Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Kaladin]

I see your opponents have not realized to air dodge the back air after up air.

Honestly, seeing this amount of misinformation spread from Meta Knight mains is disappointing.

I was watching Abadango's stream about a month ago, and he was labbing the up air to back air jab locks and I asked if you could air dodge out, he said no, and proceeded to demonstrate by mashing air dodge on a second controller.

I see your point, but you're doing it deliberately. Is light blue acceptable to you, or does my text have to be white?

This is much better, thanks

Edit: ...In other news, Atomsk's DDD is currently doing work in top 32 of Ktar.

 

[Ulevo]

A. Since when can they air-dodge uair > bair? Maybe at low %s, certainly not when MK has some rage though.
B. Even if they could they'd always land in air-dodge lag so MK would still get a free punish.

It is %'s dependent, will not usually work at the %'s where an up air can position for a back air, and can be acted out of by mashing A or teching.

I was watching Abadango's stream about a month ago, and he was labbing the up air to back air jab locks and I asked if you could air dodge out, he said no, and proceeded to demonstrate by mashing air dodge on a second controller.



This is much better, thanks

Edit: ...In other news, Atomsk's DDD is currently doing work in top 32 of Ktar.

My opponents demonstrate by actively air dodging out of it. Again, it is % dependent, but it is not reliable against opponents who expect it. Raw back air reads are typically better.

 

[Amadeus9]

Could you do me a favor and tell me what %'s Sheik dies at from up air chains to Shuttle Loop.

To utilt it's like, 28% to 34%.

 

[Ulevo]

To utilt it's like, 28% to 34%.

Not even close.

 

[Nu~]

Alright, I'm convinced.

How does meta knight NOT go even with (or possibly have the advantage against) shiek?

Sure, shiek has the superior neutral but considering the fact that meta knight can end shiek's life by winning the nuetral 1, maybe 2 times (with his incredibly safe dash grab and dash attack) how is he at a disadvantage? She has trouble escaping all of his combos/juggles, he can combat her offstage like no other character...

I know that many meta knight mains like to claim that needle camping ruins his life, but why does meta knight care that much about needles when he can opt to remain airborne until sheik comes close? The only way I see needle camping becoming a problem is of shiek has a significant lead.

I'm genuinely curious. Can someone explain to me why meta knight loses this matchup?

 

[Kaladin]

Not even close.

Please, substantiate your claims with video evidence. Everyone in this thread, including other MK mains, seems to disagree with you based on both tournament results and training room shenanigans.

More evidence to Ike beating Sonic: Ryo just beat Manny 2-1.

Edit 1: Turns out the set is Bo5. Whoops.

Edit 2: Make that 3-2 Ryo's favor.

 

[Ulevo]

Please, substantiate your claims with video evidence. Everyone in this thread, including other MK mains, seems to disagree with you based on both tournament results and training room shenanigans.

There is a strong sense of irony here.

No, I do not think I will. For the audience my comments were directed towards, this will suffice. I encourage you to believe I am telling nonsense if that is what you would prefer.

 

[Y2Kay]

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Previous Threads:
http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-ratings-v2-competitive-impressions.410551/
http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-impressions-mlg-finals.420852/
http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-impressions-tbh5.419494/
http://smashboards.com/threads/evo-2kxv-competitive-impressions.410539/
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/

These new rules are interesting, it seems you've adapted them for the problems of the last thread eh?

Since we're on this topic though, what would be the best way to nerf MK so that's he's not as destructive but still good? Shuttle Loop as a move is fine I think, so I guess nerfing Up-Air?

I don't really know much about MK in-depth so I don't really know much about how he works.

I don't really think anyone needs to be nerfed really. I was thinking Sheik, but I don't know if we can really nerf her without crippling her. Besides maybe a Luma and Ryu nerf, I think we're good for now.

watch me jinx this and some groundbreaking tech comes out lol

Not even close.

then what is then? jeez what's point of telling someone their wrong when you don't corret them?

 

[Amadeus9]

There is a strong sense of irony here.

No, I do not think I will. For the audience my comments were directed towards, this will suffice. I encourage you to believe I am telling nonsense if that is what you would prefer.

The new rules on this thread prevent me from flaming

Friend, you haven't done anything to substantiate anything you have said. Can we start from the top?

 

[Peppermint1201]

Japan has a lot of high and mid-level Falcons. Pichi won the 96-man Waseda University tournament yesterday, and has multiple Umebura Top 6 or 8 finishes. YuriAIR was third at Karisuma 5, and Saiya was Top 8 at Sumabato 5. Nietono also uses Falcon when he feels like it.

Hmm, that's very interesting. At least Captain Falcon has some results. That being said, his matchup spread is still lackluster and he's still lacking in American results as well.

 

[Blobface]

We should really move past this "Sheik has no even matchups" thing.

Melee Fox is a horrible abomination that's only not universally picked because our hands don't have fast enough fingers, and he's still agreed to have even matchups. Considering that Sheik is several parsecs away from Fox in power, the concept of her winning every matchup doesn't make any sense.

Having even matchups doesn't necessarily take her out of #1 either. She can have even matchups and still have the best overall matchup spread in the game.

 

[ATH_]

Japan has a lot of high and mid-level Falcons. Pichi won the 96-man Waseda University tournament yesterday, and has multiple Umebura Top 6 or 8 finishes. YuriAIR was third at Karisuma 5, and Saiya was Top 8 at Sumabato 5. Nietono also uses Falcon when he feels like it.

Are there any videos of this Falcon? I am very interested in seeing this.
Also, any notable tournament games in which Zero used his Falcon (and wasn't just messing around)? I remember it happening with M2K and I think Nakat once.

Falcon is sadly quite underused as a main in the United States, while there are a few, none that really show what he's capable of past the knee and up air.

 

[Apeirohaon]

Are there any videos of this Falcon? I am very interested in seeing this.
Also, any notable tournament games in which Zero used his Falcon (and wasn't just messing around)? I remember it happening with M2K and I think Nakat once.

Falcon is sadly quite underused as a main in the United States, while there are a few, none that really show what he's capable of past the knee and up air.

Saiya and Pichi

Saiya vs Edge (Sheik)
Saiya vs 9B (Ryu)
Saiya vs Abadango (Pac)

Pichi vs Brood (DHD)
Pichi vs Rain (Sheik)
Pichi vs Some (Greninja)

 

[Dagon97]

Are there any videos of this Falcon? I am very interested in seeing this.
Also, any notable tournament games in which Zero used his Falcon (and wasn't just messing around)? I remember it happening with M2K and I think Nakat once.

Falcon is sadly quite underused as a main in the United States, while there are a few, none that really show what he's capable of past the knee and up air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXSp87ZNxDI Ito vs. ZeRo - NorCal Regionals 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD6wSiPUiZw Max Ketchum vs. Nairo - XSmash 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgZXTsKqH9s Pichi vs. Nyanko - Umebura 19

One can render 's dash attack useless if one DI's the dash attack away. Or at least beyond 25% or so. People should not spread misinformation about 's being useful as a combo starter. The reason it is a good move is because it does a decent amount of damage and stays out for a while and can break the spacing of an opponent if used as a mixup.

 

[Nobie]

I think that Sheik is more or less in a good place, and that even if she does have some uneven matchups, they're perhaps not as uneven as people think. It's just that Sheik's play style, which revolves around just being able to overwhelm opponents with quick attacks with incredible coverage can make her seem unstoppable. Like, when you lose to Aura Lucario, you might feel like you lost to one giant BS mechanic. When you lose to Sheik, you feel like you lost to many tiny BS mechanics. That's not to say either of those characters are illegitimate in their wins or styles, but it's the reaction they potentially invoke.

However, if there was one nerf I would give to Sheik, it would be SOMETHING in Bouncing Fish. It doesn't have to be everything, but here's a move that travels over half the distance of FD, is controllable in terms of how far it has to travel to hit the opponent, lets her recover from far off stage, bounces on hit which allows her to get away or get back to stage safely during edgeguarding and other scenarios, is a KO move, and more. If only one or two properties were tweaked, it would give Sheik a bit more predictability, and a bit less versatility, and given that the character is already so danged versatile I don't think it would be too big a loss. I think the first two areas, either the distance or the flexibility of travel, could stand to get nerfed slightly, so that either Sheik could not travel way deep off stage, or had some blind spots that would make its 50/50 KO setups reliable but fewer in number.

 

[thehard]

Cliched, but I'd rather have the non-interesting aspect of needles nerfed way before BF is nerfed. Which is to say, cut down on their range and have them not pop up characters until like... after 200% (the interesting parts are all the pivoting techniques and VoiD combos). I think this would go a longer way toward balancing out Sheik's MU spread (which should be the main goal here!); it's almost like a QoL change for the game as a whole. I'm sure even Sheik mains would enjoy not being able to single-needle-spam at long range anymore. (But some of you are sadists, so...) It's just weird that she has the best rushdown game but the best walling tool too.

Furthermore, I'd rather keep her in line with her intended design and not hit frame data unless it was really warranted.

What I'd REALLY like is to abolish "cheese counterpicks" with this character (you saw this a decent amount with pre-patch Luigi), and I think needle camping is about the easiest and cheesiest you can get with her right now. This is different from picking a character in an attempt to counter your opponent's or to thrive on match-up unfamiliarity, by the way. Not sure this is plausible as amazing frame data is amazing frame data, but it's still a worthy goal IMO.

She could never get touched again and I'd be OK with that too.

 

[Mario766]

We should really move past this "Sheik has no even matchups" thing.

Melee Fox is a horrible abomination that's only not universally picked because our hands don't have fast enough fingers, and he's still agreed to have even matchups. Considering that Sheik is several parsecs away from Fox in power, the concept of her winning every matchup doesn't make any sense.

Having even matchups doesn't necessarily take her out of #1 either. She can have even matchups and still have the best overall matchup spread in the game.

Different game. Can't compare them.

Fox still has to deal with


Falco, who out-ranges him, has a better projectile than him, combos him just as hard as he does, and edgeguards him as well as Fox edgeguards him
Marth who chain-grabs him, out-ranges him heavily, can effortlessly edgeguard him and get early gimp kills with tippers and Ken Combos.
Ice Climbers, who will One-Touch you like MK wishes he could in Smash 4.
Sheik who will tech chase you to death, and get easy kill confirms, also destroys Fox off-stage and at the ledge.

There's a reason all the top Melee characters are S tier, because they all have absurd kits.

Sheik winning MUs doesn't make her utterly stronger, it just means she controls neutral extremely well and the other player has to play the MU well to do well against the Sheik player, assuming equal skill level.

 

[Ghostbone]

You can make the same comparisons of Sheik to smash 4 characters as Fox to melee characters, there are plenty of characters that combo her hard or can compete with her in neutral or kill her early.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So that the subject is not derailed further @Mr. ShinyUmbreon and Kaladin you can change your settings so ALL text shows up as white despite what someone puts it as. Go to your preferences here on the forum.

But on the subject of Sheik I too agree it seems odd to say she isn't capable of having any even matchups but she DOES seem significantly better than most all characters in the cast. I don't know if that means she just has itty bitty advantages over some characters but if that's the case it's probably not enough to matter. I'd say she does have the best matchup spread in the game though.

Maybe more controversially, I'd say she also makes a nice chunks of characters probably not worth touching in tournaments if more and more people pick her up. I get this game is one of the best balanced Smash titles but I still cannot understand why folks seem to think everyone could still snag a top 8 at a major event. There's a point where some characters just plain can't do work on a national or international scale and we need to stop using locals to justify them as tournament viable.

 

[Luigi player]

This is random but I'm lookin at DK's frame data and...

why the **** does this character have intangibility on D-tilt from frame 1? Super safe, fast poke that can lead to death confirms from grab.

Actually all of DK's tilts are intangible, as are his smashes and Uair. I just went from respecting DK's char design to feeling DK is hella fraudulent.

The **** was Sakurai thinking.

And Ganondorf over here with not one intangible poke.

Character balance...HOW DO YOU HAS IT?!?!?!

Have you ever used or played against DK in Brawl?
He had hurtboxes all over his arms etc. which made him trade with or lose to attacks very often. It was a very stupid mechanic for a mediocre character which kinda negated his range-advantage.

That's the reason they changed this up. He got less range, and becomes partially invincible on some limbs and stuff.
Tbh, though, he still easily loses to any real disjointed move which makes it feel a bit like Brawl again and his hurtbox stuff is likely still worse than most or all(?) of the cast.

He also isn't really that good of a character in the first place and needs anything he gets. You want to take away one of the few things he can even do in neutral besides running/evading?!

This brings me to the next thing...

Oh, I know, and it's nothing to do with salt or confusion. I know that I'm just consistently outplayed. I'm just wondering if it's healthy that he has such a "simple design". I mean, he's no pre-patch Luigi, but his gameplan does seem to be centralised on his grab game and I don't know if that's a good thing or it's overcompensating for his other weaknesses. He's got good options, but he isn't really consistent in that sense. I don't know if that's good balance or a case of inherent contrasts making the character polarising.

Then again, I don't know how you'd balance superheavies without basing them on inherent binary oppositions (very big and very strong, very vulnerable and very slow). Weight is an important factor in Smash, since it's a big consideration when determining a character's survivability, so when you've got a character that's so heavy they take forever to die, you need to balance it somehow. Speed reduction is a common trend and a defining feature of superheavies in the other Smashes, but in this game, at least three of them (DK, Bowser and Charizard) have decent speed for their size and their frame data isn't really that bad. What tends to kill them is the fact that they don't have universally safe options, their their size makes them combo food and / or they have no reliable way to reset to neutral. They're defined by great advantage, terrible disadvantage and weak neutral. They're scuppered in neutral due to weak approaches or safe options, which means it's difficult to make use of their advantage, and they get put into disadvantage more easily. Consider then the fact that they tend to have a relatively small handful of good options, which simplifies their gameplan in neutral, and you've got characters that probably need a good (if overtuned) kill confirm to have any chance of viability; that or a total overhaul to their design, which would defeat the purpose of their character and just create a game where safety is predominant and variety is dead.

Thanks for the advice, though, I will bear it in mind. I don't doubt Pit wins the matchup, I just have difficulty exploiting DK where it counts, because one grab and you're in a very difficult place.

I think it's fine for DK to revolve quite a bit around his niche, the cargo throw, since it's a big thing for him and from the old games where he carries around princesses (and barrels). But it's true that it might be too rewarding. They should probably rather buff him in other places than have such a devastating kill-combo. Though it's nice to have combos and stuff. I don't really know what they should even change about it. Uair weaker would be bad. Cargo jump lower would be sad. Maybe just a little more KBG for the cargo utoss so it won't KO / only on fastfallers? Who knows. But DK does definitely need much more tools to truly compete against most of the good characters. He has a really hard time...

It's quite true that DK mostly tries to go for grabs now and has probably a little too much reward so he has no reason not to. I kinda miss the old DK gameplay where you'd actually play "normally" instead of just trying to go for grabs, even though I like grab-centered stuff (I love Luigis dashgrab and stuff, and I loved grabbing around in Brawl too [not chaingrabs, though]). It's nice and DK should have something similar to what he has now, but probably not as "strong". If his other options were better he also wouldn't have to resort to this most of the time, so there's also that. He has such big flaws that make most of his moves non-options.

Last time I tried to play a Fox I almost didn't get a grab at all. I lost like 85 % of the neutral while trying to go for tilts, grabs or aerials, because Fox is just that safe, disjointed and fast. It's really frustrating. Once DK gets in he really has to keep juggling Fox to try to make up for all the damage he got while trying to land one solid hit on him, or else it'll be the same all over again.

 

[hypersonicJD]

it seems like Ike is -1 for Sonic. I really feel it's even with the Ikes I have played though (not for glory anymore. This time is in Anther's ladder and they are pretty good people there).

Also, Sonic + Diddy seems like a really good team. Sonic can set up kills for Diddy and Diddy can do the same for Sonic, banana helps Sonic to catch an opponent and get a kill, spring up air can also help Diddy get a kill with his own up air. And both of them have nice attacks that connect each other. Also Sonic is able to save Diddy with some weak nairs if Diddy is offstage (because Nair rises Diddy up a little bit and he can use monkey flip). And this was proven by ZeRo and 6WX. Both of them consistently got kills very easily with Sonic Down Throw to Diddy Up Smash and Spring Up air to Diddy Up air. Which team would be a counter for these characters?

 

[warionumbah2]

I'll try

Sure, shiek has the superior neutral but considering the fact that meta knight can end shiek's life by winning the nuetral 1, maybe 2 times

This can literally be said for every character, guess his only bad MU is .

She has trouble escaping all of his combos/juggles, he can combat her offstage like no other character...

Sheik doesn't get juggled, not with her disadvantage state being so good. Down throw to shuttle loop stops working pretty early if she DI's correctly due to how her hurtbox is during hitstun. If you have a frame 3 Nair you can break the FH Uair --> FF Bair setup if the MK isn't frame perfect, MK cannot break any of her strings/combos outside of Dair being somewhat useful during 50/50 setups off her down throw. Although its not guaranteed, Down throw near the ledge into RAR Bair will not work on a competent Sheik all she has to do is Fair she has no reason to airdodge.

Off stage is in Sheik's favor, MK cannot pressure her off stage at all, her Fair will swat away his edgeguard attempts and of course Vanish screwing a very light character like MK over. Abadango foolishly went to edgeguard J's Sheik instead of maintaining stage control and that cost him the match. Its very rare for a MK to edgeguard Sheik, Sheik users on the other hand can FH needle storm MK if he tries to drill rush and then combo into BF, literally BF without worry since he can't do anything against that other than dipping low or getting a well timed airdodge.

I know that many meta knight mains like to claim that needle camping ruins his life

This hasn't been said by any MK in months.

but why does meta knight care that much about needles when he can opt to remain airborne until sheik comes close?

If this is done at long range and MK has the lead this is feasible, but for the most part doing this at mid range isn't safe at all. Sheik can just jump at MK and Fair, MKs best option in that situation is to go as high as possible then mix up their landing with Cape. If the MK wants to jump around then the Sheik player will just fully charge their needles for later use such as:kill confirm near the ledge and edgeguard attempt.

I'm genuinely curious. Can someone explain to me why meta knight loses this matchup?

Other than MK killing her by winning neutral once(impossible btw even with FF bair) or twice and all that jazz. I have yet to see a good write up on how MK goes even with her never mind suddenly beating her. The most common argument to back this up tend to be results, but those who do this cherry pick results from Leo and Leo only.

Here's some i can remember.
Ito beat down Zex and Trevonte. Never beats Void(kills sheik at 27%, still loses).
Tyrant beat Vinnie and Void(4-3 atm). Lost to Vinnie at CEO and socal local, gets bopped by Mr R.
Salena lost to Edge. I think he lost to Rain as well im not sure please clarify.
Abadango lost to Wizzrobe and J.

Abadango being the closest to Leo's level has yet to beat a competent Sheik with MK. Other than Salena and Leo, every top MK considers it a bad MU including Mr R who uses both characters at high level and understands them both. Also to bounce back the "Mr R is way better than Tyrant" replies, if you wanna take away that loss you'll also have to knock of Ito's wins against Zex/Trevonte. Its interesting how many times Sheik eliminates MK in tournament im probably missing other scenarios as well but that's all i can remember off the top of my head.

I guarantee if Leo was to lose to a Sheik(God forbid) at Genesis most of you wouldn't call it even. A bad MU should not make it an auto lose at high level, like Anti's pre patch Luigi beating Abadango's Pacman.

 

[Nu~]

Thank you.
Seems my meta knight knowledge is outdated.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think the tournament evidence is too strong at this point to be still calling Ike vs Sonic even.

Lets just take a look at things. We have Ryo, Ryuga, San, and now Rango all beating top level Sonics. Ryo and Ryuga have done it multiple times for sure against different Sonics, San has his one win and a bit more experience since then, Rango just got his first and it was a fairly sound beating as well. SM I don't know if he's faced any top level Sonics or not so I can't really say.

The other direction we have... Seagull Joe beating San. Which San would have won if he hadn't listen to bad CP advise and is the noticeable Ike main with the least amount of Sonic experience. So 1 win for Sonic in a "perfect storm" type setting (Seagull Joe going on a tear that tournament + the other things I mentioned) vs.... if you count every time Ryo beat Static Manny it might be approaching a dozen times at least? If Kinzer is considered a top level Sonic you can tack on a few more wins for Sonic (assuming those weren't the wifi matches Rango constantly had difficulty with), but not that many overall.

That's just too dominate not to call it an advantage for Ike at this point. Particularly with the evidence of Rango having lots of difficulty with Sonic before the latest patch added in on top of it all (where Ike still had a very dominate record before the last patch, but now Ikes that had problems were the MU are starting to win it as well, suggesting that the shield patch helped Ike more than Sonic in the MU). There's nothing suggesting in the results that its an even MU. Its noticeably tilted results wise and a MU that's played out oddly frequently.

Unless you're going to say that all of the Ike mains are noticeably better players than the Sonic mains.

I think other 's just don't play the matchup to a T. I don't noticeably play it amazingly either, but airdodging and using spindash outside of from close range vs is bad.

What do I do different? I grab him and punish, jump when he Dthrows me, and use a lot of bair rather then commit to spindash.

I think wins the matchup 55-45 because he's really heavy, not exactly easy to gimp, and kills easier by comparison.

Whoever was talking about vs , I truly think it's an even matchup. I have enough experience against 's to back up my claims. I think 's fight wrong. Only Komorikiri plays it right. It's all about saving one's double jump to weave and then baiting her into grabbing. Sure you can't gimp , but she can't gimp nor kill you without grab to Uair at 130%.

's losing matchups (Even slightly disadvantage) are: , , , and . I think is by far 's worst matchup.

 

[Kaladin]

I think other 's just don't play the matchup to a T. I don't noticeably play it amazingly either, but airdodging and using spindash outside of from close range vs is bad.

What do I do different? I grab him and punish, jump when he Dthrows me, and use a lot of bair rather then commit to spindash.

I think wins the matchup 55-45 because he's really heavy, not exactly easy to gimp, and kills easier by comparison.

Whoever was talking about vs , I truly think it's an even matchup. I have enough experience against 's to back up my claims. I think 's fight wrong. Only Komorikiri plays it right. It's all about saving one's double jump to weave and then baiting her into grabbing. Sure you can't gimp , but she can't gimp nor kill you without grab to Uair at 130%.

's losing matchups (Even slightly disadvantage) are: , , , and . I think is by far 's worst matchup.

How do you feel about Pika vs Sonic? Pika has better bust movement, can keep up with Sonic, and T-jolt screws with spin dash. That said, Sonic is Sonic. So even? Idk.

 

[Omegascizor456]

I think other 's just don't play the matchup to a T. I don't noticeably play it amazingly either, but airdodging and using spindash outside of from close range vs is bad.

What do I do different? I grab him and punish, jump when he Dthrows me, and use a lot of bair rather then commit to spindash.

I think wins the matchup 55-45 because he's really heavy, not exactly easy to gimp, and kills easier by comparison.

Whoever was talking about vs , I truly think it's an even matchup. I have enough experience against 's to back up my claims. I think 's fight wrong. Only Komorikiri plays it right. It's all about saving one's double jump to weave and then baiting her into grabbing. Sure you can't gimp , but she can't gimp nor kill you without grab to Uair at 130%.

's losing matchups (Even slightly disadvantage) are: , , , and . I think is by far 's worst matchup.

I think that Nairo versus 6WX was misplayed by 6WX i would agree that sonic does decent against ZSS as well as sheik

 

[hypersonicJD]

About Rosa vs Sonic... It's not even that bad.Sonic can still make it out alive and make a comeback on Rosalina. It's a hard task. But can be done.

How do you feel about Pika vs Sonic? Pika has better bust movement, can keep up with Sonic, and T-jolt screws with spin dash. That said, Sonic is Sonic. So even? Idk.

Yeah. Pika vs Sonic is pretty even for me. Don't know about Seagull.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Have you ever used or played against DK in Brawl?
He had hurtboxes all over his arms etc. which made him trade with or lose to attacks very often. It was a very stupid mechanic for a mediocre character which kinda negated his range-advantage.

That's the reason they changed this up. He got less range, and becomes partially invincible on some limbs and stuff.
Tbh, though, he still easily loses to any real disjointed move which makes it feel a bit like Brawl again and his hurtbox stuff is likely still worse than most or all(?) of the cast.

He also isn't really that good of a character in the first place and needs anything he gets. You want to take away one of the few things he can even do in neutral besides running/evading?!

This brings me to the next thing...



I think it's fine for DK to revolve quite a bit around his niche, the cargo throw, since it's a big thing for him and from the old games where he carries around princesses (and barrels). But it's true that it might be too rewarding. They should probably rather buff him in other places than have such a devastating kill-combo. Though it's nice to have combos and stuff. I don't really know what they should even change about it. Uair weaker would be bad. Cargo jump lower would be sad. Maybe just a little more KBG for the cargo utoss so it won't KO / only on fastfallers? Who knows. But DK does definitely need much more tools to truly compete against most of the good characters. He has a really hard time...

It's quite true that DK mostly tries to go for grabs now and has probably a little too much reward so he has no reason not to. I kinda miss the old DK gameplay where you'd actually play "normally" instead of just trying to go for grabs, even though I like grab-centered stuff (I love Luigis dashgrab and stuff, and I loved grabbing around in Brawl too [not chaingrabs, though]). It's nice and DK should have something similar to what he has now, but probably not as "strong". If his other options were better he also wouldn't have to resort to this most of the time, so there's also that. He has such big flaws that make most of his moves non-options.

Last time I tried to play a Fox I almost didn't get a grab at all. I lost like 85 % of the neutral while trying to go for tilts, grabs or aerials, because Fox is just that safe, disjointed and fast. It's really frustrating. Once DK gets in he really has to keep juggling Fox to try to make up for all the damage he got while trying to land one solid hit on him, or else it'll be the same all over again.

I love what ur doing, but peeps here don't actually understand how average to subpar DK is especially without his grabs. He has the ability to close stocks and cause huge momentum shifts without his grabs, but that requires his opponents to be in the fear or just mess up. That's the code of playing a heavy.

Among the giants (that is what call KD3, Charizard, Ganon, Bowser, and DK), is the best no doubt even without the grab. The reason is because his moves flow together, especially when he is advantage cuz he has the mobility to kinda keep up, but don't mean he so good. Every time I think of DK, I think of Zangief because of a strong poke game both have, strong grapple game, hard time dealing with rush downs, jump in approaches is life and a multitude of other reasons. Ever watch Zangiefs (Snakeyez is prolly the best) kinda walk up back and forth and wait and bait only to take the ONE opening they get? Yeah, DK has to do that as he really doesn't anything to FORCE buttons in neutral, but rather sees an opportunity and hopes that you're spooked for followups. Zangief has green hand to start stuff up and DK has..,.......jab 1¿????¿????

DK has no approach and no landing and the fact that anyone complains about how strong he is without analyzing the character (this applies to every character as I feel people complain only a bit the positives or don't wanna look at the whole picture), it makes me bang my head in. Yes he has the ding dong, but what if your opponent keeps you out? He is average and has to rely on reads or other things..,...,...I have a video of exactly that
https://youtu.be/94NVi-aMYDs

 

[meleebrawler]

DK has no approach and no landing and the fact that anyone complains about how strong he is without analyzing the character (this applies to every character as I feel people complain only a bit the positives or don't wanna look at the whole picture), it makes me bang my head in. Yes he has the ding dong, but what if your opponent keeps you out? He is average and has to rely on reads or other things..,...,...I have a video of exactly that
https://youtu.be/94NVi-aMYDs

I often feel people give Mewtwo this treatment in the negative direction when they analyze him for matchups, mainly only looking at how easily he can be juggled or how early he can die without really looking at what he can do.

 

[adom4]

I often feel people give Mewtwo this treatment in the negative direction when they analyze him for matchups, mainly only looking at how easily he can be juggled or how early he can die without really looking at what he can do.

I feel like a lot of people underrate confusion as a movement option, it helps him a ton at landing & returning on stage safely.

 

[Tri Knight]

I love what ur doing, but peeps here don't actually understand how average to subpar DK is especially without his grabs. He has the ability to close stocks and cause huge momentum shifts without his grabs, but that requires his opponents to be in the fear or just mess up. That's the code of playing a heavy.

Among the giants (that is what call KD3, Charizard, Ganon, Bowser, and DK), is the best no doubt even without the grab. The reason is because his moves flow together, especially when he is advantage cuz he has the mobility to kinda keep up, but don't mean he so good. Every time I think of DK, I think of Zangief because of a strong poke game both have, strong grapple game, hard time dealing with rush downs, jump in approaches is life and a multitude of other reasons. Ever watch Zangiefs (Snakeyez is prolly the best) kinda walk up back and forth and wait and bait only to take the ONE opening they get? Yeah, DK has to do that as he really doesn't anything to FORCE buttons in neutral, but rather sees an opportunity and hopes that you're spooked for followups. Zangief has green hand to start stuff up and DK has..,.......jab 1¿????¿????

DK has no approach and no landing and the fact that anyone complains about how strong he is without analyzing the character (this applies to every character as I feel people complain only a bit the positives or don't wanna look at the whole picture), it makes me bang my head in. Yes he has the ding dong, but what if your opponent keeps you out? He is average and has to rely on reads or other things..,...,...I have a video of exactly that
https://youtu.be/94NVi-aMYDs

I believe Zard's very good too for a heavy but very underestimated. He's got the same disadvantages as all the Giants but hes got great OoS options that can lead to easy kills. Up-throw can still kill at very early percents on higher platforms of stages like Battlefield still I think. Rock Smash can be used as a counter. He's got pretty good options.

 

[ATH_]

People love to sum up characters to one or two pros or cons, when in reality every character in S4 is a lot more complicated than that.

I personally think this is because of hype and hope that a character will become the best only for them to be about average. So people take it a lot worse than it actually is. Skill is and has always been a factor.

Lots more people are switching to the character bias rather than it being player skill. This happens a lot with Zero, M2K, Nairo even. Pretty much anyone who plays a good character is accused of their wins being because of the character.

Kind of went off-topic, I apologize, but I personally think this stigma should be brought down a bit. Having the matchup bias is another thing that factors in, when players tend to assume a character is broken entirely because they demolish their main.

 

[Seagull Joe]

How do you feel about Pika vs Sonic? Pika has better bust movement, can keep up with Sonic, and T-jolt screws with spin dash. That said, Sonic is Sonic. So even? Idk.

Even matchup.

About Rosa vs Sonic... It's not even that bad.Sonic can still make it out alive and make a comeback on Rosalina. It's a hard task. But can be done.

It's pretty bad (40-60 or 35-65 at worst). has no reliable way of getting in. You can kill if she's offstage and harass her in the air, but getting her off the ground in the first place is really hard. Spindash loses to her just multijabbing with luma. One can't exactly grab .

She is susceptible to people rolling behind her and sh aerial crossups, but those get obvious during a match. can't land and she traps landings well.

 

[Smog Frog]

what makes you think you cant grab ? just don't pummel. she's a hot potato, get that **** out of your hands before you get burns.

 

[Antonykun]

what makes you think you cant grab ? just don't pummel. she's a hot potato, get that **** out of your hands before you get burns.

its very annoying to approach a character with a frame 3 disjointed grab

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I wish Sonic players would stop making baseless claims about being disadvantaged against Fox.

Just because most matchups are free for Sonic doesn't mean that the few ones you actually have to use your brain in are automatically in the opponent's favor.

 

[hypersonicJD]

That's why I said Rosalina isn't that bad at all. You can kil Rosalina really easily with Back air or any of your strongest Smash attacks. And Luma dies at a Dash attack.

 

[Peppermint1201]

I wish Sonic players would stop making baseless claims about being disadvantaged against Fox.

Just because most matchups are free for Sonic doesn't mean that the few ones you actually have to use your brain in are automatically in the opponent's favor.

Care to elaborate on your thoughts on the Sonic/Fox MU? What do your personal gripes with the attitude of Sonic mains have to do with this?

 

[Kaladin]

Look at this.

Pikachu vs Sheik is the definition of an even matchup. Pikachu combos Sheik to hell, because the nature of his string negate her escape options for the most part. Sheik can still combo Pika, but she has to be careful, lest she get thunder'd. Pika can actually combat Sheik offstage. Pikachu has a slightly easier time killing, but Sheik has a slight advantage in the neutral.

Seriously, fire me irl. Sheik is even with Pika at the top level.

 

[Djent]

Kaladin I've been thinking this MU could be even after the most recent patch, but it's kind of hard to tell when the only top-level Sheik vs. Pikachu match literally just happened (ESAM 3-1 over Vinnie) EDIT: Wait no, Zero also beat ESAM 3-1 at MLG, my bad. By the end of the night we should have a few more matches to analyze, as Zero and ESAM are playing in WF and (probably) GF of Tipped Off 11. FWIW I agree with what you said about the interactions, except that I don't think combo-break Thunder is that big of a factor in Pika's favor. IIRC it happened once in the set we just saw, whereas Vinnie typically had no trouble fair-chaining ESAM across the stage just as he would anyone else.

EDIT: It's also worth mentioning that Pika has to be careful using aerials to attempt breaking out of Sheik's vertical set-ups. In one game, Vinnie got a Vanish kill when ESAM elected to nair instead of double-jumping away.