Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

The main problem here is thinking about things that take you out of the game. You can recognize it, but you need to know what to do next. Make it useful. What I always did was say "oh I'm about to win, how will that affect my opponent? what sorts of things in the game do I need to look for?" This allows me to go back to watching and focusing on the game. Your way may be different and you may want to just remind yourself to do good things/whatever you tell yourself normally and of course it's something that can be practiced, so mess around with it.

 

[Kotastic]

When you say recognize what to do next, do you think the same applies to when you're at a significant disadvantage (but obviously much less room for error), and that's one key distinction between good and better players is that better players push their little advantage as much as they could?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah, when people go into sets thinking they can't win, or they take a lead when they "shouldn't" then they start thinking about how important it is instead of abusing these advantages. You have to fix it the same way.

 

[Socrates]

So in the Samus matchup, with proper spacing and ground pressure it's fairly easy to back Samus into the corner of the stage. However, one thing I've noticed them doing to counter this is throwing out a grab, and because I try to keep myself just outside ftilt/dash attack/dtilt range, it works, and i seemingly don't have enough time to react to it(side note: is it better to jump or dash away to avoid tether grabs?). What I'm asking is, once I have Samus on the edge, what are Marth's best options to push in? Grab feels risky because of the large defensive hitboxes she can throw out and any arial is going to get CC'd most of the time (except maybe nair, but approaching with nair is asking for trouble).

My current strategy is to stay outside of attack range and bait them into coming out and committing to something, but this is losing to the aforementioned grab counter because I think they can tell I'm afraid to go in.

 

[maclo4]

Pp I feel like I just had almost like an out of body experience playing melee lol. I was with two friends rotating then one of them started netplaying so that left me and the falco, who is better than me by a little bit, playing just a ton of games in a row. I think the continuousness of the games lulled me into some type of relaxed focus or intensity and I started playing really good. I think the same happened for him too cause we were both just pretty quiet for the most part but playing great. But I found myself approaching way more and better than I ever had which has always been a problem for the mu but the problem is that's I honestly am not sure how I did it haha. Like when I left I was trying to recap what had happened in the games but I could only remember vaguely certain things.
I guess I didn't exactly know what my question was going into this I just thought it was interesting/a cool experience. But a problem is that I don't know if I can channel that type of focus all the time or on command at all. And I don't know exactly what I was doing differently, so I really am not sure how to learn from this experience

 

[A_Reverie]

Hey PP I was wondering what goes through your mind when you take weak hits or successfully CC? I have a pretty bad time acting out of them and was wondering if you had any suggestions on what I should try to be doing. I have the biggest problem dealing with quick jabs, especially Sheik's. Sometimes I can CC them but I end up getting grabbed or hit again anyway. Thanks!

 

[heyitshoward]

Pp I feel like I just had almost like an out of body experience playing melee lol. I was with two friends rotating then one of them started netplaying so that left me and the falco, who is better than me by a little bit, playing just a ton of games in a row. I think the continuousness of the games lulled me into some type of relaxed focus or intensity and I started playing really good. I think the same happened for him too cause we were both just pretty quiet for the most part but playing great. But I found myself approaching way more and better than I ever had which has always been a problem for the mu but the problem is that's I honestly am not sure how I did it haha. Like when I left I was trying to recap what had happened in the games but I could only remember vaguely certain things.
I guess I didn't exactly know what my question was going into this I just thought it was interesting/a cool experience. But a problem is that I don't know if I can channel that type of focus all the time or on command at all. And I don't know exactly what I was doing differently, so I really am not sure how to learn from this experience

I recommend you read The Art of Learning for this.
The chapters "Building Your Trigger" and "Bringing It All Together" are particularly helpful for this specific aspect that you've mentioned. Here is a relevant excerpt from the book:

 

[Kopaka]

I recommend you read The Art of Learning for this.
The chapters "Building Your Trigger" and "Bringing It All Together" are particularly helpful for this specific aspect that you've mentioned. Here is a relevant excerpt from the book:

beautiful book.
"On the other hand, if deep, fluid presence becomes second nature, then life, art, and learning take on a richness that will continually surprise and delight".

"If one player is serenely present while the other is being ripped apart by internal issues, the outcome is already clear".

 

[maclo4]

Wait lol I started that book a few days ago. Excited to get to that part then

 

[lokt]

any thoughts on this set for studying?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6E...loIVgopNrgbvN6bp-Az38&ab_channel=SmashStudios

 

[Dr Peepee]

So in the Samus matchup, with proper spacing and ground pressure it's fairly easy to back Samus into the corner of the stage. However, one thing I've noticed them doing to counter this is throwing out a grab, and because I try to keep myself just outside ftilt/dash attack/dtilt range, it works, and i seemingly don't have enough time to react to it(side note: is it better to jump or dash away to avoid tether grabs?). What I'm asking is, once I have Samus on the edge, what are Marth's best options to push in? Grab feels risky because of the large defensive hitboxes she can throw out and any arial is going to get CC'd most of the time (except maybe nair, but approaching with nair is asking for trouble).

My current strategy is to stay outside of attack range and bait them into coming out and committing to something, but this is losing to the aforementioned grab counter because I think they can tell I'm afraid to go in.

It's usually better to jump the grab because you can land and punish, but dash away works alright if you're pretty far away too I suppose. You might want to try practicing the reaction to the grab since the grab is quite slow.

Are you saying tippered Fair isn't safe on Samus? At any rate you can Dtilt her still so if that's what you used to corner her then just keep on with that. Nair can work too honestly since she can't back up to punish, but you have to worry about her potentially dash attacking under the earlier parts of it I suppose. Grab can work too but you won't get much off of it.

Hey PP I was wondering what goes through your mind when you take weak hits or successfully CC? I have a pretty bad time acting out of them and was wondering if you had any suggestions on what I should try to be doing. I have the biggest problem dealing with quick jabs, especially Sheik's. Sometimes I can CC them but I end up getting grabbed or hit again anyway. Thanks!

Spam shield grab? You can also CC Dtilt or CC Fsmash if you want but those are the main choices I think. If you hold down and a trigger button and mash A you'll get the grab and that's a good way to beat Sheiks always doing the aerial into jab on your shield.

any thoughts on this set for studying?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6E...loIVgopNrgbvN6bp-Az38&ab_channel=SmashStudios

Watched a bit of it, and don't really think it's worth studying lol

 

[Socrates]

Are you saying tippered Fair isn't safe on Samus? At any rate you can Dtilt her still so if that's what you used to corner her then just keep on with that. Nair can work too honestly since she can't back up to punish, but you have to worry about her potentially dash attacking under the earlier parts of it I suppose. Grab can work too but you won't get much off of it.

Tipper Fair is safe? Maybe it's not explicitly unsafe but it feels like the spacing needs to be perfect otherwise you're getting Dtilted, playing with fire etc.

With your recommendations of attacks over grabs, am I right in thinking the general kill strategy against Samus is the same as other floaty characters? That is, patiently get in hits until they lose a stock, no real edgegaurds, etc?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well I never tested vs CC/ASDI down so maybe it's not, but since it's not a guaranteed reaction if you're mixing up well then it's usually alright if you're spacing pretty well. If you run up retreating full momentum retreating Fair it's safe but with no followups, whereas with little to no drift back you take a bigger risk but could get a bigger punish. It's probably up to you how to manage that.

You can kill Puff and sometimes Peach off of grabs, but you don't need to grab Peach/Samus really just hit them and edgeguard/juggle them well(there are real edgeguards) and they die. Same with Puff but you can kill her off of grab pretty well too so she's worth grabbing sometimes.

 

[Signia]

I recommend you read The Art of Learning for this.
The chapters "Building Your Trigger" and "Bringing It All Together" are particularly helpful for this specific aspect that you've mentioned. Here is a relevant excerpt from the book:

And this is why it's worth learning punishment percents. It builds your "pyramid" and allows you to more easily make higher creative leaps toward what is "suspended in the sky just above the top of your pyramid."

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

So, I went 0-2 in bracket. I got destroyed in mirrors and lost a close set to a Sheik. What I am discovering is that playing like Azen (a poor replication, if that) doesn't work well for someone of my skill level. Against Sheik, for instance, it seemed like I was always loosing to dash attack, needle fakes, or boost grab when I attempted to down-tilt or forward air zone outside of her range. Against lower tier characters, the strategy fared better, but it really felt like I was never in control of the match. My main problem is that I'm having trouble understanding how Marth can really force (with the sword) his opponent into consistent loosing situations and manage to solidly hold his area when he doesn't have a projectile.

You've said that Marth players have struggled with this play-style (including you). Do you think a beginning-level player should learn how to properly wall and zone as Marth? What sort of nuances are their in zoning that have made you hesitant to learn it?

 

[Signia]

C capusa27 I don't think you can do only zoning with the sword while holding a position, the risk/reward just isn't there unless you're fighting characters lower down in the tier list that have a lot of trouble getting in. I like to play a pokey style but grabs are really too rewarding to pass up. MarthvSheik is another one of those matchups where grabs into uthrow are very rewarding, and you might not know that by watching Azen.

Most characters you'll be facing can deal with any sword move just fine if they know the spacing they will come out at. You need to make your position less easy to ascertain or else the opponent can simply wait just outside your spacing with anticipation-reactions on your whiffed moves. When one is watching for a specific thing (anticipating), like a whiffed move, it's easier to react to it, but that's a lot harder to do when there are more possibilities to worry about. They also need to be in a particular position to do this, and if you know that position, in theory you can hard read it with a dash JC grab, but the safer bet would be to make your position less predictable with dash dance.

To quickly and precisely move your wall, use dash shield-stop SH aerials to quickly move the wall forward and do no-momentum or retreating aerials, and dash back pivot aerials (or pivot shield stop) to move it back. Dash away into bair for the quickest protected retreat is good to have in mind as well, and in theory dash back pivot dtilt would be nearly impenetrable on the ground.

Marth is a lot better at retreating and staying still with sword moves than he is at moving forward with them, though. There's a bit of a blind spot just outside of his dtilt range. You can WD forward and dtilt across a wide range, but that's a bit slow for that close mid range. That's why I say if they hang out in that range, just dash JC grab em.

A last piece of this puzzle is to mix in running through and past them when they think you'll run away especially it'll improve your stage position. The effectiveness of this varies by the matchup, but if you dash through them at the timing of their overshot attack, you'll make it whiff and you can get a grab. If you're walling and you whiff a not-quite-whiff-punishable attack, then an overshot attack is likely. You might able to stop overshot attacks with a poke, but getting the grab is much more rewarding.

And of course if you're dashing and moving this wall around you can also mix all that up with the usual DD grab game. Focusing too much on landing hits by walling has not been very successful, even if I feel I am heavily outplaying my opponent, so I think walling should mostly be used to manipulate the opponent into doing something that can net you grabs. Grabs need to be the center of your game in most matchups or else the risk/reward won't be in your favor.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

So, I went 0-2 in bracket. I got destroyed in mirrors and lost a close set to a Sheik. What I am discovering is that playing like Azen (a poor replication, if that) doesn't work well for someone of my skill level. Against Sheik, for instance, it seemed like I was always loosing to dash attack, needle fakes, or boost grab when I attempted to down-tilt or forward air zone outside of her range. Against lower tier characters, the strategy fared better, but it really felt like I was never in control of the match. My main problem is that I'm having trouble understanding how Marth can really force (with the sword) his opponent into consistent loosing situations and manage to solidly hold his area when he doesn't have a projectile.

You've said that Marth players have struggled with this play-style (including you). Do you think a beginning-level player should learn how to properly wall and zone as Marth? What sort of nuances are their in zoning that have made you hesitant to learn it?

I don't think it's the strategy but the implementation of it that would be hurting you, same with movement when I talked to Kopaka and Zorcey about it a while ago. Also it can be matchup dependent, you don't want to really move or zone a lot against Falco, Falcon you don't want to zone against really unless at TR or just inside it, but ICs you do want to zone, and so on.

That being said, you probably need to break down the positions more and understand those more. I'm not sure I can give the best overall advice on this since I don't know how exactly how you lost and in what positions. If you give me some positions in Youtube videos we can discuss those.

Beyond that, I'd say Marth forces the opponent into losing positions by either establishing his space in the air or ground with Dtilt, then expanding that established space to the opponent to hit their attacks(since his disjoint beats their moves) or to hit them directly. So maybe you did too many moves in place, or maybe you always did Dtilt after Fair and that made you predictable, or you did the common Dtilt dash back and that led to your being punished. These habits don't establish your space since your opponent knows the holes, so if any of these sorts of things are true we'd need to know that.

 

[Aksorz1336]

I've been having trouble with a situation against a Sheik (I think this applies to more characters); the situation being me trying to get up and back on stage from hanging on the ledge. The Sheik is patiently crouching close to the edge, doing no attempts of punishing my ledge camping (i.e grabbing the ledge from me). She's just outside of me landing a "ledge Fair" but still close enough for a getup attack to hit. She is however at low enough percent to CC it effectively and will counter attack if I get up with an aerial. It feels like all my options are covered: she will react to roll, standup and ledge dash (and tournament winner), she will CC aerials and getup attack and instantly throw out a move, pushing me off stage again (or just killing me).

I guess Hax dashing would be nifty to do here, but I can't do invincble ones reliably. Is there a safe option here or is it just a matter of mitigating the damage?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can get up and hit with second hit of Nair, or you can DJ NIL Fsmash or Dtilt to push her away(and this can be mixed with haxdash). Don't worry about being perfect on haxdash since Sheik is spaced for Fair unless she's close enough to hit you when you get right onstage but it doesn't sound like that's the case. If it is, you can always DJ high and fake going to stage or back to edge and do a similar mixup if you're not confident in your haxdash game.

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP, relatively simple question in the Marth mirror: How do you combat against dash attack?

While yes the raw answer is to stuff it out or shield or whatever, I find that some of my worse losses in the mirror is when I get dash attacked rather often. They would catch me dashing back from d-tilt (or just whiff punish my d-tilt period) or catch me jumping. Watching your videos, you rarely get dash attacked, and I'm wondering what's your strategy against that sort of thing. Does it simply come down to reads and feinting?

 

[Zorcey]

Hey PP, relatively simple question in the Marth mirror: How do you combat against dash attack?

While yes the raw answer is to stuff it out or shield or whatever, I find that some of my worse losses in the mirror is when I get dash attacked rather often. They would catch me dashing back from d-tilt (or just whiff punish my d-tilt period) or catch me jumping. Watching your videos, you rarely get dash attacked, and I'm wondering what's your strategy against that sort of thing. Does it simply come down to reads and feinting?

This sounds like you answered your own question? Dash attack only works if you have some kind of read on the opposing Marth (because if you're not committed you can just shield on reaction). Given this, there's likely some sort of pattern in your dtilts they're catching onto - whether that's your actions beforehand or afterward idk. A looot of Marths just always dash back after dtilt instead of pressing in/waiting, so maybe you're abusing that too much, since you mention it here. I would suggest analyzing your options before and after the dtilt so you're more aware of what you can switch up to keep them from catching on.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, relatively simple question in the Marth mirror: How do you combat against dash attack?

While yes the raw answer is to stuff it out or shield or whatever, I find that some of my worse losses in the mirror is when I get dash attacked rather often. They would catch me dashing back from d-tilt (or just whiff punish my d-tilt period) or catch me jumping. Watching your videos, you rarely get dash attacked, and I'm wondering what's your strategy against that sort of thing. Does it simply come down to reads and feinting?

You probably always want to act in a particular position where they want to dash attack. Holding down, shielding, using more WD would all be helpful options to work in on reaction/into your game, but if you make yourself predictable that doesn't matter. Look at what position you're Dtilting in. Did you do it too far away every time so they read it and just dash attacked you? What about other common situations you get hit in? These questions can often solve it just as much as knowing what beats it. Luckily if you're getting DA'd after Dtilt you can just keep holding down on reaction to punish, so that's helpful.

 

[Zorcey]

You probably always want to act in a particular position where they want to dash attack. Holding down, shielding, using more WD would all be helpful options to work in on reaction/into your game, but if you make yourself predictable that doesn't matter. Look at what position you're Dtilting in. Did you do it too far away every time so they read it and just dash attacked you? What about other common situations you get hit in? These questions can often solve it just as much as knowing what beats it. Luckily if you're getting DA'd after Dtilt you can just keep holding down on reaction to punish, so that's helpful.

I always thought predictabilty was a big reason Marth's get DA'd in the ditto. Wouldn't knowing which direction your opponent is going to dash out of a given position be a great opportunity to DA? Or is it just that there's more to be said in this situation?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well it's not the only reason. It could just be people get into positions or do actions and feel they have to dash there, or someone could often DA when the opponent gets close and the opposing player is still setting up a further approach. So yes predictability is technically correct if you get hit by if often, but it doesn't explain deeper reasons about predictability if that makes sense.

In the ditto, if you do know what your opponent will do then DA is alright in it, but I don't like the risk it carries since the reward isn't that great compared to grabs or getting positioning more safely to me.

 

[Sylarius]

PP, do you have some tips for playing Marth Sheik and Marth Falco? As well as general advice for studying/improving?

For awhile I am/have been the best Marth in my region at Marth v Sheik and in the last PR I was #1, but I manage to lose consistently at weeklies (though, dominating monthlies) and think some of it has to do with either I am better at playing under pressure and/or dodge players in my city that can beat me at monthlies due to location seeding...

But I have lost to two players two days ago, both I respected very much, but are #8 and #10 on the PR, and this is more than my first loss to both of them recently. So now I would like to improve more so I can be more consistent in my city and hopefully province.

The way I play Marth:Sheik is sharking for dd grab and dtilting as a safe option to corner/put pressure on them without putting myself in a position to get whiff punished, and typically only jumping when they do or over grounded needles, though sometimes I dd under pivot grab as well (though I think sh aerial or utilt may be better in this situation...)

and using uthrow fair/uair/bair and attempt to juggle from there.

However I think that part of my struggle with this matchup is putting them in the air repeatedly with uair and increasing their % but being unable to finish the kill, should I be going for utilt/nair more when they are in the air? As well, I reviewed many of your sets vs M2K and Plup's Sheiks, and notice you go for fair/neutral in neutral but that you try to put yourself in a position where you aren't able to be shieldgrabbed (hitting them low to the ground and dashing away or through). Is there anything here you would recommend I do differently or add? As well, what do you focus on when comboing Sheik? Mango in his analysis vid of you vs M2K at MLG 2014 stated you are by far the best at comboing Sheik as Marth.

I've been trying to watch and semi-analyze videos like what you and Druggedfox do, but it is difficult for me to understand every interaction as much as I want to. I feel it's weird I'm in this position of not understanding that much about Melee interactions despite how much of my game is based on adapting which is mental. I would like to shift more towards forcing their character into unwinnable situations in neutral. Umbreon recently commented how my gameplay in the ditto is "excellent" so my inconsistency at regionals and with my punish game is only even more confusing...

with Falco Squid commented eating lasers and dashing away more often would be a good idea. I find Falco specifically fairly difficult because I try to play spacing/dash dance very much and lost to the previously mentioned Falco, and possibly overcompensated by fighting back/swinging more often in my following matches with that Falco...

I will try to read more matchup information and play more friendlies in the meantime but any other advice you may have I would really appreciate, it is weird trying to figure this out on my own, and despite rewatching and 'studying' many Marth vods I have a difficult time identifying components of a matchup besides just whiff punishing, threat ranges, and a little bit of conditioning.

I'm seeded against Ryan Ford in a week and would really like to prepare myself to make it to him, since I will have tough matchups before then and have my regional pride to defend.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You haven't told me how you lose(what moves or what positions beat you) so it's difficult to know what to advise. You may need to add in spaced Fairs vs Sheik because that keeps her from walking in and Ftilting usually and still threatens her well. Also yes if you get her in the air then push for Fair after a Uair or two and you can mix up Ken Combo or going for damage or at least get an edgeguard. Pushing up forever isn't a good decision, especially not every time since you just let them out eventually.

I just did a Falco vs Marth post on the Reddit thread about it so I'd check that out.

 

[Sylarius]

I read your post about Marth:Falco and you mentioned eat laser jab and dash back grab as primary weapons vs Falco, and recently I've been using nair and fair significantly more than I used to in that matchup. There may not be enough time to put those hitboxes out after getting lasered or put them in a disadvantageous situation vs the other options you mentioned, maybe that is why I'm having a hard time playing around lasers/vs Falco? Is eat laser jab that good at stuffing laser approaches?

vs Sheik I think it had to do with me not jumping when she jumped (just sharking on the ground instead) and not being specific enough with my movement to avoid getting needled, cause usually I tell myself to stay under or to the side of Sheik and not diagonally underneath. It's hard for me to remember all of my problems without recording the sets I also think using uair to juggle Sheik too much was a significant problem of mine, now that you mention going for fair/ken combo it boggles my mind how I did not think of that previously. I will try to combo sheik more horizontally in the future and look for opportunities to put her offstage rather than just another uair.

I guess I'm having a problem with Sheik where I can keep her out but can't threaten her very effectively. Using safe fastfalled aerials and safeish dtilt may be my answer to this. When you uthrow Sheik it seems like you go for horizontal aerials much more now that I think about it, I remember vs Plup double fair to tipper fsmash and vs M2K your uthrow nair at 75% where I'd go for uair typically... I'll try to watch some of these sets again and pay close attention to that.

Thanks for taking your time to answer these questions you inspire me in ways both in melee and outside of melee. ^_^

 

[Silmeria]

Hey pp hope everything is well. I have a problem understanding when i should dash dance or when i should threaten. I came to the conclusion that in order to dash dance properly you need to set up a threat by moving forward with a move but whenever i try to move forward i usually get hit by my opponent. So when exactly is it the right time to threaten? Should i just slowly space around their TR and go in when they least expect it or when i have a read on what they're gonna do? Or am i just thinking about this the wrong way.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I read your post about Marth:Falco and you mentioned eat laser jab and dash back grab as primary weapons vs Falco, and recently I've been using nair and fair significantly more than I used to in that matchup. There may not be enough time to put those hitboxes out after getting lasered or put them in a disadvantageous situation vs the other options you mentioned, maybe that is why I'm having a hard time playing around lasers/vs Falco? Is eat laser jab that good at stuffing laser approaches?

vs Sheik I think it had to do with me not jumping when she jumped (just sharking on the ground instead) and not being specific enough with my movement to avoid getting needled, cause usually I tell myself to stay under or to the side of Sheik and not diagonally underneath. It's hard for me to remember all of my problems without recording the sets I also think using uair to juggle Sheik too much was a significant problem of mine, now that you mention going for fair/ken combo it boggles my mind how I did not think of that previously. I will try to combo sheik more horizontally in the future and look for opportunities to put her offstage rather than just another uair.

I guess I'm having a problem with Sheik where I can keep her out but can't threaten her very effectively. Using safe fastfalled aerials and safeish dtilt may be my answer to this. When you uthrow Sheik it seems like you go for horizontal aerials much more now that I think about it, I remember vs Plup double fair to tipper fsmash and vs M2K your uthrow nair at 75% where I'd go for uair typically... I'll try to watch some of these sets again and pay close attention to that.

Thanks for taking your time to answer these questions you inspire me in ways both in melee and outside of melee. ^_^

Take laser jab is only good if you're spaced enough to tipper the approaching SH aerial, meaning you can't really react and do it. So if they're closer to where Dair could trade then you don't want to jab anymore and dash instead usually or PS or whatever. Also if you miss first jab then they start to come in you can react with second jab/dash back so it still works lol.

Sounds good, and I'm glad I can help! It's what I like to do =)

Hey pp hope everything is well. I have a problem understanding when i should dash dance or when i should threaten. I came to the conclusion that in order to dash dance properly you need to set up a threat by moving forward with a move but whenever i try to move forward i usually get hit by my opponent. So when exactly is it the right time to threaten? Should i just slowly space around their TR and go in when they least expect it or when i have a read on what they're gonna do? Or am i just thinking about this the wrong way.

There are lots of ways to solve this because there are lots of ways to play the game. In your case, you need to realize that pushing in forces a reaction from the opponent since you now in unreactable ranges. You could be getting hit because they wanted you to move in and then intercepted you though. I don't really know which it is. If you can narrow that down or give me some more specifics it would help.

 

[Socrates]

PP in your Marth Falco write up you didn't mention take laser>Fair or take laser> Ftilt. Do you feel these options are risky or is it something else? I seem to get decent mileage out of them against agressive falcos, and they have good follow ups at higher percents.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Those are too slow on startup and cooldown to me, so yeah they seem too risky in my experience. I guess if you're far enough away or know for sure they will come in you could use them though.

 

[Silmeria]

Take laser jab is only good if you're spaced enough to tipper the approaching SH aerial, meaning you can't really react and do it. So if they're closer to where Dair could trade then you don't want to jab anymore and dash instead usually or PS or whatever. Also if you miss first jab then they start to come in you can react with second jab/dash back so it still works lol.

Sounds good, and I'm glad I can help! It's what I like to do =)


There are lots of ways to solve this because there are lots of ways to play the game. In your case, you need to realize that pushing in forces a reaction from the opponent since you now in unreactable ranges. You could be getting hit because they wanted you to move in and then intercepted you though. I don't really know which it is. If you can narrow that down or give me some more specifics it would help.

Usually i get hit when the opponent is just dash dancing far from me, or when we're both dash dancing. I guess i just feel like I'm always the one that has to be making the firs move, since i feel like people wouldn't want to be playing against someone who just only dash dances. I don't know if this is what you meant when you said to give you a more specific situation. I'd love to clarify more if you need it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You should attack when you want or play defensive when you want, first of all. But besides that, you both may be deciding to go in at the same time. If you're really coming forward with a move, do so with the intention of hitting them for trying to intercept you, or in other words hit them where they're going to be not where they are and see how that goes. If you want to clarify more or if that doesn't work let me know.

 

[Silmeria]

So you're basically saying that i should just stick to my own pace. And that whenever i move forward i should be aiming to where they are going, so if they like moving back i can just overshoot, and if they like moving forward i shoot just undershoot it. And even if i don't necessarily hit or even get hit i should be paying close attention to how they react?

I have another question, i remember you saying you over dashdanced vs wobbles(i think) i think you said that a long time ago. So my question is, what exactly is over dashdancing, is it when you're just moving with no clear intent, or is it when you are so focused on your movement that you miss a potential punish whether that be by hitting them or getting stage.

thnx for all the replies btw, really means a lot. <3

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah but you can't always react, or not blindly. Sometimes you have to set yourself up to react. Basically it's not that easy but you have the right very general idea.

Yeah over-DD means doing it without intent and instead kind of just waiting or just sitting there for a moment and then throwing something out without regard for what they're doing.

And no problem, I figure these questions can help other people too so it's all good =)

 

[Silmeria]

Can the intent of a dash dance be just waiting outside of TR and seeing how the opponent reacts when you aren't necessarily committing? I feel like the reason I'm so impatient when I'm dash dancing is because i read that comment you said very early on in my career, and just followed it blindly without really giving it thought or questioning it, and just assumed that waiting (even if you're just kind of scouting for moves and/or reactions) is wrong.

 

[Kotastic]

So, I was playing against a PR'd Falcon main in my region who was very good. I've been working hard in that mu, breaking down neutral and my punish game. Although I almost managed to beat him, he managed to clutch it out with his great punish game and decisions in neutral, as well as some flubs on my part. When I asked for criticism, he said that I gave up center stage a lot when I shouldn't and what some better Marths than me in my region does is "dash dance camping."

While I can get down with holding center stage advice and what it obviously entails, I'm not so sure what to think about dash dance camping. Is it simply not approaching when you don't have to? Is it really viable against someone like Captain Falcon, a character that arguably has better reach and raw ground game than Marth? Does dash dance really have meaning at that point when you're just dashing for the sake of reaction from your opponent as opposed to masking intention? I'm the type of person that usually likes engaging first. Nothing wrong with that, right? Just so as long I approach first intelligently?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Can the intent of a dash dance be just waiting outside of TR and seeing how the opponent reacts when you aren't necessarily committing? I feel like the reason I'm so impatient when I'm dash dancing is because i read that comment you said very early on in my career, and just followed it blindly without really giving it thought or questioning it, and just assumed that waiting (even if you're just kind of scouting for moves and/or reactions) is wrong.

Yeah in a general sense that can be right. A DD has a general purpose where you solve problems in a more offensive or defensive way at a time, and a specific purpose with each dash. Everyone has a general purpose but there's little specific purpose often, which keeps awareness away from the general purpose. So yes, waiting with DD is fine as long as you're doing it intelligently.

So, I was playing against a PR'd Falcon main in my region who was very good. I've been working hard in that mu, breaking down neutral and my punish game. Although I almost managed to beat him, he managed to clutch it out with his great punish game and decisions in neutral, as well as some flubs on my part. When I asked for criticism, he said that I gave up center stage a lot when I shouldn't and what some better Marths than me in my region does is "dash dance camping."

While I can get down with holding center stage advice and what it obviously entails, I'm not so sure what to think about dash dance camping. Is it simply not approaching when you don't have to? Is it really viable against someone like Captain Falcon, a character that arguably has better reach and raw ground game than Marth? Does dash dance really have meaning at that point when you're just dashing for the sake of reaction from your opponent as opposed to masking intention? I'm the type of person that usually likes engaging first. Nothing wrong with that, right? Just so as long I approach first intelligently?

If you give up center, usually it means you move back a lot. If that's what this guy meant, then giving up center would contradict with your own assessment of yourself where you say you go in first a lot. If he meant you gave up center to go in, then I think that's okay as long as you don't do it foolishly. In the matchup, you can't afford to excessively swing at all, probably the least swinging of any matchup in the game. So in that sense he may be right. But you can still poke sometimes with Dtilt and still catch jumps with Fair or just run and grab, and when he's cornered you can Fair a ton because he can't do anything. It's much easier to just wait to not swing than to try and find good ways to swing and approach, but if you figure it out you'll have a leg up on many players since you can put pressure on when you need to in a difficult matchup. Since I don't know how you're swinging or anything all I can say is yes it's fine to approach intelligently, but you need to have some defense mixed in and be sure you're following the rules of the matchup.

 

[capusa27]

OK, Dr Peepee

Here is a recording of me playing against a Fox. https://youtu.be/9FbZ_wkJ5pA

You've said that it is not the ideal matchup to try and build a wall, but since I asked you about walling, I may as well give you something. The recording setup was not the most ideal, so I really couldn't get anything against the lower tier characters. My main problem was that I simply couldn't kill Fox even though I had him in lots of edguarding situations. I also was stuck in my movement a lot and didn't convert off of grabs. As for zoning, I'm still working on trying to SHFFL properly, so I never really bothered to change up my timing on N-air and F-air. One thing that I could have done better is use less N-air since a lot of the time I only got the first hit or Fox went under the N-air. I could have also changed my drift patterns and used more fastfalls for F-air and N-air, too, as it seemed like I always faded back the same distance and at the same speed. What sort of experiences do you have of walling Fox on Yoshi's and FoD? Do you think any of that advice could help me? Thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So to be clear, you want to know about edgeguarding and walling in addition to the questions you asked at the end right?