Categories of Ass

[Vro]

Every move in Smash has several properties which fall under certain categories. These are, but are not limited to: startup frames, active frames, hitbox, sweet/sour spot, endlag, situation/input.

In PM, there has been an overall shift in how strong or good every move of a character's arsenal is. Many elements of Melee high tiers remains the same from its past, with minor changes and/or brawl input infusions. That is to say, many of the new characters (read:brawl) have had an overall shift in power scaling on a per move basis.

Melee's power scaling, and many other reasons, encourage a movement-heavy style of gameplay. This is largely in part of situation and spacing being highly critical to a move's relative power. Even amazing moves like Fox's nair are extremely volatile in their power level depending on spacing, movement, and timing. The offensive pressure present in Melee today is largely due to matchup experience and fluid movement. There are almost zero combos that work across multiple percent ranges that do not include DI traps/reads or dirty grabs or "frame traps."

Compare this with the combo ability and power level of the current high tiers in PM. Although offering different styles of gameplay is necessary, it must be modest and considerate of precedence and Melee's style.

This is where categories of ass comes into play. Every move must have at least one category of ass. This could mean it is 1/5 - 2/5 or a fail rating for one property or more. I'm talking one aspect must be ass.

How can you be satisfied when a move is 4/5 in multiple categories and it's only downside is it is difficult to land sweet spot? Or it's only semi-weakness was its startup - everything else is amazing. In Melee, almost every move has one category of ass. And the characters that have the fewest categories of ass per move are the best.

Make smaller changes for balance, even as slow as one move per character at a time. One category of ass will save a lot of character design in one fell swoop. Combos should have to be explored and worked upon and approaches should be nuanced and creative. There should be less universal answers and more movement required to compensate or adjust for power level per move.

 

[Paradoxium]

Wow that's a lot of ass, but its a very valid point. It shows how something that seems small has a large impact on balance. The more ya know I guess.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

What moves do we think don't have enough ass?

 

[Strong Badam]

does *** mean anything in particular?

 

[Rarik]

I read *** as ass

 

[Kink-Link5]

And then you have frame 1 jump cancelable on frame 4 full hitbox coverage moves that are safe on block.

 

[Spiffykins]

And then you have frame 1 jump cancelable on frame 4 full hitbox coverage moves that are safe on block.

not invincible, clearly ***

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

the *** confuse me, but i agree with you point!

 

[The_NZA]

What's the *** on fox's usmash?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

What's the *** on fox's usmash?

To be serious, there is a flaw where it doesn't kill characters outright at 70%. Nope, you gotta bring them to the ripe percentage of 80%.

 

[GMaster171]

Zero Suit has a lot of ass

Oh, we're talking about moves?

/joke
Ness' utilt. juggles like a boss, does decent damage, but has crap coverage, the hitbox is on his hands, so his head is uncovered... thats a big head y'know

 

[NightShadow6]

Ivysaur nair man,

 

[Vro]

Think about the way you talked about offensive or defensive strategy in Melee in the past. There are only a few "automatic" moves that are built into the character, such as short hop double fair from Marth (even then the power of that is extremely spacing dependent and the followups are just as dependent). Tons of strategy starts with movement like: wavedash uptilt or dsmash for Samus, dash dance grab for Marth, wavedash ftilt for Sheik. These characters are not just pummeling you with moves at full speed across the stage (there is deliberate spacing). These openings are difficult and often simplified to only a handful of approaches per matchup, due to the difficulty of executing the full power of good moves or due to a lack of good moves.

Compare this to the current PM metagame. Combos are not tight in percent window, sweet spot, di trap/read, movement style, etc. Like, has anyone asked you to RAR a reverse nair sourspot? No, because you don't need to look that far to make a combo. And there is very little reward to understanding that small of a nuance. Do you know why? Because the game will change in the next patch, about 80 moves at least will be required to relearn one aspect or another of it. And because there are literally 400 moves to understand before you can go into just understanding your reverse nair sourspot, why would you try or even ask for difficult offensive strings? No, just make the move combo to the next ****ing move. Like, add some more hitstun and a favorable trajectory so I don't have to ****ing read or react to my opponents DI. I can just "frame trap" and use multiple moves to cover multiple options. Here is my short hop razor leaf fair into running reverse grab. There is no risk to this approach except for full vertical, predicted counter approach. There is no reading or reacting, there is no room for creativity because this threat is too ****ing good. You must respect things that are automatic.

Ask yourself how many things are automatic in Melee. Even a fox chasing you at full speed has you nair you in a correct position, otherwise he can get punished. The number of correct position for that nair are like 3/10. Then you think about how 1 out of those 3 ways you naired him resulted him in going behind you, meaning your followup punishment HAS TO BE REACTIONARY to a certain degree. And then even then the percentage dependency of his nair combos are ridiculous, like you have to understand every single matchup at every percent.

You can list all sorts of moves from Melee that have no ass, but you can count the number of those moves in under one hand for the entire cast. Even moves like shine and nair have extremely volatile power or one glaring category of ass.

We are playing in a very different era where tech skill is faster than the metagame. Watch old games of Melee and understand that defense has always beaten offense. Counter attack and counter movement have always been the highest caliber or play. It is not until 2013 that a Fox wins a national, where his offense and speed managed to beat a classically defensive game. His offense is crazy nuanced. His approaches are careful, precise, and risky.

So you play PM and you're just throwing out moves and getting combos and laughing in your room because HAR HAR ITS ER DEMO. I mean Pit doesn't have to even try to link Fair into something else. It is ****ing fish in a barrel. The defensive mechanisms of this game - movement - are totally undermined by the power level of every move. The best defense mechanisms are honestly powershield, spot dodge, and counter picking the correct stage. Spacing has taken a huge backseat to 1) learn 400 moves 2) learn up to 15 stages 3) combos can start from anywhere 4) approaches are "designed"

tl;dr DAE wavedash uptilt or reverse sourspot nair?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

covering everything with fox/falco nair/bair in melee is super hard and not ass at all in all areas

 

[Nguz95]

Maybe this game is too easy for you.

 

[\Apples]

Basically, many of P:M's non-veteran characters are way better than they should be. It seems they're being designed to be on par with Melee top tiers at first or second sight, when they should be being designed to appear on par with Melee mid tiers at first sight. The reason for this is that players will always find ways to make characters viable in a metagame if they're given the tools. These characters are being given tools which deliberately make them viable with ease. In due time, these characters will excel well beyond their predecessors and some of us are actually already seeing signs of that.

 

[9bit]

Good thing PM is still a demo

 

[Vro]

It's the PMBR's duty to make sure this game doesn't suck **** and become just any other Brawl mod. People pay a lot of money in venue, travel, watching it online, downloading it, time practicing it. This can't be any mod, this is THE MOD. The only game where you can go from one fox to the next. You better believe people are going to be bitter or resistant to non-Melee values.

 

[trash?]

You better believe people are going to be bitter or resistant to non-Melee values.

actually it's mostly just you

we understand the reasonable explanations behind those changes, and we're entirely okay with them, assuming they make sense. for all intents and purposes, I am under the belief that the changes made do make sense to fit this.

if anything, the obsession with keeping otherwise awful concepts from melee "because it was melee" would kill this mod in the long run

 

[StarshipGroove]

Do you really think players will enjoy trying to develop new characters, while getting DEMOLISHED by characters with 11 ****ing years of metagame behind them?

It's like a RPG, when you get a new character halfway through a game. The new character is either already at a high level or it will level quicker than usual to keep up, otherwise it will be a completely useless character. Same is happening here, the new characters' metagame need to improve quicker otherwise nearly no one will even play them, and thus their placings won't improve.. at all.

So they are designed with tools that are well rounded and work well within the context of Melee's metagame. All newcomer's moves are in fact WAY more ass than janky crap like Fox's upsmash, shine or Peach's dsmash, but their moves mesh well and form a coherent moveset, with combos that you can rely on. just like in a real fighting game.
None of the newcomers moves are as good as Fox's upsmash, Falco shine, or ICs infinites. none

The "make the new characters as weak as Melee mid tiers" is ludicrous.

Let's take Lucas. Say he loses all guaranteed combos. Now he's just a crappy low tier Melee character. How do you balance him? Of course, give him a bunch of moves with no ass like the Melee top tiers! But now you have Melee players crying that these moves are teh broke and that he should be nerfed!
SO to appease them let's nerf them again. Now the Melee players are satisfied because they can go auto mode with their character and go medieval on Lucas. Meanwhile Lucas players question why should they play Lucas when they could be playing a character with a decade's worth of metagame and moves with no ass.
If the character has no move with no ass AND no guaranteed combos, he's not gonna be viable. period

Maybe YOU should learn the new metagame, figuring out ways to not get caught in a combo, learning ways to DI against the new opponents and making their lives difficul, instead of wishing your character had a easy way out of a combo. It's like the old saying against Ice Climbers, don't get grabbed. Don't let yourself get punished by a guaranteed combo by having optimal spacing and timing.



But you don't want that right? You want a game where you can go from one fox to the next.



What you want is "hey guys nerf barlw characters so i can win easy money with fox plz"

 

[\Apples]

actually it's mostly just you

we understand the reasonable explanations behind those changes, and we're entirely okay with them, assuming they make sense. for all intents and purposes, I am under the belief that the changes made do make sense to fit this.

if anything, the obsession with keeping otherwise awful concepts from melee "because it was melee" would kill this mod in the long run

"Because Melee" may not be an argument, but it is not a weightless statement. Project: M is intended to be a spiritual successor to Melee, so "Because Melee" absolutely matters because it's the reason the community exists in the first place. As long as PMBR doesn't lose sight of what makes Melee such a great game, I think this mod will still turn out to be THE MOD.

Which brings me to question because I actually have no idea for most of the PMBR... how much of the PMBR actually still plays Melee on a regular basis and not just Project: M? I think it's really important to stay intimately familiar with it because it still is very different from Project: M and in most people's opinions is still the better game. (I am among that crowd, although I used to feel that P:M was superior, that has changed in recent months.)

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Basically, many of P:M's non-veteran characters are way better than they should be. It seems they're being designed to be on par with Melee top tiers at first or second sight, when they should be being designed to appear on par with Melee mid tiers at first sight. The reason for this is that players will always find ways to make characters viable in a metagame if they're given the tools. These characters are being given tools which deliberately make them viable with ease. In due time, these characters will excel well beyond their predecessors and some of us are actually already seeing signs of that.

people with this point of view forget that the ANTI metagame vs melee top tiers is also very advanced

maybe that new PM char looks OP because you haven't figured out a way to beat his new, weird, unorthodox not-much-like-melee stuff?

 

[Oracle]

@starship: lucas actually has very melee like combos. some of his stuff like down b straight up doesn't work if you know how to di it, so he has to figure out where you're gonna di to plan the next hit, just like melee combos.

I agree with everything vro says. the 'auto combos' and easy guaranteed stuff make the game feel cheesy a lot of the time. one of the best things about melee is that you never really 'put down the controller'; in combos and in being comboed you can actively mix up your opponent to get better followups and try to escape, respectively. this isn't as prevalent in pm, which is a little sad because its like the last thing preventing the game from being the best.

characters need to be more like diddy and link with natural feeling combos, less like ivysaur or dk

 

[Oro?!]

I play more Melee than PM as of right now. I assume Fly Amanita is in a similar boat. I cannot speak for a majority of PMBR though, and I know a good chunk of them have quit Melee.

 

[Rat]

I'm one of the ones who hardly plays melee anymore. I like the brawl techniques and melee without them isn't as enjoyable.

Also samus is pretty mediocre.

 

[trash?]

you cannot say "I want more non-free combos" and praise the game where the top 2 contains characters entirely based on free combos where the one "disadvantage" is that it requires you to be a competent player

 

[Oro?!]

Fox combos, especially in Melee, are not easy by any means aside from like 2 hits. Watching what Mango and Silent Wolf do is really incredible, and you are full of it if you think it's easy especially compared to Falco/Marth/Sheik/Falcon.

 

[Strong Badam]

falcon uthrow knee -> epic skill, deserves teh womenz
dk cargo uthrow fair -> lame boring autocombo, strong bad makes his character stupid

never gets old

 

[Scythe]

up throw knee doesn't work from 0 to infinity

 

[Juushichi]

I wish Game and Watch had boring auto-combos.

Some Lucas should identify succinctly how not to get comboed by him and etc, Oracle next time we're in the same place break this down to me during a long set.

As much as I hate Wario, his combos and stuff feel kinda natural to me. Almost... too natural.

 

[ELI-mination]

As it turns out, DK uthrow fair doesn't always work either.

 

[Juushichi]

Strong Bad showed me how to get out of it more or less.

 

[trash?]

Fox combos, especially in Melee, are not easy by any means aside from like 2 hits. Watching what Mango and Silent Wolf do is really incredible, and you are full of it if you think it's easy especially compared to Falco/Marth/Sheik/Falcon.

and? you're still doing combos that are almost fully non-DIable, and requires none of the guessing games that makes smash otherwise enjoyable. an autocombo, if you will, since you're no longer doing anything that requires thought, just execution

if you're going to argue that combos that only work when you suck at DI are "autocombos", then fox is the most autocombo character on the face of this earth

 

[\Apples]

people with this point of view forget that the ANTI metagame vs melee top tiers is also very advanced

maybe that new PM char looks OP because you haven't figured out a way to beat his new, weird, unorthodox not-much-like-melee stuff?

I haven't forgotten this at all and I think you've misunderstood me. There isn't a character in particular I haven't found a way around, but there are a few whose designs really blow. (There are also a few whose designs are brilliant.) The project is getting there but I strongly recommend that more of the PMBR members who make design decisions take some time to play Melee again. Don't forsake our roots.

Juu I hope you're joking about wanting G&W auto-combos, that character is already stupid enough with that silly fat bacon ****.

What you want is "hey guys nerf barlw characters so i can win easy money with fox plz"

Also this is bull****. This is not the perspective at all. Get over yourself.

 

[Oro?!]

What sort of combo isn't DIable that Fox has?

 

[Juushichi]

Silly fat bacon is dumb, but I think you are maybe mistaken about GnW having auto combos.

 

[Scythe]

and? you're still doing combos that are almost fully non-DIable, and requires none of the guessing games that makes smash otherwise enjoyable. an autocombo, if you will, since you're no longer doing anything that requires thought, just execution

if you're going to argue that combos that only work when you suck at DI are "autocombos", then fox is the most autocombo character on the face of this earth

what are you talking about, everything fox does can be DI'd

 

[trash?]

s/o to pointing out the one exaggeration in my statement instead of actually arguing anything

if you can DI out of fox's stuff, you can DI out of DK's stuff. don't blame your own inabilities on "stupid characters omg pls nerf" when the lord and saviors of melee pull the same thing

 

[EpixAura]

I don't know. There are definitely some moves that lack ***, but it was that way in Melee. The only down side of Fox/Falco's shine is that the hitbox doesn't stay out long, and even if it did, they would jump out of it and cancel it anyway. What about Sheik's, or even Fox's grabs? Good range and very strong follow ups. And Fox's Usmash? Sure it isn't the fastest move in the world, but as far as smash attacks go, it stand, far, far above all others (not too far above Marth's Fmash, I suppose): great range, hard to punish, easy to set up, and fantastic kill potential. Not to mention Puff's Bair and Peach's Dsmash (Sure, it can be easy to punish if you aren't shielding it, but all the other properties would be a 5/5.)

I honestly don't think P:M has made this problem any worse. There are some moves that definitely tower above the rest, but how many moves compare to shines or really most of the moves I mentioned? Sure, a lot of the mid tier or below characters had a lot of moves with *** properties, but that's because they were mid tier. One of the goals of P:M is to make everyone high or top tier by Melee standards. If every character was of a similar tier, but none had clearly overpowered moves that one could argue define the character to a degree, the characters would likely end up bland and uncreative, especially with such a large number of them. At the very least, it's a problem for when all of the P:M characters are available.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I haven't forgotten this at all and I think you've misunderstood me. There isn't a character in particular I haven't found a way around, but there are a few whose designs really blow. (There are also a few whose designs are brilliant.) The project is getting there but I strongly recommend that more of the PMBR members who make design decisions take some time to play Melee again. Don't forsake our roots.

Juu I hope you're joking about wanting G&W auto-combos, that character is already stupid enough with that silly fat bacon ****.



Also this is bull****. This is not the perspective at all. Get over yourself.

if you find g&w hot dogs bs just pick a character with a sex kick. beating that **** is mad free with a sexy sex kick
how's that "There isn't a character in particular I haven't found a way around" going