Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[ItsJusOwl]

Hey! I started a Flowfeedback analysis of PP Swedish at Genesis 3. I'd love for you guys to kind of critique whether or not the focus in my analytical skills is in the right place. I plan on spending another.. long amount of time on this and would like feedback in the process!

https://flowfeedback.com/feedback/hMnfXGShRwe6LXjiW

I should probably specify, my goal for doing this micro-game analysis is to improve my own play and to help shed light onto others about what good options good in melee.

Also, out of respect for my heroes, I wish to understand the implications of what people say makes amazing players like PPMD good, even though there's a good 50,000 things that my limited knowledge will not allow me to cover in this set.

Just a quick skim of a couple of the sentences and a thumbs up or a bit of guidance would really be appreciated <33

My main concern is that doing this type of in depth micro-situation observing won't benefit my actual melee, or my time is better spent elsewhere (as all my friends have constantly been telling me.)

 

[Kotastic]

ItsJusOwl I'd love to hear your thoughts and analysis on Marth mirrors

 

[ItsJusOwl]

ItsJusOwl I'd love to hear your thoughts and analysis on Marth mirrors

I could totally do a Flowfeedback analysis on a set of yours if you'd like but again I'm not an expert haha

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hey! I started a Flowfeedback analysis of PP Swedish at Genesis 3. I'd love for you guys to kind of critique whether or not the focus in my analytical skills is in the right place. I plan on spending another.. long amount of time on this and would like feedback in the process!

https://flowfeedback.com/feedback/hMnfXGShRwe6LXjiW

I should probably specify, my goal for doing this micro-game analysis is to improve my own play and to help shed light onto others about what good options good in melee.

Also, out of respect for my heroes, I wish to understand the implications of what people say makes amazing players like PPMD good, even though there's a good 50,000 things that my limited knowledge will not allow me to cover in this set.

Just a quick skim of a couple of the sentences and a thumbs up or a bit of guidance would really be appreciated <33

My main concern is that doing this type of in depth micro-situation observing won't benefit my actual melee, or my time is better spent elsewhere (as all my friends have constantly been telling me.)

Dislcaimer: I'm not a top player
I'll do some annotations, too...

Going through these micro-situations will definitely benefit your Melee, but there might be methods that would benefit you at a faster pace. Annotating everything can take long and often a big portion of your attention will be on what to write.
When doing match analysis, I make notes when something stands out to me and has possible other implications, which can very from a few times per set to a few times per game (example: Marth CC's Fox's nair but slides further than I expected, Fox shines but Marth grabs afterwards and outspaces the shine. I hadn't thought about combining trajectory DI + CC to manipulte spacings before and this might be applicable pretty much every time a CC occurs).
From my experience, making very detailed notes usually didn't help that much, because my attention only was partly on the game and the notes often reflected my current understanding of the game and only sometimes expanded upon it.

I'm pretty convinced automatical annotations would be very helpful for the video annotation project you have, but it sounds very complicated, too.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Hey, back with another question similar to last time.

How do you "measure" your improvement? So for example, let's say I wanted to improve on my juggling, then I specifically worked on that for a week. How can you tell how much you've improved at something?

 

[Dr Peepee]

First of all thank you PPMD for your dedication to this thread. I'm kind of bad at putting my thoughts into words so here we go.

How I recognize 'reading moments'? Such as when Falco shoots a laser, reading what he will do next. As a beginner/intermediate to the mental side of melee, what kind of actions should I be observing to get my reads? I feel like I always focus on too much and get overwhelmed or too little and end up playing pretty much braindead except for very obvious reads.

Think of what his best options are in that position and in general. Then think of what he's done before. Now think of how you can do things before or after he shoots to influence his choices. Maybe he laser into Nairs a lot and you notice that. Then whenever he lasers at many ranges you either dash back after laser so you can pivot grab or roll so he corners himself.

https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=11m2s

At this timestamp, you combo tipper fh fair into upair to juggle peach instead of using weak fair to knock her off stage.
5 seconds later, you combo sh tipper fair into weak fair to knock her off stage.

Is there a situational reason you make these 2 contrasting decisions?

The Uair hits her out of her float and hurtbox distortion whereas the Fair may have missed. The second time I was higher up and her percent was higher so the Fair true comboed.

Hey! I started a Flowfeedback analysis of PP Swedish at Genesis 3. I'd love for you guys to kind of critique whether or not the focus in my analytical skills is in the right place. I plan on spending another.. long amount of time on this and would like feedback in the process!

https://flowfeedback.com/feedback/hMnfXGShRwe6LXjiW

I should probably specify, my goal for doing this micro-game analysis is to improve my own play and to help shed light onto others about what good options good in melee.

Also, out of respect for my heroes, I wish to understand the implications of what people say makes amazing players like PPMD good, even though there's a good 50,000 things that my limited knowledge will not allow me to cover in this set.

Just a quick skim of a couple of the sentences and a thumbs up or a bit of guidance would really be appreciated <33

My main concern is that doing this type of in depth micro-situation observing won't benefit my actual melee, or my time is better spent elsewhere (as all my friends have constantly been telling me.)

Yeah if your main concern is going deep into situations not helping, don't worry. That's exactly what I did over and over to get good. I can see you're earnestly trying to do that here so it looks fine to me.

Hey, back with another question similar to last time.

How do you "measure" your improvement? So for example, let's say I wanted to improve on my juggling, then I specifically worked on that for a week. How can you tell how much you've improved at something?

Usually for me I know because I just hit wayyy more juggles than I missed before and when I miss now I know why. You could always do it by percentage if you were unsure. Supposing you got 25% of juggles in friendlies before(just count juggle situations and if you got a hit or not in vods) but then got 50% after practicing it you could be pretty sure that your efforts helped you grow.

 

[AirFair]

Alright, so I've done a lot of thinking about the idea that I posted here a couple weeks ago, and I think I've reached some new ideas.
The original post for reference:

So I've been thinking about the decision points within dashes for a bit of time now, and I had some thoughts about forward movement when approaching.

The thing that has taken up my attention is the dichotomy between rc dtilt and dash wd dtilt. As of recently, I have become more aware of the small differences between the two, with the threats in each action, and the ways you can adjust each part. I'm not really used to doing actions out of dash wd but that's something I want to ask about after this.

The main difference between the two that I am most aware of is the speed. Though they both cover similar distances, they are different in the time it takes for the dtilt. Although the rc dtilt is slower, that got me thinking about how I could take advantage of that. This ties back to the original post that I am referencing with this one.

My idea is that I can see how early/late my opponents respond to me pushing in and use that to decide whether I want to approach fast or slow, and then I can mix up accordingly depending on my opponent's movement. For those who are late to respond, I can take advantage and press in quickly, to keep them guessing. For those who are more aware of my intention and respond faster, I feel like I don't have to commit like I do with dash wd and can throw them off with just a change in tempo to slower.

I'll be able to test this idea out tomorrow in friendlies/tournament as long as I keep my focus, but this seems like a pretty neat idea. I'd love to hear what yall think.

The initial idea is basically summed up in that last paragraph.

What I was thinking about as a result of this was how marth picks good times to dtilt.

I think in the beginning, when I am using movement to get information about my opponent's responses, I can see how they are responding to one kind of approach and use that (i.e a long dash in to a dtilt for an opponent that backs up when I press forward) After that, I can use a faster approach to hit them/throw them off when they are more wary of my slower approach (like I've gotten a good punish off of it, or they are not attacking). This kind of abuse of quick attacks can keep my movement more ambiguous when done properly.

This is one example that I liked when thinking of this
https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=32s 1st interaction
https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=1m9s 2nd interaction

I will edit this later if I think of anything more.

 

[HolidayMaker]

You talk about perhaps forgoing throwing Fox/Falco up onto platforms until, IIRC, 21% for Fox. I assume this has something to do with their tech/slide off options vs upair and utilt. What options exactly disappear for them/appear for you at those percents?

Also, Rishi recently had a set with Hbox that, despite getting 3-0'd, looked rather close at times and he showed some great moments, particularly in his recovery. Would you care to share some thoughts/criticisms? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZu2Z4knASw

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah the main reason you wait until 21%(on BF) is because at that point you can begin to do the SH Uair coverage, which could lead to other potential SH coverage now that we know about the slideoff DI stuff. You could probably do it a little earlier and still be able to follow DIs and tech rolls depending on various positional things, but I don't really know all of that right now.

Rishi looks like he shields too much and seems to jump at a range where he can get aerialed back by puff. Also looks like Hbox just kinda played pretty bad after the first stock for some reason.

The situation around 2:13 Rishi sits in place and gets lulled into doing nothing which is really exploited by Hbox and something he sets up a lot. Rishi can either threaten Hbox on the platform more, intercept Hbox after he gets off the platform and begins to move in, or move back when Hbox starts to come in. Staying in that one spot and not doing much like Dtilt/fadeback Fair etc to protect yourself is really a classic Hbox/puff tactic.

I'll just stop there.

 

[Sylarius]

Neat questions.

Fox loses to Marth pretty badly like Leffen says if you play grounded, so you just need to learn to threaten your grab and Fair well with occasional Dtilt pokes for encouragement. Fox can feel overwhelmed by this larger move range and push into you, which can get you grabs like what you saw here.

Thank you for your answers

in the past, I would use sh nair against Fox on FD and the odd time sh double fair, to defend against Fox coming at me with aerials and when I feel I'm giving up too much space by moving backwards that I should attempt to defend instead. But I noticed that your aerial usage against Fox is much rarer. Theoretically if a Fox is using their nair/dair at a range where it's difficult to dash back/wd backwards and grab them, do you typically try to grab them before they short hop nair? As well to me there's different kinds of raw grabs - one that I go for when I feel I have a read on their dash forward or to intercept their running shine or overshoot, and one where I am trying to grab them out of their dash dance or short hop lasers from far away.

Here's one where I grab based on my guess of their forward movement:

https://youtu.be/_UvgvD_Hyf8?t=376

The other where you grab them from much farther would be like when you grabbed Armada at the start of the Genesis crew battle after dtilting him twice, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngt_3mke-Xw&t=1731

And this is also a different spacing than when you are going for a grab immediately when they are close and likely approaching you, which to me is the most unexpected and abrupt of the somewhat raw grab spacings, like here:
https://youtu.be/3TIPxDu-vf4?t=412 (it looks like you go for it multiple times knowing Lucky is coming at you a ton)

and here, where Mango dashes back first and shines you: https://youtu.be/g8v_NgYou3k?t=462

Do you feel that grab in all of these situations is an appropriate thing to do in these situations if you have a half-read or even a full read? Would you choose to dash dance, use safer moves, or move around instead when you aren't really sure what they are going to do, and only go for these options when you feel you have an idea? I go for grabs in these situations of course, but out of the 3 I feel the most unsure about the first one I listed, and then the second one. The third one where you grab Lucky/Mango seems the least bad to me as it has pretty much no telegraph and can catch people by surprise so often, and it seems like I have a lot more success with that grab when I'm getting run down. All applying to the Fox MU btw, against Sheik the only semi raw grab I will go for is pretty much the last one, and Falco I have so much trouble with it feels more like praying than calculated or read-based grabs.

Anyway I've typed enough long paragraphs :x tl;dr how do you feel about raw grabs from different spacings? Is a read enough to act on it? Is a read necessary to act on it? Do you feel a raw grab in neutral is or can be appropriate, and how does the distance from the other character affect that? How do you approach grabbing a fox that uses short hop aerial uses in a range where it's difficult to dash back grab/getting semi overshot? (Vary dash dance ranges more so you are taking longer dashes and wavedashes rather than smaller ones?)

Thank you for taking the time to read this!

 

[Sylarius]

Hey! I started a Flowfeedback analysis of PP Swedish at Genesis 3. I'd love for you guys to kind of critique whether or not the focus in my analytical skills is in the right place. I plan on spending another.. long amount of time on this and would like feedback in the process!

https://flowfeedback.com/feedback/hMnfXGShRwe6LXjiW

My guess at 0:32 is that jab and dtilt would be extremely difficult to punish if even punishable at that spacing and could give a hit or put swedish on the defensive if they hit, whereas something like grab if whiffed (swedish was crouching) could get punished. Since swedish was in lag from his dtilt PP had time to use something noncommittal like that.

The rest seems pretty correct to me, I think PP was concerned about slideoff DI which is why he used dthrow instead of putting Swedish on the platform, since at low % even tipper uair doesn't give much even without adding slideoff DI into the equation, and he was looking to ledge trap Swedish.

Both are just my impressions however.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thank you for your answers

in the past, I would use sh nair against Fox on FD and the odd time sh double fair, to defend against Fox coming at me with aerials and when I feel I'm giving up too much space by moving backwards that I should attempt to defend instead. But I noticed that your aerial usage against Fox is much rarer. Theoretically if a Fox is using their nair/dair at a range where it's difficult to dash back/wd backwards and grab them, do you typically try to grab them before they short hop nair? As well to me there's different kinds of raw grabs - one that I go for when I feel I have a read on their dash forward or to intercept their running shine or overshoot, and one where I am trying to grab them out of their dash dance or short hop lasers from far away.

Here's one where I grab based on my guess of their forward movement:

https://youtu.be/_UvgvD_Hyf8?t=376

The other where you grab them from much farther would be like when you grabbed Armada at the start of the Genesis crew battle after dtilting him twice, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngt_3mke-Xw&t=1731

And this is also a different spacing than when you are going for a grab immediately when they are close and likely approaching you, which to me is the most unexpected and abrupt of the somewhat raw grab spacings, like here:
https://youtu.be/3TIPxDu-vf4?t=412 (it looks like you go for it multiple times knowing Lucky is coming at you a ton)

and here, where Mango dashes back first and shines you: https://youtu.be/g8v_NgYou3k?t=462

Do you feel that grab in all of these situations is an appropriate thing to do in these situations if you have a half-read or even a full read? Would you choose to dash dance, use safer moves, or move around instead when you aren't really sure what they are going to do, and only go for these options when you feel you have an idea? I go for grabs in these situations of course, but out of the 3 I feel the most unsure about the first one I listed, and then the second one. The third one where you grab Lucky/Mango seems the least bad to me as it has pretty much no telegraph and can catch people by surprise so often, and it seems like I have a lot more success with that grab when I'm getting run down. All applying to the Fox MU btw, against Sheik the only semi raw grab I will go for is pretty much the last one, and Falco I have so much trouble with it feels more like praying than calculated or read-based grabs.

Anyway I've typed enough long paragraphs :x tl;dr how do you feel about raw grabs from different spacings? Is a read enough to act on it? Is a read necessary to act on it? Do you feel a raw grab in neutral is or can be appropriate, and how does the distance from the other character affect that? How do you approach grabbing a fox that uses short hop aerial uses in a range where it's difficult to dash back grab/getting semi overshot? (Vary dash dance ranges more so you are taking longer dashes and wavedashes rather than smaller ones?)

Thank you for taking the time to read this!

Sometimes I run/WD under them, sometimes I aerial, sometimes I run/Bair offstage and go to edge lol it just depends. I could even use a side platform occasionally if I wanted.

Generally those were all good grabs to go for but they were also achieved for various reasons such as the meta being run in Dtilt for Fox. The Mango grab was way too early though obviously, and the Lucky grabs should've been earlier/I should've used WD/aerials to reset and establish my space first. If you're not sure, then try to gain information if possible. Move in then back, zone a little, etc. Grab is great in a risk reward sense if you're not overly predictable though.

I think usually you need some level of confidence in grab for it to work, but I will admit sometimes just throwing it out moving forward is great at catching people poking at me or starting to come in before their move has started. That can keep people in check even if it fails so it's still useful I think.

Hopefully I got most questions answered there lol.

 

[maclo4]

I won my first tournament last week! Just a small local at my college (abt 20-25) with pretty much only people from my college, but it still felt soo good! I know I haven't posted in a while, but I still read it so thanks EVERYONE and PP so much for this thread its so helpful. Abt to go again tonight and hopefully get 2 in a row.

Short question tho: do you think techchasing falcon in the same way you techchase peach would be reliable or worth doing? Im talking about covering tech in place with something like dtilt or fair (probably dtilt for falcon) then reacting to tech rolls away or in. I tested it a bit cause i was having a hard time with the tech in place reaction, but I was having a hard time telling if i was just bad at it or its just kinda hard. If falcon is cornered especially it seems juicy, but like in the middle of the stage I probably wouldnt go for it. Thanks

 

[Dr Peepee]

I just like regrabbing both characters in tech chases. Since Falcon is heavy you move slower so I'm not sure you can position for Dtilt or Fair if he DIs (down and) away on throw most times but maybe if you can get those you can get RC Fsmash which can be a useful mixup with Dtilt. Just a quick though I had. If you can push Falcon to the corner even if you miss the followup that's still really good so I'd prioritize beating out rolls to center and in place when you're closer to center and then going from there as another possibility.

 

[Kopaka]

Oh that second one is going to be harder to explain lol. Okay so before that grab, I Nair him after I get Baired. Then I push in a lot to see what he does. He comes in so I move back to punish that. As he confirms I move back/decides he was gonna go in hard anyway I confirm he's still coming in out of my first dash back so I do another and then pivot grab him. At the point I pivot grab there isn't much he can do to beat me in that particular spacing so it was definitely a win for me.

The subtlety of this little situation you explained in that post about you vs Leffen there is blowing my mind. That was all done in like 6 or 7 actions and in such a small time? there's so much more going on that I've never realized before and I've watched those sets a lot. It's almost unbelievable. Gosh that looks so difficult but it looks so simple too. I guess simplicity doesn't come without difficulty. How much focus do you even need to do all of that? Is that really how you play all the time? Right now I'm thinking there's no way I could do something like that so often it just seems so impressive but it's soooo subtle. I'm more blown away by this than any crazy combo I've seen

and I've watched other analysis of these sets and heard people talk about them but no ones ever looked at it that deeply.

 

[maclo4]

Any tips for refocusing once your play is already slipping? I got 6-0'd in grands yesterday by my colleges best player but I beat him in winners finals 3-2 when we were both playing pretty solid. I honestly just couldn't pivot grab for chaingrabs and had a lot of trouble acting between lasers (he plays falco). I tried to take time between games and stocks but it just felt like such an uphill battle even tho I had 2 whole sets to spare. And this EXACT situation has happened another time with the same player.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The subtlety of this little situation you explained in that post about you vs Leffen there is blowing my mind. That was all done in like 6 or 7 actions and in such a small time? there's so much more going on that I've never realized before and I've watched those sets a lot. It's almost unbelievable. Gosh that looks so difficult but it looks so simple too. I guess simplicity doesn't come without difficulty. How much focus do you even need to do all of that? Is that really how you play all the time? Right now I'm thinking there's no way I could do something like that so often it just seems so impressive but it's soooo subtle. I'm more blown away by this than any crazy combo I've seen

and I've watched other analysis of these sets and heard people talk about them but no ones ever looked at it that deeply.

I could have broken it down further if I wanted to, but yeah this is why I think neutral is infinitely cooler than combos lol the depth is just so satisfying. At any rate, simplicity can still be complex. Making smaller circles, etc =p

Any tips for refocusing once your play is already slipping? I got 6-0'd in grands yesterday by my colleges best player but I beat him in winners finals 3-2 when we were both playing pretty solid. I honestly just couldn't pivot grab for chaingrabs and had a lot of trouble acting between lasers (he plays falco). I tried to take time between games and stocks but it just felt like such an uphill battle even tho I had 2 whole sets to spare. And this EXACT situation has happened another time with the same player.

What did you do when you took time? You take any deep breaths? Did you focus up in the same way you did before winners? Maybe you need more meditation so you can observe your thoughts more clearly and catch these weak mental points. It's hard to say with limited info.

 

[Kopaka]

I could have broken it down further if I wanted to, but yeah this is why I think neutral is infinitely cooler than combos lol the depth is just so satisfying. At any rate, simplicity can still be complex. Making smaller circles, etc =p

No way oh my god lol. I'm so glad we have the Josh Waitzkin of Melee here otherwise I'd be so in the dark about all of this. inspiring though and I just want to dig deeper into the rabbit hole

 

[maclo4]

I could have broken it down further if I wanted to, but yeah this is why I think neutral is infinitely cooler than combos lol the depth is just so satisfying. At any rate, simplicity can still be complex. Making smaller circles, etc =p


What did you do when you took time? You take any deep breaths? Did you focus up in the same way you did before winners? Maybe you need more meditation so you can observe your thoughts more clearly and catch these weak mental points. It's hard to say with limited info.

I was mostly just trying to put the image of how I want to play in my head, along with some deep breaths. It didn't really seem to work tho haha. But it was the sane thing I did for the first set so idk. I might've just been thinking about losing and about how last time I got 6-0'd it felt so bad and I really didn't want that to happen again

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah it sounds like you didn't notice your different thinking patterns. I'd say working on meditation to notice those thoughts can go a long way for you.

 

[Kotastic]

Showerthought time on the Marth Sheik matchup. Others are free to answer as well.

This is on Battlefield, where Marth is in center stage. Sheik is on the left/right platform, standing there menacingly.

What do you do?

She can choose to shield --> shield drop aerial, drop-off fair or bair, FH needles, or choose to jump towards top platform. They're all incredibly good options.

Already, Marth being in center stage risks him getting hit by FH needles. So, I need to immediately move in. Jumping towards the height of Sheik from center seems ineffective, as not only does he get hit by needles, but since Marth doesn't fall fast, Sheik has ample time to just shield drop or drop off aerial. Additionally, Sheik can dash off platform --> fair to hit Marth at center as well. Up-tilt is very ill-advised because shield drop. While Nair can be good for potential shield poke, that is likely not going to happen due to Sheik's amazing shield. I can opt to dash under and attempt to crouch cancel, but Sheik can counter this by either just tomahawking or take center stage. I think a spaced bair can counter CC as well.

I've been thinking a lot about those plethora of options Sheik has with Battlefield platforms and how to potentially counteract them. I've talked about it to other local Marth mains, but they all cop out and say just dash dance away from it. If that truly is the correct answer, then at that point I think Marth loses the matchup then at BF/DL, and perhaps FoD and YS to some extent. Maybe I'm overemphasizing Sheik's options at the platforms because I don't know the correct solutions to them, but I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you run up and Fair in place/retreating SH Fair you will dodge FH needles(won't really need to Fair either if your reactions are good), you will catch her running forward, you will be safe from shield drop(MAYBE if she does some insane shield SDI she can hit you but if you're spaced well I don't think it matters), so that just leaves her going to top platform or running off the other side of the platform or shield dropping anyway. Those are all resets at best. If you're that worried about shield drop/needles though you can slightly push in and then stand out of Fair range and wait to punish her landing, and if she moves in you can hit/retreat at that point.

Also, FoD/YS platforms are so much easier for fighting platform-based Sheiks because you can hit with more moves and even link more together more quickly to make their lives more difficult, especially on most FoD platform heights.

 

[Kopaka]

It's almost like neutral has a combo game element to it when dashes in neutral or other parts of it have definitions, kind of like how we do certain moves in combos because they push our opponent off stage or rack up damage while keeping them above us/them inactionable. We know why we do moves in combos because that's more often looked at and talked about and we know more about the reasons in that aspect, there's just a lot more to it in neutral. Lots of unexplored territory. The potential this has on improvement looks pretty substantial.

I want to ask some questions but I'd be late for work if I fleshed them out here so more on this later lol

 

[HolidayMaker]

If you run up and Fair in place/retreating SH Fair you will dodge FH needles(won't really need to Fair either if your reactions are good), you will catch her running forward, you will be safe from shield drop(MAYBE if she does some insane shield SDI she can hit you but if you're spaced well I don't think it matters), so that just leaves her going to top platform or running off the other side of the platform or shield dropping anyway. Those are all resets at best. If you're that worried about shield drop/needles though you can slightly push in and then stand out of Fair range and wait to punish her landing, and if she moves in you can hit/retreat at that point.

Also, FoD/YS platforms are so much easier for fighting platform-based Sheiks because you can hit with more moves and even link more together more quickly to make their lives more difficult, especially on most FoD platform heights.

Despite this, I see you that you would usually strike to BF over FoD vs Sheik when you played the matchup. Do you just prefer the greater size vs more grounded Sheiks or what?

Also, yesterday I managed to beat a pretty decent ICs player from my region, but I walked away with some thoughts/questions on the matchup:

When I watch Marths that are ostensibly good at the matchup (Shroomed, PPU) they tend to use a lot of rising fair into either double jump or double fair. This leads to pretty big openups but it also seems to carry an element of risk, particularly when there aren't any immediately nearby platforms to bail out to/mixup. The way I tended to play it was a lot more spaced SHFFL fair->d tilt or jab, and grabbing/nairing to create my bigger openups once I got a seperation, taking to plats to avoid blizzard/projectile us. Can you help me understand when the rising fairs in neutral are appropriate so that I can create bigger openings earlier on? I don't want to take needless risks but at the same time I'd love to create more seperation/nana killing opportunities, which is undoubtedly the part of the matchup I'm weakest at.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I just prefer the extra DD movement, but admittedly the variance in FoD makes me uncomfortable. I really should strike BF more.

I really don't like the rising Fairs against ICs either unless the Fairs can knock down if they hold down maybe, but I've been grabbed out of well spaced and low momentum rising Fair before so I really do not like it either. I think as a mixup to lower Fair and with a bailout plan as you said it's good, but I wouldn't opt for rising Fair unless I was sure I could pop up/knock down or as a mixup to safer Fairs.

 

[HolidayMaker]

Interesting. Any thoughts on the full hop rising fairs Shroomed as been doing a lot lately? Seems very safe although definitely a strategy that works far better on DL/BF.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Those are definitely safer and I think Marth's FH can be weirdly effective against ICs since they have to stay grounded and WD to get under you with a specific rising FH hitbox which takes a while, so I don't mind it.

 

[Kopaka]

What I find interesting about neutral is that you cant really recreate these "combos" in neutral in the way that you could with actual combos. Maybe one could go and practice the exact inputs they'd watch you do in a neutral situation and then go and do those exact inputs in a real match and things would probably turn out differently, so yeah there's something deeper going on that wouldn't really be possible to copy. The principles though, that deeper thing, the...context of the situation and the understanding of tools/movement choices/assessing what the opponent is doing, ones own preferences...etc is different. I think those can be taught. And from learning those we stem our own ways of figuring out situations instead of trying to mimic what we see on the surface of players we watch often. That being said, I'm starting to think it's worth it to practice controlling my inputs to build a sense of what this is like. Guess this is also going back to what I wrote earlier about practicing basic stuff slowly over and over. Losing control could mean losing glimpses of points of where things could be noticed and decisions could be made in small spaces. (I think in my case sometimes losing control could be doing things too fast/"excess movement"). I'm not sure I would want to fault anyone or myself for doing that though because pressing a lot of buttons in Melee can be fun lol. . Maybe it is like what was described about a straight punch in the smaller circles chapter of Art of Learning.

https://youtu.be/_WDzxC2zXlM?t=120 A set of mine, watching 2:01 up until I get shined. I move back after the grab confirming that Fox decides he wants to go in. I see that he moves away during some part of the shield grab and also in some part of the shield grab I see that he's deciding to move in. (The grab itself I think was a hard guess on him moving in as I got back on stage) I think I'm already pretty close to him after the grab finishes so I don't want to move in plus the whiffed grab at this spacing was enough for me to think he'd want to move in anyway. After that first dash back, I dash back in while he's still coming at me, and at this point he's running and right there is where I could have gotten a grab but instead I dash back and get shined. Maybe I could have wavedashed back after the grab and he would have ran into nothing and I could have done something from that or dtilted after it too, but I don't want to get too crazy with alternates right now and instead focus on the purpose of each of my actions here and what went wrong for me. I'm really starting to think that if you're going to dash dance or do anything really in spots like this you've gotta make it count. The way he was moving during my ledgedash looks like he was trying to dodge some aggressive act coming back on stage so maybe I could have noticed this and moved in earlier. No matter what I did either moving in or moving away with a dash or wavedash I have to be observing them.. Instead of panicking on inputs I'd have a stronger sense of what I can do in such a tight space. Just the actual options I can do, talking about like wavedashing or dashing or shielding etc, are limited and they're limited for him too, but I think one works through those limitations with this deeper understanding of those options like we've been talking about, confirming he's moving in with just this one dash and then moving back in and getting a pivot grab instead of moving back in and then moving back away and getting shined. It's a lot of those decisions with limited options that make games. The more I look at situations where I put a start and end point to them it feels like there is some number of things I can do and my opponent could do (without going wild with alternatives) so I think trying to do everything all at once in a match is dangerous. Flexibility, or adaptation might be what this is all about.


This is cool and all but the hard part is practicality. Am I able to let go, to possibly forfeit some results for long term improvement? That's where one of the challenges is. Winning matters to me otherwise I'd have never decided to study the game like this. To win in this way, especially consistently seems like a prime satisfaction instead of getting by every once in awhile. I feel like a beginner starting out again thinking what many beginners think like "Wow Melee is so fast, how could one ever move around like that, even wavedashing is a lot of inputs" etc. But it's that 'condensing technical information' thing talked about in AoL all over again. I went through that period when I first started out with the game, I'm just facing it again so I feel like a beginner, facing that same doubt but with a new set of technical information to look at.

didn't mean to write a blog post here, sorry there were no real questions : p

 

[Dr Peepee]

Your example is interesting because it shows you getting punished for excessive, unrefined movement and also likely panicking. Let me explain, starting from 2:01:

Really we could start before the grab because of the shield you pop up, but anyway you grab. Fox moves away to about TR or a little inside of it, meaning you could react if he ran right in and attacked. However because the grab is likely a panic grab you may not be thinking at this point(due to situational unawareness or tourney nerves or some other reason). This means you may be so worried about an opponent flying at you that you don't recognize when you do and don't have time to react or think. It may also mean you haven't planned such things. Fox moves in as you move away about the same time meaning he felt confident to chase you and you felt the need to move back. This doesn't necessarily mean anything but what you do from here is important since he has now closed the gap and you are forced to make a decision. Will you pivot aerial or run in and grab or something else? You move in and are facing Fox very closely now. Just as the clock hits 2:02 you move away as Fox is right on top of you. This means you moved forward more out of muscle memory and/or panic to me than with intent.

I could say a lot about this, but I'd also like to address your initial paragraph. Doing things as I do them is not inherently bad or useless. But you need to have it broken down into all of the individual movements and compound movements I use and not think of all of my actions as a collective whole when practicing. This means don't practice a ton of dashes as I do them but rather practice 2-3 dashes that I do and see how it feels or how it works. Yes I will switch these things up quickly based on my opponents' responses but you can make the most out of trying to understand a few actions here or there and practicing and feeling how it could work and testing it out. This all still comes from really learning individual tools though, so if you haven't done that then you won't understand how tool combinations work, as you more or less said.

As for the situational awareness, I'd suggest paying more attention to Fox's actual dash SH Nair-ish range and remember in this specific situation that most players will be spacing for edgehop Fair which lets you get on the lip of the stage pretty easily. Also to use your dash back time to observe and not to do it just to do it when possible.

Hopefully that can provide some useful insight. I feel I could have gone more into how exactly to practice but wasn't sure how to suggest it yet. Still if you feel you are making some adjustments and this is useful then that's fine. If you'd like to ask about it though I'll try to sort out my ideas on it.

 

[Kopaka]

I think that grab was a panic grab if I remember how I was feeling in that moment correctly. This is humbling and tough to swallow at the same time. Are you then saying that the grab was a tell that I was basically panicking in some way so my next movements are going to be shaky? A lot of what happened after the grab came from why I went for that put up shield -> grab? (nerves not thinking etc/what you wrote) I'm making adjustments yeah, I'm going to practice in that way you mentioned first

 

[Dr Peepee]

The grab itself at the timing etc that it was done, and out of the shield no less, made me feel like that was a pretty strong possibility. When combined with your movement I was confident it was a panic grab. This is how analysis goes: you eventually build enough evidence to get a strong theory for things like this and can begin applying it to matches you just begin to look at.

Now you didn't HAVE to have shaky movements after the panic grab. You can catch yourself in that lag of the grab and see what's happening and make the most of it. And as you suggested, if you didn't put up the shield/grab as you did you would also have felt differently afterward.

It is difficult but change often is. On the other side, if done right, is a very deep and rewarding experience every session so I hope you will stick with it.

 

[Kopaka]

I want to make sure I understand what you wrote about the practice part. Are you suggesting I don't necessarily practice all of the actions you did in this clip up from your Nair up until your grab https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv74JXJBFwk&feature=youtu.be&t=117 and then like, name that whole group of actions something and pull that 'collective whole' in a match but instead practice some parts of those actions and see what they feel like etc?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yep that's absolutely what I meant.

 

[lokt]

Dr.pp, can you explain why you go for run up shield here?

https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=4m14s

 

[Dr Peepee]

Armada had been going for a lot of dash attack and FC Bair recently so I ran up shielded to beat both and did a quick confirm that wasn't what he went for so I Faired next.

 

[Socrates]

Your example is interesting because it shows you getting punished for excessive, unrefined movement and also likely panicking. Let me explain, starting from 2:01:

Really we could start before the grab because of the shield you pop up, but anyway you grab. Fox moves away to about TR or a little inside of it, meaning you could react if he ran right in and attacked. However because the grab is likely a panic grab you may not be thinking at this point(due to situational unawareness or tourney nerves or some other reason). This means you may be so worried about an opponent flying at you that you don't recognize when you do and don't have time to react or think. It may also mean you haven't planned such things. Fox moves in as you move away about the same time meaning he felt confident to chase you and you felt the need to move back. This doesn't necessarily mean anything but what you do from here is important since he has now closed the gap and you are forced to make a decision. Will you pivot aerial or run in and grab or something else? You move in and are facing Fox very closely now. Just as the clock hits 2:02 you move away as Fox is right on top of you. This means you moved forward more out of muscle memory and/or panic to me than with intent.

I could say a lot about this, but I'd also like to address your initial paragraph. Doing things as I do them is not inherently bad or useless. But you need to have it broken down into all of the individual movements and compound movements I use and not think of all of my actions as a collective whole when practicing. This means don't practice a ton of dashes as I do them but rather practice 2-3 dashes that I do and see how it feels or how it works. Yes I will switch these things up quickly based on my opponents' responses but you can make the most out of trying to understand a few actions here or there and practicing and feeling how it could work and testing it out. This all still comes from really learning individual tools though, so if you haven't done that then you won't understand how tool combinations work, as you more or less said.

As for the situational awareness, I'd suggest paying more attention to Fox's actual dash SH Nair-ish range and remember in this specific situation that most players will be spacing for edgehop Fair which lets you get on the lip of the stage pretty easily. Also to use your dash back time to observe and not to do it just to do it when possible.

Hopefully that can provide some useful insight. I feel I could have gone more into how exactly to practice but wasn't sure how to suggest it yet. Still if you feel you are making some adjustments and this is useful then that's fine. If you'd like to ask about it though I'll try to sort out my ideas on it.

This little micro analysis is immensely helpful with the learning process of analyzing matches as a whole. Especiall the inferences of things being intentional vs “panic”. I think my biggest struggle with analysis is I have a hard time figuring out why top players do certain things. As in, I sometimes can’t tell if they REALLY meant to do that, particularly when i feel it was a questionable decision. Do you have any tips for identifying flubs vs nerves vs hail mary “Trust me I know what I’m doing” options?

 

[HolidayMaker]

Hi PP,

Quick question about tech chasing Falcon near ledge. I know you've talked about the matchup at length here but the search function wasn't doing it. Once you get past a certain level Falcons are very good at DIing Fthrow to ledge either directly or with a slide off. Because the di they use to do this is often similar to the di that makes dthrow tech chasing difficult, what can I do about hitting that crucial extension in this position? Is it just a "git gud and hit the d throw techchase" moment? or is there some other way I can bandaid the situation? When they actually go off the stage or tech near ledge it's obviously money but fewer and fewer Falcons tech roll to ledge as skill level increases, or at least that's what I find.

Also, I did some lab work on the full hop rising fair vs ICs and I found it starts beating CC/leading to worthwhile dividends at 40 percent almost exactly, and works well on any stage except maybe FD, although I can't comment for sure in regards to Pokemon/FD. It works well primarily after SHHFL fair on shield or after fair->dtilt/jab. Just something you and others may want to store in the memory banks for later.

 

[Dr Peepee]

This little micro analysis is immensely helpful with the learning process of analyzing matches as a whole. Especiall the inferences of things being intentional vs “panic”. I think my biggest struggle with analysis is I have a hard time figuring out why top players do certain things. As in, I sometimes can’t tell if they REALLY meant to do that, particularly when i feel it was a questionable decision. Do you have any tips for identifying flubs vs nerves vs hail mary “Trust me I know what I’m doing” options?

Something that helps me a lot is seeing players continue to play worse at a specific point and continue on for a few seconds/extended period such as games or stocks. Really I'm not sure of a good way to recommend this without saying learn the game more deeply to see them clearly messing up, but I will suggest this: if you see something and you're not sure, keep all theories open. Keep looking at before and after moments and build from there. If you never figure it out, that's fine. You can and should learn from all levels to avoid this type of thing being consistent anyway. The most important thing is to deepen your game understanding, and the psychology will follow.

Hi PP,

Quick question about tech chasing Falcon near ledge. I know you've talked about the matchup at length here but the search function wasn't doing it. Once you get past a certain level Falcons are very good at DIing Fthrow to ledge either directly or with a slide off. Because the di they use to do this is often similar to the di that makes dthrow tech chasing difficult, what can I do about hitting that crucial extension in this position? Is it just a "git gud and hit the d throw techchase" moment? or is there some other way I can bandaid the situation? When they actually go off the stage or tech near ledge it's obviously money but fewer and fewer Falcons tech roll to ledge as skill level increases, or at least that's what I find.

Also, I did some lab work on the full hop rising fair vs ICs and I found it starts beating CC/leading to worthwhile dividends at 40 percent almost exactly, and works well on any stage except maybe FD, although I can't comment for sure in regards to Pokemon/FD. It works well primarily after SHHFL fair on shield or after fair->dtilt/jab. Just something you and others may want to store in the memory banks for later.

Yeah I'd say hitting the Dthrow tech chase is what I go for in those situations. There may be some where neither work so I may occasionally opt for Uthrow shenanigans if I feel like it, or just not grab at all and go for a hit or force Falcon to be cornered more or grab release instead.

And good to know about Fair.

 

[KBK Kingkiller]

Something that helps me a lot is seeing players continue to play worse at a specific point and continue on for a few seconds/extended period such as games or stocks. Really I'm not sure of a good way to recommend this without saying learn the game more deeply to see them clearly messing up, but I will suggest this: if you see something and you're not sure, keep all theories open. Keep looking at before and after moments and build from there. If you never figure it out, that's fine. You can and should learn from all levels to avoid this type of thing being consistent anyway. The most important thing is to deepen your game understanding, and the psychology will follow.


Yeah I'd say hitting the Dthrow tech chase is what I go for in those situations. There may be some where neither work so I may occasionally opt for Uthrow shenanigans if I feel like it, or just not grab at all and go for a hit or force Falcon to be cornered more or grab release instead.

And good to know about Fair.

Just so you know, Marth can never catch Falcon's DI down and away tech away off dthrow without committing to a read unless he throws into a corner. You might be able to get some sort of DI mixups into reaction tech chases in some positions but that seems way too situational.

 

[Kotastic]

Hello PP, I want to discuss some options I'd like to develop vs. Sheik.

Sheik has been one of my worse matchups as of late, getting grabbed and whiff punished far too many times. I think I'm doing something really wrong. This one Sheik I played against was basically abusing me every time I shielded, mixing up between grabbing, poking moves, WD back, etc. I hate shielding vs. her. I found that whenever I d-tilted or aerial, he would be riiiight outside the range to whiff punish it by DA or grab. I would notice it and overshoot a bit, but he would respond against that with f-tilt, once again rewarding the Sheik with another fat punish. That's where I kinda got lost in what I could reliably do. My juggle game is decent, but that can't carry me if I can't win much neutral interactions.

I've been discussing and formulating options I can do vs. Sheik with other people. Instead of overshooting, I'm thinking of just throwing out shallow moves so I can bait Sheik to whiff punish and punish her for it. While I'm throwing out shallow moves, sometimes I will mix-up with poking with a WD d-tilt if she's grounded. I'm not too sure what can reliably poke in the air if she's jumping. WD forward rising fade-back fair perhaps? In other cases if I have a read, I can commit with f-smash/fair/CC.

In between all of this, I'm not sure how movement fits into all of this. I've seen you advocate that Marth's ground game is, well, amazing. I think I remember you stated in the past that all you've learned with Marth is best culminated vs. Sheik and Marth since they're both so ground-based. I'd like to explore more upon that. I could think how the Sheik might respond to my dash forward and how it can give me information based on my shallow moves. Then perhaps I can commit if she responds to it in a predictable fashion based on prior conditioning and pressure. There's probably dozens of different answers, and only just now I'm thinking about it more deeply. I'd love to hear your inputs as I continue work on my struggling matchup.