Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

I like Uthrow a lot against Sheik and if you can be a little more frame tight than her you can get more followups. But you can also hedge your bets with SH Uair/Fair and then FF FH after her or DJ after her and aerial her if she DJs. Or just wait and then chase her out of Uthrow since she's floaty and you can DD grab or Utilt or shield grab her if she tries to just fall into you. Really it's about figuring out a good system based on your and your opponents' frame tightness and stage awareness, etc.

 

[ridemyboat]

submitted 14 minutes ago by cagliostro9

I finally finished testing marth dash grab vs puff crouch. The short version is you can grab her in every frame of her crouch animation. Details: The best way to space it is so your sword looks like you're pointing it slightly past one of her ears. This is because the nadir of the lowest grab box is right behind your sword more or less. I didn't test whether the middle grab box could grab all of the frames of squatwait2, but it definitely can for squatwait1, squat, and squatrv. Squat is the initial crouching animation. It lasts 7 frames. Squatwait1 is the normal idle crouching animation. It lasts 40 frames. Squatwait2 is the other idle crouching animation. It lasts 64 frames. Squatrv is the standing up from crouch animation. It lasts 10 frames long. How do squatwait1 and squatwait2 get chosen? Squatwait1 will always be the first idle squat animation after initial squat. Puff will always go into squatwait1 after squatwait2. Aside from that, it's random. So I did a little testing (200 trials), and found that 44 out of the 200 attempts resulted in squatwait2. Thus, squatwait2 probably has approximately a 20% chance of occurring after squatwait1. Squatwait2 has been colloquially referred to as the "wiggle" because puff seems to kind of turn her head. Let me know if you guys want gifs or something of anything related to this.

Interesting post from reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/7bqpfn/marth_can_grab_puff_in_every_frame_of_her/

This seems to be true. So based on these assumptions:

a1. You can always grab crouching or jumping puff with the back grab bubble.
a2. You can never grab puff in her regular landing animation.

And these facts:

f1. Before L cancelling, Puff's bair is 20 lag frames, dair is 30, fair is 20, upair is 20, nair is 20
f2. Puff cancels her landing animation if she crouches.
f3. Puff's l cancel animation is very tall. You can even jc grab it
f4. You can't always grab puff with the front dash grab bubble.

Some thoughts from the above:

f2 means that you can threaten Puff with a back grab if she tends to crouch after landing. a2 means you have to delay your grabs for AC aerials. They have a long window to work with, if they mix up when they crouch then they are harder to grab. From f2 their window is short if they hold down after landing.

a1, f1, and f3 means that Puff has a more difficult time avoiding a grab after an l cancelled aerial, since crouch won't help. But Puff can play a mixup game here by delaying a spot dodge to handle your dash grab. Pay attention to whether your Puff spot dodges after l cancelled aerials sometimes, they might be playing around this.

f1 and f3 mean it's safe to go for crouch cancel grab after its crouch cancellable aerials, so long as you are well spaced. You are playing with fire if you miss the 3 frame window on their latest aerials. If you're slightly late and they are abusing crouch, you can do a cc into dash grab, but it's not recommended if they spot dodge. If they spot dodge though it adds safety to your jc grab.

The back grab box is basically your back leg. You'll have to space close to Puff to land it. You'd have to start your dash grab about where you can land a tipper dair on Puff if you were to fall with no drift, except just a little bit closer.

I haven't been able to invalidate any of the assumptions after a good twenty minutes of testing. I'm tempted to relabel them as facts. Are there any exceptions for a1 and a2? I suspect there are exceptions on yoshi's slants and PS transformations, but lets start with them both being level.

Edit: More thoughts on this, with boost grab you're looking at about 14 before the grab comes out. If you were already dashing in the right place it's only 10. Marth puts himself pretty far forward, so if they're doing late aerial's you will probably be hit in the jaw. There are mixups there too though.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2zsudq/boost_grab_stats/

 

[ridemyboat]

OK, here's an exception. Puff's landingfallspecial animation doesn't appear to be grabbable on frames 6, 9 or 12. 6, 9 and 12 are 3 contiguous frames (the frame counter goes up by 3s). That means that Puff has a 2 frame window to airdodge underneath dash grab, since Marth's grab is out for 2 frames and she'll be grabbed on 3 or 15. Also, dodging Marth's back grab should be considered to have 7 frames of startup on wavedash down. Frames 0, 1, 2, 3 and 4 are in Jump, and 0, 3 of LandingFallSpecial. She should be considered to have 5, possibly 6 frames of startup if she picks other directions like wavedash in or away.

Wavedash through you or away means Puff doesn't have to care about the 2 frame timing because it's easy to dodge this back grab box. Marth's front grab box is just not a threat at all to Puffs wavedash. If Puff expects you to dash grab, all she has to do is wavedash back, or wavedash forward to get behind you and avoid it completely.

Edit: For what it's worth, she can also dash through you. Spacing dependent. I don't think this changes any of the rules above so far, but it does mean don't try to grab crouching Puff if they're open to wavedashing out of crouch.

 

[cagliostro9]

Would you mind talking about landingfallspecial in simpler frame notation? just 1-10 would make it a lot easier to follow I think.

 

[ridemyboat]

Would you mind talking about landingfallspecial in simpler frame notation? just 1-10 would make it a lot easier to follow I think.

Yes. Just to clarify, I'm saying you can't grab puff on the third, fourth or fifth frames of landingfallspecial.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've known about the Puff jumping/landing animation dodging grab which is why I've always been leery of dash grabbing her, but I'm gonna dissect your post more and come back to this later on. Thanks for writing it out man.

 

[Kotastic]

I have an arcadian coming up in a couple days. It would mean a lot to me if I were to place highly in that tournament.

While I am making a lot of preparations, what else can I do to help prep mentally? I know you said that I can train my mind daily to help bring out my peak performance play and respecting my opponents. Are there other things I should know and keep in mind in the future?

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you're training your mind then you will be alright. It's just the quality of your training that matters. If you think of your goals and feel them pull you toward excitement instead of feeling like you're forcing yourself to do work that's a good sign. Taking care of your body helps you stay harmonized and energetic, and meditation helps you stay loose so you don't tense up too much and can focus.

 

[ridemyboat]

I've known about the Puff jumping/landing animation dodging grab which is why I've always been leery of dash grabbing her, but I'm gonna dissect your post more and come back to this later on. Thanks for writing it out man.

Hopefully it helps a little bit, I want to experiment with Puff some more since Marth beats fox 60 40.

Few more experiments today

1. It looks extremely good to crouch cancel grab Puff's late fair. This is pretty useful if Puff shields and tries to fair out of shield towards your downtilt.
2. I watched some of the Pewpewu vs Puff videos on youtube, and noticed some of his choices in recovery. He tends to use a double-jump back a lot and hit Puff with up b.
3. I found a bad option that most Marth's are doing, specifically when they try to recover vs Puff's fsmash or fthrow at mid percents. They'll try to do side b into double jump to grab ledge a lot. They do it because they are worried about jumping straight into a backair. Marths need to accept its not a good position and go for an immediate double jump. If they try to grab ledge you can downair them. You don't have to land on the stage to recover all the time after the dair. If Puff is at high percents your up b is more of a threat to them grabbing ledge, so you can stall their invincibility and hit their fair. Pewpewu seems to do that really well. So usually the recovery mixups should be immediate dj to ledge, immediate dj to dair to cover them grabbing ledge, and if puff is at high enough percent to be knocked away, fall down without using side b and hit her with up b and use jump to wait out her intangibility.
3a. Side b after getting fsmashed or fthrow at mid percent seems to never work. Especially on battlefield it doesn't seem to be worth using.

 

[Dr Peepee]

1. what do you mean? does this include her rising into you then fading away? is this including ASDI down?

3. don't really understand how you can Dair puff but if you give me a visual I'd get it.

 

[ridemyboat]

1. All bets are off on fade away. If she fades full away you can't even hit her with dtilt. You have to asdi down to get the grab.

The situation I'm thinking about is where Puff is just outside tipper dtilt range, and does a sh fair just over your dtilt. She can usually cc your weak dtilt, so if you dtilt again you get rested. She won't be able to AC her fair, so she'll do the fat l cancel animation and you can grab her.

It doesn't work on her weak fair until you're above like 8% though, because before that you can't asdi down.

3. https://youtu.be/80QHoWe2xQY?t=8m57s

I'm pretty sure in this situation that Marth can do an immediate doublejump into dair before puff grab's ledge. He might have to be at lower percent, like 50 to 70 though. If you do the immediate side b then you have fewer options. This is the general situation though. I know for sure you can dair if puff full hops instead of short hops.

Edit: This discussion on momentum from side b is part of why I'm saying not to do this immediate side b: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zVGo3fMbhg

 

[Dr Peepee]

1. got it

2. you're saying if m2k didn't side B early he could spike? maybe, but i think hbox would just bair then so I feel like going low is just better

 

[ridemyboat]

1. got it

2. you're saying if m2k didn't side B early he could spike? maybe, but i think hbox would just bair then so I feel like going low is just better

Going low is definitely better, but I don't think using side b first ever makes sense in that situation, because it gives puff more time to grab ledge and also if you do the side b you don't have double jump to the stage as an option. If you double jump first you can usually make it onto the stage. You can use an aerial, a side b, or air dodge. If you do side b first you can only make it to the ledge if you use your double jump.

M2K might have been able to spike, but it would have probably been best to go low, stall with double jump and then up b. If puff were at low percent I don't think thats an option usually because I think puff can get hit and still grab ledge first.

I think Marth should prioritize mixing up drift / up b timing when Puff is at mid percent, and that the side b hurts mixing up drift and is reactable enough to not help with mixing up timing.

 

[Kopaka]

I have an arcadian coming up in a couple days. It would mean a lot to me if I were to place highly in that tournament.

While I am making a lot of preparations, what else can I do to help prep mentally? I know you said that I can train my mind daily to help bring out my peak performance play and respecting my opponents. Are there other things I should know and keep in mind in the future?

gj making it to top 8 (I think?)

 

[UnderTheKnife]

Hey all,

I went to my first out of region tournament this weekend and it was a wonderful experience! It made me realize just how deep this game is and how many levels there are, the best players present looked like they were playing an entirely different game.

After spending time thinking about what separates players on that level and where I'm at, I noticed that their punish games are much much better than mine. They were great at either killing their opponents off of neutral openings, or, after getting the opening, ensuring that when the punish ended, it ended at their advantage, never really resetting to "true" neutral. In some cases, after establishing a lead, it looked like their opponents never really got to play, and if they did, they were generally at a disadvantage.

My question is: how do I develop that aspect of my game? I've thought a ton about neutral and I think that it's sufficient, but I haven't paid too much attention to punish game. Is there a specific way to practice that or is it just a matter of comboing 20XX bots (something I've definitely spent time doing)? The players I encountered seemed to have good "punish fundamentals", if that makes sense, as it looked like no matter which character they were using and facing, their punishes remained strong. I would like that ability too, so guidance on getting there would be super appreciated. Thanks all!

 

[Dr Peepee]

For punish, which I honestly recommend pretty much everyone reading this to focus on instead of neutral as it gives better returns, you start with the first confirm out of neutral. This means your neutral must be structured in a way that gives good follows. So for Marth you usually want a grab against good characters or to Fair/Uair them out of the air. For grabs, you want to work on starting positions, percents, which way you're facing, and what stage you're on as some good variables. That's a lot, so if you want just go with percent and stage as those are the biggest two. For grab, you want to mess with slight and full and no DI and observe your followups there. Videos can help with this, but your own testing works just fine and can help ingrain your knowledge more. You'll usually find groups of percents where you get similar outcomes, so you don't have to stress over every individual percent but the more thorough you are the more prepared you can be. Then of course past the initial interaction out of the grab you'd want to look for the next set of outcomes if you hit them or successfully tech chase them. Think of it like building a punish tree. It expands out and winds along and some branches are longer than others. That's pretty much how you'll have to be thinking of punish. And you can do the same thing with Fair'ing someone out of the air, though I'd like to recommend getting more FF Fair at lower percent(or double Fair'ing out of SH) and being sure to tipper, while at mid/high percents you'd want weaker Fairs when possible.

Perhaps an easier way to go about this is to look at what's right in front of you. If you have recorded matches, you just look at where you got a grab or a hit and recreate the situation on your own or with a friend and look through the possibilities. Then you can keep going until you've gone through common situations for you. That will also help you determine how your normal playstyle sets you up for bigger or smaller punishes.

 

[Kotastic]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lBtfk_kkw2433s37i7UNzaSryoihU_QV_fOvf8qgZys/edit

Dunno if you guys saw this from reddit sometime earlier, but I finally gave this a deep read. I'd say reading this was worth it, though I have some questions in mind. Please correct any misunderstanding I have with this.

Llod brings up whiff punish and prediction confirmation (I'll call PC) as two different meanings, with whiff punish as being reactable to all possible options right outside the range and PC as priming to punish some specific moves accordingly. PC doesn't necessarily have to be all zoning I believe, as say in the Marth mirror, you predict the Marth dashing back so you just DA. He states that because the first layer of the neutral game is just pure randomness, PC and whiff punishing tends to beat that first, basic level of neutral game. Where exactly does feinting and TR fall into this sort of spectrum?

Then, he brings up what tends to beat whiff punish/PC are mixups (defined as pure RPS as you cannot react to said option), which is the "5th layer" of the neutral game noted in the guide that occurs at the top level of Melee. I'm particularly fascinated when he brings up an example:

"If my opponent (Marth) thinks that I (Peach) will dash attack right into Marth’s face, then he might dash back (the non-committal option) to Prediction-Confirmation. However, to force a Mixup, I decide to keep running towards him, to the point where he would no longer be able to react to my dash attack. Now, we’ve entered a Mixup situation, because we both need to pick an option that which the other cannot react. I can do an overextended dash attack to try to catch his dash back, or an overextended grab to catch his shield. Or (and here’s where things get real fun), I can pick a non-committal non-reactable Mixup option myself, such as wavedashing in place or pulling a turnip. This non-committal non-reactable Mixup option is the reason why Mixups > Prediction-Confirmation Whiff Punish spectrum. If we both commit to a non-committal option, guess who has stage control. ME! From this point on, the next neutral interaction will be in my favor, as by gaining stage control, I’ve increased the number of options that I can pick, and decreased the number of options that my opponent can pick."

This really makes me think about the endless possibilities that can occur once both players are aware of PC/Whiff punishing. It makes me realize that smart plays, defensive or offensive, forces many mixups. At what point do you want to commit? Is overshooting a mixup, or moreso a PC. Are baits technically a mixup?

I've also noticed that one of my struggles in the Sheik mu is that if they don't want to commit to DA/Boost Grab, I struggle because I just play the PC game too long. Once they catch on, they just stay in range of DA and threaten moves like AC fair or something to slowly choke away my options and leaving me feel completely controlled. They're forcing me a mixup whether I should dash back more or go out there and fair/f-smash. And there's no end to the potential possibilities once it gets to that level. Is top Melee really about understanding such mixup options, and using tools here and there to help predict what kind of mixups they will be going for?

This also reminds me when I got eliminated at 7th in my OC Arcadian. I lost to this Fox player because I did not fully understand the mixups when he feinted SH nair but opted to double jump towards platforms instead. However when I went to FD, it seems like I knew all the mixups in mind with no platforms to interfere. I knew that no Foxes ever want to get grabbed at low percent, so I predicted that Fox will likely either backdash, jump, or spotdodge. Based from our last game, he liked back dashing and jumping a lot, so I just went in and overshoot f-smashed which caught his back dash. Because I conditioned him to shield from my f-smash, the next time I dashed forward he shielded, in which I mixed up with grab. I almost managed to 4-stock him there. Looking back, I think one mixup he lacked was full hopping (maybe my mind is playing tricks on me, but I don't think f-smash covers the apex of FH), which I'm guessing he didn't feel safe to do without platforms. I think I can probably beat FH by dashing under the FH or catch it by uair/fair or simply taking center. Unfortunately on other stages, he took advantage of platforms and double jumping in which my f-smash has less effectiveness and just simply knew less mixups, so he solidly won over me. Are mu ratios determined by how favorable the mixups are in various positions and the amount of reward the character gets from winning said mixups?

There's so much in the game I never realized, and I'm excited with how much more I can discover here in melee. Would you say that you followed a similar "Golden Pathway" in your journey towards the top?

 

[Dr Peepee]

WP and PC would happen at any distance, and would involve feinting to set them up.

He chose an aggressive example because anything defensive doesn't really force much. It still brings mixups but they're more ambiguous. So aggression forces certain mixups while defensive play allows for others.

Yeah you could say it's a deeper form of your Sheik example. But here we go until we get stuck on deeper complexities usually or we get into a situation where there are many overlapping mixups in our heads from previous interactions and it's overwhelming.

MU ratios are determined by character traits and how those interact with themselves and their opponents' traits. So yes but it's important to remember where those mixups come from.

I followed a path sort of like this where I mapped out possible solutions to situations I liked to place opponents in and deepened my understanding of those positions as well as ones my opponents liked.

 

[Kotastic]

"Yeah you could say it's a deeper form of your Sheik example. But here we go until we get stuck on deeper complexities usually or we get into a situation where there are many overlapping mixups in our heads from previous interactions and it's overwhelming." Are you saying that I shouldn't overthink every mixup in the book and keep it simple based on what my opponent does?

Would you say if I play the PC/WP game for lower levels set up by feinting/recognizing TR to practice my prediction game (the 4th level of the neutral game noted by LloD) and recognizing mixups in various positions, preferably on my favor based on stage positioning, would be good footing for my path of improvement?

 

[quixotic]

Hey PP, I was wondering about uthrow dj uair vs sheik to catch her double jump. I've been finding that if sheik di's uthrow away and double jumps with drift away I can't really get any followups after.

Ex:
https://youtu.be/1ayxUVbSfRA?t=12m7s

Do you know of any counterplay for this situation?

 

[Dr Peepee]

"Yeah you could say it's a deeper form of your Sheik example. But here we go until we get stuck on deeper complexities usually or we get into a situation where there are many overlapping mixups in our heads from previous interactions and it's overwhelming." Are you saying that I shouldn't overthink every mixup in the book and keep it simple based on what my opponent does?

Would you say if I play the PC/WP game for lower levels set up by feinting/recognizing TR to practice my prediction game (the 4th level of the neutral game noted by LloD) and recognizing mixups in various positions, preferably on my favor based on stage positioning, would be good footing for my path of improvement?

That's a good takeaway although it wasn't exactly what I was implying lol.

Probably to your other question. An easy solution is to try it and see how it goes and adjust your approach if it's not strong enough.

Hey PP, I was wondering about uthrow dj uair vs sheik to catch her double jump. I've been finding that if sheik di's uthrow away and double jumps with drift away I can't really get any followups after.

Ex:
https://youtu.be/1ayxUVbSfRA?t=12m7s

Do you know of any counterplay for this situation?

Sheik getting to platforms more reliably is the main problem, but if you can avoid that then stuff like her airdodging or doing aerials such as Dair shouldn't be a big deal. This is especially true on FD/neutral PS.

 

[ridemyboat]

Dr. Peepee, in the typical case how many openings do you think Marth has to get against Puff before he can setup a kill?

I feel like in most cases below 50, Puff is safe if it di's away. And then after that if they di in on tipper fairs then they're safe, and that Marth's strong moves (fsmash, dsmash) don't reliably tipper since Puffs positioning and sdi when it gets hit are super important for Marth to follow up. If I were to guess, I'd say Puff could reliably last about 10-20 hits.

On the other hand, Marth seems to die much earlier. Two of Puffs moves (pound, backair) force Marth to mixup di between away and in, and there are tons of platform setups into miss tech where Puff immediately kills you.

When you mention that it's much easier to get results by focusing on the punish, I feel somewhat discouraged due to how much harder it seems to be for Marth vs how straightforward it is for Puff.

Even if it's a losing mu I don't want to abandon it just because it's boring and (I think) I have to work harder, but when you say Marth wrecks Puff it's just super hard for me to see sometimes.

Also, have you ever met Jaedong? Apparently he was in EG.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Puff can make good use of DI away, but you can mix Dthrow/Fthrow at low percent and punish hard that way. Also if you can land a tippered falling Fair at low percent you can get a lot of damage off of it. That can put Puff into Fthrow tipper kill at one or two exchanges. Dreamland would obviously take longer. If you aren't comboing/edgeguarding/juggling Puff well then those areas are where you need to put your focus.

Nope but we were both at MLG 2014 together which was cool. He seemed busy though.

 

[StarEmblem]

Any tips on the Marth x Sheik mu? I have a friend who plays Sheik and i have been struggling against him for a while now. Probably because I have no experience in the mu.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Don't rush, space Fair(doesn't have to be trying to hit them), Dtilt(same as Fair but more okay to try and hit), fight outside of walk Ftilt range when you discourage dash attack so you can punish some whiffs with grab/aerials/Fsmash, Uthrow and kill, practice edgeguards.

I'll probably write a long thing in here about Marth vs Sheik since it's such a common question and people on Reddit were asking me about it recently. Not sure exactly when though but hopefully soon.

 

[HolidayMaker]

Found this long one of you playing a bunch of Marth/Puff with Mahone circa 2015-2016. Worth studying (at least relative to other Marths) in your opinion? You sure do Fsmash a lot and I'm not sure how much is not taking it seriously and how much is trying to call out jumps. I've definitely learned a few things already regardless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DPR3b7z1ho

 

[Uma]

I'm back >.> life hit hard
Can't wait to start competing again

 

[DragonRogue]

lmao why do you exist

 

[Dr Peepee]

Found this long one of you playing a bunch of Marth/Puff with Mahone circa 2015-2016. Worth studying (at least relative to other Marths) in your opinion? You sure do Fsmash a lot and I'm not sure how much is not taking it seriously and how much is trying to call out jumps. I've definitely learned a few things already regardless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DPR3b7z1ho

Uhhhh maybe. I look like I've already lost a decent amount of focus there but you should be able to get some okay stuff from it still. I think Fsmash is good in the matchup tbh but not quite the way I did it lol.

 

[HolidayMaker]

In particular, can I ask you what you think about dash attack in the MU? You seem to use it pretty often at lower percents vs crouching puff. Tipper dash attack seems to be a pretty juicy launcher at those percents and also encourages her to get airborne which is obviously good for Marth.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dash attack is obviously risky as you can get crouch jump rested or Fsmashed out of it, but Puff is more likely to shield or jump/WD if you get near her. Getting grabbed isn't so bad compared to the reward, and if she crouches she might not react as this isn't a common option. She usually jumps though or if I'm lucky it's a percent where DA breaks ASDI down and knocks down even if she WDs so it can be safer than expected. It's probably not worth using as much as I do it but since it's uncommon it's easier to use right now.

 

[Sylarius]

SGenerally those were all good grabs to go for but they were also achieved for various reasons such as the meta being run in Dtilt for Fox. The Mango grab was way too early though obviously, and the Lucky grabs should've been earlier/I should've used WD/aerials to reset and establish my space first. If you're not sure, then try to gain information if possible. Move in then back, zone a little, etc. Grab is great in a risk reward sense if you're not overly predictable though.

I think usually you need some level of confidence in grab for it to work, but I will admit sometimes just throwing it out moving forward is great at catching people poking at me or starting to come in before their move has started. That can keep people in check even if it fails so it's still useful I think.

Hopefully I got most questions answered there lol.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this and so much else honestly...

A lot of Marth ditto "advice" I've seen online talks too much about holding down and "whoever jumps first loses", but to me this feels like a huge simplification and I think jumping is hardly bad at all. Clearly there can be a lot of consistency in the Marth ditto (as shown by you vs PPU and M2K, and PPU/Moon vs Zain and Rishi). Could you explain a bit of my understanding/reasoning a bit more? I usually default for undershoot and regular dtilt to fight back when Marths get too close to me or I want to take some stage back, but I feel like often swinging like that, even when I hit, can be inferior to things like overshot dtilt which can corner much better. How do you deal with a Marth that avoids uthrow followsup by using strong side b? Do I just have to wait it out or predict it? Also, how do you deal with using fsmash (when going for a kill/outspacing nair by the other person?) and raw grab? Should grab be primarily for when the other person is shielding or has been conditioned to shield? Is it something you would use less at higher %s?

I go for nair sometimes when we're both at 0% trying to beat dtilt, but I usually get nothing off of it due to them crouching even if I hit it. Then I started going for raw grab in neutral knowing dtilt and nair won't really give anything, and often I missed or wouldn't get anything after uthrow. What's your opinion on fthrow vs uthrow at the ledge? My uthrow combos have really been weaker since the other player started using strong side B after my uthrow.

How can you fight back better with different placement of moves/better reward potential even on small stages like Yoshi's and Fountain, when the other player is at low %s? Overshot dtilt, cornering, and better dash dance grab or aerial punishing?


I'm still having Falco problems but a lot of it seems to be me lacking punishes, and I felt like I super needed to make every hit count in that matchup compared to others to win and that my anti-laser game wasn't so great. Even watching PPU Mango I still find it crazy he manages to always bring it g5. And Zain recently bopped Westballz so I'll try to study that for some ideas...

This is a little personal but nowadays it seems like you spend a lot of time with reflection and mental training (you've cited books like inner game of tennis and the art of learning - I bought the second one and am partway into it and already read the first), and that you practice meditation... also that you seem like you are much more expressive and eloquent now than in older videos of you I see from 2014 and earlier. I didn't know you then but iyo, did that happen and did you want that to happen/work towards it? Or was it all pretty natural? I've been studying books/taking notes about body language and similar psychology stuff, because friends say I'm a little quirky and lack a tiny bit of social awareness.

How do you feel about being able to set priorities and goals? Even unrelated to smash would be great. I hope this makes sense. Sorry for asking so many questions. ^^; I feel pretty decent about where I am in life right now but I have a lot of ambition and wants and any advice on how to direct it would be great!

 

[ridemyboat]

Puff can make good use of DI away, but you can mix Dthrow/Fthrow at low percent and punish hard that way. Also if you can land a tippered falling Fair at low percent you can get a lot of damage off of it. That can put Puff into Fthrow tipper kill at one or two exchanges. Dreamland would obviously take longer. If you aren't comboing/edgeguarding/juggling Puff well then those areas are where you need to put your focus.

Nope but we were both at MLG 2014 together which was cool. He seemed busy though.

I see. I hate this matchup so much lol.

Jaedong is a true hero, I heard he's doing military service now.

I made some more rules, this time around when puff will land around a DL64 platform distance away from you and is facing away.

Marths full hop goes above a DL64 platform, Puffs full hop doesn't even land on a YS platform. If both characters full hop at the same time, Puff cannot bair Marth. Marth has faster vertical speed, and slower horizontal air speed, but a faster dash.

Marth can abuse his better jumpsquat and faster aerials by dashing forward, full hopping and tippering a fair to catch Puff as she jumps. The full hop can't be directly punished by Puff if Marth is able to land on a top platform, unless Puff jumps before Marth, moves outside of fair range, and then weaves back in with a bair after the fair hitbox is inactive.

Marth's SH fair is riskier. Marth doesn't want to start his fair until at least the 4th frame in the air. Fair started on the 5th frame trades with the earliest bair, and afterwards gets beaten by the earliest bair. Even the earliest fair can be punished by waiting for the fair and then Puff can do dash attack, maybe a boost grab, definitely a bair. Early fairs are somewhat nice because they can hit Puff if it doesn't crouch. But the later fairs, like frame 10, are harder for Puff to punish afterwards, and don't give up nearly as much space when you're trying to add safety. You can add a little bit of safety by starting your jump with no initial velocity and drifting backwards, or by jumping with initial velocity backwards and drifting back, but since Puff is faster I think it's likely best to start with no drift and delay the aerial and then drift back. The latest early fair that will hit Puff standing still is the 6th frame of the SH.

Puff makes a noticeable sound on frame 6 of forward smash, frame 1 of all its other smash attacks, and frame 12 of pound. Depending on how you are positioned, you can often react to that sound with a downsmash or forward smash. This can be a lot of fun if Puff responds to CC'ing a dtilt or something with a forward smash. If you didn't tipper your downtilt, you can try wavedashing back into a dsmash. Since its forward smash moves it so far forward and it sticks its leg out, it's surprisingly easy to tipper.

Edit: Realized the SH fair comment isn't quite true, because I didn't mention frame 7 of Marth's fair, which is the very end of the active hitbox. You can actually delay the fair even more if you drift forward. The above discussion is talking about spacing for frame 5 or 6. Frame 7 hits lower.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this and so much else honestly...

A lot of Marth ditto "advice" I've seen online talks too much about holding down and "whoever jumps first loses", but to me this feels like a huge simplification and I think jumping is hardly bad at all. Clearly there can be a lot of consistency in the Marth ditto (as shown by you vs PPU and M2K, and PPU/Moon vs Zain and Rishi). Could you explain a bit of my understanding/reasoning a bit more? I usually default for undershoot and regular dtilt to fight back when Marths get too close to me or I want to take some stage back, but I feel like often swinging like that, even when I hit, can be inferior to things like overshot dtilt which can corner much better. How do you deal with a Marth that avoids uthrow followsup by using strong side b? Do I just have to wait it out or predict it? Also, how do you deal with using fsmash (when going for a kill/outspacing nair by the other person?) and raw grab? Should grab be primarily for when the other person is shielding or has been conditioned to shield? Is it something you would use less at higher %s?

I go for nair sometimes when we're both at 0% trying to beat dtilt, but I usually get nothing off of it due to them crouching even if I hit it. Then I started going for raw grab in neutral knowing dtilt and nair won't really give anything, and often I missed or wouldn't get anything after uthrow. What's your opinion on fthrow vs uthrow at the ledge? My uthrow combos have really been weaker since the other player started using strong side B after my uthrow.

How can you fight back better with different placement of moves/better reward potential even on small stages like Yoshi's and Fountain, when the other player is at low %s? Overshot dtilt, cornering, and better dash dance grab or aerial punishing?


I'm still having Falco problems but a lot of it seems to be me lacking punishes, and I felt like I super needed to make every hit count in that matchup compared to others to win and that my anti-laser game wasn't so great. Even watching PPU Mango I still find it crazy he manages to always bring it g5. And Zain recently bopped Westballz so I'll try to study that for some ideas...

This is a little personal but nowadays it seems like you spend a lot of time with reflection and mental training (you've cited books like inner game of tennis and the art of learning - I bought the second one and am partway into it and already read the first), and that you practice meditation... also that you seem like you are much more expressive and eloquent now than in older videos of you I see from 2014 and earlier. I didn't know you then but iyo, did that happen and did you want that to happen/work towards it? Or was it all pretty natural? I've been studying books/taking notes about body language and similar psychology stuff, because friends say I'm a little quirky and lack a tiny bit of social awareness.

How do you feel about being able to set priorities and goals? Even unrelated to smash would be great. I hope this makes sense. Sorry for asking so many questions. ^^; I feel pretty decent about where I am in life right now but I have a lot of ambition and wants and any advice on how to direct it would be great!

Jumping is not bad because you can jump over Dtilt or use it to wall the other Marth out. But I generally advise against jumping because of the other Marth reacting with Fair or even Fsmash.

I don't know what Uthrow percents you're talking about. Sometimes waiting is okay because they're high up and you can react, and other times at low percents you might have to guess a little more.

I like Fsmash more when the other Marth wants to Dtilt in place or I call their jump and especially when they're cornered since they really can't deal with it then. Raw grab is more for grabbing their run in and dash away to me as well as the occasional Dtilt lag.

Grab I don't like as much at higher percents because I can't get as good of a punish, but if I can get a decent edgeguard out of grab I'll still throw them offstage.

Fthrow vs Uthrow at the edge is still good, but vs Marth in particular if they guess right on Uthrow they get to live which is not a great situation lol.

Fsmash is better on small stages lol, but so is swinging generally. They can't avoid your sword so much then. It also helps to minimize movement even further on YS/FoD because you don't have much room to move back at all times.

Hmm yes I did change a great deal as a person and player over the course of 2014 especially. I had some explicit things I wanted to do and feelings/general impressions I wanted to send to others, but the majority of it was internal work that I felt was absolutely essential to become the type of person I needed to be to better myself and be more connected with myself and others. If you are interested, you may find the book "Unlimited Power"(related documentary on Netflix "I am Not Your Guru") useful, as well as one called "The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem(related book the Psychology of Romantic Love.) Those works were quite helpful in getting me to address blocked emotions and thoughts and to decide who I wanted to be.

Goals are awesome, but make sure they are well-defined, reasonably timed, and you check your progress along the way. Also that the goals are very important to you. Many people know they're useful but don't fully engage themselves with them which causes frustration or disenchantment later.

I see. I hate this matchup so much lol.

Jaedong is a true hero, I heard he's doing military service now.

I made some more rules, this time around when puff will land around a DL64 platform distance away from you and is facing away.

Marths full hop goes above a DL64 platform, Puffs full hop doesn't even land on a YS platform. If both characters full hop at the same time, Puff cannot bair Marth. Marth has faster vertical speed, and slower horizontal air speed, but a faster dash.

Marth can abuse his better jumpsquat and faster aerials by dashing forward, full hopping and tippering a fair to catch Puff as she jumps. The full hop can't be directly punished by Puff if Marth is able to land on a top platform, unless Puff jumps before Marth, moves outside of fair range, and then weaves back in with a bair after the fair hitbox is inactive.

Marth's SH fair is riskier. Marth doesn't want to start his fair until at least the 4th frame in the air. Fair started on the 5th frame trades with the earliest bair, and afterwards gets beaten by the earliest bair. Even the earliest fair can be punished by waiting for the fair and then Puff can do dash attack, maybe a boost grab, definitely a bair. Early fairs are somewhat nice because they can hit Puff if it doesn't crouch. But the later fairs, like frame 10, are harder for Puff to punish afterwards, and don't give up nearly as much space when you're trying to add safety. You can add a little bit of safety by starting your jump with no initial velocity and drifting backwards, or by jumping with initial velocity backwards and drifting back, but since Puff is faster I think it's likely best to start with no drift and delay the aerial and then drift back. The latest early fair that will hit Puff standing still is the 6th frame of the SH.

Puff makes a noticeable sound on frame 6 of forward smash, frame 1 of all its other smash attacks, and frame 12 of pound. Depending on how you are positioned, you can often react to that sound with a downsmash or forward smash. This can be a lot of fun if Puff responds to CC'ing a dtilt or something with a forward smash. If you didn't tipper your downtilt, you can try wavedashing back into a dsmash. Since its forward smash moves it so far forward and it sticks its leg out, it's surprisingly easy to tipper.

Yeah I don't like Fair so much against Puff unless I'm trying to use it to catch her jumping or shield pressure her simultaneously. It's not a bad option though.

 

[Mahone]

Oh man, i come back to smashboards after like 2 years to see whats up and people are analyzing me getting whooped in my favorite mu

I think fsmash is really underrated in neutral vs puff. If the puff doesnt have a lot of marth experience it can be hard to space around and it just complicates the spacing in general. It's much easier to position against a marth who never fsmashes or ftilts

 

[Zorcey]

Really recognizing the importance of writing when organizing my thoughts about the game (after all, can’t really claim I understand something when I can’t articulate anything). As part of that, I want to get back into writing reflections on the game and my improvement and experiences in the community. I figure I’ll just post some of these here on the Marth Boards when they’re particularly impactful to me, to get feedback from PP or any of the other regulars who take the time to respond (<3). It’s also just easier to get my thoughts rolling when I feel like I’m conveying information to someone else rather than just myself.

Anyway. Last night I attended my first real local tournament, which was a big deal to me coming from a place without much of a Smash scene at all (that was accessible to me, at least). The catch here was that it was a Smash 4 tournament. I only attended because they advertised friendlies setups for Melee, so I thought I would just chill and play in the background. But after playing about 6-7 people in a few sets, I realized trying to find good Melee opponents at a Smash 4 tourney was kind of dumb lol. After that, I entered the Smash 4 bracket on a whim.

Clearly I’m not used to tournament play, so I actually saw this as a really good opportunity for me - I don’t play Smash 4 competitively, so I figured it would be much easier for me to not stress over executional things like if I had entered a Melee bracket. I could keep my attention almost entirely on my mentality and focus.

Honestly I played pretty bad and shaky because of nerves and high standards for myself - it wasn’t my game, but I still would have felt terrible placing poorly. I also continually noticed myself tuning in to other things going on in the room instead of the game, and I had to bring myself back in. I need to work on this stuff to varying extents, but all things considered, I’m happy with my mental performance? See, I’ve been working on stuff like this in private for months now, and I just saw so much progress come to fruition - if I had been in a similar situation a year ago, only about 6 months after starting Melee, I would have tilted really, really hard, and probably have not been able to regain my focus at all. There’s still a lot of work to be done, but I’m doing it - I really am improving my mentality. The thing I was proudest of myself for was being able to smile and laugh it off when I made a stupid mistake or my opponent did something stylish on me or gimped me (first got that from PP).

In the end I placed 3rd out of 24 entrants, getting double-eliminated by 1st place. I feel like I definitely could have won with a little time invested into the game (both sets I lost were 1-2), but I’m not going to do that lol. I definitely feel like my fundamental knowledge of “Smash” through my study of fundamentals in Melee is what carried me that far into the bracket. I was disappointed at the placing when winning was so in reach, but my takeaway from the experience was that the path I’m on is a good one, and long-term that’s the most satisfying reassurance I could ask for.

I need more clarity (if I just understood a few key situations that kept occurring I would have had it). I need to work hard and keep increasing my understanding of more and more situations, working from most common to least common, until everything makes sense. I’m just so pleased that I can “see” these games now at a high level, even if I’m not ready to play that way yet. It’s been hard to be good about consistent study of Melee in the midst of the school semester, but with winter break coming up in a few weeks I’m so excited to bootcamp. Until then I need some small daily goals.

The experience of like, going, for me was really cool overall too. I have anxiety problems, so getting out there was hard, but when I got there it was a lot of fun. There were about 30 people total in the venue, and I honestly didn’t meet one person who wasn’t friendly towards me despite being new. Unfortunately I probably won’t go back since I need to focus on my own game, but the Smash community is great.

Such a long post lol. Thanks to anyone who took the time to read this.

 

[frapple_apple]

Hey again, PP! I've been making a lot of improvements these last few weeks, but I found my self struggling against a Peach last tournament I went to. My punish game was solid, but I really struggled getting around turnips in neutral. I found myself running into his turnips over and over like a moth at a window. Every time, he knew if I shielded the turnip, he could grab, and if I tried to jump over it, he could stuff me out with a Nair or just wait for me to land with fair and CC downsmash me. Any advice on how to get around Peach's wall?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Shine turnips back, jump(FH) over the turnips(land on platforms and she won't be able to Fair you usually), run under them, and if you have to shield then either roll early(or buffer) and then change it up from there. Also be sure to shield DI away when she goes into your shield when you can.

 

[Mejonat]

I'm having trouble deciding whether it's better to go in on ganon in neutral sometimes or to just dash dance around him forever. I feel like never approaching lets ganon set up his little waveland mixup game and he gets to dictate the pace of the game completely, and I don't like that. I've seen some marths use Nair to cross up ganon's shield and try to bait a bad oos option, but is that ever possible to do without risk, and is it even worth it? Should I just focus on my punishes instead of worrying about Neutral so that I can kill him off of 1 or 2 openings like he can do to me?

I guess another way of wording it is, how can I make ganon's life super hard?
Edit: harder than it already is sorry ganon mains

 

[gcboy]

https://youtu.be/QCnjGb0B4jw

Any tips? Noob trying to learn and this is the first time I've ever been recorded thanksthanks