Category Character Tier Lists

[th3kuzinator]

I would give the edge to Kirby, he has to better priority aerials to defend himself with, he has the Final Cutter and his jumps aren't consecutively weaker like Puff's are. Puff has the pound to help with horizontal distance but Kirby's better jumps compensate for it somewhat.

I think Kirby and Jiggs are pretty much equal. All of Kirby's jumps are the same height for the most part, whereas Jiggly sorta tapers off as she runs out of breath and has no Up+B. Kirby has a nasty D+air which wards off most attacks from below, and Jiggly has amazing horizontal air speed and pound. All in all, they sorta equalize in the end. For me, at least.

I personally think Jiggs' recovery is better overall, as most moves that send you off the edge send you high (ie most grabs). And everyone seems to agree jiggly is better than kirby recovering from above.

I feel like when recovering from high up, jiggs obviously has more options about getting back to the middle of the stage (works better on larger stages) but against a character with a good uair (like falcon) I would much rather have kirby's dair to eventually get me down rather than jiggs'

of course you can just bait them with pound and such and ff a dair after he misses.

Basically below the stage id rather have kirby
above the stage and far away id rather have jiggs
physically above the stage - kirby

Above are the stated arguments discussing Kirby vs Jigglypuff's Recovery.

Any more discussion before a decision is made?

 

[Battlecow]

It really should be "Categorized" in the thread title. Honestly, it really annoys me when important, nice threads (*kaff* Yayornay *kaff*) have spelling errors in the titles. It makes us seem like a bunch of idiots.

 

[ballin4life]

Wow good catch. ^^

 

[Kaffei]

what it is: simply a glitch. Even TASers do not fully understand why this happens and it simply can not be explained with any previous logic we have learned from the game. I read somewhere that the teleport lasts as long as the character's Pre-Jump animation. IIRC, jiggly is in this state longer before she jumps and therefore has a longer and more drastic teleport than samus and fox (what I dont understand is if its simply the pre jump animation, why cant all characters do it?)

how to do it:
1. Be in a full run (not initial dash) with either jiggs fox or samus.
2. Mash the control stick in the opposite direction as you are running
3. Jump 3 frames later.

The close you get to 3 frames, the more drastic the teleport looks. jumping on frames 2 and 4 get a smaller teleport.

You can either
(A) cancel the teleport with a usmash which looks like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdggE9_qbiI

(B) Cancel the teleport with UPB, which is a terrible idea with fox or samus. With jiggs it can produce a gigantic slide if canceled with sing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gH4z7gRpLY&feature=related

(C) Just use the jump and do an arial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCkRtKck30U&feature=related

If done close to the edge, it will actually slide off without doing a jump

thanks man

 

[Purtle]

Man I miss so much in a week.

Anyways, about the lists that there are now, I think I agree with them.

It's hard to choose for one character over another in some spots but good work overall.

 

[Sempiternity]

Above are the stated arguments discussing Kirby vs Jigglypuff's Recovery.

Any more discussion before a decision is made?

Regarding my point, after thinking a bit more about it, I have to give the practical edge to Kirby. Jigglypuff may be able to recover from farther away, but that's meaningless if you can't get back onto the stage. Pretty much all of the characters have a hard time recovering in this game, so getting back is most important. Kirby can space D+airs, and nobody wants to be underneath Kirby over the ledge while he's recovering, because that means instant death.

Kirby's F+air is also a good way to ward off edgeguarders. It does funny things when the last hit doesn't hit, and it acts like a D+air drill that characters like Mario or Jiggly have, pushing the opponent downward a little, which could mean problems for edgeuarders. It's not like you'll just be hit back onto the stage if you fail.

All in all, it's more risky to edgeguard Kirby than Jigglypuff.

 

[th3kuzinator]

All in all, it's more risky to edgeguard Kirby than Jigglypuff.

Thats precisely it IMO.

Say both characters are knocked up high into a corner on DL.

Kirby may not be able to make it all the way back to the middle just with jumps, but a ff dair into the platform or the side will make it very tough to edgueard.

No matter where jiggs is hit up high she will make it back to above the stage and center. Have fun trying to space your way down.

Now hyrule is a different story. If jiggs gets far enough above the level to make it back to the middle of hyrule, she can easily space something to get back on the ground. It is quite hard to do this on DL

 

[smashless gama]

Ness' combo ability is actually pretty amazing (firsthand experience) but I've used Fox for a while now and cant get many great combos in there...I know he's fast, but I dunno.

 

[th3kuzinator]

I dont know about pretty amazing. He has some legit uair chains on heavies, situational fair chains on floaties but thats about it. His tech chase dair is too good, but that is not comboing. Just watch one of ballin4life's fox combos if you need to see why fox can combo like a beast. The thing that separates him from someone like falcon, is that fox wrecks floaties & heavies, while falcon only wrecks heavies.

Of course fox's combos are much harder to pull of than falcons, but in terms of potential and if executed perfectly, fox *****.

something like this

 

[dandan]

the fact is that ness combos are hardly combos, all are usually easily escapable. dair chains are ofcourse only tech chases and not combos, and uair/fair chains are pretty easy to DI out of. the move imo is hardest to DI out of is utilt, as it draws you to the center of ness horizontally, that is why utilt nair dair spike works pretty well.

 

[NixxxoN]

Ness is not really a combo machine and you gotta maximize your chances by sending off the opponent as early as you can, and probably the most efficient combo is the utilt-nair-dair (when youre near the edge) as dan said

 

[Fynal]

I wonder about pika as top of recovery list

Maybe its just the people i'm playing but i'v been finding predicting/hitting out of pika's upB to be relatively easy, and actually really fun

Mario on the other hand is a big pain for edgeguarders, with all the fireballs and really varied options for his 3 recover moves unless he gets knocked really far off

maybe at a higher level mario's stuff just doesnt matter or pika's upB can be aimed trickier?

 

[Battlecow]

I'd rather edgeguard pika than mario, but that's just me.

I do love interrupting that up-B with a Doug Hug. So much fun.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Mario is really weak to getting edge hogged, and he will most likely be using his tornado recovery at some point...which is VERY easy to edge guard / pressure.

They both cover a lot of distance but i think in the end pikachu is going to be harder to predict and therefore harder to edge guard

From anywhere mario can throw fireballs to hinder someones edge guarding...pikachu can recover from that same area, untouched by going over the head of the player, or if you see them running to the spot you're obviously going to land...reconsider and go on another angle.

Pikachu has a lot more sweetspot options then mario does too. Pikachu has a LOT of placements where he can UpB directly to the edge...

Pikachus recovery is fast, very unpredictable (compared to the rest of the cast), and has great distance (which is also alterable by the player to add more confusion / options)

 

[NixxxoN]

Mario is really weak to getting edge hogged, and he will most likely be using his tornado recovery at some point...which is VERY easy to edge guard / pressure.

They both cover a lot of distance but i think in the end pikachu is going to be harder to predict and therefore harder to edge guard

From anywhere mario can throw fireballs to hinder someones edge guarding...pikachu can recover from that same area, untouched by going over the head of the player, or if you see them running to the spot you're obviously going to land...reconsider and go on another angle.

Pikachu has a lot more sweetspot options then mario does too. Pikachu has a LOT of placements where he can UpB directly to the edge...

Pikachus recovery is fast, very unpredictable (compared to the rest of the cast), and has great distance (which is also alterable by the player to add more confusion / options)

Its true about the edgehog thing however sometimes fireballs can avoid it.
The tornado isnt that easy to break if you use it first when you are the most far away so your opponent has few chances of hitting you... Also just in case you can modify the tornado's rise and direction to make it less predictable.
Pikachu is not that hard to predict imo, I mean, he has limited options, mario can alter the recovery in more ways... throw a fireball here, throw a fireball there, use the jumps in different situations, attack the edgeguarder without falling off as he is floaty...

Pikachus recovery is fast, but it doesnt really have as much attacking capacity other than uair, unlike mario who has more options and a solid priority up+b.

I'd say both recovery are even stevens overall, imo pika's isnt better

 

[Sempiternity]

Pika has better horizontal air movement, which makes his recovery better in my eyes. With his double jump, be's back in range of a single quick attack to the ledge in most cases, meaning he has tons more options with that second movement.

Also, pretty much every recovery in this game is sub par, and even though Pika's is good, it's nowhere near a guaranteed recovery.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Also the fact that Pikachu's has a few periods of invulnerability really helps. Once a player gets good enough to specifically place their upb straight to the ledge or right on top of platform to reduce lag, it is very difficult to edgeguard. At high levels pikachu's is definitely better than mario's. At lower level it might be the reverse.

Pika simply has more options. Edgehog ***** mario.

So basically, if you make mario use his tornado early you can just edgehog. If you make him use it late, then just punish him after his rising tornado ends.

Pika's upb is also much better with respect to getting out of combos. Since the first few frames are invincibility, escaping dk's infinite cargo hold or escaping a poorly executed falcon uair chain is useful.

 

[NixxxoN]

So basically, if you make mario use his tornado early you can just edgehog. If you make him use it late, then just punish him after his rising tornado ends.

Well, in most cases mario gets sent high up (hes a floaty) and he can throw fireballs to the ledge so he can avoid getting edgehogged...

Id say both good pika and good mario players can make you have a hard time trying to edgeguard him

 

[dandan]

Well, in most cases mario gets sent high up (hes a floaty) and he can throw fireballs to the ledge so he can avoid getting edgehogged...

Id say both good pika and good mario players can make you have a hard time trying to edgeguard him

you can just evade the fireballs though, while he is recovering it is not like he can do a lot of mindgames with fireballs, you know where they are coming from.

i do agree that mario's recovery is really good, but it is not near that of pikachu. for starters, you can jump through mario's fireballs to hit him as he is very vulnerable while throwing them, moreover, the landing lag for his recovery is just atrocious. what seems to be the biggest problem for people who are trying to edgeguard good marios is that they are not edgehogging and not spacing his upb correctly and get hit by the final few hits. once you learn the pathways mario can use, it gets way easier to edgeguard him.

pika has many more variables in his recovery, aside from the other benefits of it being long, fast and giving him some periods of invulnerability. you can of course sweetspot the edge, you can recover using many angles (one of the reasons i hate being on keyboard) and you can also stop his movement horizontally or let him continue his inertia.

just as a final point, the two recoveries mainly part in the way the opponent has to deal with them. with pika's recovery, the opponent has to read how he will recover and act accordingly, if the recovering player has better mindgames, it will be hard to edgeguard him. with mario's recovery you have to react to the recovering player's actions, you do not have to read him, you can see what he is doing and act accordingly.

that is my 2 cents at least.

 

[th3kuzinator]

just as a final point, the two recoveries mainly part in the way the opponent has to deal with them. with pika's recovery, the opponent has to read how he will recover and act accordingly, if the recovering player has better mindgames, it will be hard to edgeguard him. with mario's recovery you have to react to the recovering player's actions, you do not have to read him, you can see what he is doing and act accordingly.

This. Despite his priority, you know the general path a mario will take and can usually plan against it. Pika's is just so fast and has a direction that can change within an instant.

 

[NixxxoN]

Evading fireballs dan? So that means you have to get out of the ledge so you wont edgehog mario.
Yes Pika is fast and has a lot of range and stuff but I insist, reading the opponent properly and using a good attack (for example the large hitbox of falcon spike) you can knock pika back off again as he has no defense, however mario has defense and attacks you while he is recovering.

 

[Battlecow]

Oh, Pikachu's is certainly better than Mario's; I wasn't saying otherwise.

I'd rather guard pika though. He's a lot of fun, even though you botch it a lot, whereas mario is hella annoying when he's trying to get back.

Again, that's just me.

 

[dandan]

Evading fireballs dan? So that means you have to get out of the ledge so you wont edgehog mario.

first of all, you can evade them and return to the edge.

...reading the opponent properly and using a good attack

second, this is not a legitimate argument, if you can read the opponent properly and use a good attack, you will win no matter what the situation (i mean use the perfect attack), the thing is reading a good opponent properly is easier said than done, and it also does not refute the fact that pika's recovery is just objectively better, no way around that.

 

[NixxxoN]

well there are situations in which pika has very few options (when hes far away) and you can read the opponent UNLESS YOU SUCK

also, some people are saying that mario isnt as good because its more predictable so.... Pikachu is also predictable in some degre


BTW how the heck can you evade fireballs and return to the ledge when mario can be at the ledge already lol

 

[th3kuzinator]

well there are situations in which pika has very few options (when hes far away) and you can read the opponent UNLESS YOU SUCK

In those situations where pika is so far away that his horizontal extended upb will barely reach, he still has way more options than mario. At that distance, even if Mario used his rising tornado + his second jump, his fireballs would not reach far enough to pose a thread to an edgeguarder. It is almost a 100% edgehog (assuming Mario even has enough distance to make it back in the first place).

also, some people are saying that mario isnt as good because its more predictable so.... Pikachu is also predictable in some degre

Only mediocre Pikachus are predictable during their recovery. With two decent length spurts, invincibility frames, ability to extend the move at the end, non compass direction, and small landing lag --> pika's recovery is almost hax level.

Mario has good vertical distance and priority (but he only has three types of directions he can recover in and if he lands on the stage, that lag is atrocious. If you grab the ledge mario is either forced to be edgehogged or recover onto the stage where you can easily edgehop some aerial onto him.

BTW how the heck can you evade fireballs and return to the ledge when mario can be at the ledge already lol

I do this with falcon. I either grab the ledge and ledgehop regrab or I just bair the fireballs and regrab. Kinda easy to predict.

 

[dandan]

I do this with falcon. I either grab the ledge and ledgehop regrab or I just bair the fireballs and regrab. Kinda easy to predict.

Yep, and with pika you can always ledgehop uair to hit the fireballs, and depending on mario's position, you either hit him, or manage to grab the edge before he gets there.

and the same applies for other chars, fox can use bairs, and kirby can as well. dk can just upb the fireballs and so on.

 

[Gammelnorsk]

i think falcon has a good taunt and all hismoves are a good taunt and i love goku and i love dragon ballz in and around my mouth so i think that falcon should be top tier in everything because i am THE tnga

 

[Olikus]

i think falcon has a good taunt and all hismoves are a good taunt and i love goku and i love dragon ballz in and around my mouth so i think that falcon should be top tier in everything because i am THE tnga

What about DK bair taunt? Its too cool.

 

[Veetaak]

Why isn't falco on the combo list? He can easily **** from 0% to death with them dairs/nairs/shines/shinebairs

 

[th3kuzinator]

Lol.

10 lols.

This is the smash64 section dude, not melee.

 

[asianaussie]

he's obviously trolling

a) asking why falco isn't on the combo list specifically, as opposed to all
b) he doesnt mention f-smash, u-tilt, lasers or techchasing
c) 21 posts

 

[Fynal]

heres another one i'v been thinking about, though its not really related to competitive smash:

recovery over an absurdly long distance, as in how far can you go before going off the bottom of the screen if the bottom and left/right sides are very, very far away from your starting point

goes something like this i think:

S

Jigglypuff (pound. nuff said)

A

Samus (Bomb recovery)

B

Link (take out bomb, upB, explosion, DI, repeat)
Falcon (Fpaunch)

C

Kirby, luigi, etc (relatively good f-air recoveries)
Yoshi, etc (relatively bad f-air recoveries)

D

everyone else

 

[Gammelnorsk]

wat about pikachu

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

heres another one i'v been thinking about, though its not really related to competitive smash:

recovery over an absurdly long distance, as in how far can you go before going off the bottom of the screen if the bottom and left/right sides are very, very far away from your starting point

goes something like this i think:

S

Jigglypuff (pound. nuff said)

pound is all fine and dandy, fynal, but, jigglypuff doesn't have any upb.

A

Samus (Bomb recovery)

B

Link (take out bomb, upB, explosion, DI, repeat)
Falcon (Fpaunch)

Link can't recover worth **** vertically, bomb recovery hardly ever works, and you'll most likely fail to recover.

MAYBE. falcon kick in the air covers alot of distance but it's getting back to that edge that is the problem.

C

Kirby, luigi, etc (relatively good f-air recoveries)
Yoshi, etc (relatively bad f-air recoveries)

D

everyone else

okay, now to sum this up, this isn't really relevant, recovery teir list is already in the op, and this is just a sub-category, and sadly, not a very good one.

i appreciate the fact you thought about this but most of this has already been discussed. but what the heck.

 

[Gammelnorsk]

soup

he's talking about how far he can actually go with a recovery

he wouldn't be fighting anyone

so gimps are irrelevant

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

mmm..that makes sense. i still think there is a bit of flaw in the post.

edit: that being said hammerheart, i suppose i agree with some of it, but link doesn't cover much distance at all, so that was one of my gripes.

 

[dandan]

the point is that there should not be tiers, as you are trying to limit the distances to infinity, it just separates to the group that can keep moving to infinity (jigs, falcon, link, samus) and the rest.

 

[Sempiternity]

Quick, somebody hack an infinity stage.

THAT WOULD BE SO MUCH FUN

LINK FOR TOP TIER RECOVERY

 

[Fynal]

Edit: nvm soup didnt read your later post

a "big distance" here is, say, 20x width of hyrule

link would go further than, say, pika just b/c he can keep taking out a bomb and upBing, letting it explode while holding it and repeat. not normal bomb recovery

the point is that there should not be tiers, as you are trying to limit the distances to infinity, it just separates to the group that can keep moving to infinity (jigs, falcon, link, samus) and the rest.

yea prettymuch. cept tiers sorta make sense if yer gona talk about this because clearly, for example, spamming pound will get you a lot further than spamming falcon punch

 

[Sempiternity]

Yeah, but what about vertical distance? Pika can still go farther if you keep the vertical distance the same. Link's bomb recoveries really aren't that good, no matter how you spin it.

EDIT: And Pika can still probably go farther even if the vertical distance was infinite just because Link's horizontal air speed/acceleration sucks, and Pika's is great.