Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[RedmanSSBM]

Okay so I just got back from a 2 hour practice session with a Peach main that lives rather close to me and I feel like I'm coming away from the session learning more about how to play the matchup. Early on I was realizing that I was getting too greedy trying to hit Peach all of the time and trying to directly challenge her moves, resulting in me being sent off stage usually. I kept trying to approach with fair, nair, or dash attack to beat her float -> fair, dash attack, or nair and it never worked out. I got hit too much. It wasn't until the last 30 minutes or so of the session that I realized I should be trying to just take space with my fair and not always try to hit Peach. I found that I was landing more hits on her when she would try to commit to hitting me. I would dip in and out of her TR with dashes and then I would fair a space when I predicted that she would float, or get into her TR to force out a dash attack and then punish it with a grab. Once I took neutral in a more bait-centric play-style, I saw that I was getting a lot more hits, so I feel good about figuring out that part of the matchup that I struggled with.

I did notice that I'm still DIing her Dsmash not as well as I could be because I get caught in it when I am dashing back. But the more that I played the more I could tell when he was likely to dsmash. Also for a majority of the session I wasn't ever really comboing her. I was getting a lot of fair strings on her from f-throw later on and it's usually because he didn't DI down and away. I don't think I was really conditioning Peach to do that, but I got to see how powerful those fair strings on her were. She would DI my fthrows down and away and I never tried to dash attack it until way later. When she would tech away from me I saw that I couldn't quite get there in time to grab her if I was reacting to her tech, and she would dash attack me for coming in. In hindsight, I probably should have been baiting out that dash attack when she is cornered and get a grab from it.

Something I see M2K do a lot against Peach is he will dash attack almost by default after a lot of f-throws and then if the Peach techs behind, he gets a free grab. I didn't really try to go for this during the session but it's one of the things that I want to try to practice next time.

Overall I'm pretty happy with how much I learned during this session. I felt like 2 hours was just long enough to have something concrete learned and apply it in gameplay, but also not too long as to take up too much of my time.

 

[SunnySSBM]

I have a Fox training partner that is extremely aggressive against me during our Marth vs Fox practice sessions. So much so that the neutral mostly boils down to him either running shinning me for dashing back, or sh dairing me to punish my movement forward. My success in the matches against him mostly involve preemptive dash forward jc grabs reacting to his movement forward, as this directly counters his running shine and works frequently against his sh drills if I move when he does (he'll move into his threatening range before starting it, so if I close the space when he does I can snag him before he jumps). I win a good number of these exchanges as I can anticipate what's going to happen, but I can't discourage him from being as aggressive as he is. My thoughts are that I'm simply not punishing him hard enough. I allow my opponent to live longer than he should, as my chaingrab/platform punish sequences aren't very consistent (recently switched to Marth so I've got to put in the hours in and make sure Fox dies when I touch him).

My question to you, are my punishes the only thing that could be discouraging this level of aggression from my Fox opponent? If they are, what are some ways that I can manipulate the situation to be more proactive about what's occurring? Against other Fox players, I can find opportunities to use my forward dash observationally, and condition him around that. Other times, I can use my wavedash in downtilt as a means to discourage my opponent from dashing away from me, and later in the match use my wavedash observationally to punish things that could counter my downtilt. When I'm spamming dash jc grab, I feel as if I'm just mindlessly zoning my opponent and not learning anything from the practice sessions with my friend, but often times I feel it's all I can do against this style of play, as I don't have time to move observationally against him (or at least it feels that way, perhaps I'm reacting too slowly). Would you recommend working on my punishes more before evaluating my strategy against this type of Fox?

 

[L33thal]

What are some good ideas for a Marth to think about when working on developing a more aggressive neutral? When I was watching PPMD vs. Leffen at Apex 2015, I was really surprised at how strong PP threatened in neutral without the use of a lot of aerial/tilt hitboxes when both players were grounded. It felt like PP always placed himself in good, strong positions where he could threaten grabs (with very strong movement mixups) but also mix in defensive movement and defensive grabs for when Leffen would go in, which seems like it requires so much skill to do, especially at top-level. At one point, it felt like PP got Leffen so nervous/ansty that Leffen just kept spotdodging on techs which set up a lot of cross-up grabs. This made me think about the different ways Marth can threaten in neutral and what I usually do is stay in a somewhat predictable range and kind of "take turns" going in with my opponent (e.g. mixing up run-up grab, nair in-place, wavedash back, etc. at around tipper spacing).

 

[Dr Peepee]

I have a Fox training partner that is extremely aggressive against me during our Marth vs Fox practice sessions. So much so that the neutral mostly boils down to him either running shinning me for dashing back, or sh dairing me to punish my movement forward. My success in the matches against him mostly involve preemptive dash forward jc grabs reacting to his movement forward, as this directly counters his running shine and works frequently against his sh drills if I move when he does (he'll move into his threatening range before starting it, so if I close the space when he does I can snag him before he jumps). I win a good number of these exchanges as I can anticipate what's going to happen, but I can't discourage him from being as aggressive as he is. My thoughts are that I'm simply not punishing him hard enough. I allow my opponent to live longer than he should, as my chaingrab/platform punish sequences aren't very consistent (recently switched to Marth so I've got to put in the hours in and make sure Fox dies when I touch him).

My question to you, are my punishes the only thing that could be discouraging this level of aggression from my Fox opponent? If they are, what are some ways that I can manipulate the situation to be more proactive about what's occurring? Against other Fox players, I can find opportunities to use my forward dash observationally, and condition him around that. Other times, I can use my wavedash in downtilt as a means to discourage my opponent from dashing away from me, and later in the match use my wavedash observationally to punish things that could counter my downtilt. When I'm spamming dash jc grab, I feel as if I'm just mindlessly zoning my opponent and not learning anything from the practice sessions with my friend, but often times I feel it's all I can do against this style of play, as I don't have time to move observationally against him (or at least it feels that way, perhaps I'm reacting too slowly). Would you recommend working on my punishes more before evaluating my strategy against this type of Fox?

You can just Fair/Nair to beat both of these things btw =p though obviously grab has a greater reward and you can SDI drill

Yeah punish would be a huge deterrent but you also need to keep in mind if he wins doing it enough(and gets enough damage when he does win) he's not going to change. If you consistently beat his options he will change up much more. Keep in mind Marth often excels when he first controls his space and then pushes that control into the opponent. So don't look at this as a missed opportunity to learn, but instead one in which you can learn to establish your positioning/defense more and then play offense more like you want to. Changing your own style and learning other ways to play can benefit your core gameplan anyway.

What are some good ideas for a Marth to think about when working on developing a more aggressive neutral? When I was watching PPMD vs. Leffen at Apex 2015, I was really surprised at how strong PP threatened in neutral without the use of a lot of aerial/tilt hitboxes when both players were grounded. It felt like PP always placed himself in good, strong positions where he could threaten grabs (with very strong movement mixups) but also mix in defensive movement and defensive grabs for when Leffen would go in, which seems like it requires so much skill to do, especially at top-level. At one point, it felt like PP got Leffen so nervous/ansty that Leffen just kept spotdodging on techs which set up a lot of cross-up grabs. This made me think about the different ways Marth can threaten in neutral and what I usually do is stay in a somewhat predictable range and kind of "take turns" going in with my opponent (e.g. mixing up run-up grab, nair in-place, wavedash back, etc. at around tipper spacing).

Well Leffen kinda always spams spotdodge after techs and has said on Twitter he does this because it gets him out of grab position quickest of any option.

This is related to the above question I answered, but you need to first establish your own space and threats before you can push into the opponent often. However, you also need to be able to tie your aggressive threats to your movement well. If you show your opponent you have an approaching Dtilt and approaching Fair mixup, you can start playing with your opponent's responses based on how often you do either approach and what you did last time and so on. Essentially the answer is what I tell most people to do: examine your tools, practice, keep it simple.

 

[capusa27]

Hi Dr Peepee

So, I just finished playing against a Yoshi player. While I was struggling at first, I think I understand more about Yoshi in the eight games that I played against the character.

At first, I thought to simply dash dance and wave-dash camp around his every option and not commit to anything for about two games. To be fair, I wasn't thinking much about the advantageous ranges; it was more of a spray-and pray type of idea. After being punished a lot for mindlessly dash dancing and wave-dashing, I remembered that you said that zoning works better and used Marth's down-tilt. Once I started to combine dash-dancing and wave-dashing with tipper down-tilt timing mixups, it really seemed like Yoshi doesn't have a lot of useful options for dealing with this type of zoning.

Something that I thought was weird was that I was doing much better on Battlefield, Yoshi's, and FoD than compared to FD dealing with double jump cancel. I guess watching a lot of TAI videos were he would control the space between the platforms was easy for me to replicate on those stages. Compared to FD, I really only had to worry about down-tilt zoning. In addition to dealing with double jump, I thought that it was much easier to tech chase Yoshi on these small stages into edge-guard situations.

So Dr Peepee , I ignored your rules and failed, but I had more success 1) Jumping when they jumped (and attacking before I did), 2. Controlling space with sword and limited movement against most characters IC's and below, 3) playing at threatening range.

 

[maclo4]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUyQQ_ems

Just watching the first stock of this set (PPU vs westballz) it seems like ppu wins a few different trade by just committing to an up air or fair to cover falco coming down from above (specifically at ~13, 18, 20 and 22 seconds in). There are also a couple times where ppu puts out the hitbox and misses but doesnt get punished. What do you think westballz could be doing differently in the situation to punish that option?

Also somewhat related, but I know you always say as a general rule jump when they jump cause you win air to air, but if someone is on a platform (falco specifically im playing around with options against) I feel like the rule generally applies that marth wins most situations air to platform. I realize theres more mixups for someone on a platform than if they are actually in the air and every rules has exception, but just wondering if you think its okay to use the rule "jump when they jump" as also "jump when they are on platforms".

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi Dr Peepee

So, I just finished playing against a Yoshi player. While I was struggling at first, I think I understand more about Yoshi in the eight games that I played against the character.

At first, I thought to simply dash dance and wave-dash camp around his every option and not commit to anything for about two games. To be fair, I wasn't thinking much about the advantageous ranges; it was more of a spray-and pray type of idea. After being punished a lot for mindlessly dash dancing and wave-dashing, I remembered that you said that zoning works better and used Marth's down-tilt. Once I started to combine dash-dancing and wave-dashing with tipper down-tilt timing mixups, it really seemed like Yoshi doesn't have a lot of useful options for dealing with this type of zoning.

Something that I thought was weird was that I was doing much better on Battlefield, Yoshi's, and FoD than compared to FD dealing with double jump cancel. I guess watching a lot of TAI videos were he would control the space between the platforms was easy for me to replicate on those stages. Compared to FD, I really only had to worry about down-tilt zoning. In addition to dealing with double jump, I thought that it was much easier to tech chase Yoshi on these small stages into edge-guard situations.

So Dr Peepee , I ignored your rules and failed, but I had more success 1) Jumping when they jumped (and attacking before I did), 2. Controlling space with sword and limited movement against most characters IC's and below, 3) playing at threatening range.

Jumping when they jump is what I recommend, and having "limited" movement is more in my less is more way of thinking, and playing at threatening range is something I've been talking about in here for weeks. Not sure how it's unlike what I recommended, but I am glad you adjusted and did well in that weird matchup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUyQQ_ems

Just watching the first stock of this set (PPU vs westballz) it seems like ppu wins a few different trade by just committing to an up air or fair to cover falco coming down from above (specifically at ~13, 18, 20 and 22 seconds in). There are also a couple times where ppu puts out the hitbox and misses but doesnt get punished. What do you think westballz could be doing differently in the situation to punish that option?

Also somewhat related, but I know you always say as a general rule jump when they jump cause you win air to air, but if someone is on a platform (falco specifically im playing around with options against) I feel like the rule generally applies that marth wins most situations air to platform. I realize theres more mixups for someone on a platform than if they are actually in the air and every rules has exception, but just wondering if you think its okay to use the rule "jump when they jump" as also "jump when they are on platforms".

Are you sure you copied this link correctly? When I follow it I'm told the video isn't available.

 

[maclo4]

Jumping when they jump is what I recommend, and having "limited" movement is more in my less is more way of thinking, and playing at threatening range is something I've been talking about in here for weeks. Not sure how it's unlike what I recommended, but I am glad you adjusted and did well in that weird matchup.


Are you sure you copied this link correctly? When I follow it I'm told the video isn't available.

Whoops yea heres the real link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUyQQ_ems6c

 

[Dr Peepee]

Okay that's better lol. Yeah Dair you can't really beat with Uair but you can with Fair or DD grab and so PPU had all of that work out well for him. Basically if Wes did some drop down DJ back up/waveland or did some side platform instead of top platform fighting(BF top plat so high) OR he just stayed on the ground he'd have been better off imo. He could also have just moved less and shield drop Bair'd PPU aerial on him or used PPU going up to move down and get under him since that's bad for Marth. I still think platform Falco vs Marth is something that should very rarely happen though from Falco's end.

It's not as much you always want to jump when they're on platform, but you do want to threaten it when you can. Air to air you pretty much always want to jump, but air to platform they can still hold down and hit you back or shield drop like on the ground so it's not as straightforward as air to air. That said, Falco can't always do a whole lot about Marth spacing Fair/Bair on him so feel free to do that when you can. When Falco is low and sometimes mid percent you're just harassing him to get off the platform and not necessarily going for a big punish though, so don't forget that.

 

[maclo4]

Alright that makes sense. Except why do you say you cant beat dair with up air? It def outspaces falco dair if timed right

 

[Dr Peepee]

It my experience it seems like it trades more often than wins which isn't usually worth it iirc, but I'll go and revisit it to make sure I'm not being misleading, thanks.

 

[Socrates]

When falco is hassling you in shield with dair/nair > shine, is it wise to wait for the shine and then full hop out? Can't really think of anything better other than roll.

Also, when they realize you're waiting for shine they can mix it up with grab instead of shine. I can't seem to figure out a proper counter for that, other than maybe shield grab? But then it becomes a read at that point

 

[Dr Peepee]

Shield (S)DI away is really helpful here, but I haven't tested just how helpful yet. WD OOS vs buffer roll should give you enough variety if you shield DI a hit or two anyway(or if they space).

I'd much rather take a grab from Falco than a shine/aerial, but you could shield grab or mix in some earlier buff roll, and if he's spaced at all then shield DI back should let you get a shield grab. You can always just lightshield if you're not sure what's going to happen and get pushed far away(works best when you're close to edge and don't have a lot of options anyway....though I guess your FH idea could work to if you can get to a side platform quickly).

 

[Socrates]

Shield (S)DI away is really helpful here, but I haven't tested just how helpful yet. WD OOS vs buffer roll should give you enough variety if you shield DI a hit or two anyway(or if they space).

I'd much rather take a grab from Falco than a shine/aerial, but you could shield grab or mix in some earlier buff roll, and if he's spaced at all then shield DI back should let you get a shield grab. You can always just lightshield if you're not sure what's going to happen and get pushed far away(works best when you're close to edge and don't have a lot of options anyway....though I guess your FH idea could work to if you can get to a side platform quickly).

I was thinking full hop because it puts marth in a position to punish the (most likely) airborne falco with a bair or fair, since I've noticed most falcos like to jump after shine. I've never considered Shield SDI though. I find reacting to hits with SDI really difficult (especially when I'm being pressured on the ground or in a corner) but it's something I've been trying to work on. It seems almost a necessity in the fox matchup these days to be able to SDI shine properly to snap to ledge.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's just hard to get down quickly after FH, even with platform usage which is why I wouldn't recommend it.

Yeah I think you'd have to practice the shield SDI as well as look at how most people set it up to prime yourself for it.

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP,

I just attended my first major that occurred last weekend called Gods and Gatekeepers. As someone who is looking to break into mid-high level, I have proven myself...that it's not happening yet. Playing in bracket and a loooot of friendlies, I was exposed to so much more variety, so much more skill level. So many foreign and familiar concepts, and so many new questions. So incoming noob questions...

-Researching Fox vs. Marth videos in neutral, it seems like the common theme for Marth to generally get the punish is to throw out late hitboxes/d-tilt right outside of Fox's TR to bait the nair/drill --> dash back --> punish. Occasionally running grab is used as well. Is this something you would advocate, or is there more to it? Ex: https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=1m42s https://youtu.be/yXGPHuBaBl0?t=22s

-Regarding crouch cancelling, mainly ASDI down, do you activate it on reaction within hit, or it something you have to preemptively? Something you just automatically do when you're in lag?

-Urgh, Sheik. I don't exactly know how tbh, but I somehow find myself getting grabbed a decent amount despite playing the ground game with d-tilts and such. FH needles are a pain. Playing against good sheiks who have their punish game on lockdown feels like I'm slowly getting choked to death. For whatever reason I find myself cornered a lot which forces me to shield or another exploitable option, and it just becomes a losing game for me. I'm sick of losing this mu so I will obviously have to re-evaluate my approach in the matchup, but you got any tips?

-Against Ice Climbers, I got my first taste what getting wobbled feels like. I was playing ladder matches against this decent ICs player and was up 3 stock to 1 on Dreamland, but then two wobbles and an impressive sopo edgeguard later, I lost. Now, two of those wobbles came directly from blizzard desync. Do you have to SDI away or up? More importantly, I don't see how Marth can contest blizzard

-When analyzing videos in general, I generally have a good memory of the punish game flowchart, but not so much what led to the punish in the first place. Very often do I forget how that neutral exchange even occurred in the first place. While I am actively working on what happened, is this something you had to actively practice?

-Do you advocate going to the ledge when the opponent is re-spawning in some situations? If not, what's your general plan to avoid your opponent's moves?

Those are what in mind at the moment, but it's never ceases to amaze me how much depth Melee has.

 

[Dr Peepee]

-The main reason the Marths do those aerials close to Fox is because they expect the Foxes to move in when they see the Marths move in. This is way inside of both characters' TR. If they're wrong and Fox rushes in, then it pays to be far enough away to dash back grab yes. It's a good strategy for abusing TR but if spammed it can be abused by the Fox if they go over you, wait until your move finishes then moves in to counter your grab or do their own half approach, or knows you'll try that type of approach and moves just before you to hit you before your move comes out.

-Most people who are good at CC set it up. So if you Fair in place it creates an easy reaction to hold down afterward. Same with Dtilt or WD. You can do stuff like hold C stick down during DD if you want.

-Either get under FH needle and Uair/Fair or just move away. Sheik should consider it a risk to FH against Marth normally. Hold out when she grabs you(or slight out on low percent grabs) and that should break a lot of her punishes. If I had to guess, you probably do that Marth thing where you move in with Dtilt then dash away and look for a counterattack on the approach for a while and eventually corner yourself. If this is true, then you need to not always move back after Dtilt and instead stay in range to Dtilt/Fair Sheik if she moves forward at all. Sheik is not going to give you big obvious approaches and when she does she's going to go in super hard because her moves are pretty laggy on approach.

-If Marth gets there early he can trade run/WD Dtilt with first or second blizzard hit, but after that yeah just don't mess with it or try to move in after it ends. You SDI the blizzard up and away yeah. Just don't get bodied by the roll back blizzard desync since that one is something people don't catch on to well.

-Yeah I had to practice learning how neutral works and making up theories and finding the patterns out later. Neutral is way more complicated than punish so it's understandable it would take longer to develop. Just spend time focusing exclusively on neutral until you get it down better.

-Not really I think Marth should not be on the edge if he can avoid it, but sometimes vs Fox/Sheik/Marth maybe on YS/FoD you have to make tough calls. I see if they're one of those people who do the moves in place to cover going through them and if they are I let them take stage until they move forward a little then cross them up vs wait their inv out as they slowly creep forward, OR I cross them up when I confirm them start to come in and it usually only takes one crossup for them to lose invincibility.

 

[irv05]

Hi PP, I realize this is a touchy subject, but what do you think leffen's biggest problem is when it comes to fox v marth?

His twitter rants have led me to thinking about the match-up a ton recently, and I feel like one of the biggest problems is that the strategy fox needs to use in the match-up is not really seen in other match-ups. Generally against floaties fox plays a slow and safe laser game and goes in for the kill when he needs to. With fast-fallers + sheik, fox focuses on quick and clean approaches to overwhelm the opponent. The problem is that with marth neither of these styles work, as playing campy gives marth too much room to use late aerials but trying to go in all of the time is bad since marth has a big sword. IMO fox needs to play a 'tricky' game that focuses on applying enough pressure so that marth can't just do (somewhat) safe late aerials to pressure fox. I feel like modern foxes struggle because they try to whiff punish l-cancelled fairs/auto-cancelled nairs which is extremely difficult to do consistently even for fox. Am I going in the right direction here or is the problem something entirely different?

If you don't want to talk about leffen stuff I understand but I'm interested if my approach to the match-up is correct. I feel like this is definitely one of the deepest match-ups in melee.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Fox needs to abuse vertical play against Marth, and Leffen stays stuck to the ground all of the time. If Fox plays ground to ground he does get countered by Marth like Leffen says. Watching Leffen's most recent set with M2K I saw Leffen usually get openings/hits when going high, and losing nearly every time on the ground. Not that my focus was all there watching the set but every time I paid closer attention that's what I saw.

I'm not giving away anything I haven't told him, but it is such a shame such a good matchup is seriously underdeveloped in neutral still.

 

[Zorcey]

Is Fox's need to abuse vertical play why FD is good for Marth in neutral? I figure since Fox doesn't have platforms to mixup his landing options it makes him way more predictable/need to play on the ground more.

But given Fox needs to use more FH and platforms and stuff, what should Marth be looking for/abusing to counter these options? Because Fox can't move very far with his DJ could we try sharking him with Utlit or Uair? Is it possible to threaten Fox while remaining within TR for his FH approaches?

Also, just kind of curious, if you gave Leffen this advice and he still insists on playing a grounded game versus Marth, what was his counterargument? (If he had one lol?)

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's exactly why FD is good for neutral, in addition to letting Marth keep his DD.

You beat his primary Nair and Drill in with the obvious CC or pivot grab counters, but if Fox drifts back after jumping in it's a lot harder to beat. FH bair might also be difficult but I think Marth can CC run grab it(though not sure about when Fox is drifting away and does a super late one. It's on the list to test lol). At any rate FH Bair is great at holding position and keeping Marth out and isn't beatable without a read or beating what comes after Bair(though Fox can land without Bair and cause problems anyway).

....

There really isn't an easy way to explain handling FH to me because Fox can just do SO MUCH with it. I don't recommend Utilt because of its end lag or Uair because Fox usually won't be directly over you. Imo Fair and grab will be your best assets but it can really depend(so sometimes Utilt/Uair will be good but less often basically).

I told Leffen a FH overview and asked him to please ask me questions if he didn't understand or disagreed. He read my message and did not respond.

Please don't go talking to Leffen about this, I'm honestly worried about talking about top player convos in public anymore because of the nightmare it can cause. Don't make me regret this Smashboards.

 

[Aksorz1336]

Hey PP. Life has been handing me quite a mouthful and I don't have as much time to put into Melee, which in itself is bumming me out a little. However, I'm not giving up and is trying to schedule my days so I can get at least 2 hours of constructive practice daily.

How would you spend these hours to get the most effective training?

I'm still a pretty low-level player I'd say, trying to break into some kind of mid-level. I feel like I have a pretty sound technical ability to execute my moves, I don't think tech skill is my biggest worry. Perhaps that'd narrow down things to practice?

 

[Zorcey]

That's exactly why FD is good for neutral, in addition to letting Marth keep his DD.

You beat his primary Nair and Drill in with the obvious CC or pivot grab counters, but if Fox drifts back after jumping in it's a lot harder to beat. FH bair might also be difficult but I think Marth can CC run grab it(though not sure about when Fox is drifting away and does a super late one. It's on the list to test lol). At any rate FH Bair is great at holding position and keeping Marth out and isn't beatable without a read or beating what comes after Bair(though Fox can land without Bair and cause problems anyway).

....

There really isn't an easy way to explain handling FH to me because Fox can just do SO MUCH with it. I don't recommend Utilt because of its end lag or Uair because Fox usually won't be directly over you. Imo Fair and grab will be your best assets but it can really depend(so sometimes Utilt/Uair will be good but less often basically).

I told Leffen a FH overview and asked him to please ask me questions if he didn't understand or disagreed. He read my message and did not respond.

Please don't go talking to Leffen about this, I'm honestly worried about talking about top player convos in public anymore because of the nightmare it can cause. Don't make me regret this Smashboards.

Oh okay. I was thinking more in terms of Fox landing on platforms which is why I didn't mention CC or pivot grab, but this makes sense. I'll just have to work out the situations, thanks.

Oh, and nah, I had no intention of doing anything like that - I know your reservations about "taking shots" or whatever. I was just legitimately curious, I gotchu PP <3

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP. Life has been handing me quite a mouthful and I don't have as much time to put into Melee, which in itself is bumming me out a little. However, I'm not giving up and is trying to schedule my days so I can get at least 2 hours of constructive practice daily.

How would you spend these hours to get the most effective training?

I'm still a pretty low-level player I'd say, trying to break into some kind of mid-level. I feel like I have a pretty sound technical ability to execute my moves, I don't think tech skill is my biggest worry. Perhaps that'd narrow down things to practice?

You still want to practice basic tech and get into mixups using basic action strings as a staple part of your practice, so I don't think avoiding tech practice is good. Also you want to work combos and tech chases with 20XX, and I think the replay feature helps with some edgeguarding practice, as well as helping your own SDI practice as well. Between all of that there's a lot to work on, especially if you're also working in analysis for new ideas and things to practice.

Oh okay. I was thinking more in terms of Fox landing on platforms which is why I didn't mention CC or pivot grab, but this makes sense. I'll just have to work out the situations, thanks.

Oh, and nah, I had no intention of doing anything like that - I know your reservations about "taking shots" or whatever. I was just legitimately curious, I gotchu PP <3

If he's landing on platforms you can occasionally snipe the landing, but at low percent that's not really worth it unless you're super spaced lol. But yeah just work on it and let me know.

And it's not the regulars that worry me it's the lurkers lol. Smash politics is too much for me and I really dislike getting involved in it lol. Thanks for the support though =)

 

[delaysb]

Pikachu Uthrow Stuff:
Again I want to start with the fact that some of the information is not 100% accurate and still will probably go through some updates and revisions over time but the general ideas are still there.

Something I didn't add in the marth post I made was a little bit of frame data about jumping out that I found interesting and confirmed that it was a pattern for at least pikachu and marth. Essentially the frame you can jump out on is determined by percent, there may be other factors but percent is the only one I know of. Depending on how many frames marth's uthrow takes on a specific character is where the chart starts but from there the pattern is consistent. Here the chart for pikachu.

Uthrow takes 35 frames and marth can act on frame 36
The following are percent ranges followed by the frame that pikachu can jump out on.
The percent ranges seem to be the same for all characters but i've only tested two so far and the frame you can jump out on always goes up by one as you jump up into the next percent range.
- 0-3% - 43
- 4-8% - 44
- 9-12% - 45
- 13-17% - 46
- 18-21% - 47
- 22-26% - 48
- 27-30% - 49
- 31-35% - 50
- 36-40% - 51
- 41-44% - 52
- 45-49% - 53
- 50-53% - 54
- 54-58% - 55
- 59-63% - 56
- 64-67% - 57
- 68-72% - 58
- 73-76% - 59

Anyways with that out of the way here's the important stuff.

Note on listed frame windows for how much its guaranteed by:
When I put that there is a two frame window that its guaranteed by that means if you start your FIRST action(typically jump) 2 frames late you can still hit. If you jump on the perfect frame you typically have even more than those 2 frames to play around with swing timings.

Uthrow Utilt:
No DI:
0-3%: Pikachu has a 1-2 frame window to jump out of utilt
4-8%: Pikachu has a 2 frame window to jump out of utilt
Past this point pretty much all utilt followups have to be waited a frame or two for because of the height pikachu is sent to and thus pikachu has a decent amount of time to jump out

Away DI:
utilt whiffs completely on full DI away even at 0%, you would have to walk forward for a frame or two giving them that many extra frames to jump out so its not worth going for. Not really sure whats better to do instead, maybe fthrow or dthrow? there may be other followups super low percent off uthrow but idk.

Inward/Behind DI:
Inward DI has the same frame windows as no DI for jump outs, with the exception of around 9% turnaround utilt is guaranteed if frame perfect

Slight DI:
As far as I could tell Slight DI had the same jumpout windows as no DI

Uthrow Uair/Fair/Bair:
Notes: DJ aerials actually seem to be slower and are only really useful if fh wont reach, at that point its not guaranteed anyways.
0-X frames of room means that at the high end of the percent range the number on the left is the amount of frames you have, the number on the right is the amount of frames of error at the lower side of the percent range.

No DI:
9-12%: Pikachu has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
13-17% Pikachu has a 0-1 frame window to jump out of shuair
18-21%: Pikachu has 0-1 frame window to jump out of shuair
22-26%: shuair is guaranteed with 0 frames of room for error
27-30%: shuair is guaranteed with 1 frame of room for error at 27-28% and stops working at 29%, fhuair is guaranteed with 2-3 frames of room for error
31-35%: fhuair is guaranteed with 3-4 frames of room for error
36-40%: fhuair is guaranteed with 3-4 frames of room for error(you have to start waiting a frame or two to swing around 40%)
41-44%: fhuair guaranteed with 3-4 frames of room for error
45-49%: fhuair guaranteed with 2-4 frames of room for error
50-53%: fhuair guaranteed with 2-3 frames of room for error
54-58%: fhuair guaranteed with 2 frames of room for error
59-63%: fhuair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error
64-67%: fhuair guaranteed with 0-1 frames of room for error

Away DI:
Note: Uairs on away DI are possible but almost always slower and less guaranteed, however can set up for juggles but the fair/bair sets up corner position or edgeguard most of the time.
9-12%: fhfair guaranteed with 1 frame of room for error, shuair pikachu has 2 frame jump out window
13-17%: fhfair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, shuair pikachu has 1 frame window to jump out
18-21%: fhfair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, shuair pikachu has 1-2 frame window to jump out
22-26%: fhfair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, dash shuair pikachu has 1 frame window to jump out, dash fhuair guaranteed with 1 frame of room for error
27-30%: fhfair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, dash shuair pikachu has 1 frame window to jump out, dash fhuair guaranteed with 2 frames of room for error
31-35%: fhfair guaranteed with 2 frames of room for error, dash fhuair guaranteed with 2 frames of room for error
36-40%: fhfair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, dash fhuair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error
41-44%: fhfair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, dash fhuair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error
45-49%: fhfair guaranteed with 1 frame of room for error, dash fhuair guaranteed with 0-1 frames of room for error
50-53%: fhfair guaranteed with 0-1 frames of room for error
54-56% fhfair guaranteed with 0 frames of room for error
Past this point it seems nothing is guaranteed

In/Behind DI:
Notes: Slight drift back gets tippers most of the time but can miss and jump back or full drift back is a closer hitbox hit
9-12%: fhbair guaranteed with 0-1 frames of room for error, backwards shuair pikachu has 0-1 frames to jump out
13-17%: fhbair guaranteed with 0-1 frames of room for error, backwards shuair pikachu has 0-1 frames to jump out
18-21%: fhbair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, backwards shuair pikachu has 0-1 frames to jump out
22-26%: fhbair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, backwards shuair pikachu has 0-1 frames to jump out
27-30%: fhbair guaranteed with 2 frames of room for error, backwards shuair pikachu has 0-1 frames to jump out
31-35% fhbair guaranteed with 1-3 frames of room for error, backwards shuair pikachu has 0-1 frames to jump out(backwards shuair stops working around here because they drift too far away, use dashback instead), dashback fhuair guaranteed with 1 frame of room for error
36-40%: fhbair guaranteed with 1-3 frames of room for error, dashback fhuair guaranteed with 1-3 frames of room for error, dashback fhfair guaranteed with 1-3 frames of room for error
41-44%: fhbair/dashback fhuair/dashback fhfair guaranteed with 2 frames of room for error
45-49%: fhbair/dashback fhuair/dashback fhfair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error
50-53%: fhbair/dashback fhuair/dashback fhfair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error
54-58%: fhbair/dashback fhuair/dashback fhfair guaranteed with 0-1 frames of room for error
Past this point nothing seems to be guaranteed

Slight DI: Doesnt seem to change much besides its slightly easier to hit maybe saving a frame or so.

Also the followups you can get after some of these are a bit odd so just play around with it a bit, i'm honestly not sure what is best after some of the guaranteed hits. With Bair and Fair its pretty easy to keep fairing to the ledge and corner pressure/ edgeguard. The uairs are a little bit tougher to followup but theres still something there.

Please let me know if you find anything wrong with this and ill update as soon as I can. I getting a little burnt out on these but ill return to them in the future sometime most likely. I want to start working on neutral game and all the other things being discussed actively on the boards .

 

[Dr Peepee]

Port would be something else that affects jump out frames, but do you have any idea what else could affect it?

Are you suggesting every character is stunned the same amount by Uthrow? Then it would mainly be about how their DJ worked, port, staling, and how much lag Marth is in from throw(their weight) that has variance in his punishes right?

Are these percents starting percents? Like 0-3% has to be from 0, 1, 2, 3 when you Uthrow it all works the same right?

What does 0 frame window mean, it's just if you're perfect they get hit right?

For your ranges, there are often middle percents. I doubt there's any consistency in whether those middle percents have more or less leniency since not directly listed, but it does make application slightly more difficult sometimes I'd think. I can work out specifics on my own though, just thought I'd give a heads up.

Why do you have to start waiting to swing at those mid percents?

And just the usual: were you closer to port 1/controlling for staling?

Can you make a post saying when you feel like this chart is good so I can save it please? =p

Thanks a ton for making this! In some ways it makes me feel a little better about the matchup, in some ways less so. I was most surprised about the low percent Utilt being somewhat possible.

I don't personally have any other burning questions about throws so I do hope your neutral work goes well =)

 

[UnderTheKnife]

Hey PP! Reporting back on some of the practice I've done regarding intention, neutral, etc.

As I've been traveling most of this and last week, I've only had a chance to do one hour training session with this work - what I did was wavedash around and ask "what options are available to me with this movement?" and do various options - dtilt, dash forward, dash back etc. and then after performing that action, ask myself the same question - "what options are available? can I mix up the timing? the drift?" etc. and kept following that path, it turns out there's a lot to explore! It felt very much like a tree, with different branches extending off. Keep in mind, I still don't know if this is what you have in mind in regards to this practice, so feel free to correct me LOL

In any case, the day after this practice there was a tournament and I ended up getting 2nd, getting double eliminated by our best player (puff main - a lot to learn there haha) and I could deeeeeeeeefinitly see a difference in my play!

Just checking in and letting you know that your words are helping me and others. If there's anything I'm missing in terms of this practice let me know! I'm excited to keep exploring what's possible and I think that this in conjunction with some analysis and punish work will take me a long way

 

[Dr Peepee]

That is actually how it should feel, and I hope you continue to explore it with all of your tools, movement and otherwise! Good luck =)

 

[delaysb]

Port would be something else that affects jump out frames, but do you have any idea what else could affect it?

Are you suggesting every character is stunned the same amount by Uthrow? Then it would mainly be about how their DJ worked, port, staling, and how much lag Marth is in from throw(their weight) that has variance in his punishes right?

Are these percents starting percents? Like 0-3% has to be from 0, 1, 2, 3 when you Uthrow it all works the same right?

What does 0 frame window mean, it's just if you're perfect they get hit right?

For your ranges, there are often middle percents. I doubt there's any consistency in whether those middle percents have more or less leniency since not directly listed, but it does make application slightly more difficult sometimes I'd think. I can work out specifics on my own though, just thought I'd give a heads up.

Why do you have to start waiting to swing at those mid percents?

And just the usual: were you closer to port 1/controlling for staling?

Can you make a post saying when you feel like this chart is good so I can save it please? =p

Thanks a ton for making this! In some ways it makes me feel a little better about the matchup, in some ways less so. I was most surprised about the low percent Utilt being somewhat possible.

I don't personally have any other burning questions about throws so I do hope your neutral work goes well =)

I have no idea what else could affect jump out frames off the top of my head besides port.

I wasnt suggesting every character is stunned the same but once you figure out how long uthrow takes and when they can jump out at 0% you can figure out what frame they can jump out on at any percent. For example uthrow on pikachu takes 35 frames and marth can act on frame 36. If you buffer jump inputs and go frame by frame you can find the first frame pikachu is able to jump out of hitstun from uthrow. In this case at 0% pikachu can jump out on frame 43. The frames are counted as 1 being the first frame pikachu was thrown, so 43 would be that many frames after you initiate uthrow. Given the number 43 you can use the percent ranges I wrote down to determine what frame pikachu can jump out of at any percent. Each percent range the hitstun increases by one frame. So 4-8 percent would mean it pikachu cant jump out until one frame after he would be able to jump out at 0-3% and so on. The initial frame number at 0% will vary for all characters based on their attributes such as weight etc. Let me know if thats confusing or if anything needs to be clarified further its weird to explain.

The percents are percent before throw and 0-3 includes 0,1,2,3, the followups listed under there all work at those listed percents.

0 frame window means you have to be frame perfect, I usually only used it when it was 0-1 frame window, meaning for the percent range 0-3 at 0% you would have a 1 frame window for error room and at 3% you would have 0 room for error. There were weird variances in followups like that where it was guaranteed at the low end of the percent range(0-1) and at the high range(2-3) it wasnt guaranteed and they would have 1 frame to jump out or something. Not sure why but thats what I observed while testing and it happened at most of the percent ranges oddly enough.

Yea there are variances in the ranges I tried my best to give a somewhat brief explanation of what they meant though. For the most part most of the followups are the same but once you get into middle of a specific percent range like 31-35, 31-33% would have a 2 frame window for error and 34-35% would have 1 frame of error room, I just listed as 1-3 frames of error room for those cases but the followups are all still the same I believe just slightly different in terms of how much room you have to mess up inputs.

Waiting to swing at mid percents just meant that if you swung on the first possible airborne frame the swing would whiff just barely and you would have to wait a frame or two so that you are close enough for the hitbox to actually connect. Its mostly just eyeballing and knowing when your sword will connect when you swing it and knowing the range the sword actually has.

Port 1 was throwing and Port 2 was being thrown.

Im pretty confident in the accuracy of the post I was pretty thorough just a little hesitant as putting it out as end all be all. The general followups will always be the same under those percents the frames of leniency just may change by 1 or 2 max.

Yea the matchup and punishes seem really odd in general but the backair and fair stuff seems to do pretty well. I havent really tested it out in practice but ill see how they work out because im genuinely curious to see how effective uthrow punishes are in practice.

Thanks ill be going back through and working on all this threatening range and tool examination stuff! Thanks for all the clarification on those topics the posts have been super informative i'm really excited to get on that neutral grind

 

[lokt]

What are the pros and cons of using dtilt/ jump late fair against someone dash dancing in the corner(outside rising fair range)?

Lately I've been using jump fair instead of wd dtilt it seems to be strictly better, I can't really think of a reason to use dtilt.

 

[ridemyboat]

Dr. PeePee, something I've been thinking about lately is how to figure out whether my opponents actions are intentional or not.

When you do some mixup, do you check what percentage of the time they respond with something different? Do you have rough percentages in mind for how a competent player would respond?

How much outside the game knowledge comes into play? For example, you already know Armada is competent, probably in most (every?) aspect of the game. Does that change how you figure out whether an action was intentional when you play Armada, versus someone less skilled?

Playing this ncase trust game made me wonder what the copycat, cheater, and grudge actors look like in melee. The probability of miscommunication in the trust game seems applicable. Do these actors exist in a double elimination setting?

http://ncase.me/trust/

My guess so far is that I need to measure adaptation first. By that I mean, how long until they recognize that there is a mixup. Then I need to look at how much of the mixup they understand. If there are 3 options, can they do all 3. But I'm worried that the rabbit hole gets deeper, because if I exploit a mixup that someone doesn't know about or adapt to, then I'm not getting practice against people who do adapt and know about the mixup.

 

[UnderTheKnife]

Question for the Fox matchup:

What can Marth do when his back is turned on an approaching Fox? A lot of the time, Fox will attack me as I'm dashing back, or as I'm in my shield while my back is turned, leaving me with limited escape options, most of which are reactable. I think this is my biggest sticking point in the matchup atm, so any help is invaluable! I'm beginning to think perhaps that Marth should limit the time his back is turned to his opponent as much as possible as a general rule.

 

[Signia]

Pikachu Uthrow Stuff:

Buddy join the Marth R&D discord, you might find people that'll be willing to collaborate or at least divide up work. Great stuff btw.

discord.gg/01352PHCHms6PyCv9

 

[Blatant J]

Any advice on how to di falcon's throws? I get 0-death'd way too much by this character

 

[AirFair]

Any advice on how to di falcon's throws? I get 0-death'd way too much by this character

I think the general rule of thumb is to DI falcon's throws down and away in order to escape most followups, except he can sort of techchase you at lower percents off of that.

 

[Kotastic]

Any advice on how to di falcon's throws? I get 0-death'd way too much by this character

At low percents, DI in so Falcon can't tech-chase you when you DI out. When you DI in, Falcon's true combo is to nair you. You can SDI up and out to get out of a normal SH nair, but Falcon can read that SDI like rising nair so you can mix-up such as down. Most of the time though at least at first, up and out should suffice. Practice this in 20XX replays.

I think a good rule of thumb is to DI in at ~70% and then DI out after 70%, something I think druggedfox said in his Falcon Marth analysis. Marth can punish just as hard as Falcon can, arguably way harder actually.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What are the pros and cons of using dtilt/ jump late fair against someone dash dancing in the corner(outside rising fair range)?

Lately I've been using jump fair instead of wd dtilt it seems to be strictly better, I can't really think of a reason to use dtilt.

Fair covers more options and since they can't dash back it often is better. The issue with using late Fair is they can come in and intercept you if they have a good prediction/really good reaction but yeah if something works then do it.

Dr. PeePee, something I've been thinking about lately is how to figure out whether my opponents actions are intentional or not.

When you do some mixup, do you check what percentage of the time they respond with something different? Do you have rough percentages in mind for how a competent player would respond?

How much outside the game knowledge comes into play? For example, you already know Armada is competent, probably in most (every?) aspect of the game. Does that change how you figure out whether an action was intentional when you play Armada, versus someone less skilled?

Playing this ncase trust game made me wonder what the copycat, cheater, and grudge actors look like in melee. The probability of miscommunication in the trust game seems applicable. Do these actors exist in a double elimination setting?

http://ncase.me/trust/

My guess so far is that I need to measure adaptation first. By that I mean, how long until they recognize that there is a mixup. Then I need to look at how much of the mixup they understand. If there are 3 options, can they do all 3. But I'm worried that the rabbit hole gets deeper, because if I exploit a mixup that someone doesn't know about or adapt to, then I'm not getting practice against people who do adapt and know about the mixup.

There are ways you can check for understanding when you know your own setups and know positions well. Small variances in dashes should produce different results, but sometimes they don't because people have their own way of dealing with you pushing into their space or how to handle a certain position and so on. You don't have to guess much and can use your actions for free reads as I've said. Now obviously Armada is going to need less noob skill checks than a player I'd play in pools, but you gain information all the same against both so you know what to abuse. Another way to talk about checks is like being able to move in slow motion mentally when you execute a setup. Since you've done it so many times, you see very small decision points along the path of the actions you take. Chances are if your opponent only responds at the very end/after you've completed the action, they aren't aware of what's going on. This is why I say practice basics so much.

Question for the Fox matchup:

What can Marth do when his back is turned on an approaching Fox? A lot of the time, Fox will attack me as I'm dashing back, or as I'm in my shield while my back is turned, leaving me with limited escape options, most of which are reactable. I think this is my biggest sticking point in the matchup atm, so any help is invaluable! I'm beginning to think perhaps that Marth should limit the time his back is turned to his opponent as much as possible as a general rule.

Pivot Fair is best since you can retreat but pivot Nair, pivot WD back(jump), dash through Fox or dash in grab....those are all good options.

Buddy join the Marth R&D discord, you might find people that'll be willing to collaborate or at least divide up work. Great stuff btw.

discord.gg/01352PHCHms6PyCv9

Does the Marth R&D discord ever share anything in here or in Kadano's thread?

Any advice on how to di falcon's throws? I get 0-death'd way too much by this character

Low percent I think varying/in DI is better, and then middle and higher percents you want to do slight in since Falcon can't follow it with Uthrow(watch Moon None at Smash Factor to see it). Falcon can still punish off of Dthrow with this DI but I think it's hard.

 

[Blatant J]

Does the Marth R&D discord ever share anything in here or in Kadano's thread?

Not really tbh

 

[delaysb]

Buddy join the Marth R&D discord, you might find people that'll be willing to collaborate or at least divide up work. Great stuff btw.

discord.gg/01352PHCHms6PyCv9

Thanks I had no idea this even existed I'll check it out!

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP. I notice one of my bigger problems as of late is my tendency to get impatient and throw away leads by doing something risky, i.e. f-smash to forcefully finish the game and my opponents taking full advantage of that. Better players than me take note of that and severely punish this, like how I got wobbled despite being up 3 stocks to 1 during my ladder matches and just recently at a local I was up 3 stock to 1 vs. a Gannon significantly better than me and just threw it away doing risky stuff. While this is something I'm keeping note of to just stop being impatient when victory is close, you have any inputs of this matter?