Well I just watched some of druggedfox's recent sets and looked for the retreating fairs. He didn't seem to use it very much, but it seemed to work out okay for him when he did use it. I really only saw him use it vs Fox on FD, but I didn't watch too much. He didn't use it once in the game I watched him play vs. Fox on YS or in the sets vs. Sheik/Falco. It didn't strike me as particularly great, at least for me looking through the lens of my own play and how much I can struggle in movement-heavy mixups vs. Fox and to a lesser extent, Falcon. Not to say I think it is bad, but I just don't think I have a developed enough game to get the most out it while it also opens up one of my particular weaknesses to exploitation. He definitely uses it from further away than I do, seemingly just to zone and deter them from coming out of the corner too brashly. I do think it is smarter than the way I use it, which is more aggressive and susceptible to them either being able to get into my space on whiff or just flat out beat it before my fair can cover Marth's body. I also don't really ever waveland after the fair so i am sure that contributes to the issue of feeling disadvantaged on whiff. Also would make sense why I find it better against characters who I have a ground movement advantage against. After thinking about it, I also feel like at some point in experimenting with it, I started using it too often and so good Foxes/Falcons/Falco have been able to pick up on it and punish me for being too aggressive too often, whereas other characters can't do as much or can't punish it well enough for it to matter. I don't have videos to compare our usage of it, but I think that sums it up pretty okay. I am going to try spacing it from farther away vs. Fox/Falcon and only using it on longer stages and see how it works out. I also assume it is just bad in Marth dittoes and have never bothered trying it.
I made these adjustments and have been testing it out to some good success. It actually had kind of a snowball effect on my neutral game by causing me to be slightly less aggressive in general and I sort of was able to bridge together a lot of my movement ideas from the last time I got really into improving my Marth with an improved punish game and my improved matchup knowledge.
The last two days I have played probably the best Marth I have ever played and I think this forward air adjustment put some of the rest of my game in place. I actually used to use it less aggressively when I first started doing it, but I wasn't good at mixing it in with more aggressive approaches and often got beaten by good defensive players who were comfortable in the corner and at the ledge. I think that prompted me to pick up a bad habit of trying to push in too hard with it, and just in general. I honestly have gotten a ton of mileage out of doing nearly the same things I was before, except from closer to center stage, and I feel so much more in control. I sort of lost sight of how to take stage and properly control the center at some point and became too one-dimensional and predictable as I went off the deep end of trying to cover too many options on reaction but not really giving myself proper windows in which to react. I feel like my approaches and decision making has really taken a turn upwards, and I sort of feel like a "real Marth" for the first time, being able to really control the ground and abuse the sword, pressing in at the right times, choking out space, and getting the most out of my grabs/stage control.
Just in the last two days I have beaten two top 50 ranked players on netplay, including one of the top fox mains, whereas I had previously never beaten anybody in the top 100. Not a huge accomplishment or anything, but its definitely nice to see some progress. I definitely encourage people to experiment with retreating fair, or even just immediate fair in place, and am now of the mind that it is a really important tool against certain characters. You do have to kind of set it up with your movement and your dtilt, but once you do, it can really put in work. Even if it just hits once a game, that one time can turn into a stock at a high ratio and with how low risk it is, it can really be a difference maker in close games while not giving up too much for the opportunity.
Also, if people don't like me sort of treating the thread like a journal at times, just let me know and i will stop. It just feels like a good place to throw out thoughts, and I figure other people might like to hear what somebody else is thinking. This has become more of just an ask PP thread these days, but I think it would be cool to get this thread back into more of a general Marth discussion again.
What do you think about Marth's D-air and how would you use it in a situation or a combo?
Dair... Well the obvious is that it is good for spiking opponents offstage, and popping them up onstage. Long landing lag, but somewhat quick with a huge hitbox that covers both sides of Marth along withbelow him and is easy to tipper becasue of the hitbox priority. You have likely picked up on the fact that it is easier to tip dair than other swings. That is because other swings non-tipper hitboxes override the tipper if both of them connect. On dair, it is the oppostie, meaning that so long as a tipper hitbox connects, it is a tipper. Dair also has good hitstun and being a spike, can be helpful in beating characters that like to CC in certain situations because they don't get the full effect of CC against spikes. I really don't advocate for dair as .anything other than a combo starter or finisher in most situations, but it can be good OOS at the right times, and can be useful in covering your descent from a juggle against certain characters, especially if they want to chase you high and dont have their DJ to bait and punish you with. Although it is a bold play most of the time, it can be helpful, especially if the other character doesn't have good vertical mobility or a good aerial to challenge it with. Unfortunately, that is pretty rare since pretty much only Peach/Puff/ICs have those isues when considering top tiers. Puff is just too risky to attempt it against and doesn't often find herself trying to juggle Marth to begin with and a good Peach player isn't going to overextend vertically like that very often since it isn't really any better than covering your landing and/or pulling a turnip in most situations. ICs also like to control the ground and don't really like to chase too much unless you are lower to the ground in which case landing with a dair can be a potential grab opening if they play their cards right. Against characters like the Mario Bros, Samus to some extent, and alot of the lesser played characters, it becomes better, but still not exactly Falco's dair.
Also, check this ****:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q86OSsFXHwo&feature=youtu.be&t=637
Best dair I have seen in a while.
Dr Peepee
So I am somewhat new (Been playing for 2 years, going to tournaments for a couple months) and I really like playing both Falco and Marth. In general I am better with Falco right now because my punish game with him is a lot better, but I have a really hard time with the Falco ditto so I have started using Marth for that matchup. But I was reading Umbreon's drastic improvement guide and he strongly suggests picking and sticking to one character until I get to a really good place using only that character. So I guess my question is do you think it is harmful for me at this point in my "career" to rely on Marth for that matchup?
