Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[ParanoidDrone]

I was flying all afternoon and missed basically everything. Is there a Twitch archive or similar I can watch these matches on?

 

[Charoite]

The balance team are busy with , so i think that we will see mostly buffs to low tier and some mid tiers, remember nerfing and in reality will not help, well maybe a little, but the real winners will be high tiers who are blocked by them ie: ,,,,,,

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

The balance team are busy with , so i think that we will see mostly buffs to low tier and some mid tiers, remember nerfing and in reality will not help, well maybe a little, but the real winners will be high tiers who are blocked by them ie: ,,,,,,

Then balance shall come by buffing low/mid tiers

 

[DanGR]

I was flying all afternoon and missed basically everything. Is there a Twitch archive or similar I can watch these matches on?

http://www.twitch.tv/showdowngg2/profile

Check out the archives under the "past broadcast" section.

 

[Sonicninja115]

DK was represented. DKWill got top 32.

Was Dabuz storing everything for a knowledge drop? Rosa Metagame advanced Soo much this tourney. And Dabuz did super well against Ranai. (Sorry unnamed rosa player from SoCal)

Also, ZeRo was using a lot of falling Uair this tourney.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The balance team are busy with , so i think that we will see mostly buffs to low tier and some mid tiers, remember nerfing and in reality will not help, well maybe a little, but the real winners will be high tiers who are blocked by them ie: ,,,,,,

Well of course they'll be the biggest winners, but notice that the list you mentioned is a lot longer than the 2 chars currently in charge, and keep in mind that I'm not suggesting anything close to the nerfs Diddy got, so it's not as if they won't still be there and present most of the same challenges they do currently. Cloud I think is probably getting nerfs since he seems too good too soon against a cast with a year's head start. I predict limit is going to be made to charge slower, similar to the Rosa nerf from 3DS to Wii U, though it shouldn't be quite as significant.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Villager doesn't need major buffs, but I would like to see uptilt and upsmash fixed.

I'd argue that both are fine how they are. Both kill and Villager already has plenty of more reliable kill options as it is. Point blank fair and bair, sweet and sour spot 2-3 turnip uair/dair, nair off stage, bthrow, Lloid ride, axe chop, fsmash, tree growth, timber, and point blank dtilt along with those two. Both serve their purpose well. Both are good out of spot dodges and cancelling out many ledge options, not to mention both are easy to do out of a dsmash bury. As far as a high tier character goes, Villager is really balanced in my opinion. If I had to fix anything of his, it would probably be the end lag of his grab but, given how many options the character already has, it's debatable if this is even necessary.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

All the heavies are still designed as scrub stompers right now. It doesn't matter how hard you buff their combos, they just never get a chance to return to neutral after getting hit. Watch M2K's DK vs a really good sheik or watch 9B fight a Bowser. Good characters just never let these characters play the game more than once per stock. They have no landing options and they can't get off the ledge.

I never really understand when people say Bowser has no landing options. His aren't amazing, but I wouldn't lump him together with DK. He at least has the choice/threat of a dair/Bowser bomb, the choice of using Bowser Bomb to retreat to the ledge, or landing with the Flying Slam grab. It's options that characters to be wary of with Bowser that they don't have to for DK.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Being totally honest here. For one thing I honestly think this patch will be similar to the last in the sense that there wont be any nerfs, but instead several buffs to the low/mid tier characters. Which imo is perfectly fine (tho I wouldn't mind something like Sheiks needle range reduced or ZSS uair nerfed, but I doubt that'll happen). This could very well be our last balance patch ever. Tho I do hope we get one final patch after Bayo and Corrin to iron out any kinks if they provide anything. But in reality I wouldnt be surprised if this is it. I feel as if there are several characters that are in desperate need of buffs such as etc
and several that could use a little bit more for them etc etc etc
But we'll have to wait and see on all that.

On the subject of Cloud, I feel like he is indeed a very very solid character. I dont think hes top tier but I believe hes top 15 maybe. Better than and imo by a bit. I doubt he'll be touched at all in all honesty. I also feel as if he's one of the best doubles characters in the cast at the moment.

I'm pretty excited to see what happens in Febuary.

 

[Thinkaman]

Needle Storm is one of the game's most obnoxious moves, but I don't think they are the source of Sheik's dominance. As an extreme showcase of this notion, removing fair would ruin Sheik far more than removing Needles. (Needle-less Sheik is still a high tier character, and I'll laugh at anyone who says otherwise.)

No, the source of Sheik's disproportionate strength lies entirely in the d-throw uair 50/50. It allows her to subvert her ordinary kill option weakness that is otherwise prevalent throughout her design, all at the hands of her terrific grab game. It's exactly the same as pre-patch Diddy, but only half as much of a problem. (Literally and figuratively.)

If you add a few frames of endlag to d-throw, Sheik suddenly doesn't get free kills on a coin flip. She is still a high-tier, just like Needle-less Sheik; I'd speculate they'd be similarly tiered. But we are comparing adding a few frames of lag to a throw to removing the game's best special move from a character's kit.

The contrast of those two solutions--the fact that the results of each could be remotely comparable--should make it the nature of the problem clear to everyone.

 

[Charoite]

Well of course they'll be the biggest winners, but notice that the list you mentioned is a lot longer than the 2 chars currently in charge, and keep in mind that I'm not suggesting anything close to the nerfs Diddy got, so it's not as if they won't still be there and present most of the same challenges they do currently. Cloud I think is probably getting nerfs since he seems too good too soon against a cast with a year's head start. I predict limit is going to be made to charge slower, similar to the Rosa nerf from 3DS to Wii U, though it shouldn't be quite as significant.

O yes but i say that nerfing these two will do nothing to the bottom tier on a national level even mid tiers, and i think that the balance team prioritises helping mid or low tiers characters, so for them is more important helping underwhelming characters than nerfing the top so already good or decent characters(high tiers) become better, of course if i expect nerfs to and, but only when they finish with the majority of the bad characters, sorry if i didn't explain myself in my other post.

 

[Ffamran]

I just realized something: is Sheik the only character to have a jump during a recovery move? (Despite Lavani mentioning it all the time) When I say jump, I'm not talking about how Ryu jumps up with Shoryuken, ZSS jumping during Flip Kick, or even Yoshi with his Egg Toss, but a jump-jump. Technically, that means Sheik has 3 jumps. No other character has this... Well, there could have been a character who could have had this and his name is Ken. Also, Falco's Fast Fire Bird sort of does this, but I blame momentum since he fires forward much faster - looks like he's getting shot out of a cannon. Now, I'm just thinking about the implications if say, Roy's Blazer had him hop up a bit before using it in the air or if Dr. Mario and Luigi prepared their Dr. Tornado and Luigi Cyclone, Wario prepared his Corkscrew, or Wii Fit Trainer prepared her Super Hoop by doing a spinning jump sort of like Falco's first jump animation... I just realized how Falco's spin during his first jump would look way better if it was his double jump... It would help their recoveries, especially vertically, but there is the issue of Sheik being invincible for that part... Anyway, just something I wanted to say.

 

[Teshie U]

I'd argue that both are fine how they are. Both kill and Villager already has plenty of more reliable kill options as it is. Point blank fair and bair, sweet and sour spot 2-3 turnip uair/dair, nair off stage, bthrow, Lloid ride, axe chop, fsmash, tree growth, timber, and point blank dtilt along with those two. Both serve their purpose well. Both are good out of spot dodges and cancelling out many ledge options, not to mention both are easy to do out of a dsmash bury. As far as a high tier character goes, Villager is really balanced in my opinion. If I had to fix anything of his, it would probably be the end lag of his grab but, given how many options the character already has, it's debatable if this is even necessary.

Its not that they are weak, its when they don't work. People falling out of Uptilt or Upsmash can punish you for hitting them with the move.

I never really understand when people say Bowser has no landing options. His aren't amazing, but I wouldn't lump him together with DK. He at least has the choice/threat of a dair/Bowser bomb, the choice of using Bowser Bomb to retreat to the ledge, or landing with the Flying Slam grab. It's options that characters to be wary of with Bowser that they don't have to for DK.

Laggy slow options like Dair and Bowser Bomb won't help vs top tiers that are quickly putting out low lag Uairs and moving around on the ground to catch your landing. Aerial Flying Slam is quite slow so you can still just frame data it if he gets close and tries it. Once he reaches a certain distance from the ground, his slow aerials basically mean its all dead frames.

Anyone can go to the ledge, they are both bad at returning from there too.

 

[Strong-Arm]

I would deeply enjoy those changes to happen. I just think this patch will be similar to the last in the sense that we wont see many (or maybe we wont see any) nerfs. Only time will tell, but I feel Sheik needs at least some minor nerfs to make her at least a little more "fair" so to speak.

Also I find Sheiks Up-B to be really ridiculous. Not only is it a possible kill move, but its near impossible to punish due to invincibility frames during basically the entire thing except start up and at the end. The wind box is there too.

 

[Thinkaman]

Only time will tell, but I feel Sheik needs at least some minor nerfs to make her at least a little more "fair" so to speak.

The last thing Sheik needs is more fair.

(This one is for @Patriot Duck)

 

[Strong-Arm]

The last thing Sheik needs is more fair.

(This one is for @Patriot Duck)

 

[TTTTTsd]

The last thing Sheik needs is more fair.

(This one is for @Patriot Duck)

Yeah I think beyond your suggestion I don't think she needles anything.......god, I'm so sorry.

To make this post actually worthwhile, we also had Marth and ZSS doing well in teams outside of the Cloud chaos. I wanna know, outside of Pugwest and Marss brotherhood, is the character duo actually really strong? I really want to see more of them, or more in particular, more of Marth in doubles. I think Doubles might be Marth's more optimal area, perhaps, but time will tell I suppose. My personal thoughts are just that doubles in general is beneficial for Marth based on what I saw, though.

 

[Ffamran]

No, the source of Sheik's disproportionate strength lies entirely in the d-throw uair 50/50. It allows her to subvert her ordinary kill option weakness that is otherwise prevalent throughout her design, all at the hands of her terrific grab game. It's exactly the same as pre-patch Diddy, but only half as much of a problem. (Literally and figuratively.)

If you add a few frames of endlag to d-throw, Sheik suddenly doesn't get free kills on a coin flip. She is still a high-tier, just like Needle-less Sheik; I'd speculate they'd be similarly tiered. But we are comparing adding a few frames of lag to a throw to removing the game's best special move from a character's kit.

The contrast of those two solutions--the fact that the results of each could be remotely comparable--should make it the nature of the problem clear to everyone.

Or they could change it so Sheik can only use Uair from U-throw and Vanish with D-throw. It would still be a 50/50, but now you get a visual queue. Also, the sad part is her D-throw has the second-most recovery for her throws, 23, to U-throw's 29. They could, I don't know, make it so D-throw's recovery is 26-ish while U-throw's 24. Maybe swap/alter the angles too since 85 degrees on U-throw with much lower recovery means DIing Sheik just got worse.

Also, for Pete's sake, developers, make it so ZSS's U-throw is her Uair to Boost Kick setup throw. It would look much more fluid since she flips you from the ground to start flipping you again. At the same time, it's really, really horrendous for a throw to have twice the amount of recovery, 36, all other throws that character has. It's also really weird how an axe kick like that can pop you up and takes little time to recover when a back flip that has her land on her feet ready to jump up and start her murder spree makes her stand around like a confused chicken which she technically is, but that's another story. The stupid thing is this is what's also happening to Sheik... Weird axe kick flippy-thing takes less time then a hand stand spring... thing doesn't. It's all aesthetic, but ZSS's U-throw should be her combo throw like how Ike's uppercut U-throw is while her D-throw should be her "kill" throw like how Ike pulling off a Bruce Lee stomp with D-throw will likely kill you.

 

[Mr. Johan]

People would be a lot happier if Sheik got hit in more ways than Needles. I don't think anyone would complain if Sheik couldn't throw out an aerial after Bouncing Fish in the same jump, or if the jumping lunge in the startup of Vanish was just flat out removed.

Same goes for Zamus in a few ways. Name me one person who would be aggravated if Zamus lost double jump height, air speed, Flip Jump height and distance, Tether range, or any combination of the four.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Needle Storm is one of the game's most obnoxious moves, but I don't think they are the source of Sheik's dominance. As an extreme showcase of this notion, removing fair would ruin Sheik far more than removing Needles. (Needle-less Sheik is still a high tier character, and I'll laugh at anyone who says otherwise.)

No, the source of Sheik's disproportionate strength lies entirely in the d-throw uair 50/50. It allows her to subvert her ordinary kill option weakness that is otherwise prevalent throughout her design, all at the hands of her terrific grab game. It's exactly the same as pre-patch Diddy, but only half as much of a problem. (Literally and figuratively.)

If you add a few frames of endlag to d-throw, Sheik suddenly doesn't get free kills on a coin flip. She is still a high-tier, just like Needle-less Sheik; I'd speculate they'd be similarly tiered. But we are comparing adding a few frames of lag to a throw to removing the game's best special move from a character's kit.

The contrast of those two solutions--the fact that the results of each could be remotely comparable--should make it the nature of the problem clear to everyone.

The main issue with that isn't that you're wrong from a balance perspective - you're not. The issue is that a Sheik with needles but without reliable kill confirms is going to be less interesting to play/watch than the reverse, and that I think is a big reason as to why people shy away from suggesting changes in that direction. Needles are only exciting when used aerially to confirm into BF. Nerfing "lame" aspects like her strong camp game or excessively safe recovery are more popular because on some level the playerbase accepts the idea of Sheik being top tier and want her to be changed to be more of a "fun" top tier more than they want her dethroned. I can't say that I'm exempt from that either.

 

[Ffamran]

People would be a lot happier if Sheik got hit in more ways than Needles. I don't think anyone would complain if Sheik couldn't throw out an aerial after Bouncing Fish in the same jump, or if the jumping lunge in the startup of Vanish was just flat out removed.

There's also Bouncing Fish's I-frames and weird hitbox... I kind of get that since she's flipping into you, it should have an arcing hitbox like Marth's Fair, but at the same time, it always seems to hit weirdly like the hitbox is just weird... and too generous.

Wow... forgot that her Smashes are that pathetic... Hey, maybe if we made it so Bouncing Fish did 10% and her Side Smash, Down Smash, and Bair - Seriously, why was this nerfed when Fair was the problem? - were more usable/stronger as compensation, maybe Sheik players could figure out weird setups for Side and Down Smash... I mean, they've got Up Smash down... Speaking of Up Smash, patch 1.1.4 or whatever needs to fix Greninja's Up Smash and how it hits people on platforms. Falco got that treatment, so Greninja needs it now since it's really stupid for a move like that to only do 5%.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I never really understand when people say Bowser has no landing options. His aren't amazing, but I wouldn't lump him together with DK. He at least has the choice/threat of a dair/Bowser bomb, the choice of using Bowser Bomb to retreat to the ledge, or landing with the Flying Slam grab. It's options that characters to be wary of with Bowser that they don't have to for DK.

Baiting a dair or Bowser Bomb is an easy hard punish because the landing lag for both attacks is some of the worst in the game and Bowser Bomb to the ledge just brings up the situation of how to correctly get back on the stage. His landing options are bad too because he's heavy and his aerial mobility isn't that great so a decision has to be made fast when he finds himself up the air. This is why Sonic and ZSS suck for both characters.

 

[Charoite]

People would be a lot happier if Sheik got hit in more ways than Needles. I don't think anyone would complain if Sheik couldn't throw out an aerial after Bouncing Fish in the same jump, or if the jumping lunge in the startup of Vanish was just flat out removed.

Same goes for Zamus in a few ways. Name me one person who would be aggravated if Zamus lost double jump height, air speed, Flip Jump height and distance, Tether range, or any combination of the four.

i am sure every Sheik, and ZSS would be mad if they change their character to have less options and need to relearning them, even if they are top tier, so saying that nobody would complain is false.

 

[R3D3MON]

The main issue with that isn't that you're wrong from a balance perspective - you're not. The issue is that a Sheik with needles but without reliable kill confirms is going to be less interesting to play/watch than the reverse, and that I think is a big reason as to why people shy away from suggesting changes in that direction. Needles are only exciting when used aerially to confirm into BF. Nerfing "lame" aspects like her strong camp game or excessively safe recovery are more popular because on some level the playerbase accepts the idea of Sheik being top tier and want her to be changed to be more of a "fun" top tier more than they want her dethroned. I can't say that I'm exempt from that either.

This guy gets it.
I think trying to balance every top tier character will ultimately make this game very slow and boring. I mean, I see more and more people surviving at ridiculous percents right now than even a few months ago, and I think people will learn to survive even better with better DI/SDI and learning how to properly escape certain death combos/kill setups in the future.
On the topic of nerfing sheik...it would really suck for sheik players to lose one of their most reliable kill setups (that actually doesn't even work properly at proper percents, as stated before in this thread...). On the topic of d-throw>uair 50:50, I think it becomes way more reliable with rage, so I think nerfing the effects of rage would be a better way of going about balancing sheik than actually nerfing the character itself (fixing rage would also fix the jankyness with ZSS's up-b, mario's up-b, ike's up-b, etc, etc...).

There's also Bouncing Fish's I-frames and weird hitbox... I kind of get that since she's flipping into you, it should have an arcing hitbox like Marth's Fair, but at the same time, it always seems to hit weirdly like the hitbox is just weird... and too generous.

Wow... forgot that her Smashes are that pathetic... Hey, maybe if we made it so Bouncing Fish did 10% and her Side Smash, Down Smash, and Bair - Seriously, why was this nerfed when Fair was the problem? - were more usable/stronger as compensation, maybe Sheik players could figure out weird setups for Side and Down Smash... I mean, they've got Up Smash down... Speaking of Up Smash, patch 1.1.4 or whatever needs to fix Greninja's Up Smash and how it hits people on platforms. Falco got that treatment, so Greninja needs it now since it's really stupid for a move like that to only do 5%.

I think buffing her smashes would be one of the worst ideas in the game. Her smashes have mediocre startup frames and TERRIBLE endlag, so using her smash moves in almost any situation will get you punished (i.e. I have seen plenty of players f-smash or d-smash on a non-perfect shield at high percents out of frustration, only to get punished VERY hard). The only setups I've seen with her smash attacks is her up-smash, and you need to hit the sweetspot of up-smash (which can be very hard to actually land, since it is deceptively small). If you don't get the sweetspot, up-smash will basically not kill until 150%, which is really ridiculous and frustrating, to be honest.

Nerf her recovery moves (i.e. vanish) by getting rid of safety. Otherwise I think she is fine because nerfing her other aspects will really exacerbate her rather-apparent and rather-significant weaknesses (i.e. killing...).

Baiting a dair or Bowser Bomb is an easy hard punish because the landing lag for both attacks is some of the worst in the game and Bowser Bomb to the ledge just brings up the situation of how to correctly get back on the stage. His landing options are bad too because he's heavy and his aerial mobility isn't that great so a decision has to be made fast when he finds himself up the air. This is why Sonic and ZSS suck for both characters.

This is definitely true. Basically his landing options are only usable in laggy for glory situations where people can get away with many things that you can't do otherwise in an offline gameplay. I would really love it if bowser had the ability to control the speed at which his dair descended. I think that would open up alot of landing options and mindgame situations where people will have to guess how bowser players will use their dair. I would also love it if G&W also got this option with his dair, since he already had this ability back in brawl (I'm not sure why sakurai removed this feature on his dair, so please sakurai...).

 

[Thinkaman]

The main issue with that isn't that you're wrong from a balance perspective - you're not. The issue is that a Sheik with needles but without reliable kill confirms is going to be less interesting to play/watch than the reverse, and that I think is a big reason as to why people shy away from suggesting changes in that direction. Needles are only exciting when used aerially to confirm into BF. Nerfing "lame" aspects like her strong camp game or excessively safe recovery are more popular because on some level the playerbase accepts the idea of Sheik being top tier and want her to be changed to be more of a "fun" top tier more than they want her dethroned. I can't say that I'm exempt from that either.

I mean, I'm still okay with nerfing grounded Needles in key regards because they are dumb. (I even wrote a paragraph about it in that post, but deleted it because it blurred the message.) Let's just not pretend we are doing it for purely balance reasons or that this alone will "fix" Sheik.

I think trying to balance every top tier character will ultimately make this game very slow and boring.

This is only true if we commit slippery slope fallacy, and assume that "Well, we'll never stop nerfing since there will always be SOME best character!"

No, that's nonsense. Modest nerfs to Diddy were appropriate. Smaller nerfs to Sheik would be appropriate. Yet smaller nerfs to ZSS may be appropriate. Beyond that, the most we'd probably even consider is SDI changes on cases that prove abusive. Responsible nerfs converge to zero very quickly at the top end.

If we kept giving Diddy-sized nerfs to everyone ad infinitum, of course that would be super awful and lead to bad places. But I don't think anyone is advocating that, and it certainly doesn't seem to be the dev team's behavior.

 

[Fatmanonice]

In a weird way, I don't think Shiek is the biggest gatekeeper anymore. When it comes to limiting character success, I'd argue that are worse. is hard but I feel like a lot of the top players have adjusted more to her so that match ups aren't a matter of getting BTFO anymore but instead are more about scrapping by. is the crypt keeper for heavy weights and characters with limited off stage options and is monkey butts for characters that heavily rely on projectiles or lack range. is an all around a pain but I feel set the standards for potential viability, with the saving grace being that Sheiks are a dime a dozen while the other two are much more scarce.

 

[Ffamran]

Her smashes have mediocre startup frames and TERRIBLE endlag, so using her smash moves in almost any situation will get you punished (i.e. I have seen plenty of players f-smash or d-smash on a non-perfect shield at high percents out of frustration, only to get punished VERY hard).

No they don't. They have average recovery frames, 37 for Up Smash and 35 for Down Smash, for Smashes except for Side Smash which has 23 which is pretty above-average. For startup, they're all below average, none of them got above frame 12, which for Sheik is slow when almost all of her moves are fast on startup. Her Smashes are pathetically weak compared to her other options like Bouncing Fish. I said to nerf her Bouncing Fish from 12% to 10% and compensate by better Side and Down Smashes and a reversion of her Bair to pre-1.0.6? Bair. I didn't say make her Side Smash as strong as Ganondorf's or Down Smash invincible. Side Smash should at least connect better and Down Smash shouldn't do 9% total when there are Down Smashes like Luigi and Little Mac's that are much faster, safer, more spammable, and do 12% minimum.

Balancing should be re-tuning characters so they function in more "healthier" ways. You want butchering? Then look at launch Falco, Marth, and Meta Knight. Look at patch 1.0.4 Greninja and even patch 1.0.6? Diddy and Link. It wasn't until 1.0.8 that Diddy was re-tuned and not blatantly nerfed and it wasn't until 1.1.1? that Greninja was re-tuned, especially for Water Shuriken. Link on the other hand has been getting incremental buffs to Spin Attack while having moves like Fair and D-throw were re-tuned. You also don't straight-up buff a character in stupid, exclusive ways like what they did to DK's cargo U-throw. Yeah, let's ignore his hitboxes on his Smashes or the fact he has I-frames on pretty much everything and more active I-frames than Bowser, a naturally armored character because Bowser's a freaking scaled turtle-dragon while DK's just a gorilla.

 

[Routa]

And it would be really nice that the garbage () and other underwhelming characters got buffs.

No need for buffs. Just let them use any size and moveset and boom... Instant mid tier.

Edit: well some linking and hitbox tweaks are needed.

 

[LordShade67]

Yeah I think beyond your suggestion I don't think she needles anything.......god, I'm so sorry.

To make this post actually worthwhile, we also had Marth and ZSS doing well in teams outside of the Cloud chaos. I wanna know, outside of Pugwest and Marss brotherhood, is the character duo actually really strong? I really want to see more of them, or more in particular, more of Marth in doubles. I think Doubles might be Marth's more optimal area, perhaps, but time will tell I suppose. My personal thoughts are just that doubles in general is beneficial for Marth based on what I saw, though.

Pugwest has a number of vids on GameUndergroundStore's YT channel, if you want references. Singles AND Doubles.

 

[Dr.Smex]

I feel like if Nintendo was really paying attention to this tournament they should do something about gravitational pull. This move should not have so much power with so little risk as it is now, it alone can shutdown the neutral of some characters and gimping Ness/Lucas's recovery without much thought required feels like an oversight by the devs tbh

 

[bc1910]

I feel like if Nintendo was really paying attention to this tournament they should do something about gravitational pull. This move should not have so much power with so little risk as it is now, it alone can shutdown the neutral of some characters and gimping Ness/Lucas's recovery without much thought required feels like an oversight by the devs tbh

Far from an oversight, it's completely intended behaviour.

There's an in-game tip encouraging Rosalina players to use GP when Ness tries to recover using PK Thunder.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The oversight is Rosalina destroying characters that lack good range, which is another one of Ness' weaknesses. GP is like the frosting on the cake for that MU.
Remember PK Thunder 1 can also be reflected, Caped, Absorbed, Pocketed, or simply intercepted. His recovery is not necessarily bad, but it is quite fragile.

 

[bc1910]

Talking about how GP intercepts PKT1 in the same sentence as how badly it messes up certain characters' neutrals (which may very well be an oversight) explicitly includes the PKT1 behaviour within that "oversight" statement.

Could just be poor wording/grammar on his part but it still needs to be pointed out that the way GP affects PKT1 is completely intended and unlikely to change.

 

[Luco]

The thing is, Rosa is an intended counter to Ness, and one of the few cases I can think of where it's almost explicitly put out there by the developers. I can't really think of many other character-specific tips that encourage the use of a particular tool against a certain character (although as I'm writing this I'm starting to think maybe there is one with regards to FLUDD and LM or someone similar).

On a positive note I'm happy to see Ness re-cementing himself where he needs to be. Also to whoever said that most of these results reflect what we'd already know, I'd disagree and point to TL and DK, ESPECIALLY the former. I legitimately think TL is between 20th-25th and that's a lot better than I think a lot of people used to have him as (somewhere in the mid 30's).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Needle Storm is one of the game's most obnoxious moves, but I don't think they are the source of Sheik's dominance.

They are a huge part of it though. Needle Storm is the best projectile in the game and gives her the freedom to never approach if she doesn't feel like it. If she didn't have that luxury some of her matchups would change by a good bit imo, and not in her favor.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The thing is, Rosa is an intended counter to Ness, and one of the few cases I can think of where it's almost explicitly put out there by the developers. I can't really think of many other character-specific tips that encourage the use of a particular tool against a certain character (although as I'm writing this I'm starting to think maybe there is one with regards to FLUDD and LM or someone similar).

On a positive note I'm happy to see Ness re-cementing himself where he needs to be. Also to whoever said that most of these results reflect what we'd already know, I'd disagree and point to TL and DK, ESPECIALLY the former. I legitimately think TL is between 20th-25th and that's a lot better than I think a lot of people used to have him as (somewhere in the mid 30's).

I honestly think TL is somewhere between 7 and 17
He has a strong neutral, an above average punish game, good damage output, great kill power (that back throw though), and you cant effectively camp him because he can just sit and crouch with his ridiculous shield. His biggest issue is mostly his recovery which still isn't easily gimped without a good spike because of the disjoint. The only characters that can effectively shut him down are villager, rosaluma, and fox sorta (if he messes up hes going to eat 50% worth of uptilts)

 

[Spinosaurus]

I don't exactly see how Toon Link has good damage output.

 

[HoSmash4]

I don't exactly see how Toon Link has good damage output.

Utilt utilt utilt upsmash. 30-40% done
Bomb to follow up + chip damage - 70-80%
You're at death % to fsmash.

 

[Yikarur]

looks like a dissapointing mid tier.

Also Yoshi is not high tier. Go figure. Not like I've thought this the whole time or anything.

We have at least 3 Yoshis in Top64 that I know of. Thats an amazing feed. Past Top64 is a gigantic player barrier. Not even Abadango made it into Top32 so Top64 is really not a bad result. We should really collect the Top64 character results because they are an important statistic.
Yoshi is a solid high tier and I think the day he'll shine will come.

Sheik becomes an oppressive force solely because of needles. They combine with her kit to make it too much for one character, to be able to go in hard and camp better than anyone else, all while being almost ungimpable

Needles and dthrow upair are the main problems.
Needles force basically everyone to approach a character with an aerial that beats almost everything and an insane grab reward. If you don't have to approach Sheik everything she does automatically becomes a little bit riskier and that would be balanced again. A character with such a damage output should not be able to kill from a dthrow at such low%.

And at people who say the bair nerf was wrong: The bair nerf was what EVERYONE was wanting at that time if you remember. Why do people forget so fast? And Sheik would be insane if she would still have her old bair.

And it would be really nice that the garbage tier () and other underwhelming characters got buffs.

Mii Gunner and Swordfighter are low mid tier at least. And not garbage tier. Mii Brawler is Top15...
... if tournaments finally run the correct rulesets. Poor Mii Mains. They Metagame cannot even advance. I could imagine Mii Gunner and Swordfighter being higher mid tier but their metagame doesn't advance because the rules screw them so not one is encouraged to play them, because they could be screwed by ruleset changes anytime.

Good thing Beast 6 allows at least one of their best sets (even though I don't like that solution; shoutouts at MLG for the best ruleset) but I think I'll be the only Brawler player there..[/QUOTE]

 

[HoSmash4]

We have at least 3 Yoshis in Top64 that I know of. Thats an amazing feed. Past Top64 is a gigantic player barrier. Not even Abadango made it into Top32 so Top64 is really not a bad result. We should really collect the Top64 character results because they are an important statistic.
Yoshi is a solid high tier and I think the day he'll shine will come.



Needles and dthrow upair are the main problems.
Needles force basically everyone to approach a character with an aerial that beats almost everything and an insane grab reward. If you don't have to approach Sheik everything she does automatically becomes a little bit riskier and that would be balanced again. A character with such a damage output should not be able to kill from a dthrow at such low%.

And at people who say the bair nerf was wrong: The bair nerf was what EVERYONE was wanting at that time if you remember. Why do people forget so fast? And Sheik would be insane if she would still have her old bair.




Mii Gunner and Swordfighter are low mid tier at least. And not garbage tier. Mii Brawler is Top15...
... if tournaments finally run the correct rulesets. Poor Mii Mains. They Metagame cannot even advance. I could imagine Mii Gunner and Swordfighter being higher mid tier but their metagame doesn't advance because the rules screw them so not one is encouraged to play them, because they could be screwed by ruleset changes anytime.

Good thing Beast 6 allows at least one of their best sets (even though I don't like that solution; shoutouts at MLG for the best ruleset) but I think I'll be the only Brawler player there..

Is Mii Brawler top 15 due to matchup unfamialrity or just because or his insane reward/early kill potential? There are so few mii brawler players so its hard to know. It's unfortunate that Mii's meta is being restricted and I cant see any future for them sadly because of how the smash community does not like any change to the system(except when it comes to nerfing zss/sheik)