Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[G. Stache]

Link is also a grab monster in this game and is harder to wall than Luigi by design due to Bombs covering options and because tether grab is just that good. Not much reason to play Ness or Luigi in this game when Link exists if you ask me.

This is the reason why babies cry...
Why is there little point in using Luigi, might I ask? Why are we comparing Luigi and Link? Two completely different characters with one semi-relatable attribute (which Luigi does better btw). Luigi's grab game is unmistakably better than Link's, and Ness' is too. Saying that Link's is better is what we call biased. If Link's grab game was better than these two, he'd be noticed like DK was. People would use him more. Even FG players would realize this and let go of the Special button and start spamming grab. No offense, but no way is Link's grab game that good.

 

[Rizen]

This is actually one of the first posts I've noticed in regards to someone talking about Link's potential and overall issues without actively overhyping the crap out of him. As a Toon Link main, I consistently hear about the major advantages Toon has over Link, and that's mainly mobility, but can someone please explain why that's one of the major reasons, even though Link has more range, power, and arguably a better grab (Albeit, slightly worse throw game)? Thank you.

If anyone wants to know more about Link check the metagame thread I posted earlier or ask @Fox Is Openly Deceptive, he's the guy who keeps track of all that. He also runs the TL metagame thread so he's good for that too.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is the reason why babies cry...
Why is there little point in using Luigi, might I ask? Why are we comparing Luigi and Link? Two completely different characters with one semi-relatable attribute (which Luigi does better btw). Luigi's grab game is unmistakably better than Link's, and Ness' is too. Saying that Link's is better is what we call biased. If Link's grab game was better than these two, he'd be noticed like DK was. People would use him more. Even FG players would realize this and let go of the Special button and start spamming grab. No offense, but no way is Link's grab game that good.

Try it.

Just try it.

Free U-tilts and U-smash out of grab? KO confirms on the BEST CHARACTERS IN THE GAME? 50/50s into death on slightly heavier characters that can kill as early as 80% (force the airdodge, kill with U-smash instead)?

Yeah uh...you gotta wonder why people don't just spam grab more with this character. Bloody serious. Especially when y'know, not even Sheik can just trivially outprioritize Link's grab with her OBJECTIVELY BROKEN ATTACKS?

Yeah okay Luigi builds damage a little more reliably, but Link's grab reward is comparable or better than Ness's in several situations, and the grab is about the same difficulty to get. And he can set up the KO more easily than Luigi.

Let's also remember, not only is Link's grab scary, he has some of the best anti-airs in the game too. ZSS also has pretty decent anti-airs that can lead to kills, but basically every tether grabber wishes their anti-airs were as stupidly good as Link's.

 

[Mario766]

Link can KO confirm ZSS, Fox, Pikachu, and Sheik WHETHER OR NOT THEY DI with D-throw U-air. These are literally the best characters in the game, and D-throw U-air is completely inescapable at KO percents.

Also ZSS grab reward is also very percent restricted, realistically. Obviously Nairo wins by not screwing it up.

It really isn't that hard to get kill confirms on ZSS, Sheik or Fox. They all fall fast enough for most throw kill confirms to work.

Ike Up throw F-Air works on all 3 at 90-110 dependant on rage. ZSS is the easiest to hit by far though, being so tall.

Also, you're trying to talk about Link compared to ZSS you're forgetting one major important fact

Mobility. Link is bottom 15 in mobility, ZSS is top 5 in everything but fall speed. This makes her much more of a threat in neutral, not to mention that ZSS doesn't NEED rising aerials, she has a +0 N-Air that hits for 10 damage, follow-ups into kill confirms or more damage, and is safe on shield.

You also talk about ZSS frame 16 grab. Link's is frame 12. That's only standing too, pivot? 15. Dash? 14.

 

[verbatim]

First off, Pac-Man's standing grab is frame 12, the same as Link's, but the only difference is that it's frame 12 for standing, dash, and pivot grabs while Link's is 12 standing, 14 dash, and 15 pivot. Also, nobody in this game has a frame 4 grab; everyone wished they did. Second off, please, (everyone), take into account jump frames which would add 5 frames to all of his aerials which wouldn't make much of a difference between Pac-Man and Link's aerial hit speeds, but still. And three, please take into account landing lag and auto-cancel windows which for Pac-Man's Fair, is much worse than Sheik's; the main draw of Sheik's Fair is you can land and incur little to no landing lag like how Fox can bait with an average speed Bair by landing and repeatedly Bairing and landing.

Meant to say jab, IDK how grab came out.

I listed the framedata for 4 in the sense that it's safe on shield. OOS it's not a thing but nair OOS is completely a thing, whereas nothing link has is.

Also 5 frames being added for the jump is not an evening factor. Frame 3 aerial moves + jumpsquat are absolutely a valid punish oos, frame 8 moves + shield drop aren't, and even if they weren't Pacman would still be up by a 4 frame advantage comparing shield drop jabs.

The ultimate point I'm trying to make is that Link doesn't have any real safe options in CQC, at least to the degree Pacman does.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mobility. Link is bottom 15 in mobility, ZSS is top 5 in everything but fall speed. This makes her much more of a threat in neutral, not to mention that ZSS doesn't NEED rising aerials, she has a +0 N-Air that hits for 10 damage, follow-ups into kill confirms or more damage, and is safe on shield.

You also talk about ZSS frame 16 grab. Link's is frame 12. That's only standing too, pivot? 15. Dash? 14.

There's mobility, and then let's get back to the fact Shulk even with Monado shenanigans is one of the worst characters in the game and that Yoshi, with some of the best mobility in the game, wins next to nothing notable.

And that Luigi with some of the worst mobility specs in the game overall, had some great tournament results before patch changes.

Link also has item tossing (and Bombslide), several aerials with comparable safety on shield as ZSS N-air which CAN be used rising in punish situations, and is much less finicky with Rage compared to ZSS.

Link might not move fast in the air, but he benefits from a strong run pivot for weaving on the ground, and controls a huge amount of space with all his moves. And the grab simply cannot be disrespected in neutral, especially when nobody wants to actually jump against Link in neutral.

 

[Dre89]

Bowser doesn't have anywhere near Link's reward, and also has a disadvantage state that is arguably worse than Falcon's.

I don't think Bowser is underrated. He's a generic heavy with all the disadvantages of being huge, and almost none of the benefits of either winning extremely quickly off a few juggle reads or edgeguards, or forcing people to really guess to capitalize on his negative state. Bowser only has a somewhat decent neutral, but everything else about him is noticeably to severely below average.

Whereas with Link, most things about him are legitimately pretty good, outside of having a somewhat below average negative state.

Bowser's reward is good, people just think it's bad because he has no combos. The reality is he has such high damage per hit and kills so early that you literally only need to get in on them 4-5 times before they're in range for kill options that are sub frame 12.

His disadvantage is nowhere near as bad as people think it is. After about 40-50% it's extremely risky trying to pressure him in the air because he has fast options that can kill you. He doesn't have a get out of jail free card but killing people at 90% who mispredicted in advantage is a common kill method for Bowser.

Also your last paragraph demonstrated you don't understand him at all. You're probably one of those types who thinks he mainly spaces with tilts and needs fsmash reads to kill early. The guy literally punishes harder than Ganondorf of juggle reads and can kill you at 80% if he reads anything you do.

We're not talking about frame 20 fsmashes here. We're talking about frame 7, 9 and 11 options that kill before 100. Some of which have very safe set ups.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser's reward is good, people just think it's bad because he has no combos. The reality is he has such high damage per hit and kills so early that you literally only need to get in on them 4-5 times before they're in range for kill options that are sub frame 12.

His disadvantage is nowhere near as bad as people think it is. After about 40-50% it's extremely risky trying to pressure him in the air because he has fast options that can kill you. He doesn't have a get out of jail free card but killing people at 90% who mispredicted in advantage is a common kill method for Bowser.

Also your last paragraph demonstrated you don't understand him at all. You're probably one of those types who thinks he mainly spaces with tilts and needs fsmash reads to kill early. The guy literally punishes harder than Ganondorf of juggle reads and can kill you at 80% if he reads anything you do.

We're not talking about frame 20 fsmashes here. We're talking about frame 7, 9 and 11 options that kill before 100. Some of which have very safe set ups.

Bowser can't frame trap people in the air properly, and his edgeguarding is very limited. His best reward comes from edgetrapping or generically catching landings with SideB, which is less effective depending on the matchup.

Bowser only kills well if you're a character with very limited options to avoid his super specific situations where he can hit you. Link actually can get super massive reward in multiple situations, while Bowser has like...2 situations where he gets good reward that are extremely obvious.

Also uh, he definitely has basically the worst landing options with his landing lag and inability to really change his horizontal momentum meaningfully. At least Ganon Down-B is good at striking blindspots when he desperately needs to challenge juggles, but Bowser has nothing like that which can't be easily outspaced in most situations.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Link lost his jab cancel several patches ago. You're really overplaying his guessing game.

Actually he's right. Jab 1 doesn't confirm anymore, but Jab 2 can.

 

[Teshie U]

Kie is not a "lesser Japanese Peach". He lost some interest in Smash 4 at some point, but lately he has been running very strong again. Although he lost to Ron in Losers, he did beat him in Winners, which is no small feat. Kie is really good.

Ron is considered a very strong player in Japan, albeit online he is a dominating presence. I have some Japanese players on my Twitter and my Twitter flooded with tweets praising him. I have no doubt he must be an exceptionally strong player.

He is obviously good, but people are already acting like he is an international threat. People pop out at regionals all the time and do very well and then fall off.

Of course people are praising him, he did very well. Japan's scene isn't like NA. When you do well, people dont immediately start trashing you or pointing out every flaw in your style.

Kie has less impressive results than Umeki in Smash 4. Thats all there is to it. Just saying, even if he IS amazing, this tournament is just a couple of notable wins for him. These ARE the best results I've seen from the Mario Bros in Japan though.

 

[Mario766]

There's another of Link's issues, which TL also has to deal with.

Lack of OoS options. As said before, Link/TL's fastest OoS option is frame 9, with 1 frame of jumpsquat if done frame perfect and 8 frames for the first hitbox of aerial spin attack to come out. This leads to issues.

1: Frame 9 punishes are slow for how good shield stun is now in Smash 4. A lot of aerials are hard to punish with frame 9 moves, unless they are badly spaced.

2: You're doing an aerial spin attack...That's insanely laggy if you miss. That's like doing it on Mac, you're dead. I'm pretty sure Aerial spin attack has the same type of FAF in the air like it does on the ground, which is 42 frames. 42 + Fall speed + Hard landing of 5 frames = Biggest window for a punish I've seen ever.

OoS Up Smash would be safer, but now you're at frame 11-12. Which is on the level of OoS Jab.

There's mobility, and then let's get back to the fact Shulk even with Monado shenanigans is one of the worst characters in the game and that Yoshi, with some of the best mobility in the game, wins next to nothing notable.

And that Luigi with some of the worst mobility specs in the game overall, had some great tournament results before patch changes.

Link also has item tossing (and Bombslide), several aerials with comparable safety on shield as ZSS N-air which CAN be used rising in punish situations, and is much less finicky with Rage compared to ZSS.

Link might not move fast in the air, but he benefits from a strong run pivot for weaving on the ground, and controls a huge amount of space with all his moves. And the grab simply cannot be disrespected in neutral, especially when nobody wants to actually jump against Link in neutral.

Shulk has to deal with subpar mobility. He gets a boost in one category, loses even harder in another. He gains it for 16 seconds, loses it for 11 on CD. In a 6 minute game, this leads to 13 uses of Speed if used every second that it was available, or jump. He has over 2 minutes of not having the Monado up. This doesn't fix the problem, it just glosses them over.

Yoshi has the mobility, but has other issues he has to deal with, which is why he doesn't get his results.

Luigi had the best throw combos in the game, killed you off a grab at 90 with zero counter play. His mobility didn't matter as much, not to mention his ground movement is still better than Link's because of how good his initial dash was, coupled with his amazing dash grab game.

Ness' mobility is an issue of his, but he also has 2 of the best OoS punish options in the game. Frame 6 OoS N-Air that does 11 damage and can be used rising, and frame 6 grab OoS that will kill you at 80-100.

Does Link have none of these?

No. He doesn't.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's another of Link's issues, which TL also has to deal with.

Lack of OoS options. As said before, Link/TL's fastest OoS option is frame 9, with 1 frame of jumpsquat if done frame perfect and 8 frames for the first hitbox of aerial spin attack to come out. This leads to issues.

1: Frame 9 punishes are slow for how good shield stun is now in Smash 4. A lot of aerials are hard to punish with frame 9 moves, unless they are badly spaced.

2: You're doing an aerial spin attack...That's insanely laggy if you miss. That's like doing it on Mac, you're dead. I'm pretty sure Aerial spin attack has the same type of FAF in the air like it does on the ground, which is 42 frames. 42 + Fall speed + Hard landing of 5 frames = Biggest window for a punish I've seen ever.

OoS Up Smash would be safer, but now you're at frame 11-12. Which is on the level of OoS Jab.



Shulk has to deal with subpar mobility. He gets a boost in one category, loses even harder in another. He gains it for 16 seconds, loses it for 11 on CD. In a 6 minute game, this leads to 13 uses of Speed if used every second that it was available, or jump. He has over 2 minutes of not having the Monado up. This doesn't fix the problem, it just glosses them over.

Yoshi has the mobility, but has other issues he has to deal with, which is why he doesn't get his results.

Luigi had the best throw combos in the game, killed you off a grab at 90 with zero counter play. His mobility didn't matter as much, not to mention his ground movement is still better than Link's because of how good his initial dash was, coupled with his amazing dash grab game.

Ness' mobility is an issue of his, but he also has 2 of the best OoS punish options in the game. Frame 6 OoS N-Air that does 11 damage and can be used rising, and frame 6 grab OoS that will kill you at 80-100.

Does Link have none of these?

No. He doesn't.

None of these characters also have a pivot grab nearly as good as Link's, nor do they have Link's amazing normal run pivot which immediately reverses his momentum and has low commitment.

Luigi also has very bad out of shield options due to his traction, but he doesn't have nearly the same ability to weave as Link on the ground without committing to Dance Trotting, which has bigger frame commitments. And furthermore Link also can kill you out of grab without counterplay in several matchups, including those against THE BEST CHARACTERS IN THE GAME.

 

[Mario766]

Join the club. Plenty of characters have kill confirms that aren't nearly as frame perfect as what people describe for Link.

Sounds like the character in general.

You put a ton of work in and don't get nearly the reward for your troubles.

 

[Rizen]

Actually he's right. Jab 1 doesn't confirm anymore, but Jab 2 can.

Jab 2 doesn't confirm but it does lead to a read. None of Link's jabs 'confirm' into anything but the next jab.
Here at Link Metagame Science we're not banging rocks together. We've tested all this stuff.
http://smashboards.com/threads/link...rmative-quotes-can-be-found-in-the-op.379659/

 

[A2ZOMG]

Join the club. Plenty of characters have kill confirms that aren't nearly as frame perfect as what people describe for Link.

Sounds like the character in general.

You put a ton of work in and don't get nearly the reward for your troubles.

Frankly, the only time Link needs to work remotely hard is mild conditioning into his grab if you ask me. Then he has to be smart about avoiding getting cheesed by juggles and edgeguards.

But winning neutral and killing people? That's not really hard for him when you have the best tether grab in the game, item tossing, top tier anti-airs and edgeguards.

Jab 2 doesn't confirm but it does lead to a read. None of Link's jabs 'confirm' into anything but the next jab.
Here at Link Metagame Science we're not banging rocks together. We've tested all this stuff.

They have to jump to avoid that in most situations. That's a fairly hard read that Link can punish quite hard, and it still probably loses to U-smash anyway.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Yoshi has the mobility, but has other issues he has to deal with, which is why he doesn't get his results.

I may have said this before, but a lot of these Yoshi lacking results arguments IMO bore down to player limitations. No one is really willing to put in the effort bar a few. There are also his own flaws he has to deal with (lack of good OoS options outside jump, recovery, troubles with disjoints, etc.), but what I mentioned above also holds weight. And in terms of actual results, I can name a couple from recent tourneys if you want.

Firefly: 5th at PAX

Raptor: 9th at SSC

Heard that a Yoshi main named Zefwano barely fell outside Top 32 at MLG

Yoshidora: Kind of an obvious one

Poltergust: 17th at CEO, 13 at STR

DIO: 7th at Karisuma 5

 

[FallofBrawl]

I may have said this before, but a lot of these Yoshi lacking results arguments IMO bore down to player limitations. No one is really willing to put in the effort bar a few. There are also his own flaws he has to deal with (lack of good OoS options outside jump, recovery, troubles with disjoints, etc.), but what I mentioned above also holds weight. And in terms of actual results, I can name a couple from recent tourneys if you want.

Firefly: 6th at PAX

Raptor: 9th at SSC

Heard that a Yoshi main named Zefwano barely fell outside Top 32 at MLG

Yoshidora: Kind of an obvious one

Poltergust: 17th at CEO

DIO: 7th at Karisuma 5

How could you forget The Wall?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

How could you forget The Wall?

Whoops, I don't know any of his placings. Inform me of a few he has, and I'll edit my original comment.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi had the best throw combos in the game, killed you off a grab at 90 with zero counter play. His mobility didn't matter as much, not to mention his ground movement is still better than Link's because of how good his initial dash was, coupled with his amazing dash grab game.

Did... did you play lightweights and stay near the ledge while not killing a raging Luigi and not DI-ing at all...?

Also, it's just wrong when you say 'Luigi's mobility didn't matter as much'. Luigi's mobility problems are literally the only ones that keeping this character from being busted. Link's mobility problems aren't as glaring because he has numerous projectiles to pelt people with (BOMBS), great side and neutral aerials, while also packing really long sword disjointed range which are also powerful.

But those are pre-patch so they don't matter anyway.

 

[bc1910]

Link's jab does not confirm into anything. It doesn't matter if it forces double jump, that's not a confirm. It's a powerful tool, but nowhere near as powerful as a true confirm, and plenty of the top/high tiers have ways to land safely and escape Link's anti airs without their double jump (Quick Attack, Bouncjng Fish and Hydro Pump all come to mind).

Also don't know why people keep insisting that TL loses to shield when shield beats itself in his game. A character who can hurl no-risk projectiles at a shielding opponent while their shield gets smaller anyway isn't exactly hard done by in the tools-against-shields department. To lose to shield you need a bad grab game and bad shield pressure, TL's shield pressure with projectiles is top notch. Up close he's not a huge fan of shields (running shield is an issue for him), but he can quite easily back roll/run away and use his air mobility to retreat. And of course overzealous run to shield use will get grabbed a lot, his grab reward stinks but he can still get you in the air.

He does have trouble killing people who shield a lot because in that instance, racking up damage with safe shield pressure doesn't actually net him the kill unless he hits a bomb toss or boomerang at the perfect moment (he has to know they will hit). So that's a legitimate weakness for him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Link's jab does not confirm into anything. It doesn't matter if it forces double jump, that's not a confirm. It's a powerful tool, but nowhere near as powerful as a true confirm, and plenty of the top/high tiers have ways to land safely and escape Link's anti airs without their double jump (Quick Attack, Bouncjng Fish and Hydro Pump all come to mind).

That's not even how things work at all. If said character commits to those moves to try to escape Link's followups, they get hit out of startup.

You have to actually use your midair jump to avoid most of the ground followups (U-smash still reaches really high). Sheik Down-B is the most likely to escape Link's stuff on a read, but the others you really are just better off hoping you can time an airdodge really well.

TL can't really attack a shield safely other than throwing Bombs and Z-air at it, which Link can also do but his other attacks have better frame data on shield. He also technically forces nobody to approach, unlike Link who actually beats reaction time with full stage distance arrows, whereas TL's long and mid range projectile pressure is pretty easily defended against reactively.

 

[Trifroze]

Link doesn't get guaranteed kills off of dthrow on lightweights, at least not on ZSS who's a fairly fast falling lightweight, so I highly doubt he gets them on the rest of them either. It's a 50:50. Jab 2 sets up for nothing on fast fallers, possibly not others either if you SDI the jabs down/up depending on whether going for mid-air jump or trying to hit the ground and shield is faster for that particular character.

And no, fair doesn't work either, airdodge avoids both hits.

ZSS grab is frame 16 and she literally cannot hit you with a single rising aerial in neutral, meaning any aerial she hits you with is a 20+ frame commitment at minimum. But she won a major. If that's possible, Link can probably do even better than top 8 in majors.

ZSS' grab also has roughly 3 times the active frames of Link's, her dashgrab covers nearly half of an omega stage, and she has far better mobility and pressure to force the opponent to sit in shield and be vulnerable for her grabs. Their cooldowns are also very similar which is the most important part. Link's standing grab has a clear edge due to being able to shieldgrab some crucial things ZSS can't, but then again they both have a frame 4 up b OoS so it's irrelevant in most cases.

ZSS doesn't have a single rising aerial but she has good autocancels for air to air and her mobility and dash grab force people to jump around more, while her nair and zair outperform Link's disjoints in the air horizontally. Nair and uair also set up for death combos at 30-90% and can't be shieldgrabbed on landing before ZSS' jab comes out, and zair sets up for grab which sets up for the same death combos at the same percentages. Bair is a kill move that's as safe as nair and uair except jabbing isn't as useful afterwards due to requiring a turnaround. Link's autocancels on the other hand are non-existent unless you're going to be relying on bair a lot, and his falling aerials don't have nearly the same safety or reward as ZSS' do, and his jump squat is also very slow.

You can't compare the two just because they both have a tether grab and a bad rising aerial game. Even if we only consider these two factors without all the other massive differences, ZSS' grab is quite good for a tether grab due to her dashgrab and active frames, her grab reward is as overtuned as possible without being broken and her falling aerial game is the safest and most rewarding in the entire cast (with Ryu as a relatively close runner-up in my opinion). Link's grab reward is only decent to good (dependent on the opponent's weight) and his falling aerial game is meh.

 

[bc1910]

What are you talking about?

You don't use the disadvantage move after getting hit with jab 2. You double jump away (it doesn't matter how high Usmash goes, it's not fast enough to catch double jump airdodge) and THEN land safely using your top tier disadvantage move, to avoid Link's anti-airs. Which won't even be available if he's stuck in Usmash.

Whatever, Trifroze nailed it anyway.

 

[A2ZOMG]

U-air completely outlasts airdodge though, so by following DI you still tag them with the sourspot anyway which still kills people. That literally can't be avoided by lighter characters at certain percents if you react correctly (the example you have didn't put ZSS high enough).

This isn't an argument about who is better, but the original point is neither character is hindered by their grab or having bad rising aerial options (which is bigger for ZSS, who hits higher on everything and doesn't have as many lingering hitboxes on aerials). Link doesn't have a 1 frame Jab or the same cheese conversion (which can be disrupted more by Rage in ZSS's case which affects her D-throw more), but unlike ZSS is better at forcing approaches (both arrows and Bombs have to be shielded more or less preemtively) and also has item tossing and all of its associated benefits for safe shield pressure and defensive responses. Plus Link's stronger offstage game means he can be fairly indiscriminate about how he kills in most matchups, when basically no character in this game is safe against Link's edgeguards, while ZSS in comparison is a lot more limited at edgeguarding, meaning if she doesn't get to death combo you either due to rage or getting outplayed in spacing wars, her options to end the stock are noticeably more limited.

 

[Ghostbone]

U-air completely outlasts airdodge though, so by following DI you still tag them with the sourspot anyway which still kills people. That literally can't be avoided by lighter characters at certain percents if you react correctly.

You literally have a GIF showing you this isn't the case. (characters can fall below Link, or just fade away with their faster aerial mobility, or possibly go past him too)

 

[A2ZOMG]

You literally have a GIF showing you this isn't the case. (characters can fall below Link, or just fade away with their faster aerial mobility, or possibly go past him too)

It wasn't at optimal percents. He could have gone for the D-throw at higher percents so he'd be more directly below ZSS.

 

[Ghostbone]

.............
At higher %s they're just going to go further away from Link.

 

[Wintermelon43]

If is top 10, is the new

 

[TriTails]

What was the outcome of this? You can see ZSS' airdodge's invincibility frames wearing off when Link still has his U-air active in the end. The sourspot is unusually powerful for an aerial and it still can kill.

 

[bc1910]

What was the outcome of this? You can see ZSS' airdodge's invincibility frames wearing off when Link still has his U-air active in the end. The sourspot is unusually powerful for an aerial and it still can kill.

His point was the fact that she's already drifted out of range.

It could work at higher percents but then she moves even further away from Link so I don't know.

 

[Amadeus9]

U-air completely outlasts airdodge though, so by following DI you still tag them with the sourspot anyway which still kills people. That literally can't be avoided by lighter characters at certain percents if you react correctly (the example you have didn't put ZSS high enough).

This isn't an argument about who is better, but the original point is neither character is hindered by their grab or having bad rising aerial options (which is bigger for ZSS, who hits higher on everything and doesn't have as many lingering hitboxes on aerials). Link doesn't have a 1 frame Jab or the same cheese conversion (which can be disrupted more by Rage in ZSS's case which affects her D-throw more), but unlike ZSS is better at forcing approaches (both arrows and Bombs have to be shielded more or less preemtively) and also has item tossing and all of its associated benefits for safe shield pressure and defensive responses. Plus Link's stronger offstage game means he can be fairly indiscriminate about how he kills in most matchups, when basically no character in this game is safe against Link's edgeguards, while ZSS in comparison is a lot more limited at edgeguarding, meaning if she doesn't get to death combo you either due to rage or getting outplayed in spacing wars, her options to end the stock are noticeably more limited.

Welp, looks like Link is better than ZSS in every way, time to pack it up boys, all hail our magic triangle wielding overlord boy

Seriously though what the **** am i reading. Did you seriously say Link is better than ZSS at killing in general? Because those are definitely the words that are on my screen. Just want to be sure.

 

[meleebrawler]

His point was the fact that she's already drifted out of range.

It could work at higher percents but then she moves even further away from Link so I don't know.

To say nothing of how she could just flip jump her way out...

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshidora: Kind of an obvious one

Poltergust: 17th at CEO, 13 at STR

DIO: 7th at Karisuma 5

Yoshidora I don't remember having very good results. Infact, wasn't it Yoshidora that was the wifi warrior with a couple wins while aiba was hyped up (back in the first couple months of wii u)
Infact, if you go here and open all the spoilers/tournaments and ctrl+F yoshidora, he's nowhere to be seen. You'll get Aiba only once, 2nd one is a doubles result. So Japan Yoshi's aren't representing as much as people say, not bringing em down though.

Polt used Luigi at both events, I believe pre-nerf Luigi so sadly not solo. Don't remember the dates for CEO and STR, he's not a tier ***** he just likes Luigi evidenced by his namesake.

DIO is doing bretty good tho

All in all, there's a couple decent results like the ones listed but at the same time every single character realistically has at least a handful of 1st places or even top 6 cause some small regions may just have a really good samus player while everyone else that uses sheik ZSS etc. is mediocre at the game since smashboards rankings just shows the numbers/data not the amount of top players in attendance or it can even be a 15 man tournament and you won 20 bucks but it'll still show first on it in the data.
So technically speaking, Yoshi has results :^)
http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-for-wii-u.8/league/team?rank=1&value=0&team=yoshi
edit: nvm mii gunner only has 3, so not everyone has a handful, just three fingers worth for one character only. Unless wanna be funny and say Cloud has 0 too.

How could you forget The Wall?

Cause he has a million name changes, Zef ztoast something else I forgot and now wall.

 

[Trifroze]

Below 120-125% Link's uair sourspot doesn't kill lightweights, and after around 135-140% they can start jumping away from it. It's guaranteed inbetween, but this is hardly a gamechanging kill setup when you compare it to other characters who kill off of throws especially when you consider Link's tether grab and mobility. On floaty characters, even if lightweight, the percent range where Link's dthrow to uair kills is very narrow, not to mention that rage seems to completely screw this up against anyone. Upper midweights and heavies survive this until 140-150% unless they're floaties in which case it doesn't work at all, and if it does, the range is around 5%.

I'm not going to pretend like the kill setup isn't there, but a setup that starts from a f12/14/15 option with almost a second of endlag and kills no earlier than 125% in an optimal scenario, works only at a 10-15% range and gets ruined by rage isn't threatening, just a neat option to have.

(I originally thought this was closer to Robin's dthrow uair, hence I only tried it between 90-120%)

 

[NewZen]

Link's throw game is like, several tiers better than TL's lol.

I would be inclined to believe you if it weren't for the fact that not a few posts ago you pretty much tried to argue that Link's Grab game was better than Luigi's, a character who dominates off of grabs (I play Link, Toon, and Luigi) versus a character who arguably gets two options at the most with no kill throws and one who has a powerful follow-up with one throw killing rather early.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I would be inclined to believe you if it weren't for the fact that not a few posts ago you pretty much tried to argue that Link's Grab game was better than Luigi's, a character who dominates off of grabs (I play Link, Toon, and Luigi) versus a character who arguably gets two options at the most with no kill throws and one who has a powerful follow-up with one throw killing rather early.

TL'S Bthrow is only a good KO move near the edge. Link's Uthrow doesn't kill super early but around 140-180% depending on weight and rage it's by far more consistent against people that survive that long. Keeping in mind Link's general damage output is huge.

And no, I never said his grab game was better. The point is you have two characters with strong grab games, and one has a better neutral and KO options overall. Luigi is pointless in this game without super reliable KO confirms, especially after his fireball nerfs which basically killed a large part of his neutral.

Below 120-125% Link's uair sourspot doesn't kill lightweights, and after around 135-140% they can start jumping away from it. It's guaranteed inbetween, but this is hardly a gamechanging kill setup when you compare it to other characters who kill off of throws especially when you consider Link's tether grab and mobility. On floaty characters, even if lightweight, the percent range where Link's dthrow to uair kills is very narrow, not to mention that rage seems to completely screw this up against anyone. Upper midweights and heavies survive this until 140-150% unless they're floaties in which case it doesn't work at all, and if it does, the range is around 5%.

I'm not going to pretend like the kill setup isn't there, but a setup that starts from a f12/14/15 option with almost a second of endlag and kills no earlier than 125% in an optimal scenario, works only at a 10-15% range and gets ruined by rage isn't threatening, just a neat option to have.

(I originally thought this was closer to Robin's dthrow uair, hence I only tried it between 90-120%)

Link's grab more importantly has to actively be avoided due to how many options it beats in neutral by itself. In a game where Ganon Flame Choke actually works on good players, Link grab being 12 frames and as disjointed as Shulk is a pretty big deal.

On a character who has as many good anti-airs and the ability to actively force approaches as Link, not to mention some of the highest general damage output in the game, it's pretty game changing when your grab also can end stocks better than the majority of the cast even factoring DI, and also builds damage quickly as well. Link would probably be worse if you only changed his grab to be a normal grab simply because of how much his current grab lets him control midrange as well as catch landings with little effort.

 

[DunnoBro]

KO confirms on the BEST CHARACTERS IN THE GAME?

Dude even duck hunt has KO confirms on light fast fallers

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dude even duck hunt has KO confirms on light fast fallers

You're going to have to define KO confirm because you literally once tried to tell me Mario D-throw -> U-smashing an unnecessary airdodge is a KO confirm, in spite of the fact Mario literally can't force the airdodge due to none of his aerials actually killing at reasonable percents.

Serious request btw.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

You're going to have to define KO confirm because you literally once tried to tell me Mario D-throw -> U-smashing an unnecessary airdodge is a KO confirm, in spite of the fact Mario literally can't force the airdodge due to none of his aerials actually killing at reasonable percents.

Serious request btw.

Actually his Fair confirms from D-throw at specific percentages against a decent potion of the cast, though unless off-stage, it won't kill anyone who techs.

And as far as forcing air dodges, tomahawk up smash works. One might also bait an air dodge due to Mario's amazing frame data on all his aerials besides Fair. The baited air dodge can also be punished with a Uair juggle.

It isn't uncommon for someone like Anti to force the former given that Mario is actually quite good at forcing this reaction that is fast than a jump or eat a juggle. It isn't a KO confirm, but it still gets rid of one option you have for escaping down throw.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Actually his Fair confirms from D-throw at specific percentages against a decent potion of the cast, though unless off-stage, it won't kill anyone who techs.

And as far as forcing air dodges, tomahawk up smash works. One might also bait an air dodge due to Mario's amazing frame data on all his aerials besides Fair. The baited air dodge can also be punished with a Uair juggle.

D-throw F-air from Mario basically requires you to DI inwards to combo, and over half the cast can airdodge it technically (same ones that don't get comboed by Doc D-throw F-air)

Mario doesn't really ever force you to airdodge at percents where his U-smash can actually kill you. You just jump back and either go for a platform or the ledge and you won't die. Worst case scenario he actually goes out to hit you and that's juggle damage, but not a KO.