Chaingrabbing: Is it right?

[assosiaan2014]

So I was looking at the most updated tier list, I notice that the Ice Climbers are ranked up there quite high. I did a little research, and noticed that this was mainly due to their superiority in chaingrabbing. Now, I've tried to chaingrab as Ice Climbers, and it was way more difficult than I expected. I commend anyone who can pull off this expert technique. But it got me thinking, is it frowned upon? I know falco can chaingrab as well, and it is much easier. Those two have high tier listings due to this gift of chaingrabbing (although falco has many other strengths, such as spiking, and Ice Climbers have other strengths as well). But is it considered cheap to chaingrab, as either of the two? Or anyone else for that matter?

 

[Kink-Link5]

It exists.

Sounds right to me.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Nothing is frowned upon, play to win.

Falco's chaingrab only lasts to the end of the stage and can be DI'ed anyways.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If you're choosing not to play within the realm and rules of what the game gives you, that you're playing with some sense of describing certain actions taken in the fight as "right and wrong," then you are choosing to play sub-optimally, and can be just as likely accused of playing "wrong" by running away and throwing Pikmin as Olimar by someone with your same kind of mentality.

The point is, the game allows it.

Why this is even allowed to be a thread I'll probably never know.

 

[Aaven]

If you're choosing not to play within the realm and rules of what the game gives you, that you're playing with some sense of describing certain actions taken in the fight as "right and wrong," then you are choosing to play sub-optimally, and can be just as likely accused of playing "wrong" by running away and throwing Pikmin as Olimar by someone with your same kind of mentality.

The point is, the game allows it.

^ Pretty much sums it up in my opinion.

 

[crush]

I love these threads

 

[trilok]

just because it exists in the game, doesnt mean it is automatically right. The players and the communities form an opinion whether to include any aspect of the game into play, and that is pretty much what determines what is right or not. Consider ice climbers freeze glitch or stalling, they are both in the game, but the community formed a consensus to ban them.

In this particular topic, i dont think the community thinks chain grabbing in general is broken enough to ban, but i do think in the opinion of many that it would be perceived as a cheap tactic.

id like to point out that wobbling was banned in certain tournaments in melee dependant on TO.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Waaa I lost. You're so cheap doing things that make me lose.

Stalling is disallowed because all it does is make a losing player lose slower and delay tournaments. Freeze Glitch makes the game literally unplayable. Neither have anything to do with cheap tactics.

 

[trilok]

Waaa I lost. You're so cheap doing things that make me lose.

Stalling is disallowed because all it does is make a losing player lose slower and delay tournaments. Freeze Glitch makes the game literally unplayable. Neither have anything to do with cheap tactics.

getting one hit in and stalling the rest of the game is considered a cheap tactic by many peoples opinion, but that isnt the point.

I pointed out the freeze glitch and stalling not because it was on the topic of cheap tactics, as you have misunderstood the point, but rather to point out that the smash community determines whether an aspect of the game is to be considered in our play, not just the existence of something in the game.

human beings in competitive games react emotionally when considering things cheap. the gist of it is that the harder a thing is to do, the less cheap it usually is considered. smashers also sometimes think that flashier, but still forced combinations, are less cheap or gay than boring simple ones.

so a shine pillar combo to death is usually considered less cheap than a chain grab to death by a lot of players even with the same result and helplessness in the combo due to the flashiness and complexity reasons.

chaingrab by a lot of players will be in the opinion of "cheap" because most arent hard to execute. This is a different topic than if chaingrabbing is right or not though, which i mentioned that its seems ppl groan at it, but it isnt broken enough to ban.

 

[cannedbread]

this is gonna be good

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nah, I'm not going to indulge in idiotic arguments. Get NoirScythe in here. He's usually right and has the energy to do that sort of thing.

 

[dettadeus]

chaingrab by a lot of players will be in the opinion of "cheap" because most arent hard to execute. This is a different topic than if chaingrabbing is right or not though, which i mentioned that its seems ppl groan at it, but it isnt broken enough to ban.

i'm only gonna post in here this one time but

chaingrabbing with ice climbers in brawl is harder than it may seem, especially on some characters

it's definitely harder to do than most melee chaingrabs on spacies because it requires a lot of precision and buffering, and regrab windows are generally 2-3 frames

 

[trilok]

i'm only gonna post in here this one time but

chaingrabbing with ice climbers in brawl is harder than it may seem, especially on some characters

it's definitely harder to do than most melee chaingrabs on spacies because it requires a lot of precision and buffering, and regrab windows are generally 2-3 frames

i agree, as i said most chain grabs are easy to execute, as the icies do seem quite hard. Because they are harder to execute, people usually consider it less cheap.

 

[Yodery]

Too lazy to figure out how to conquer a technique in a game?

BAN IT

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

Okay, so I'm just giong to post this.

<Bun2>: I think he's trying to say "I don't think IC chain grabs are cheap but other people do so we should follow the community that I made up that thinks this and ban it maybe"
<NoirScythe>: Uhh, I don't think that's what he's trying to say
<NoirScythe>: I just think he's saying that the community usually provides reasonable criteria for banning tactics.
<NoirScythe>: However, there are some tactics that are still widely considered cheap that are legal.
<NoirScythe>: For example: up throw -> rest
<Bun2>: he said himself that cheapness has nothing to do with the other tactics being banned
<DangerOnTheRanger>: I wish the community would stop using the word "cheap", to be honest. There are much better, more descriptive words out there
<Bun2>: which is where my confusion comes from
<NoirScythe>: Well if he said that if cheapness has nothing to do with other tactics being banned, then that would be consistent with my idea that he's claiming that the community has more reasonable (rather than emotional) basis to ban tactics.
<NoirScythe>: and that there are legal cheap tactics.
<Bun2>: That's why I don't get what he's trying to say about chain grabs
<NoirScythe>: I think he's just elaborating on the cheap mentality of the community.
<NoirScythe>: or what the community considers cheap, while still legal
<NoirScythe>: He's making the proposition that a factor of complexity and difficulty of execution of a tactic serves to diminish the idea that a tactic is cheap.
<NoirScythe>: I feel like you just jumped on this guy's case prematurely. lol I find him quite agreeable if my interpretation of what he's saying is correct.
<DangerOnTheRanger>: I guess I see where he's coming from


He also made a point that not just because something is in the game, it's okay to use.

 

[Yodery]

NoirScythe, I love you.

 

[JOE!]

The cheap feeling I think can be justified at times due to the input required. Where one character has to (play) vs the other to do damage and such, the other gets to just dthrow all day to the same effect, but less effort. While not "wrong", it makes the non cg player feel a bit cheated.

 

[TL?]

People will call anything that beats them "cheap". Don't ever let that stop you from playing your game unless you're doing something that is legitimately broken. It is not disrespectful or dishonorable to get the most damage you can off of your throws (via chaingrabs in some cases). Going easy on someone by holding things back is what is really disrespectful. If you want to be a real good sport, you let people know the best ways to avoid escapable setups/combos/whatever instead of just not using them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I hate ICs and D3s CG on Lucario so much and wants to rage hard when it happens thinking, this is such garbage.

But I respect it is something they can do and deal with it.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

People will call anything that beats them "cheap".

Nope.

Nope

 

[TheZizz]

In competitive play it doesn't matter: it's kill or be killed.

In casual play it depends. Your opponent may get offended if you don't give it 100% and utilize whatever tools at your disposal. But if you're doing a FFA with items it might be considered a **** move.

In any case, keep in mind that it's a design flaw that any sensible person would eliminate if they had the opportunity (see: Brawl+ and others). To put it another way, showing off a game you love by spamming chaingrab is like showing off a girl you love by pointing out the hairy wart on her neck.

 

[Kink-Link5]

How would that be anything like pointing out a wart?

 

[| Big D |]

Ban ICs

 

[DeLux]

I would ban infinite CGs, no questions asked

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah. It's a good thing infinite CGs do not exist in SSBB.

 

[DeLux]

and if exist, they are already banned

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah. It's a good thing infinite CGs do not exist in SSBB.

Nope, none at all.

 

[nessokman]

I believe IC have an infinite if performed right.If i recall, in competitive play they don't allow you to grab more than three times consecutively.I'm rusty on rules though.

Chaingrabbing in a sense a glitch in the game that takes advantage of the time that it takes for a character to recover from a certain throw to grab them again.If that is a true blue glitch, then i guess wavedashing should just be banned as well.

 

[MR. K]

^incorrect on both Nessokman.


Tournaments allow CGing up to 300% to avoid stalling a match. a CG is also not a glitch, in most games like tekken its actually intentional and characters are like King were made specifically to be CGers.

In smash, least in the Ice climbers case for sure, I seriosuly doubt it was intentional to give them an infinite on the entire cast, so you could probably (again, in the IC's case) consider it a physics exploit.

Does it matter either way? not really, its still legal.

 

[Luco]

Okay, i'm gonna jump in here as a Ness/Lucas main who, as you can imagine, suffers from this problem more than perhaps any other character in the cast. I will admit that I despise CGs with a passion when i'm on the receiving end and yes, you could consider them a silly or 'cheap' tactic.

That said, personally I do not consider them to be that 'cheap' and I don't think it's 'wrong' to use them. Most of them require some time, practice and skill and it just means that one person is maximizing their character's potential against another (in ICs case, against everyone, but luckily even top players drop this grab sometimes!). They're about as annoying as any other legitimate combo.

I dunno exactly how to explain it. I think I could really be fine either way, there ARE ways to avoid people who are going for the grab and as it so happens, because of my deficits against marth and DK and so on, I happen to be able to deal with ICs better than a LOT of people.

 

[Veeonix]

Money match your Ness/Lucas with my Marth?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Money match your Ness/Lucas with my Marth?

To what end and to what purpose?

 

[Arcansi]

If you're choosing not to play within the realm and rules of what the game gives you, that you're playing with some sense of describing certain actions taken in the fight as "right and wrong," then you are choosing to play sub-optimally, and can be just as likely accused of playing "wrong" by running away and throwing Pikmin as Olimar by someone with your same kind of mentality.

The point is, the game allows it.

So you're saying that stuff like get at least 1% further and then do infinite cape as metaknight should be legal?

Make no mistake, there are definitely some things that would be disallowed. I am inclined to believe you know this, but then have no reason as you why you would post such a thing.

 

[Yodery]

Oh, so you're too lazy to figure out how to conquer a technique in a game?

BAN IT!

 

[Arcansi]

Oh, so you're too lazy to figure out how to conquer a technique in a game?

BAN IT!

Going to go with metaknight infinite cape on this one. Unless you're telling me there's a way to get around having no hurtbox forever.

 

[Yodery]

Going to go with metaknight infinite cape on this one. Unless you're telling me there's a way to get around having no hurtbox forever.

That's banned in tournaments bruh. As for friendlies, the guy doing it would prolly end up getting his *** kicked by the guy he's going against, for well, obvious reasons.

I wasn't talking to you tbh feel me

 

[Kink-Link5]

IDC is not banned for being cheap. If your point is to use it as a counterexample that "cheap" tactics don't get banned it falls sort of flat in its basic premise.

If your point is something else you're not in the proper thread or aren't making your case nearly clear enough.

 

[Maven2]

IDC is not banned for being cheap. If your point is to use it as a counterexample that "cheap" tactics don't get banned it falls sort of flat in its basic premise.

If your point is something else you're not in the proper thread or aren't making your case nearly clear enough.

I believe the point he was trying to make is that there are some things in the game, such as IDC, that most people agree should be banned. Thus, even though chaingrabbing is "allowed" by the game itself, it's not unreasonable to have a discussion about whether it should be banned or not, since we've already admitted that some things allowed by the game should be banned.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I guess, but it just seems really weird to take my post in that context without reading on in the thread where I elaborate more why things do get banned when they do.

 

[Luco]

Money match your Ness/Lucas with my Marth?

To what end and to what purpose?

Umm, yeah, KL summed my thoughts up there.