Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

You're on the right track. Thinking how they might respond is a good way to help deepen your understanding here. Will they attack, or just also slightly press forward? Will they move backward, shield? How much of this depends on the position, or the previous interaction, or previous instance of this occurrence? Percent?

I am purposefully not directly answering this to give others a chance to weigh in and also to let you test it without too many of my own biases in the way btw. Though I do think the questions are actually very useful to help you understand your own thinking about this more so I hope you still make use of it.

 

[AirFair]

You're on the right track. Thinking how they might respond is a good way to help deepen your understanding here. Will they attack, or just also slightly press forward? Will they move backward, shield? How much of this depends on the position, or the previous interaction, or previous instance of this occurrence? Percent?

I am purposefully not directly answering this to give others a chance to weigh in and also to let you test it without too many of my own biases in the way btw. Though I do think the questions are actually very useful to help you understand your own thinking about this more so I hope you still make use of it.

Thanks! I'll write back here when I've made more progress testing this, which should be soon.

 

[AirFair]

Alright so I came back from a tournament today, and I am honestly a little bit disappointed.

I think I may have been a bit afraid to lose in tournament, and I wasn't letting myself stop and use movements I know enough. For awhile I've been trying my best to conquer my fears of losing and going as hard as I could in bracket, but tonight I still felt some of that, and I couldn't fully try to play to learn in tournament. So when the matches started, I wasn't really using the things I had practiced that much, and couldn't focus as well on it so I was stuck, which is pretty disheartening looking back on it. Is it more practice that I need?

Because of that, there were times were I wasn't watching the opponent enough and I got hit for it. What sucks is that I wasn't entirely sure where they decided to attack, but I have some rough ideas about my short dashes. I feel like when I got overshot and boostgrabbed by a sheik, who was slightly pressing forward when I did, I missed an adjustment to that somewhere along the way where I could have pressed them instead of letting them catch me before I could get a move out of dash back.

On the brighter side of things, I was more aware of my slower pushes in, and I saw how people reacted early/late. I played against a fox who I didn't need to jump much against once I noticed how early he was committing once I pushed in, with fullhops or nairs that I could pivot grab. It was the same with a falcon who

All in all though, I left the tournament the moment I got knocked out. It wasn't a very good feeling to just cut things off like that, but things just weren't sitting well with me. I know that this is going to be a long process, but there are definitely some mindset and focus things I need to work out if I'm going to let myself move more purposefully, and actually get more ideas than I did today.

I know no one really asked for this at all, but writing and reflecting makes me feel a little better about a pretty lackluster night after all that practice. I thought I would at least report the small things I noticed. Thanks for reading!

 

[HolidayMaker]

I've been studying a lot of Marth/Puff lately, and I have to ask: would you agree with the assessment that while there are Marths that do certain things very well in the matchup, we have yet to even come close to seeing a Marth put it all together in both the macro and micro games? I don't mean to disparage anyone, but even when PPU goes game 5 with Hbox I think there is quite a bit more that he could be doing. Thoughts?

Also, you mentioned that you have the theory on edgeguarding Puff pretty well hammered out a while ago. Any chance of sharing your ideas on the topic?

 

[AustinRC]

I've been studying a lot of Marth/Puff lately, and I have to ask: would you agree with the assessment that while there are Marths that do certain things very well in the matchup, we have yet to even come close to seeing a Marth put it all together in both the macro and micro games? I don't mean to disparage anyone, but even when PPU goes game 5 with Hbox I think there is quite a bit more that he could be doing. Thoughts?

Also, you mentioned that you have the theory on edgeguarding Puff pretty well hammered out a while ago. Any chance of sharing your ideas on the topic?

*eyes emoji*

Let'em know Kevin. Preach it!

 

[vexoskeleton]

I'm kinda just looking for confirmation here but I recently saw a reddit thread wondering about having a playstyle that focuses certain strengths without just trying to improve all around and wondering if that was a better way to improve. This got me thinking of starting to develop my play to be highly reactive and based largely on stage control and keeping the opponent at the corners/ platforms and am wondering if this is something I should pursue? I think at my low level of play especially concepts like stage control aren't focused on very much. I'd just like to hear thoughts on focusing on specific areas of play for improvement for an extended period of time, to know if I should go on this journey of working on my reactionary and stage control playstyle for months on end.

 

[Socrates]

I'm kinda just looking for confirmation here but I recently saw a reddit thread wondering about having a playstyle that focuses certain strengths without just trying to improve all around and wondering if that was a better way to improve. This got me thinking of starting to develop my play to be highly reactive and based largely on stage control and keeping the opponent at the corners/ platforms and am wondering if this is something I should pursue? I think at my low level of play especially concepts like stage control aren't focused on very much. I'd just like to hear thoughts on focusing on specific areas of play for improvement for an extended period of time, to know if I should go on this journey of working on my reactionary and stage control playstyle for months on end.

not PP, but in my experience, having a results based approach to training is usually asking for trouble. To clarify, by results based i mean training with the intent of winning RIGHT NOW. Personally I would recommend working on your fundamentals. The "boosting a single stat" approach might work for now, might get you some wins even, but when those techniques start to lose to more skilled players down the line, it's going to demotivate you a lot.

 

[vexoskeleton]

not PP, but in my experience, having a results based approach to training is usually asking for trouble. To clarify, by results based i mean training with the intent of winning RIGHT NOW. Personally I would recommend working on your fundamentals. The "boosting a single stat" approach might work for now, might get you some wins even, but when those techniques start to lose to more skilled players down the line, it's going to demotivate you a lot.

I am playing to learn but I'm wondering if that 'boosting a single stat' will be worth it to carry on as I make it my core playstyle. I plan to still try to improve the other aspects of my game but not as much as a focus

 

[HolidayMaker]

*eyes emoji*

Let'em know Kevin. Preach it!

I've literally been watching what little footage that exists of Marth/Puff with you all day and have been in awe lol.

You had better pivot tips than Zain in 2014 >.>

 

[Kopaka]

Alright so I came back from a tournament today, and I am honestly a little bit disappointed.

I think I may have been a bit afraid to lose in tournament, and I wasn't letting myself stop and use movements I know enough. For awhile I've been trying my best to conquer my fears of losing and going as hard as I could in bracket, but tonight I still felt some of that, and I couldn't fully try to play to learn in tournament. So when the matches started, I wasn't really using the things I had practiced that much, and couldn't focus as well on it so I was stuck, which is pretty disheartening looking back on it. Is it more practice that I need?

Because of that, there were times were I wasn't watching the opponent enough and I got hit for it. What sucks is that I wasn't entirely sure where they decided to attack, but I have some rough ideas about my short dashes. I feel like when I got overshot and boostgrabbed by a sheik, who was slightly pressing forward when I did, I missed an adjustment to that somewhere along the way where I could have pressed them instead of letting them catch me before I could get a move out of dash back.

On the brighter side of things, I was more aware of my slower pushes in, and I saw how people reacted early/late. I played against a fox who I didn't need to jump much against once I noticed how early he was committing once I pushed in, with fullhops or nairs that I could pivot grab. It was the same with a falcon who

All in all though, I left the tournament the moment I got knocked out. It wasn't a very good feeling to just cut things off like that, but things just weren't sitting well with me. I know that this is going to be a long process, but there are definitely some mindset and focus things I need to work out if I'm going to let myself move more purposefully, and actually get more ideas than I did today.

I know no one really asked for this at all, but writing and reflecting makes me feel a little better about a pretty lackluster night after all that practice. I thought I would at least report the small things I noticed. Thanks for reading!

I'm glad you're writing. It's good to get that stuff out of your head and out there, especially in places like this where we can talk and discuss these things and grow as individuals. It's much more productive than keeping it bottled up and attacking it with brute force, as you said too.

"Because of that, there were times were I wasn't watching the opponent enough and I got hit for it." Would you say that you were more focused on trying to execute what you've been practicing than flowing with whatever your opponent was giving you in the match?

vexoskeleton Focusing on stage control and stuff like what you wrote can definitely help you at low-level play, 100%. Then the fun stuff happens when you learn how to break those rules and give up stage on purpose. To get better from low level play you could watch more, swing less. Observe. Hardly anyone at low level play will be observing, mostly just button pressing and running into stuff. You can learn how to abuse that solidly if you work at it over time : p

 

[AirFair]

"Because of that, there were times were I wasn't watching the opponent enough and I got hit for it." Would you say that you were more focused on trying to execute what you've been practicing than flowing with whatever your opponent was giving you in the match?

I think that's definitely it. My eyes were constantly switching from my character to my opponents and I was not reacting as quickly because of it I think.

 

[Kopaka]

I think that's definitely it. My eyes were constantly switching from my character to my opponents and I was not reacting as quickly because of it I think.

The way I've done it is practice observing slowly at first. I would do things like what we've mentioned here like take slow movements and a small number of dashes before acting. Observing my opponents with a lot of focus. It's kind of like practicing tech skill and trying to do what you've practiced in a match at first. I'll practice fast ledge grabbing over and over and then in a match when the situations come I'll put a lot of focus into executing that, and then over time I don't need as much focus to pull that off because of the practice. ...So I'll practice observing slowly first, then I'll kinda go back and add the practiced observation to a faster pace or if I'm playing well/flowing. I guess you could call it multi-tasking, but I'm just making the observation a part of my movement, instead of just moving for the sake. I eventually add the two together after practicing it a bunch very deliberately. Like I said before, we practice things deliberately over and over, take them into tournament sets and try them out over and over until we feel we can do it unconsciously. So then I guess the big goal would be practicing observation so much that you can unconsciously observe your opponent because you're so good at it

so tldr: deliberate practice of anything over a long period of time eventually turns into one being able to do it so well it just becomes a natural part of their play. I really think this kinda stuff is the same for a lot of disciplines that someone can practice. An instrument, art, anything probably.

 

[Aksorz1336]

Hey PP! Any insight on playing neutral game vs Jigglypuff? I feel like Fair is really good generally, but gets punished really hard when misspaced. Playing around Bair is my biggest problem it seems. Would you try to wait and punish her Bair-walling or would you go more aggressive? Also, are you trying to intercept her Bair coming up, while out, or while coming down? I suppose a combination of the three. When faced against a good Puff I just can't seem to get good openings.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Alright so I came back from a tournament today, and I am honestly a little bit disappointed.

I think I may have been a bit afraid to lose in tournament, and I wasn't letting myself stop and use movements I know enough. For awhile I've been trying my best to conquer my fears of losing and going as hard as I could in bracket, but tonight I still felt some of that, and I couldn't fully try to play to learn in tournament. So when the matches started, I wasn't really using the things I had practiced that much, and couldn't focus as well on it so I was stuck, which is pretty disheartening looking back on it. Is it more practice that I need?

Because of that, there were times were I wasn't watching the opponent enough and I got hit for it. What sucks is that I wasn't entirely sure where they decided to attack, but I have some rough ideas about my short dashes. I feel like when I got overshot and boostgrabbed by a sheik, who was slightly pressing forward when I did, I missed an adjustment to that somewhere along the way where I could have pressed them instead of letting them catch me before I could get a move out of dash back.

On the brighter side of things, I was more aware of my slower pushes in, and I saw how people reacted early/late. I played against a fox who I didn't need to jump much against once I noticed how early he was committing once I pushed in, with fullhops or nairs that I could pivot grab. It was the same with a falcon who

All in all though, I left the tournament the moment I got knocked out. It wasn't a very good feeling to just cut things off like that, but things just weren't sitting well with me. I know that this is going to be a long process, but there are definitely some mindset and focus things I need to work out if I'm going to let myself move more purposefully, and actually get more ideas than I did today.

I know no one really asked for this at all, but writing and reflecting makes me feel a little better about a pretty lackluster night after all that practice. I thought I would at least report the small things I noticed. Thanks for reading!

If you feel you need any more guidance after what Kopaka said let me know. His stuff seemed pretty useful.

I've been studying a lot of Marth/Puff lately, and I have to ask: would you agree with the assessment that while there are Marths that do certain things very well in the matchup, we have yet to even come close to seeing a Marth put it all together in both the macro and micro games? I don't mean to disparage anyone, but even when PPU goes game 5 with Hbox I think there is quite a bit more that he could be doing. Thoughts?

Also, you mentioned that you have the theory on edgeguarding Puff pretty well hammered out a while ago. Any chance of sharing your ideas on the topic?

Marths are bad at most matchups, but Puff is up there on the very bad list.

It's kinda like neutral where you count jumps, but you have an advantage in that she has to deal with you. So you just stay diagonal to her and FH/SH to force her to fall down and use jumps and then she will either try to go over you(and you DJ hit her) or she goes into you(and you fall and hit her or DJ hit her) or she goes to edge(which you Dtilt). That is the really quick and dirty version but if there's a particular weave or position you wanna know I can talk more about that.

I'm kinda just looking for confirmation here but I recently saw a reddit thread wondering about having a playstyle that focuses certain strengths without just trying to improve all around and wondering if that was a better way to improve. This got me thinking of starting to develop my play to be highly reactive and based largely on stage control and keeping the opponent at the corners/ platforms and am wondering if this is something I should pursue? I think at my low level of play especially concepts like stage control aren't focused on very much. I'd just like to hear thoughts on focusing on specific areas of play for improvement for an extended period of time, to know if I should go on this journey of working on my reactionary and stage control playstyle for months on end.

I think that's fine. The only way to improve is to focus on separate areas and then put them back into the whole in my opinion. I'd just be careful of thinking you've find "the way" to improve by focusing on just a few areas.

Hey PP! Any insight on playing neutral game vs Jigglypuff? I feel like Fair is really good generally, but gets punished really hard when misspaced. Playing around Bair is my biggest problem it seems. Would you try to wait and punish her Bair-walling or would you go more aggressive? Also, are you trying to intercept her Bair coming up, while out, or while coming down? I suppose a combination of the three. When faced against a good Puff I just can't seem to get good openings.

How is the Puff weaving when Bairing? It's kinda hard to give advice since I don't know exactly what kind of Bairs you mean. Videos of said Bairs would help.

 

[maclo4]

Fair or nair to stuff aerials against falcon? just wondering your preference

 

[AirFair]

If you feel you need any more guidance after what Kopaka said let me know. His stuff seemed pretty useful.

Alright, I know how I want to tackle practicing movement vs others, as it is something I must build up slowly, like I think about it in practice.

What I feel a little more lost about is the way that I felt during that tournament. I wanted to play to learn and understand my movements, but in trying to switch over to that mindset, I felt the fear of losing in the back of my head, as if the only marker of my progress was my results and wins or something. I've believed and trained myself to value my own effort and improvement over these things, and yet it seemed like I had forgotten that once I got some good placings/wins. Because of that, I couldn't really let myself stop and feel the impact of some of my movements.

I haven't felt myself get nervous in tournament in a good amount of time, but the conflict in my head seemed to be that I didn't want to sacrifice my results. I saw my ranking go up and I didn't want to see it drop. I very much want to understand these things that I have practiced, and I don't want any fear of losing to get in the way of my improvement. Going forward, I can see myself being less invested in the PR and results, and more focused on the improvement cycle, no matter what others may think of my skill. When I feel that I've really progressed, I can go and test myself in bracket again.

 

[HolidayMaker]

Marths are bad at most matchups, but Puff is up there on the very bad list.

It's kinda like neutral where you count jumps, but you have an advantage in that she has to deal with you. So you just stay diagonal to her and FH/SH to force her to fall down and use jumps and then she will either try to go over you(and you DJ hit her) or she goes into you(and you fall and hit her or DJ hit her) or she goes to edge(which you Dtilt). That is the really quick and dirty version but if there's a particular weave or position you wanna know I can talk more about that.

I feel like I have harassing Puffs below stage and about up to the height of the side plat pretty well down (the theory and which tools to use at least). Could you elaborate a bit more on checking the high recoveries? Do you turn your back and threaten bair rather than fair? Do you stand on side plat if available or is that only if full hop won't cover them?

Also, because of the inherent risk in even dash grabbing grounded Puff, how do you feel about going for grabs vs crouch? Still worth trying or focus more on poking her into her shield and catching her there or in the air?

 

[Kopaka]

Alright, I know how I want to tackle practicing movement vs others, as it is something I must build up slowly, like I think about it in practice.

What I feel a little more lost about is the way that I felt during that tournament. I wanted to play to learn and understand my movements, but in trying to switch over to that mindset, I felt the fear of losing in the back of my head, as if the only marker of my progress was my results and wins or something. I've believed and trained myself to value my own effort and improvement over these things, and yet it seemed like I had forgotten that once I got some good placings/wins. Because of that, I couldn't really let myself stop and feel the impact of some of my movements.

I haven't felt myself get nervous in tournament in a good amount of time, but the conflict in my head seemed to be that I didn't want to sacrifice my results. I saw my ranking go up and I didn't want to see it drop. I very much want to understand these things that I have practiced, and I don't want any fear of losing to get in the way of my improvement. Going forward, I can see myself being less invested in the PR and results, and more focused on the improvement cycle, no matter what others may think of my skill. When I feel that I've really progressed, I can go and test myself in bracket again.

I've been looking at good wins as a mark of what I'm capable of, what is possible and not something so static, if that makes any sense. I do think that tournament results are definitely a marker of progress though. It's what people count. Especially if you start consistently beating people and start placing a bit higher and a bit higher more. The practice feeds into that...it's what we practice for isn't it? As I type this I feel I'm walking on a thin tight rope here so I hope I'm getting a solid point across and it helps in some way but I'm not trying to make my word the law or anything. The conflict of being at the point where you want to learn, but you do not also want to sacrifice results is probably common and I'm pretty sure I've ran into that at one point. I think you can still play in whatever state you feel most comfortable in for your own great tournament play and still learn a lot. It could be possible that one learns more when they're playing to win, which would mean being very present, in flow or in the zone, not letting the mistakes get to them or being so overly focused on trying to execute specific techniques or ideas like the stuff we've discussed here and dwelling on that too when the pressure is on. I don't believe that being very present means neglecting or being ignorant of mistakes and continuing to make them without a care in the world. In flow I acknowledge them however it is I do and I keep playing. I could even make the same mistake again. If I allow myself to enter a tournament with a lazy mentality without first checking myself, things get ugly. I might play alright, I might actually be playing fine and what is expected of me, but whenever mistakes happen I can't stand it. I'm lazy so I'm not present at all. Things happen that I do not like and then they continue to stay there in my head and I keep them there, not letting them off to the past. If I'm present, things are beautiful. I'll mess up, but I continue to flow. I'm present. I really want the win. On my best days I've thought about the win more than the loss so I ended up leaning more towards the outcome I wanted more than the one I did not want. Try that out and see what happens. I don't care nearly as much about the mistakes I've made the more present I am. I'm playing to win but I'm learning as I go. Maybe being deeply present does not guarantee one plays at their A game. It could just mean that it allows for more clarity. Fogginess and confusion cloud my mind whenever I allow myself to compete lazily and practice lazily. If I were to enter a tournament tomorrow with the same mentality I carried to work today, I'd be a mess. We gotta check ourselves. I need to hold myself to what it is I write otherwise I'd be a walking contradiction so I too need to make sure I carry myself in this way =P

 

[Socrates]

...Maybe being deeply present does not guarantee one plays at their A game. It could just mean that it allows for more clarity...

I like this. While you can learn from tournament matches (I often end up learning more about myself than the opponent) I usully reserve tournament matches for applying what I've learned in a subconscious way. Thinking "i need to do this or that" usually ends up getting in the way of focussing on the match. You have to have a little bit of trust in your subconscious and the training you've done.

Instead of thinking about applying specific aspects of training I usually limit myself to focussing only on the position of the opponent and what they're doing and trusting that I'll be able to make the right decision based on where they are.

 

[maclo4]

I've been playing against this sheik who baits me with spotdodge a ton and it's super frustrating because it feels like you have time to punish him but then he spotdodges again and you whiff. I've been using more fair than grab in these situations because if my fair gets spotdodged at least I can be spaced well on my get grabbed. I realize this sounds like a nooby problem but punishing spotdodge is legtimately super hard!! It's lasts like 22 frames total and only 7 of them she is vulnerable! That's like on the low end of reactability, and if you aren't just standing still waiting for it then you have to lose a few frames to dash from wherever you are to where she is. I've been practicing the timing but I can only get it consistently if I am just standing waiting for it. Once I start trying to punish from dash dance I can barely ever react to it before the next spotdodge comes out. Do you have any tips for dealing with this or learning to punish it?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Fair or nair to stuff aerials against falcon? just wondering your preference

I prefer Fair whenever possible. Beats more cleanly more moves and allows for better followups usually.

Alright, I know how I want to tackle practicing movement vs others, as it is something I must build up slowly, like I think about it in practice.

What I feel a little more lost about is the way that I felt during that tournament. I wanted to play to learn and understand my movements, but in trying to switch over to that mindset, I felt the fear of losing in the back of my head, as if the only marker of my progress was my results and wins or something. I've believed and trained myself to value my own effort and improvement over these things, and yet it seemed like I had forgotten that once I got some good placings/wins. Because of that, I couldn't really let myself stop and feel the impact of some of my movements.

I haven't felt myself get nervous in tournament in a good amount of time, but the conflict in my head seemed to be that I didn't want to sacrifice my results. I saw my ranking go up and I didn't want to see it drop. I very much want to understand these things that I have practiced, and I don't want any fear of losing to get in the way of my improvement. Going forward, I can see myself being less invested in the PR and results, and more focused on the improvement cycle, no matter what others may think of my skill. When I feel that I've really progressed, I can go and test myself in bracket again.

It sounds like you already know what to do, but you quit doing it. This is a dangerous trap for many people and why many burn out or stop improving. They get satisfied. You have to do good habits daily, not only to stop the weeds from growing in your mind like that, but to take your good mentality even farther. You can feel bored if you quit growing mentally with the practice, so keep attacking it from new angles to push your performance and motivation higher. This challenge will likely give you what you need to keep at it.

I feel like I have harassing Puffs below stage and about up to the height of the side plat pretty well down (the theory and which tools to use at least). Could you elaborate a bit more on checking the high recoveries? Do you turn your back and threaten bair rather than fair? Do you stand on side plat if available or is that only if full hop won't cover them?

Also, because of the inherent risk in even dash grabbing grounded Puff, how do you feel about going for grabs vs crouch? Still worth trying or focus more on poking her into her shield and catching her there or in the air?

Depends on where Puff is. If you mean for edgeguards, then yeah generally side platform works fine unless Puff is super high in the air and then you switch between top and side. Don't sit on the ground if Puff is high, too many Marths do this and it lets her down for free. I prefer to work Fair because it starts at the top of Marth's head whereas Bair starts below him so Fair gets to a useful spot faster, plus you can dash into it if need be.

Dash grab can be okay vs crouch, but she can avoid this with early startup frames of jump(it's dumb). So that means if she jumps or WDs on reaction she can dodge. My way of countering this is to just dash grab a little late to catch her as she jumps or moves before an attack comes out, or to condition her to wait more using Dtilt. Also you can grab Puff out of the air with pivot grab a lot more than you think so it's not like you need to risk that often. Despite all of this, Zain dash grabbed Hbox many many times in their set and wasn't really punished for it iirc so the current realities are probably useful to keep in mind.

I've been playing against this sheik who baits me with spotdodge a ton and it's super frustrating because it feels like you have time to punish him but then he spotdodges again and you whiff. I've been using more fair than grab in these situations because if my fair gets spotdodged at least I can be spaced well on my get grabbed. I realize this sounds like a nooby problem but punishing spotdodge is legtimately super hard!! It's lasts like 22 frames total and only 7 of them she is vulnerable! That's like on the low end of reactability, and if you aren't just standing still waiting for it then you have to lose a few frames to dash from wherever you are to where she is. I've been practicing the timing but I can only get it consistently if I am just standing waiting for it. Once I start trying to punish from dash dance I can barely ever react to it before the next spotdodge comes out. Do you have any tips for dealing with this or learning to punish it?

1. Dash dance with more purpose(set yourself up to where you're just looking for it or other reactions)

2. Figure out what you/Sheik does before spotdodge happens so you can use those patterns to your advantage

3. Keep practicing the reaction with 1 and 2 in mind.

Beyond that I think if you're not sure you should Fair/Dtilt it like you've been doing because something is better than nothing off of a read.

 

[AirFair]

Thank you guys for responding to me, it really helped me a lot, and I have new things to think about, and a not so new challenge to overcome again.

 

[HolidayMaker]

Yes, I did mean for edgeguards. Thanks for the response.

 

[Kotastic]

Question about dash back: As for defining the purpose for it, is it simply to read someone approaching you at a distance? And thus, when labeling the purpose of dash back, you prime yourself to whiff punish someone attacking like with pivot grab or something? I want to make sure I'm labeling my tools right, as I think dash back is fairly effective if I undershoot a lot or bait with fox-trot another dash back.

 

[Dr Peepee]

When thinking of how to define tools, I think it's most helpful to start with tool characteristics and options out of it. So dash back shifts your position backward, which has its own meanings, its quick, it shifts Marth's hurtbox, he can go into run from it and can also WD/jump from it as well as dash forward or wait and dash away again for options, as well as let it stall out for a quick primer. We have to consider how best to use the tool(maybe we need to dash away when too close, or maybe we do it to be defensive or to encourage the opponent to come forward since we have opened up space) for ourselves and the opponent. Then there are instances where we do a full dash back or a partial one and their own effects and so on. I can go on about this, but I'm trying to press the point that we can analyze tools deeply if we look at their characteristics and options and then apply various situations to them.

 

[lokt]

what are some possible options here: https://youtu.be/DZq_JB1A7ZY?t=10m51s

and here: https://youtu.be/DZq_JB1A7ZY?t=10m55s

that you could have used to beat spotdodge?

 

[Kotastic]

So recently, I moved to UCI as my college of choice. For our welcome week tournament, I had the privilege to fight against two top 100 players who were named Squid and Faceroll. I noticed one prominent thing was that they tended to whiff punish me a lot after I would throw a fair in place or d-tilt. Then their punish game were brutal so yeah there's that (but at least I didn't get 4-stocked woo).

This isn't the only instance where getting whiff punished has gotten me into trouble. I played this one Fox player in TMT, and he whiffed punish me a decent amount. Although our set didn't show it much, in our friendlies he definitely had a read on when I would swing.
https://youtu.be/kecpTq4DBm0?t=3m18s

Do you suspect this is the case because my forward dashes carry little meaning? Lack of overshooting? Stationary Marth is pretty bad?

I did play some Marth mirrors in friendlies with people around my level. How I like to currently play the mu is to whiff punish their d-tilt at low percents with grab. However, they would never give me the d-tilt at first. They were whiff punishing all my approaching d-tilts, then I decided to overshoot their dash back with my d-tilt. It was then all the sudden they started approaching me back. All it took was one overshoot d-tilt, and that gave me windows of opportunities whiff punish them accordingly despite me only overshooting once. Is it then that my forward dashes have meaning? That I conditioned them to move forward, and thus reducing my whiff punished problem? I'm trying to connect this to the pressure we discussed earlier, does it relate to that?

While I would understand that I can easily overshoot against Sheiks that would whiff punish me, I'm a bit more confused on how to approach it against fastfallers, as they love jumping. Marth doesn't have good approaching aerial tools (okay he does, but it's a lot more riskier than d-tilt). Is it a matter of swinging at the right places?

 

[Dr Peepee]

what are some possible options here: https://youtu.be/DZq_JB1A7ZY?t=10m51s

and here: https://youtu.be/DZq_JB1A7ZY?t=10m55s

that you could have used to beat spotdodge?

He faded back so if I dashed in I could only have grabbed later to beat it or Fsmashed or something. If I SH'd I could have Dair/Fair/Nair'd as well and I could have beaten Ftilt with drift on some of it too so that's probably safest.

Hm for that second one, I just looked super late so probably a similar answer but maybe I couldn't have jumped on that one and gotten a hit unless I reacted earlier.

So recently, I moved to UCI as my college of choice. For our welcome week tournament, I had the privilege to fight against two top 100 players who were named Squid and Faceroll. I noticed one prominent thing was that they tended to whiff punish me a lot after I would throw a fair in place or d-tilt. Then their punish game were brutal so yeah there's that (but at least I didn't get 4-stocked woo).

This isn't the only instance where getting whiff punished has gotten me into trouble. I played this one Fox player in TMT, and he whiffed punish me a decent amount. Although our set didn't show it much, in our friendlies he definitely had a read on when I would swing.
https://youtu.be/kecpTq4DBm0?t=3m18s

Do you suspect this is the case because my forward dashes carry little meaning? Lack of overshooting? Stationary Marth is pretty bad?

I did play some Marth mirrors in friendlies with people around my level. How I like to currently play the mu is to whiff punish their d-tilt at low percents with grab. However, they would never give me the d-tilt at first. They were whiff punishing all my approaching d-tilts, then I decided to overshoot their dash back with my d-tilt. It was then all the sudden they started approaching me back. All it took was one overshoot d-tilt, and that gave me windows of opportunities whiff punish them accordingly despite me only overshooting once. Is it then that my forward dashes have meaning? That I conditioned them to move forward, and thus reducing my whiff punished problem? I'm trying to connect this to the pressure we discussed earlier, does it relate to that?

While I would understand that I can easily overshoot against Sheiks that would whiff punish me, I'm a bit more confused on how to approach it against fastfallers, as they love jumping. Marth doesn't have good approaching aerial tools (okay he does, but it's a lot more riskier than d-tilt). Is it a matter of swinging at the right places?

LOL you attacked when you were both on the complete opposite side of the level so that would be your first issue(he was around TR or a bit inside when you started, but still you had a low chance of hitting). I believe you were hoping he would run in right when you swung, so you'd need to be more sure of it before taking such a big commitment. It looked more like you reacted to his dash in and had to swing to protect yourself more than you wanted to come in at that time and I would examine it from that perspective as well.

You have to show people you can get them before they will give you something a lot of the time. And it might not be that your forward dashes didn't carry meaning before, but they carried different meaning. Additionally, you probably encouraged the opponent to approach on their own independent of your dashes since you called them out with the deep Dtilt. So there can be influences of the past situations not directly related to your current movement influencing things, be sure to keep that in mind.

Fair is AMAZING at air to air play and that should not be underestimated. It beats everything. If spacies FH away you just follow with your own FH and Fair them. If they DJ that's just an easy DJ Fair many times(if they started out cornered anyway). SH it's a harder reaction but I would not ignore Fair's usefulness here too.

 

[Kotastic]

Ah, now when you put it that way it seems completely obvious lol. I'll have a bigger presence of mind to know my stage positioning.

I understand the power of fair and how it can basically beat any opposing aerial options. So it can't be whiff punished by other character's aerials, provided that they aren't halfway across the stage?

Although my set vs. Faceroll wasn't recorded, these two clips were an accurate simulation of what happened
https://youtu.be/1zd5FHu8ELk?t=19s
https://youtu.be/1zd5FHu8ELk?t=9m49s

I got outplayed by using some in-place aerials and getting whiffed by his tilts/grabs. Just as long as I use my aerials and d-tilts accordingly, I think I should make better progress?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It can be whiff punished depending on what timing you swing, how close you are, and how much you drift in or back. But if they are also in the air it's very bad for them.

The problem with those clips is Zain put the Fair RIGHT in front of Sheik and if he either spaced a bit farther back or forward he would have been fine.

 

[Kotastic]

I see. Zain's problem is applicable to mine, and I'll continue to work out refining my gameplay. As always, thanks for answering my questions

 

[Ladder]

Recently I have been struggling to get out of the corner against good players.
My go to way to escape is to land on the platform and work from there with shield drops or run of arials, good players seem to just be able to react to this though.
I would like your insight on fighting out of the corner as marth, please.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sometimes you can run through them, sometimes you can rush them down to get out, sometimes you can slowly push your way out by continually threatening the rush down or by putting out moves that force them back a little. You can also wait if you're playing an antsy person and let them come to you and then you can pivot grab and throw them offstage. You can also fake doing that. You can also waveland off the top platform to the center, or get on the platform then runoff to center instead of just shield dropping.

You have options but ultimately it is a bad position for Marth. You have to explore all of your options to make the most of it.

 

[Kitcatski]

Hey pp, I vaguely remember reading somewhere about how you believe that a player shouldn't necessarily be thinking about everything situation while playing but should instead strive to have seen the situation many times so you sub concious know what to do, although I could be remembering wrong and just talking out of my ass. If I am correct though could you elaborate more on this?

 

[Dr Peepee]

There's a certain problem that exists when I'm teaching positions I notice. Some players only want to learn exactly what beats their stuff, and this has the problem of tunnel-visioning and not learning more possibilities beyond your own ideas of good and bad. On the other hand, some people want to learn all positions and possibilities and in doing so bog themselves down with "what-ifs" and never get around to the practical nature of matches and their own preferences. The balance between the two is mainly what I'm talking about. Flesh out what you like, but also be aware of other possibilities for situations or ways to approach the game.

 

[frapple_apple]

Hey PP! So I was playing Dext3r, top 64 player, in a melee tournament the other day. He 2-0'd me with sheik, but both games were last stock last hit. I was doing well in neutral, but his punish game was much better than mine. I suppose I have a two-part question: 1) How should I be DI-ing Downthrow at low percents to minimize damage? 2) If I grab under platform, in what situations should I upthrow and try to tech chase with an uptilt/upair and in what situations should I opt for fthrow? Because I feel like whenever I get a grab under plat, I either upthrow, he techs away and I can't follow up or I f throw, he DI's away and I can't get a dtilt follow up. Or I I grab him and downthrow him offstage, I either grab ledge and he goes for side plat or I stay onstage and he goes for ledge. I realize now this post is kinda all over the place, but any help you can give me would be appreciated, thanks!

 

[Dr Peepee]

1. Usually slight up and away. You may have to mash jump to avoid regrab which can lead to its own problems, but generally it's strongest.

2. Will depend on stage and positioning and percent so that's not an easy question. If he's above maybe 18% before throw you can probably put him on the platform though. I'm honestly not sure how long tech chasing on Fthrow/Dthrow work but you should practice that at any rate since it can only help. All else fails throw him off like you said, but mix in more runoff DJ Dair and if he's not directly under the edge then runoff Fair is super good unless Sheik's percent is really low. Grab edge let go Fair is also good even at low percent because it can turn Sheik around and keep her from snapping directly to the edge with up-B. You can see how grab edge DJ Dair and runoff Dair can mix with this well then. That's probably enough to get you started anyway.

 

[Socrates]

Do you mean grab ledge let go Fair after you throw sheik off the stage? I’m having a hard time seeing what option that would cover

 

[Dr Peepee]

I do mean that. This is for when Sheiks drop low before DJ/up-B'ing and may wait past the point of runoff DJ Dair or past the point of you having edge invincibility when you grab it.

 

[frapple_apple]

1. Usually slight up and away. You may have to mash jump to avoid regrab which can lead to its own problems, but generally it's strongest.

2. Will depend on stage and positioning and percent so that's not an easy question. If he's above maybe 18% before throw you can probably put him on the platform though. I'm honestly not sure how long tech chasing on Fthrow/Dthrow work but you should practice that at any rate since it can only help. All else fails throw him off like you said, but mix in more runoff DJ Dair and if he's not directly under the edge then runoff Fair is super good unless Sheik's percent is really low. Grab edge let go Fair is also good even at low percent because it can turn Sheik around and keep her from snapping directly to the edge with up-B. You can see how grab edge DJ Dair and runoff Dair can mix with this well then. That's probably enough to get you started anyway.

You're the best man, I'm going to a tournament on Saturday, I'll let you know how well I'm able to apply your advice!