Uairs, though? Or perhaps Fair?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wait... Can't she use rising Uairs, though? Or perhaps Fair?

If you're super tall and basically right next to her...sure. That doesn't really count especially if you crouch.

 

[Rizen]

Of all the things Pac Man has over Link, mobility really isn't one of them.

ZSS grab is frame 16 and she literally cannot hit you with a single rising aerial in neutral, meaning any aerial she hits you with is a 20+ frame commitment at minimum. But she won a major. If that's possible, Link can probably do even better than top 8 in majors.

Yes but ZSS also has a frame 1 jab, 3 Utilt, 4 jumpsquat, really good mobility, an amazing flip kick and huge grab reward. Link's grab reward is very restricted by %s and if the opponent simply knows to DI away and jump.

 

[Ffamran]

If you're super tall and basically right next to her...sure. That doesn't really count especially if you crouch.

I think I was thinking from an air-to-air situation where let's say Pikachu decided to jump and do something, but ZSS jumps up and meets Pikachu with an Uair. For ground... I think Nair is the only thing she has which I guess would be a frame 14 commitment if it's frame perfect.

 

[verbatim]

Link has arguably the best CQC of all the dedicated campers. He's kind of a hybrid between a camper and a boxer-grappler. People tend not to think of him as the latter because sword and hook shot don't fit it thematically, but gameplay-wise he does.

Pacman has a frame 3 nair, a frame 1 up b, a frame 4 jab, frame 5 ftilt, frame 5 fair with a faster first action frame than Sheik's, etc. He clearly doesn't kill as early as link, but he SIGNIFICANTLY more options at CQC. I can't say I know that much about Link but his earliest OOS option is a frame 8 jump canceled up b, and I'd imagine his only safe on shield options are projectiles and zair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yes but ZSS also has a frame 1 jab, 3 Utilt, 4 jumpsquat, really good mobility, an amazing flip kick and huge grab reward. Link's grab reward is very restricted by %s and if the opponent simply knows to DI away and jump.

Link can KO confirm ZSS, Fox, Pikachu, and Sheik WHETHER OR NOT THEY DI with D-throw U-air. These are literally the best characters in the game, and D-throw U-air is completely inescapable at KO percents.

Also ZSS grab reward is also very percent restricted, realistically. Obviously Nairo wins by not screwing it up.

 

[Rizen]

Link can KO confirm ZSS, Fox, Pikachu, and Sheik WHETHER OR NOT THEY DI with D-throw U-air. These are literally the best characters in the game, and D-throw U-air is completely inescapable at KO percents.

Also ZSS grab reward is also very percent restricted, realistically. Obviously Nairo wins by not screwing it up.

No it's a frame perfect 50/50 DI guessing game in about a 20% window, Dthrow>Uair. IDK where you're getting this stuff.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No it's a frame perfect 50/50 DI guessing game in about a 20% window, Dthrow>Uair. IDK where you're getting this stuff.

They can't airdodge or jump if you do it frame perfect and react to DI. It's guaranteed, and it is up to the Link player to not screw it up. If Nairo can air confirm raw U-airs into up-B KO confirms, frankly see no reason why a Link player of the same skill wouldn't make this guaranteed at a high level.

It's a 50/50 on heavier characters, but even that is kinda crazy given Link's general damage output.

 

[Rizen]

They can't airdodge or jump if you do it frame perfect and react to DI. It's guaranteed, and it is up to the Link player to not screw it up. If Nairo can air confirm raw U-airs into up-B KO confirms, frankly see no reason why a Link player of the same skill wouldn't make this guaranteed at a high level.

It's a 50/50 on heavier characters, but even that is kinda crazy given Link's general damage output.

http://smashboards.com/threads/link...rmative-quotes-can-be-found-in-the-op.379659/
@FSK said, "Let us take for instance a light character at 130% for instance sheik. When you dthrow sheik, sheik will be unable to do anything for 70 frames from the start of the dthrow. On frame 70 sheik is able to airdodge. On frame 76 sheik is able to double jump or input an attack. REGARDLESS of DI, Link will be able to reach his target within frame 76 with uair. If the opponent DIs away from Link it will take Link 75 frames to reach sheik. This means that it won't true combo, but sheiks ONLY option to avoid the strong hit is to airdodge. Luckily for us, uair lasts longer than an airdodge so if you follow sheiks trajectory you will eventually hit her with the weak hit. Which will KO around 120%-130% on most lighter characters.

Also if you have massive amounts of rage you can basically KO the whole cast before 100% and at this point it will true combo on most characters regardless of DI.

The input is important and the timing is strict. After the dthrow you have to buffer a dash, then on the first frame of the dash you have to jump and then uair as soon as possible after leaving the ground."

It's not a bad option for KOing but it's not as free as most high tier characters' strings. Granted staling Dthrow makes it less tight.

 

[Ffamran]

Pacman has a frame 3 nair, a frame 1 up b, a frame 4 grab, frame 5 ftilt, frame 5 fair with a faster first action frame than Sheik's, etc. He clearly doesn't kill as early as link, but he SIGNIFICANTLY more options at CQC. I can't say I know that much about Link but his earliest OOS option is a frame 8 jump canceled up b.

First off, Pac-Man's standing grab is frame 12, the same as Link's, but the only difference is that it's frame 12 for standing, dash, and pivot grabs while Link's is 12 standing, 14 dash, and 15 pivot. Also, nobody in this game has a frame 4 grab; everyone wished they did. Second off, please, (everyone), take into account jump frames which would add 5 frames to all of his aerials which wouldn't make much of a difference between Pac-Man and Link's aerial hit speeds, but still. And three, please take into account landing lag and auto-cancel windows which for Pac-Man's Fair, is much worse than Sheik's; the main draw of Sheik's Fair is you can land and incur little to no landing lag like how Fox can bait with an average speed Bair by landing and repeatedly Bairing and landing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

http://smashboards.com/threads/link...rmative-quotes-can-be-found-in-the-op.379659/
@FSK said, "Let us take for instance a light character at 130% for instance sheik. When you dthrow sheik, sheik will be unable to do anything for 70 frames from the start of the dthrow. On frame 70 sheik is able to airdodge. On frame 76 sheik is able to double jump or input an attack. REGARDLESS of DI, Link will be able to reach his target within frame 76 with uair. If the opponent DIs away from Link it will take Link 75 frames to reach sheik. This means that it won't true combo, but sheiks ONLY option to avoid the strong hit is to airdodge. Luckily for us, uair lasts longer than an airdodge so if you follow sheiks trajectory you will eventually hit her with the weak hit. Which will KO around 120%-130% on most lighter characters.

Also if you have massive amounts of rage you can basically KO the whole cast before 100% and at this point it will true combo on most characters regardless of DI.

The input is important and the timing is strict. After the dthrow you have to buffer a dash, then on the first frame of the dash you have to jump and then uair as soon as possible after leaving the ground."

It's not a bad option for KOing but it's not as free as most high tier characters' strings.

It's out of a GRAB.

That's literally as free as you can get competitively unless you're talking Melee Ganon CGs on space animals where the reaction window for that is in fact impossibly strict. This is nowhere nearly as strict as that, just requires mechanics and basic reaction to DI.

 

[NewZen]

This is actually one of the first posts I've noticed in regards to someone talking about Link's potential and overall issues without actively overhyping the crap out of him. As a Toon Link main, I consistently hear about the major advantages Toon has over Link, and that's mainly mobility, but can someone please explain why that's one of the major reasons, even though Link has more range, power, and arguably a better grab (Albeit, slightly worse throw game)? Thank you.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is actually one of the first posts I've noticed in regards to someone talking about Link's potential and overall issues without actively overhyping the crap out of him. As a Toon Link main, I consistently hear about the major advantages Toon has over Link, and that's mainly mobility, but can someone please explain why that's one of the major reasons, even though Link has more range, power, and arguably a better grab (Albeit, slightly worse throw game)? Thank you.

Link's throw game is like, several tiers better than TL's lol.