Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[san.]

This is looking really nice. We finally got a merge of our competitive discussion and even rulings. Looking nice.

Sonic is still looking really strong even when 6WX got destroyed by Rago (don't really remember that Ike's name. Sorry. Don't murder me D: )

And I do think Ike vs Sonic is still even.

No idea. Sonic has a lot of what Ike doesn't like, but Sonic is often times in the air and can't afford to exchange blows with Ike without losing the battle of attrition. It should be even, but perhaps the shield stun change tipped things over towards Ike, since Sonic's spacing relied on cancelling into shield often. Rango has losses to I believe Kinzer, and has shown trouble with him in the past.

Ikes right now:

Ryo, Ryuga, San, SM, Rango

There is probably a cut off after Ryuga since me, SM, and Rango do not have consistent results in top tier regions. Me, SM, and Rango are likely relatively close to each other in terms of accomplishments.

Rango has set wins over ScaTT, Reflex, and Neos I believe, and wins his locals often. He is from the Georgia area.
SM has wins over VoiD, Rich Brown, Zan, and some others and has been improving a ton recently.
I have wins over MJG, Static Manny, and Chrim Foish.

Then there are others I don't have much experience with that I see PR'd, like ~GP and then Waldo if he went to more tournaments.

 

[momochuu]

Who do you main that "almost hard counters" Meta Knight?

greninja

 

[hypersonicJD]

Rosalina's future as a fixture in tournament play given the increased presence of Meta Knight and ZSS getting better with the latest patch. Will she always be a prominent fixture in high level play or do people predict she will fall off in due time like Ness did before her?

i actually agree with this opinion. Rosalina will fall of the tier list because of her losing match-ups (Captain Falcon, Zero Suit, Sheik, I think Ike. Maybe Pikachu). And since Sheik is really provinent and Ike is getting more and more representation. It's not going to be easy for her).

 

[FullMoon]

I don't think Greninja beats MK that badly but, well, I suppose Greninja is as good of a counter as it can get when you can avoid his death combos like the frog can.

Even then though, if MK hits Shuttle Loop just right we can't get away from it.

 

[Amadeus9]

Mk has a combo where you bthrow > dash attack > turnaround uair > fast fall bair > dtilts > utilt > death. It's pretty easy to do, as well.

video:

Fighters it works on:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Nzmg0KwnOi6_E5LUYk2o2pVrPIRyIWvcXXreZhFDE0E/edit?usp=sharing


I and others are able to consistently perform it on fighters it works on. Skilled players too.


Edit: also, Greninja doesn't beat mk that bad. It's just that our combos don't work properly on him so we have to win honestly.

 

[David Viran]

Mk has a combo where you bthrow > dash attack > turnaround uair > fast fall bair > dtilts > utilt > death. It's pretty easy to do, as well.

video:

Fighters it works on:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Nzmg0KwnOi6_E5LUYk2o2pVrPIRyIWvcXXreZhFDE0E/edit?usp=sharing


I and others are able to consistently perform it on fighters it works on. Skilled players too.


Edit: also, Greninja doesn't beat mk that bad. It's just that our combos don't work properly on him so we have to win honestly.

Am I missing something? Can't the bair be teched?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That 0-death seems fraudulent. Requires mass amount of stage room

 

[Amadeus9]

Am I missing something? Can't the bair be teched?

It is techable, yes - however this comes with two footnotes. The first is, it's extremely difficult to tech, because you cannot tech a landing while you are in hitstun, and because it happens very fast. The second is, this can also be done with a footstool, which isn't techable.

 

[Mario766]

If it isn't from a footstool, then it'd make sense if you could tech it. Those kind of things only really work if they footstool first.

 

[Amadeus9]

That 0-death seems fraudulent. Requires mass amount of stage room

This is a valid point, and it's also why final destination is my favorite stage to play on as MK. And it never gets banned x)

EDIT: Also, take note, that Falco is one of the hardest fighters to perform this on. Sheik, on the other hand... I could do this combo to a Sheik in my sleep.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

This is a valid point, and it's also why final destination is my favorite stage to play on as MK. And it never gets banned x)

EDIT: Also, take note, that Falco is one of the hardest fighters to perform this on. Sheik, on the other hand... I could do this combo to a Sheik in my sleep.

I mean, your opponent can ban fd. It looks like battlefield can shut it down. Also, the b-throw looks di-able. But I'll keep this in mind. But to be fair though, Meta Knight isn't the only character with a 0-death combo.

 

[Amadeus9]

I mean, your opponent can ban fd. It looks like battlefield can shut it down. Also, the b-throw looks di-able. But I'll keep this in mind. But to be fair though, Meta Knight isn't the only character with a 0-death combo.

The thing is, it doesn't matter where you take a Meta Knight, there's janky stuff he can do on any stage. On battlefield you can abuse Uair's autocancel with the platforms to extend the range a dash attack will kill at to as high as 50-60%. It's not just this combo... it's everything about the fighter. (Though this combo is pretty ridiculous...)

 

[FullMoon]

I find it funny that Greninja's just says "Not even worth it".

 

[Peppermint1201]

So what do you guys think of Captain Falcon's viability? Around the internet I've seen a lot of people place him in the upper echelon of B-Tier (Similar positioning to ROB, Villager, Peach, etc.) but I'm having trouble believing that's the case. In terms of results all he has outside of the 17th-7th range is 4th at Smash Con by Fatality, and his matchups seem extremely mediocre -- to my knowledge, I don't think he has a matchup higher than 45:55 with any character universally agreed on as very good, does he? (This is not rhetorical, I'm genuinely unsure)

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

The thing is, it doesn't matter where you take a Meta Knight, there's janky stuff he can do on any stage. On battlefield you can abuse Uair's autocancel with the platforms to extend the range a dash attack will kill at to as high as 50-60%. It's not just this combo... it's everything about the fighter. (Though this combo is pretty ridiculous...)

I don't doubt what you're saying, but if meta knight is so ridiculous, why isn't he top tier? Is it because people just don't know what he can do? Or is it because he isn't dominating the meta yet?

 

[TheJolteon]

So what do you guys think of Captain Falcon's viability? Around the internet I've seen a lot of people place him in the upper echelon of B-Tier (Similar positioning to ROB, Villager, Peach, etc.) but I'm having trouble believing that's the case. In terms of results all he has outside of the 17th-7th range is 4th at Smash Con by Fatality, and his matchups seem extremely mediocre -- to my knowledge, I don't think he has a matchup higher than 45:55 with any character universally agreed on as very good, does he? (This is not rhetorical, I'm genuinely unsure)

Captain Falcon does amazing against Rosalina and decent against Ness but Ness can do the same. Fatality and ZeRo are among the best of the falcons although ZeRo doesn't whip him out in tournies. Im sure there is a Japanese player who is really good with Falcon but I am probably oblivious to that. He is still a great character but against the top tiers he gets combed for days. However if you want the crowd on your side play Falcon.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

So what do you guys think of Captain Falcon's viability? Around the internet I've seen a lot of people place him in the upper echelon of B-Tier (Similar positioning to ROB, Villager, Peach, etc.) but I'm having trouble believing that's the case. In terms of results all he has outside of the 17th-7th range is 4th at Smash Con by Fatality, and his matchups seem extremely mediocre -- to my knowledge, I don't think he has a matchup higher than 45:55 with any character universally agreed on as very good, does he? (This is not rhetorical, I'm genuinely unsure)

I don't know much about falcon, but I've seen falcon do really well at tournaments. And most tier lists I've seen put him at around A-, but tier lists very a lot. Falcon seems to have a lot of rewarding combos, but he doesn't seem to have any safe ways of approaching. At least to my knowledge.

 

[Amadeus9]

I don't doubt what you're saying, but if meta knight is so ridiculous, why isn't he top tier? Is it because people just don't know what he can do? Or is it because he isn't dominating the meta yet?

He is top tier though? Most top players think he's top 10 in the game.

Also, I anticipated the response I'm getting to this combo. That's why I didn't post in in CCI until now. There's no way this combo can be questioned as being viable lol. @ZTD | TECHnology has been bodying sheiks in his region with it, and me and others on the MK boards use it in our locals and online.

 

[meleebrawler]

The thing is, it doesn't matter where you take a Meta Knight, there's janky stuff he can do on any stage. On battlefield you can abuse Uair's autocancel with the platforms to extend the range a dash attack will kill at to as high as 50-60%. It's not just this combo... it's everything about the fighter. (Though this combo is pretty ridiculous...)

Almost everybody can do some silly stuff with platforms. Usmashing through them is the most common, but in general being on a platform above your opponent is just a very disadvantageous position.

Here's a little known fact: Mewtwo can shield stab people with Shadow Ball by throwing it "through" the platform.

 

[Peppermint1201]

I don't know much about falcon, but I've seen falcon do really well at tournaments.

I directly addressed that in my original post -- all he has is 4th at Smash Con.

he doesn't seem to have any safe ways of approaching. At least to my knowledge.

I'm no Falcon expert myself, but he's pretty good at approaching, and is known to be a zone breaker. After all, he seems to do well vs. Rosa (Dabuz was afraid to pull his Rosa out vs Fatality at Smash Con).

 

[FlynnCL]

That Meta Knight 0-death reminds me of one that I've been messing around with. I even made a demonstration video of it a month or two back.

https://gfycat.com/WarmheartedIdleKiwi#

The people I play against were victims of it a few times but once they start to tech back-airs and DI the back-throw away it doesn't work. The video I posted also requires the full length of an Omega stage yet was also featuring no DI. You need so much space if you want to cover good DI on dash-attack or up-tilt.

Because it's based around no DI, (maybe) rage, missed techs and is stage dependant I don't think it's that huge of a deal.

Don't like the talk of nerfing, though. I'm not confident that future patches will do a good job at balancing Meta Knight's current design and it's not like he's dominating the scene either. I also don't believe his design is against Smash 4 and requires patches, there aren't that many Smash 4 fighter designs that are similar.

 

[meleebrawler]

Thing about Meta Knight is that he absolutely NEEDS the combos to be considered worthwhile competitively. If you don't know how to do them or pull them off consistently, his damage output and performance drop like a rock. Using him successfully at top level takes a lot more effort than it looks since he doesn't have much to fall back on if his combos are being dropped.

Basically he's a "difficult but awesome" character; his sick combos are tolerated because people know how hard it is to pull them off consistently, and how unforgiving MK is if you don't get them right. He's definitely not the kind of character you can just pick up and start beating FG noobs (and it doesn't help that lag makes the combos even harder to do).

 

[momochuu]

that MK combo is actually really hard to tech. the bair happens so fast and you hit the ground so fast that its hard to tech it.

 

[FullMoon]

Since we're on this topic though, what would be the best way to nerf MK so that's he's not as destructive but still good? Shuttle Loop as a move is fine I think, so I guess nerfing Up-Air?

I don't really know much about MK in-depth so I don't really know much about how he works.

 

[Apeirohaon]

on falcon: he gets a lot of results from japan (saiya and pichi are #20 and #22 respectively on the Umebura PR). Saiya got 7th at Sumabato 5 and 3rd at Sumabato 3; Pichi got 7th at Umebura 19 and 5th at Umebura 15/16
(random fact I found: a pichi is a type of armadillo)
in addition to 4th at SSC, Fatality got 9th at MLG, 7th at SKTAR 4, and 13th at TBH5

also Mr. ShinyUmbreon please don't use dark blue text, it's very hard to read on a black background

 

[Peppermint1201]

Since we're on this topic though, what would be the best way to nerf MK so that's he's not as destructive but still good? Shuttle Loop as a move is fine I think, so I guess nerfing Up-Air?

I don't really know much about MK in-depth so I don't really know much about how he works.

I would say to either make his dash attack require more commitment or change the angle of its knockback to be less conducive to combos.

 

[TriTails]

I don't think it's a good idea to discuss buffs/nerfs without linking something into the green topics because this counts as Hypothetical Changes.

Or I'm just understanding it wrong, but oh well.

 

[Kaladin]

Since we're on this topic though, what would be the best way to nerf MK so that's he's not as destructive but still good? Shuttle Loop as a move is fine I think, so I guess nerfing Up-Air?

I don't really know much about MK in-depth so I don't really know much about how he works.

I dunno how this would work, but somehow make it so the various death combos all start working 20-30% later (without giving him more destructive low % combos). However, he should still be able to kill very early if he successfully wins the mid range out of dash option control game.

That's his thing.

Really though... MK is fine as-is. Abadango was actually doing this stuff in tournament and it wasn't that big of a deal. Lucas similar things in theory, hell, peach has an infinite. This game has really high reward for top level technical skill/knowledge, and it works in the context of the game. Until someone can prove that MK is more polarizing than when it's last stock and you're at 40% and Lucario is at 200%, I say MK is a cool, unique character that has his place in the meta.


Of course... An argument could be made that he is that stupid. Fighting an optimal MK in the neutral at low% would feel a lot like being last hit/last stock. You know who this sounds a lot like?

Ryu.

MK kills earlier than Ryu from similar moves, yet the people reason say Ryu is so crazily good is because he kills so early off one little hit. Why isn't MK considered as good as him? Just thinking aloud...

 

[Jucchan]

So what do you guys think of Captain Falcon's viability? Around the internet I've seen a lot of people place him in the upper echelon of B-Tier (Similar positioning to ROB, Villager, Peach, etc.) but I'm having trouble believing that's the case. In terms of results all he has outside of the 17th-7th range is 4th at Smash Con by Fatality, and his matchups seem extremely mediocre -- to my knowledge, I don't think he has a matchup higher than 45:55 with any character universally agreed on as very good, does he? (This is not rhetorical, I'm genuinely unsure)

Captain Falcon does amazing against Rosalina and decent against Ness but Ness can do the same. Fatality and ZeRo are among the best of the falcons although ZeRo doesn't whip him out in tournies. Im sure there is a Japanese player who is really good with Falcon but I am probably oblivious to that. He is still a great character but against the top tiers he gets combed for days. However if you want the crowd on your side play Falcon.

Japan has a lot of high and mid-level Falcons. Pichi won the 96-man Waseda University tournament yesterday, and has multiple Umebura Top 6 or 8 finishes. YuriAIR was third at Karisuma 5, and Saiya was Top 8 at Sumabato 5. Nietono also uses Falcon when he feels like it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This is looking really nice. We finally got a merge of our competitive discussion and even rulings. Looking nice.

Sonic is still looking really strong even when 6WX got destroyed by Rago (don't really remember that Ike's name. Sorry. Don't murder me D: )

And I do think Ike vs Sonic is still even.

I think the tournament evidence is too strong at this point to be still calling Ike vs Sonic even.

Lets just take a look at things. We have Ryo, Ryuga, San, and now Rango all beating top level Sonics. Ryo and Ryuga have done it multiple times for sure against different Sonics, San has his one win and a bit more experience since then, Rango just got his first and it was a fairly sound beating as well. SM I don't know if he's faced any top level Sonics or not so I can't really say.

The other direction we have... Seagull Joe beating San. Which San would have won if he hadn't listen to bad CP advise and is the noticeable Ike main with the least amount of Sonic experience. So 1 win for Sonic in a "perfect storm" type setting (Seagull Joe going on a tear that tournament + the other things I mentioned) vs.... if you count every time Ryo beat Static Manny it might be approaching a dozen times at least? If Kinzer is considered a top level Sonic you can tack on a few more wins for Sonic (assuming those weren't the wifi matches Rango constantly had difficulty with), but not that many overall.

That's just too dominate not to call it an advantage for Ike at this point. Particularly with the evidence of Rango having lots of difficulty with Sonic before the latest patch added in on top of it all (where Ike still had a very dominate record before the last patch, but now Ikes that had problems were the MU are starting to win it as well, suggesting that the shield patch helped Ike more than Sonic in the MU). There's nothing suggesting in the results that its an even MU. Its noticeably tilted results wise and a MU that's played out oddly frequently.

Unless you're going to say that all of the Ike mains are noticeably better players than the Sonic mains.

 

[TriTails]

I dunno how this would work, but somehow make it so the various death combos all start working 20-30% later (without giving him more destructive low % combos). However, he should still be able to kill very early if he successfully wins the mid range out of dash option control game.
That's his thing.

Really though... MK is fine as-is. Abadango was actually doing this stuff in tournament and it wasn't that big of a deal. Lucas similar things in theory, hell, peach has an infinite. This game has really high reward for top level technical skill/knowledge, and it works in the context of the game. Until someone can prove that MK is more polarizing than when it's last stock and you're at 40% and Lucario is at 200%, I say MK is a cool, unique character that has his place in the meta.

Peach's infinite is like, U-air then fast-fall with precise timing then footstool then float cancel then U-air repeat.

That is nowhere near MK's U-air string in ease of use I imagine. Not saying MK's U-air stings are easy to do but Peach's infinite sure as hell look dang hard. I have yet to see it being used consistently in a tourney.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm expecting Metaknight nerfs soon, it stinks but as time goes forward I can understand it more and more. Did you know Metaknight has a true zero to death on sheik, zss, and fox? Now you know. Misdi a bthrow at 0 percent, and you're a goner. Over extend a little bit while you're at 20-40 percent? My low commitment dash attack will result in your death, when any other fighter would have gotten a few percent at most. Hang out on a platform too long? Utilt is gonna kill you. I love this fighter to death but... if he gets nerfed I won't even really feel bad.

This fighter does not belong in this game. His mechanics are so counter to smash 4's general design philosophy, he almost breaks the game on his own. I can say the same - on a lesser extent - about zss and ryu. But those fighters are functional even without their absurdities. I was so opposed to this view point... but it's looking very, very easy to side with...

Could you do me a favor and tell me what %'s Sheik dies at from up air chains to Shuttle Loop.

 

[FlynnCL]

Since we're on this topic though, what would be the best way to nerf MK so that's he's not as destructive but still good? Shuttle Loop as a move is fine I think, so I guess nerfing Up-Air?

I don't really know much about MK in-depth so I don't really know much about how he works.

I think almost any nerf to his main tools would cause a huge snowball effect. It's really not necessary.

Let's say dash-attack got increased end-lag or an altered trajectory. That'd make it unreliable. Dash-attack right now can already be DI'd to avoid follow-ups.

Or if up-air had an altered trajectory. You now have Shuttle Loop combos that only rely on poor DI. If by simply holding away now rids you of dying to Meta Knight's main juggling tool then why would you ever not do it?

Shuttle Loop covers a hilarious amount of vertical space and is strongest at its apex. Knowing this, they also gave him a few quick tools that keep opponents in the air. I really fail to see how they could balance him to not do these things unless they ruin almost every vertical trajectory attack he has, thereby completely going against his design.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

I think the tournament evidence is too strong at this point to be still calling Ike vs Sonic even.

Lets just take a look at things. We have Ryo, Ryuga, San, and now Rango all beating top level Sonics. Ryo and Ryuga have done it multiple times for sure against different Sonics, San has his one win and a bit more experience since then, Rango just got his first and it was a fairly sound beating as well. SM I don't know if he's faced any top level Sonics or not so I can't really say.

The other direction we have... Seagull Joe beating San. Which San would have won if he hadn't listen to bad CP advise and is the noticeable Ike main with the least amount of Sonic experience. So 1 win for Sonic in a "perfect storm" type setting (Seagull Joe going on a tear that tournament + the other things I mentioned) vs.... if you count every time Ryo beat Static Manny it might be approaching a dozen times at least? If Kinzer is considered a top level Sonic you can tack on a few more wins for Sonic (assuming those weren't the wifi matches Rango constantly had difficulty with), but not that many overall.

That's just too dominate not to call it an advantage for Ike at this point. Particularly with the evidence of Rango having lots of difficulty with Sonic before the latest patch added in on top of it all (where Ike still had a very dominate record before the last patch, but now Ikes that had problems were the MU are starting to win it as well, suggesting that the shield patch helped Ike more than Sonic in the MU). There's nothing suggesting in the results that its an even MU. Its noticeably tilted results wise and a MU that's played out oddly frequently.

Huh, interesting. Sonic is my main's worst matchup, I've been looking for good secondaries, it seems that the Ike vs Sonic matchup has more results in Ike's favor. What makes this matchup good for Ike?

Unless you're going to say that all of the Ike mains are noticeably better players than the Sonic mains.

Well, Ike is more difficult to play than sonic...

also Mr. ShinyUmbreon please don't use dark blue text, it's very hard to read on a black background

I've never had trouble reading my posts. If it's so hard to read, why is it allowed as an option?

 

[Kaladin]

I've never had trouble reading my posts. If it's so hard to read, why is it allowed as an option?

Flawless logic/ It really is quite difficult to read and actually hurts my eyes a bit. I think everyone would appreciate it if you used a different color.

 

[Ghostbone]

Adding onto the MK thing.

Dash attack > uair > bair > d-tilt lock > u-tilt/dash attack > death is very very good.

It's hard to tech bair because you should probably be spamming air-dodge or nair or something that will get you out of a uair string (not enough hitstun at that point) which should mess up your tech timing.
And even if you expect the bair, it works with either one or two hits, which depends on when MK fast falls/the height you're at. So at best it's a 50/50 if you expect it and can time it perfectly.

Also against certain characters he can 0 > death them from d-throw at 0 if he reads DI with bair > d-tilt locks.
D-throw > bair > d-tilt jab reset true combos if they don't DI away (assuming no tech obviously). And d-throw > dash attack > uair > bair jab lock works against other DI soooooo.....
Edit: Vid of d-throw > bair thing

Could you do me a favor and tell me what %'s Sheik dies at from up air chains to Shuttle Loop.

Earliest is 25% iirc (maybe 26?) without rage
Late dash attack > 5 uairs, first two fast fallen.

 

[meleebrawler]

I dunno how this would work, but somehow make it so the various death combos all start working 20-30% later (without giving him more destructive low % combos). However, he should still be able to kill very early if he successfully wins the mid range out of dash option control game.

That's his thing.

Really though... MK is fine as-is. Abadango was actually doing this stuff in tournament and it wasn't that big of a deal. Lucas similar things in theory, hell, peach has an infinite. This game has really high reward for top level technical skill/knowledge, and it works in the context of the game. Until someone can prove that MK is more polarizing than when it's last stock and you're at 40% and Lucario is at 200%, I say MK is a cool, unique character that has his place in the meta.


Of course... An argument could be made that he is that stupid. Fighting an optimal MK in the neutral at low% would feel a lot like being last hit/last stock. You know who this sounds a lot like?

Ryu.

MK kills earlier than Ryu from similar moves, yet the people reason say Ryu is so crazily good is because he kills so early off one little hit. Why isn't MK considered as good as him? Just thinking aloud...

Because sick combos are basically all Meta Knight has. Ryu on the other hand can just raise damage through proper spacing due to how much damage-per-hit he has.

 

[Ulevo]

I see your opponents have not realized to air dodge the back air after up air.

Honestly, seeing this amount of misinformation spread from Meta Knight mains is disappointing.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Flawless logic/ It really is quite difficult to read and actually hurts my eyes a bit. I think everyone would appreciate it if you used a different color.

I see your point, but you're doing it deliberately. Is light blue acceptable to you, or does my text have to be white?

 

[Ghostbone]

I see your opponents have not realized to air dodge the back air after up air.

Honestly, seeing this amount of misinformation spread from Meta Knight mains is disappointing.

A. Since when can they air-dodge uair > bair? Maybe at low %s, certainly not when MK has some rage though.
B. Even if they could they'd always land in air-dodge lag so MK would still get a free punish.