Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kotastic]

Ok, here's some footage of me crossing up

The ones that worked but missed an opening punish
https://clips.twitch.tv/VibrantMistyNeanderthalBibleThump
https://clips.twitch.tv/PoorCredulousJackalRalpherZ
https://clips.twitch.tv/ManlyPiliableDuckVoteNay
https://clips.twitch.tv/SaltySavoryOtterKappaPride - ?
https://clips.twitch.tv/VivaciousMotionlessNewtUnSane

It seemed that many of them I simply wasn't in control/aware that my crossup work to at least play mixup. However, there were some that I simply wasn't in range to punish like the first clip, so I'm wondering if I can do much?

The ones that worked with an opening punish
https://goo.gl/y4wpGo (SB censored some of the twitch clip names LOL) - do you think this is reactable or a read?
https://clips.twitch.tv/FunnyInnocentStorkBlargNaut
https://clips.twitch.tv/CoySullenTruffleStoneLightning - Required extra read
https://clips.twitch.tv/RelentlessSeductiveBasenjiMrDestructoid
https://clips.twitch.tv/PopularGorgeousQuailRiPepperonis - Required extra read
https://clips.twitch.tv/EntertainingHomelyWrenHoneyBadger - Required extra read
https://clips.twitch.tv/FlaccidObservantReubenBatChest - I really like this

This worked pretty well vs FH. I also really like the last clip where I can somewhat reliably grab Sheik's fair. Though there were some that felt a bit unnecessary like the second clip, where dash back also would've worked fine? My major concern is that many of them required an extra read to make my crossup work, making me having to outplay them more. Do you think this can be polished further or something that's a matter of fact?

The ones that didnt work
https://goo.gl/8ceaFD - First time i got stuffed with a bair, and the other one I missed my extra read opening
https://clips.twitch.tv/CrazyHilariousZucchiniFrankerZ
https://clips.twitch.tv/ProductiveRealAlfalfaSpicyBoy
https://clips.twitch.tv/HelplessFragilePotRuleFive
https://clips.twitch.tv/AggressiveRelentlessMageMau5
https://clips.twitch.tv/CoySpineyGnatDancingBanana

It seemed like a general pattern is that because I'm willingly going past their boundaries, at some point they will just attack in place. This opens up a mixup for me to catch them with some DA/dtilt, making my dash dance stronger with its defense and observation notes.

Do these seem fine to you?

https://clips.twitch.tv/MildBoxyOxM4xHeh - How can I cover all tech roll options? Is it a 50/50 or reactable?

https://clips.twitch.tv/SourPeacefulMilkFunRun - Would crossing up Peach here be good because she's trying to avoid my nair in place? Crossing up Peach though seems pretty scary.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

https://gfycat.com/LividSmartIrishdraughthorse

So in this gif I attempt to attack Ganon from the ledge while he is CCing. This doesn't work as I get jabbed and it goes into an edgeguard sequence. I was struggling to figure out what to do from the ledge with Ganon so close to the stage that doesn't get me killed and allows me to either hit him or get back to center stage. I was at first thinking to dair him from ledge here but I'm not entirely sure if the follow ups would be worthwhile. I've seen other characters like Fox, Falco, Sheik, etc. crouch at the ledge here and I'm tempted to nair or attack them to break their CC but that gets me punished a lot more than not. I'm sure there are some things I could do differently depending on the matchup, but what are some general tips for dealing with characters that like to CC at the ledge like this?

In addition, I'm not sure how I should be trying to recover against Ganon in this situation. I'm used to playing this from Ganon's perspective but now that I'm the Marth in this instance, I'm not sure if I should try to recover from back more, delay my up-b more, try to sweetspot and tech the upair tipman, or what. Any help here would be useful as well.

 

[Kopaka]

Taking this idea of focused practice that I've been doing solo and using it in friendlies against 3 different people/different characters. It's actually been really refreshing the most fun I've had in friendlies in awhile lol. what i'll do is pick like "fair only out of neutral, no shielding" "dtilt only out of neutral" "grab only" etc.

what I've found is that ill still unconsciously go for things that aren't fair and ill use shield. I've also found that people start to act really interestingly once you keep hitting them with certain moves. Sometimes they start to shield a lot after I've faired them over and over, even when the fair has missed. Then I can grab. I've been doing this against people a bit lower than me overall in skill, but I still think there's a lot of things that I would have overlooked if I were playing how I was before I started doing this. I was going to say normally, but this type of practice is kind of becoming my "normal" play in a way? Like I'm just tunnel visioning hard on specific moves out of neutral, and seeing where it works and doesn't, so it's basically becoming my gameplan in a way. against ics I'd pick dtilt over and over, and really feel how it can be abused. I've been doing the not doing a certain move out of neutral thing to, which is just switching off between only fairing and only dtilting.

RedmanSSBM This might sound obvious or rude, but you could try to not immediately attack from the ledge since a lot of people can blow you up for it. Rolling, air dodging into the stage. buffering shield. especially if you see they've been holding down for a minute

 

[Agrathor3]

So this isn't really marth specific but entered my third local and proceeded to go 0-2 like a champ but I feel like I majorly underperform in bracket for example I played against a samus who is always at the local for probably an hour or so before the bracket started and I won about 80% of the games we played and I figured out what options he likes and most of his bad habits like recovering the same way always teaching in on the left platform and trying to approach right after he missiles and yet when I faced him in tourney the first game was on point a solid 3 stock where I read him like a book but then the next two games I barely lost and I felt like i just played really sloppily like missing pivots that I do all the time and dropping combos after missing l cancels and just poor dash dance spacing, running into missiles that I could've shielded and stuff like that. The worst part was like 20 minutes later he asked if I would warm him up a bit for his next match since it was going to be against a marth and then I 3 stocked him twice in a row. So I'm at a loss here I just seem to perform horribly in bracket even against people I know I should be able to beat and I'm not really sure how to fix this problem because it's happened every time I've entered. I guess what I'm looking for is any advice on how to stop choking in bracket?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ok, here's some footage of me crossing up

The ones that worked but missed an opening punish
https://clips.twitch.tv/VibrantMistyNeanderthalBibleThump
https://clips.twitch.tv/PoorCredulousJackalRalpherZ
https://clips.twitch.tv/ManlyPiliableDuckVoteNay
https://clips.twitch.tv/SaltySavoryOtterKappaPride - ?
https://clips.twitch.tv/VivaciousMotionlessNewtUnSane

It seemed that many of them I simply wasn't in control/aware that my crossup work to at least play mixup. However, there were some that I simply wasn't in range to punish like the first clip, so I'm wondering if I can do much?

The ones that worked with an opening punish
https://goo.gl/y4wpGo (SB censored some of the twitch clip names LOL) - do you think this is reactable or a read?
https://clips.twitch.tv/FunnyInnocentStorkBlargNaut
https://clips.twitch.tv/CoySullenTruffleStoneLightning - Required extra read
https://clips.twitch.tv/RelentlessSeductiveBasenjiMrDestructoid
https://clips.twitch.tv/PopularGorgeousQuailRiPepperonis - Required extra read
https://clips.twitch.tv/EntertainingHomelyWrenHoneyBadger - Required extra read
https://clips.twitch.tv/FlaccidObservantReubenBatChest - I really like this

This worked pretty well vs FH. I also really like the last clip where I can somewhat reliably grab Sheik's fair. Though there were some that felt a bit unnecessary like the second clip, where dash back also would've worked fine? My major concern is that many of them required an extra read to make my crossup work, making me having to outplay them more. Do you think this can be polished further or something that's a matter of fact?

The ones that didnt work
https://goo.gl/8ceaFD - First time i got stuffed with a bair, and the other one I missed my extra read opening
https://clips.twitch.tv/CrazyHilariousZucchiniFrankerZ
https://clips.twitch.tv/ProductiveRealAlfalfaSpicyBoy
https://clips.twitch.tv/HelplessFragilePotRuleFive
https://clips.twitch.tv/AggressiveRelentlessMageMau5
https://clips.twitch.tv/CoySpineyGnatDancingBanana

It seemed like a general pattern is that because I'm willingly going past their boundaries, at some point they will just attack in place. This opens up a mixup for me to catch them with some DA/dtilt, making my dash dance stronger with its defense and observation notes.

Do these seem fine to you?

https://clips.twitch.tv/MildBoxyOxM4xHeh - How can I cover all tech roll options? Is it a 50/50 or reactable?

https://clips.twitch.tv/SourPeacefulMilkFunRun - Would crossing up Peach here be good because she's trying to avoid my nair in place? Crossing up Peach though seems pretty scary.

These first ones make me remember that vs spacies this is more okay and otherwise you have to hope Sheik jumps for it to work. But if you're going to hope Sheik jumps or spacies approach and you want to gamble, I feel there are safer or possibly more effective. Vs the first Falco one for example I feel a dash back pivot grab would've worked fine. I'll watch the rest before saying more.

That DJ was reactable. If he moved in while you WD'd in it would've been bad for you though, but maybe conditioning made you more confident.
Oh that's right, I remember doing this vs Falco some if I thought he would laser in place OR move in because I could move in side B with worse reactions or Fair/Nair with better ones and otherwise grab if he goes over me. However, this only works if he Nairs and if he Dairs then I lose, so I quickly stopped doing it so much. As long as you're fighting against Nair this is more okay.
Watching more of the successful ones, even if it requires an extra read, I'm reminded that it's an utterly confusing position for the opponent if you do cross them up which makes them more susceptible to manipulation and slow reaction time. Also if the opponent is quite close then it becomes a mixup between forward back and attack in place which does give you depth, even if that depth has issues I have mentioned.
Yeah the rest of the successful ones I just kept thinking "you could have just punished them before this." NOW that doesn't mean it's inherently bad. Sometimes winning neutral in longer or more unconventional ways can confuse your opponent or make you harder to cover(Hbox is an example of neutral taking longer). But it's worth having both the straightforward and the more complicated in your wheelhouse so you can make use of them. Imagine for example that you had been winning neutral largely in the straightforward way and then in a tense last stock situation you would be pretty free to crossup Fsmash and it may tipper. That is much more likely to work and also induce fear of the option. This an extreme example but more balanced options exist. After all, Ken and Azen were crossing people up for years and it was working so it is just a good thing sometimes.

Tech skill, going for crossups repeatedly, their fadebacks or early aerials, or you just being off timed were why these didn't work.

Yeah if it forces them to attack in place then you can beat that more easily.

I believe FH backward but then react and DJ forward to Uair works here. You may also be able to DJ waveland grab or DJ land grab especially if he's just going to hold shield. Fair may also work but it could be a bit finnicky if he DIs away, although that does open up an edgeguard scenario if you can force him away.

It's pretty risky to do this vs Peach. She often FCs in place or slightly one way or the other anyway and you'd be running into her base gameplan then. Fair is a better choice at that float height anyway.

https://gfycat.com/LividSmartIrishdraughthorse

So in this gif I attempt to attack Ganon from the ledge while he is CCing. This doesn't work as I get jabbed and it goes into an edgeguard sequence. I was struggling to figure out what to do from the ledge with Ganon so close to the stage that doesn't get me killed and allows me to either hit him or get back to center stage. I was at first thinking to dair him from ledge here but I'm not entirely sure if the follow ups would be worthwhile. I've seen other characters like Fox, Falco, Sheik, etc. crouch at the ledge here and I'm tempted to nair or attack them to break their CC but that gets me punished a lot more than not. I'm sure there are some things I could do differently depending on the matchup, but what are some general tips for dealing with characters that like to CC at the ledge like this?

In addition, I'm not sure how I should be trying to recover against Ganon in this situation. I'm used to playing this from Ganon's perspective but now that I'm the Marth in this instance, I'm not sure if I should try to recover from back more, delay my up-b more, try to sweetspot and tech the upair tipman, or what. Any help here would be useful as well.

What Kopaka said plus haxdashing will fake things like NIL grab or edgedash or whatever. These fakes make them attack or move which is an opportunity for you. Marth can't easily get on stage but he can be tricky.

Going low is usually going to be better and trying to time an up-B around Ganon's DJ here would've been best, which going low helps with. Sometimes though you just get bodied.

Taking this idea of focused practice that I've been doing solo and using it in friendlies against 3 different people/different characters. It's actually been really refreshing the most fun I've had in friendlies in awhile lol. what i'll do is pick like "fair only out of neutral, no shielding" "dtilt only out of neutral" "grab only" etc.

what I've found is that ill still unconsciously go for things that aren't fair and ill use shield. I've also found that people start to act really interestingly once you keep hitting them with certain moves. Sometimes they start to shield a lot after I've faired them over and over, even when the fair has missed. Then I can grab. I've been doing this against people a bit lower than me overall in skill, but I still think there's a lot of things that I would have overlooked if I were playing how I was before I started doing this. I was going to say normally, but this type of practice is kind of becoming my "normal" play in a way? Like I'm just tunnel visioning hard on specific moves out of neutral, and seeing where it works and doesn't, so it's basically becoming my gameplan in a way. against ics I'd pick dtilt over and over, and really feel how it can be abused. I've been doing the not doing a certain move out of neutral thing to, which is just switching off between only fairing and only dtilting.

This is very good, and leads to more in-depth understanding and experimentation. As you become actively involved in learning and not just trying to win and finally adapting a little after getting hit the same way many times, you now learn about the deeper impact of your actions and how your tools work. Friendlies should be fun!

So this isn't really marth specific but entered my third local and proceeded to go 0-2 like a champ but I feel like I majorly underperform in bracket for example I played against a samus who is always at the local for probably an hour or so before the bracket started and I won about 80% of the games we played and I figured out what options he likes and most of his bad habits like recovering the same way always teaching in on the left platform and trying to approach right after he missiles and yet when I faced him in tourney the first game was on point a solid 3 stock where I read him like a book but then the next two games I barely lost and I felt like i just played really sloppily like missing pivots that I do all the time and dropping combos after missing l cancels and just poor dash dance spacing, running into missiles that I could've shielded and stuff like that. The worst part was like 20 minutes later he asked if I would warm him up a bit for his next match since it was going to be against a marth and then I 3 stocked him twice in a row. So I'm at a loss here I just seem to perform horribly in bracket even against people I know I should be able to beat and I'm not really sure how to fix this problem because it's happened every time I've entered. I guess what I'm looking for is any advice on how to stop choking in bracket?

What happened between games 1 and 2? What did you start thinking once things started going poorly for you in game 2? What can you practice to avoid this scenario in the future?

 

[Agrathor3]

Well after the first game we basically just banned and started the second game of course I was thinking "hey I can actually win this" so I guess I might've underestimated my opponent a bit and then in the second game I was behind and thought basically "what if I can't do this" and I guess I forgot about my game plan and started being very reactive in my play instead of proactive. I'm not really sure what to practice to deal with it though like aside from grinding to make sure the tech I use is all on point like I shouldn't be missing any tech and also work on sticking to my gameplan/having faith in my own play (not sure how to practice that last bit though XD)

 

[Kotastic]

Alright, I think I have solid ideas on how to better use crossups.

Crossups are decent at close quarters and potentially jumps, like vs. spacies/falcon, Sheik and maybe Marth, but it is somewhat of a gamble and is more apparent at longer distances where the opponent is more likely to attack in place (which in that case, I can use my WD down dtilt idea if I'm within RC dtilt distance). It's also a decent answer vs FH. Although it can't be spammed, it can be used to confuse the opponent and is decent to have in my arsenal when chances call for it.

Am I getting the basic jist of this correctly? This recent exploration of mine has made dash dancing and generally thinking out of movement really fun the past couple days, heh.

 

[Dr Peepee]

After the first game, I'd recommend reminding yourself of things to focus on in the game. No matter how good you feel, it's important to stay into the game until the set is complete. Also for practice, it can help to meditate or visualize these situations and adjust your thinking. If you get challenged, how can you catch yourself and get back into the game instead of fear the result? Something as simple as closing your eyes and taking a deep breath and letting it go between stocks really can reset you as well. There is plenty to explore here and it's good to get creative and experiment until you find what works.


Edit: Kotastic , it's best vs spacies and kinda Falcon imo but if you can get someone off balance or read them then it's fine vs those you listed. And yeah overall I'd say that's good.

 

[Agrathor3]

That's fair I definitely have a bad habit of losing focus in the middle of sets. So on the topic of visualization and meditation I have a really difficult time with it. Whenever I try I just end up being unable to stay focused on one topic for more than a minute or so and then I have to refocus on what I was attempting to visualize and it just doesn't seem very productive or efficient. Should I just keep trying and hope that eventually I figure out how to stay on topic or is there a better way to work on this?

 

[Farco]

Hi PP, so I've had a lot of last game last stock sets this year, and most of those sets I'll end up barely losing due to a desparate decision or tech error. During these situations my heart races and my hands sweat terribly, and it makes it difficult to play at my max potential. I've done some meditation and visualization in the past, but I'm honestly not too sure what I should focus on or how I could redirect my emotions.

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's fair I definitely have a bad habit of losing focus in the middle of sets. So on the topic of visualization and meditation I have a really difficult time with it. Whenever I try I just end up being unable to stay focused on one topic for more than a minute or so and then I have to refocus on what I was attempting to visualize and it just doesn't seem very productive or efficient. Should I just keep trying and hope that eventually I figure out how to stay on topic or is there a better way to work on this?

That refocusing is the most important part. It is building the skill of concentration. Just accept it and allow yourself to return, and you'll find you get better over time.

Hi PP, so I've had a lot of last game last stock sets this year, and most of those sets I'll end up barely losing due to a desparate decision or tech error. During these situations my heart races and my hands sweat terribly, and it makes it difficult to play at my max potential. I've done some meditation and visualization in the past, but I'm honestly not too sure what I should focus on or how I could redirect my emotions.

It's important to consider what you're thinking at that time, and what you should be thinking instead. How can you get back into the game? How can you build confidence, or how can a confident person respond to these difficult situations? What can you do going into the final stock?

 

[Agrathor3]

Gotcha that makes sense I'll keep working on that then. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Kotastic]

It's been another year Dr Peepee , and again I'm very grateful you're around to give us guidance in terms of gameplay and mentality. Your insights played a large role for my gradual improvement throughout the year, and I'll make sure to make the progress tangible very soon. Thank you, and I hope you're doing well!

 

[Farco]

It's important to consider what you're thinking at that time, and what you should be thinking instead. How can you get back into the game? How can you build confidence, or how can a confident person respond to these difficult situations? What can you do going into the final stock?

Usually the first thought that comes to mind is "What if I beat this guy" which definitely always increases the pressure on myself. Sometimes I'll even start thinking about what I could say to my friends if I win to further distract me. Something I've thought about doing I learned from a video Ginger made is self-assuring thoughts, like assuring myself that I'm a good player and am capable of winning. I've also considered just taking a deep breath and imagine it being the first stock again, as a sort of reset of the situation.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's been another year Dr Peepee , and again I'm very grateful you're around to give us guidance in terms of gameplay and mentality. Your insights played a large role for my gradual improvement throughout the year, and I'll make sure to make the progress tangible very soon. Thank you, and I hope you're doing well!

I'm enormously thankful and humbled by having motivated individuals such as yourself that I can work with. One big part of why I love Melee is the teaching aspect, and it truly does make me happy that I can still be of use in these times. So thank you and everyone who has been able to use my advice to improve, really.

I am thankful for Melee, for Smashboards, for esoteric eastern texts and generally countercultural works, for air, for the growth of esports and people getting to live their dreams in this space. For my improving health....I am thankful too.

Usually the first thought that comes to mind is "What if I beat this guy" which definitely always increases the pressure on myself. Sometimes I'll even start thinking about what I could say to my friends if I win to further distract me. Something I've thought about doing I learned from a video Ginger made is self-assuring thoughts, like assuring myself that I'm a good player and am capable of winning. I've also considered just taking a deep breath and imagine it being the first stock again, as a sort of reset of the situation.

I think that's a good place to start. Bringing it back into the game by thinking "how can this tense moment be making them play?" can be useful too. Now that you have some ideas it's a good time to test and then use what works and discard what doesn't. Practicing the new way of thinking can increase your chances in pressure moments too.

 

[Farco]

I think that's a good place to start. Bringing it back into the game by thinking "how can this tense moment be making them play?" can be useful too. Now that you have some ideas it's a good time to test and then use what works and discard what doesn't. Practicing the new way of thinking can increase your chances in pressure moments too.

Thank you for the response! I have 2 more tournaments I want to attend this year and I will try them out there and see how it goes.

 

[Socrates]

Hey PP, been a while

Mentality question. How do you keep a fighting spirit when you can tell the other person has "given up"? I've been in a few situations recently where I can tell the players get so dejected that they stop taking the match seriously, which causes me to have the reactionary effect of also losing interest in winning. This usually wouldn't be an issue but recently this has started happening with players at a higher skill level than I'm used to playing, so if I stop taking them seriously, they'll end up winning because the momentum starts to shift in their direction.

I remember once a while back you talked about something similar with regards to M2K. How people would give you flack because M2K would just give up but you knew in the back of your head that he could turn the game around off of one hit.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes this is a serious topic I definitely know about.

I don't think you can lie to yourself about this or ignore it. The only way is to accept it will happen and encourage good to come out of it. I would think about why a player, not even m2k, would get dejected. In-game it may be because they can't find an answer, or their initial and backup plans fall and you punish well. Psychologically, getting beaten could cause them to question what they actually know or their current routine. In short it is a shock. This shock can be interpreted positively, in that they need to improve and do better and learn more. It can also be interpreted negatively by saying this match proves they cannot do it. Often there are extra psychological dimensions to this experience, such as having supportive or negative thoughts generally and how that can impact one's training routine in the first place. So one interpretation of these things is that if you beat them, then nothing will change so you might as well beat them anyway. Another that I personally like is if you beat them you give them another opportunity to confront themselves and change and grow. If you're really concerned about a person, you can be motivated to beat them and perhaps discuss how they feel afterward(can be a day or so later).

And let's keep in mind that you are the one playing for yourself as well. Will you give up on your own pursuit of competitive strength give up so easily? Won't you hold yourself to a higher standard, just like you would hold your opponent to? In the end I think there is plenty to do to help those that are discouraged, but ultimately good competition comes from your own desire to do well and your desire for your opponent to do well. As long as you hold up your end in the game, you can set a good example for more in and out of the game I believe.

 

[Plumpet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MqEzF6edM
In sets like these where zain does well against hbox, the bulk of his hits on hbox are from fairs aimed around the edge of her SH drift in bair range. Do you think this is where most of Marths damage on puff should come from?

 

[Dr Peepee]

If your plan is zoning, then sure. I think it's kind of unreliable as compared to movement in this particular matchup since you can still intercept her well with aerials/pivot grab out of movement but dodge her attacks much more easily due to dash speed and hurtbox distortion. Plus you can then add in better approaches which makes your play more dynamic imo. However I suppose you could say that this strategy is harder but zoning is more straightforward, so it may be best to say that zoning is a better strategy for most players in the matchup.

 

[Zorcey]

How exactly do you contrast movement and zoning? I get the impression these are the two "schools" of Marth play, but my understanding of movement is still very limited. Maybe as an example, if you were to make an outline of your gameplan versus Puff from a zoning perspective, and then one from a movement perspective, what would be different between them? Would any of the rules you keep in mind about the matchup change too?

 

[Kotastic]

In terms of evasion and defense, do you think in general WD back is superior to dash back? The only edge I can think of dash back has over WD back is that it's quicker by a few frames when you really need to evade a move and/or precise positioning, but you also need to read the exact frame of the timing of their moves as opposed to WD back being more lenient and more options to pick.

Also in the mirror in small stages, how do you mitigate the fear of getting destroyed by fsmash/DA? While I like YS for more interactions, I constantly find myself getting cheesed in volatile scenarios where it just seems unavoidable to not get fished by fsmash/DA with limited space. Platforms definitely don't help matters, exacerbates the fsmash issue. Being scared in shield is one of the last things I want to do in the mirror for obvious reasons. For those reasons, I've been finding myself banning that stage lately especially against lower-leveled marths, but I do want to make it one of my better stages because I do like constant interactions as opposed to DL. Haven't really explored crossups in the mirror, but it seems like a risky mixup but it might work. Advice?

 

[Dr Peepee]

How exactly do you contrast movement and zoning? I get the impression these are the two "schools" of Marth play, but my understanding of movement is still very limited. Maybe as an example, if you were to make an outline of your gameplan versus Puff from a zoning perspective, and then one from a movement perspective, what would be different between them? Would any of the rules you keep in mind about the matchup change too?

Well of course the two are linked. You cannot threaten with movement alone, you must threaten attacks and can't always full approach. And with zoning you must move to push around an established zone. Offensively, moving means pushing your threats toward the opponent. If you RC Dtilt off of run in sometimes, then your opponent must expect this could happen when you dash in. Then you could mix up with Fair for example. Defensively, you can either use that offensive conditioning to WD back or retreating Fair etc, or you can play more passively and even moving back to encourage the opponent to come in. You could then counter with intercepting their approach or another dash/WD back. Zoning starts with getting a zone controlled. Fair in place, run up Fair in place or whatever, dash back pivot Fair in place....these all set up zones and tie your movement to actions. The opponent must be watching your movement and staying out of the zone you control. So zoning is a bit more defensively/slower oriented by nature as it takes time and is about telling your opponent what you're looking to counter. Zain hovering at the edge of SH instant Bair from Puff means Puff has a hard time getting into the zone without getting hit and must find a time when he is not truly covering that space, get him to give up his zone for an approach, or hit him for transitioning to movement. So with movement you'd do a similar thing around that range but you may be threatening an intercepting grab on Bair approaching or an aerial to do it, or you may choose to let Puff whiff and then hit her. Adjusting your space minutely means you could let her think you would do one of these things but be switching to the other by the time she decided what to do.

Rules can change a bit based on what you prefer but ultimately facts remain largely the same(when your Fair beats her Bair is the same no matter which strategy you use for example). I'm stopping here before I make things too confusing and waiting for your comment.

In terms of evasion and defense, do you think in general WD back is superior to dash back? The only edge I can think of dash back has over WD back is that it's quicker by a few frames when you really need to evade a move and/or precise positioning, but you also need to read the exact frame of the timing of their moves as opposed to WD back being more lenient and more options to pick.

Also in the mirror in small stages, how do you mitigate the fear of getting destroyed by fsmash/DA? While I like YS for more interactions, I constantly find myself getting cheesed in volatile scenarios where it just seems unavoidable to not get fished by fsmash/DA with limited space. Platforms definitely don't help matters, exacerbates the fsmash issue. Being scared in shield is one of the last things I want to do in the mirror for obvious reasons. For those reasons, I've been finding myself banning that stage lately especially against lower-leveled marths, but I do want to make it one of my better stages because I do like constant interactions as opposed to DL. Haven't really explored crossups in the mirror, but it seems like a risky mixup but it might work. Advice?

As long as you have frames to spare and you don't sit in lag when you could punish, yes WD is better. The hurtbox distortion can sometimes be more favorable with dash back compared to WD back too iirc. I do think more Marths should be using WD back though.

I wouldn't recommend crossups in the ditto because you have to cover so much ground as Marth has such a massive range so it'd be easier to react to you coming in. You have to move less on small stages and attack more because they can't dodge and you don't want to corner yourself dodging possible attacks. That helped me a ton with small levels. You'd probably benefit from using Dtilt/WD a bit more so you can hold down vs DA I guess. I have no idea why you're getting Fsmashed so I can't comment on that. Maybe some of this helps? If not we can look at specifics unless this gives you a new line of questioning.

 

[Kopaka]

Ok. One thing I've realized from practicing in this way (pick one move to go for in neutral/focused practice in friendlies) is that if you're only going to go for one move, you've gotta know that move inside and out like the back of your hand. The time it takes to fair, when the hitbox comes out, the effects of doing the move and it missing/attacking, feigning that you'll do the move with empty short hops, retreats/drifts/approaches, all stemming from one single move. Crazy how much complexity can come from one tool...How it can trade with opponents attacks, how it can stuff them before they can attack, what happens if they move in with shield, comboing off the move, was it a tipper or a weak hit, etc etc! It's like damn if you're taking a butter knife into a fight to the death you better know how to use that thing lmao. Maybe I'm just repeating what you said but experience really shows it in action lol.

All of that really effects how and why you move too I think.

 

[peedy]

Is it just me or does it feel like dash forward is slower than dash back when you wavedash back. I don't know how to test this but I feel like it's slower does anyone know

Sometimes when I dash near the edge I grab ledge instead of falling off does anyone know why? I'm not pivoting just dashing near ledge real fast

Is their a good way to practice phantom hits. I know characters move slightly even in a stand still animation but maybe theirs a good 20xx feature?

 

[AirFair]

Is it just me or does it feel like dash forward is slower than dash back when you wavedash back. I don't know how to test this but I feel like it's slower does anyone know

Sometimes when I dash near the edge as I grab ledge instead of falling off does anyone know why?

Is their a good way to practice phantom hits. I know characters move slightly even in a stand still animation but maybe theirs a good 20xx feature?

when you wavedash back and then immediately dash forward, I believe you keep your momentum from wavedashing backward, so your dash forward almost doesn't move your character at all. It's a pretty interesting visual trick you can use at times against an opponent looking for you to move forward.

Not sure if I understand your question about the ledge. The only thing I can think of is that you have snapback of some kind that's making you pivot so you do some sort of pc drop to ledge. That's my best guess from trying to recreate it.

idk about the phantom hit stuff. What makes you want to practice them? just curious.

 

[peedy]

when you wavedash back and then immediately dash forward, I believe you keep your momentum from wavedashing backward, so your dash forward almost doesn't move your character at all. It's a pretty interesting visual trick you can use at times against an opponent looking for you to move forward.

Not sure if I understand your question about the ledge. The only thing I can think of is that you have snapback of some kind that's making you pivot so you do some sort of pc drop to ledge. That's my best guess from trying to recreate it.

idk about the phantom hit stuff. What makes you want to practice them? just curious.

Thanks for the reply. Think it would be a good way to practice spacing if you could get it pixel perfect although it wouldn't be consistent. Also saw a tas video where a fox phantom shined puff not sure if its possible for falco but curious.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Last night I finished up reading The Art of Learning by Josh Waitzkin and I must say that was a very very helpful read. The last few chapters especially helped to visualize and provide solutions for the situations in competition that would give me a lot of trouble in the past. I'll have to read through the later chapters again at some point because of how much information was in them, and it's hard to remember all of the details all at once. Some of the lessons that I learned from the book involve how to handle frustrating situations where it seems the tide of the battle is unfair in your opponent's favor and how to handle that mentally. Not only that, but it's helped me immensely with my visualization to come up with more solutions to the struggles and hardships that I am likely to come across when playing in tournament. Thanks again Dr Peepee for this book recommendation.

The next book that I am reading that I feel is also very important to me is a new book called "Atomic Habits" by James Clear, which will go over how I can make tiny changes in my habits to make big payoffs in the long-term and for a life-time, as well as eliminating bad habits. The book is so new in fact that when I got it on my birthday, it literally had just arrived in the store and wasn't even on the shelf yet, so this will be exciting to read in the following weeks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ok. One thing I've realized from practicing in this way (pick one move to go for in neutral/focused practice in friendlies) is that if you're only going to go for one move, you've gotta know that move inside and out like the back of your hand. The time it takes to fair, when the hitbox comes out, the effects of doing the move and it missing/attacking, feigning that you'll do the move with empty short hops, retreats/drifts/approaches, all stemming from one single move. Crazy how much complexity can come from one tool...How it can trade with opponents attacks, how it can stuff them before they can attack, what happens if they move in with shield, comboing off the move, was it a tipper or a weak hit, etc etc! It's like damn if you're taking a butter knife into a fight to the death you better know how to use that thing lmao. Maybe I'm just repeating what you said but experience really shows it in action lol.

All of that really effects how and why you move too I think.

Yep that's right! And so much more is learned through experience and conscious attention/practice than through words so I'm still glad you went to the effort to explain everything. Maybe it can help someone else.

Is it just me or does it feel like dash forward is slower than dash back when you wavedash back. I don't know how to test this but I feel like it's slower does anyone know

Sometimes when I dash near the edge I grab ledge instead of falling off does anyone know why? I'm not pivoting just dashing near ledge real fast

Is their a good way to practice phantom hits. I know characters move slightly even in a stand still animation but maybe theirs a good 20xx feature?

You may have momentum from some other action near the edge. Happens to me in those cases too.

I saw a discussion a while ago that phantom hits basically are impossible to consistently do given how precise they are and some other changing factors like idle animations shifting hurtboxes or whatever.

 

[Agrathor3]

Okay so went to another local went 1-2 this time so your advice is definitely helping. And I've been working on my visualization a lot, it's actually so cool to be able to see how situations turn out in my head then go play a game and be able to implement the options I visualized myself doing! So question, how do I deal with space animals or really anyone that just sits either on the top platform or side platform and lightshields and shield drops like it seems that my only real option is to back off a bit and if they are on the side platform take center stage and try to zone them out or try and bait the shield drop but are there better options? Also I've been trying to do the drift away aerials that you mentioned to me on people when they are on the top platform but then they just shield drop and take center leaving me in a kinda awkward position above the side platform.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ah very nice! Hope you continue to improve =)

I like faking with SH when they are on the top platform. I don't have to commit if they just want to sit there, and if I do then I can DJ aerial safely. The main thing is don't rush there. Also on YS/FoD you can SH Uair and hit the top platform but I'd imagine shield drop could punish that or lead to some potentially awkward situation.

For side platforms, it's fairly easy to harass with Fair but just make sure it's spaced or you drift away. Again, no need to rush here. You want them to feel stuck in shield sometimes and go for the option less.

 

[Agrathor3]

Haha same to you I still patiently await the day you return XD

So basically what I want to be doing is very non committal things like short hopping but staying in range where if they were to drop I can cover them with my disjointed hit boxes?

Sorry to clarify am I spacing it on shield or spacing it to threaten the space right beside them?

On the topic of making them not want to shield on the platform I could space shield breakers on their shield to really make them not want to shield on the platform

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes but also threatening to go up there so they don't feel like they can just sit without shield either.

Spacing it on shield, but you could do either especially if they don't always shield on platforms.

You could space SB, but the lag on it can get you into difficult or losing situations more often than not in my experience. Best as an occasional mixup at best I think.

 

[Kotastic]

Hmm, I guess I'll try to zone more often in smaller stages.

For getting fsmashed, it's just getting outplayed in a particular moment where I'm getting juggled on platform, me doing a dtilt and them reading it, them reading an overshoot, or me being cornered. I just feel like it's an absurd reward in YS in particular because of the high chance that I'd just die past low percent, to the point where I feel like it doesn't really matter what I do if it's just a volatile fishing game. That's my problem with that stage lately.

 

[Agrathor3]

Okay gotcha I'm going to test doing a dash dance turn around sb just to see if I can keep enough momentum to drift far enough that they can't really punish me aside from maybe taking some space.

Last question for today, I can't seem to make my dash dance threatening like I'll try to keep it fairly ambiguous so they don't know when I'm going either approach or fake one and what not but people will just see me do the initial dash back and then run over me however after watching all of your sets I could find often people won't even try to hit you out of it is there a reason for this? (I feel like I might be spacing too close to them but if I'm farther away then I lose stage control and can't really capitalize on mistakes)

 

[Zorcey]

Well of course the two are linked. You cannot threaten with movement alone, you must threaten attacks and can't always full approach. And with zoning you must move to push around an established zone. Offensively, moving means pushing your threats toward the opponent. If you RC Dtilt off of run in sometimes, then your opponent must expect this could happen when you dash in. Then you could mix up with Fair for example. Defensively, you can either use that offensive conditioning to WD back or retreating Fair etc, or you can play more passively and even moving back to encourage the opponent to come in. You could then counter with intercepting their approach or another dash/WD back. Zoning starts with getting a zone controlled. Fair in place, run up Fair in place or whatever, dash back pivot Fair in place....these all set up zones and tie your movement to actions. The opponent must be watching your movement and staying out of the zone you control. So zoning is a bit more defensively/slower oriented by nature as it takes time and is about telling your opponent what you're looking to counter. Zain hovering at the edge of SH instant Bair from Puff means Puff has a hard time getting into the zone without getting hit and must find a time when he is not truly covering that space, get him to give up his zone for an approach, or hit him for transitioning to movement. So with movement you'd do a similar thing around that range but you may be threatening an intercepting grab on Bair approaching or an aerial to do it, or you may choose to let Puff whiff and then hit her. Adjusting your space minutely means you could let her think you would do one of these things but be switching to the other by the time she decided what to do.

Rules can change a bit based on what you prefer but ultimately facts remain largely the same(when your Fair beats her Bair is the same no matter which strategy you use for example). I'm stopping here before I make things too confusing and waiting for your comment.

Yeah, the fact that there's so much overlap is why it's difficult for me to understand each one alone. What I'm getting from this is with zoning you can establish and control a space, but you need movement to push that zone into your opponent so they're forced to confront you. But I suppose whenever you do that, you're playing a mixup that may not be in your favor because Marth's approaches are slow, which means for the sake of consistency you want your opponent to be coming to you instead, which you encourage with the occasional lunge, which you can then fake and substitute with something like WD back or retreating Fair like you said. So is the idea that you have to switch between movement and zoning for coverage of different options? I find that zoning discourages approaches (because you punish them for trying to get in your space), but movement encourages it because they kinda have to hit you or you'll hit them. But because abusing movement is dangerous because the mixups aren't in your favor, you have to transition to zoning to get the most out of your conditioning. Am I hitting on the right idea here?

Assuming I am, what determines whether zoning or movement is your primary set of tools for a matchup? Zoning makes sense when the opponent either has to approach Marth and/or simply can't contest his range, and movement makes sense in cases where the opponent could camp you or bait out your zoning swings easily. Would you say this framing is accurate?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hmm, I guess I'll try to zone more often in smaller stages.

For getting fsmashed, it's just getting outplayed in a particular moment where I'm getting juggled on platform, me doing a dtilt and them reading it, them reading an overshoot, or me being cornered. I just feel like it's an absurd reward in YS in particular because of the high chance that I'd just die past low percent, to the point where I feel like it doesn't really matter what I do if it's just a volatile fishing game. That's my problem with that stage lately.

It sounds most like you're getting outplayed then. Perhaps you can mix in shield if you see them coming in, or intercept them earlier before they can get it out, or adjust your Dtilt spacing slightly. Fsmash is really good on YS to be fair and I like using it there more too so it's not like they're necessarily cheesing you. But you may want to pay more mind to other Fsmash counters besides dash back I'd guess.

Okay gotcha I'm going to test doing a dash dance turn around sb just to see if I can keep enough momentum to drift far enough that they can't really punish me aside from maybe taking some space.

Last question for today, I can't seem to make my dash dance threatening like I'll try to keep it fairly ambiguous so they don't know when I'm going either approach or fake one and what not but people will just see me do the initial dash back and then run over me however after watching all of your sets I could find often people won't even try to hit you out of it is there a reason for this? (I feel like I might be spacing too close to them but if I'm farther away then I lose stage control and can't really capitalize on mistakes)

If they run in out of dash back then you need to cover their initial actions out of your dash. Simplify your DD. The reason I can do more is because I also cover initial attacks out of my early dashes(usually).

If you're too close you can't react either. Marth is strong at sword distance not grab distance.

Yeah, the fact that there's so much overlap is why it's difficult for me to understand each one alone. What I'm getting from this is with zoning you can establish and control a space, but you need movement to push that zone into your opponent so they're forced to confront you. But I suppose whenever you do that, you're playing a mixup that may not be in your favor because Marth's approaches are slow, which means for the sake of consistency you want your opponent to be coming to you instead, which you encourage with the occasional lunge, which you can then fake and substitute with something like WD back or retreating Fair like you said. So is the idea that you have to switch between movement and zoning for coverage of different options? I find that zoning discourages approaches (because you punish them for trying to get in your space), but movement encourages it because they kinda have to hit you or you'll hit them. But because abusing movement is dangerous because the mixups aren't in your favor, you have to transition to zoning to get the most out of your conditioning. Am I hitting on the right idea here?

Assuming I am, what determines whether zoning or movement is your primary set of tools for a matchup? Zoning makes sense when the opponent either has to approach Marth and/or simply can't contest his range, and movement makes sense in cases where the opponent could camp you or bait out your zoning swings easily. Would you say this framing is accurate?

I would adjust a point you made. You can't lunge at an opponent easily, but you can approach. Just not full approach. This is zoning forward or moving forward some. These things help force your opponent to respect a widening space and they can either let you have it or begin to challenge it. This all plays into Marth's range strength still as you aren't lunging in a laggy fashion and are still playing at tipper+ ranges.

But yes choosing between moving or attacking is important. Moving is more to set up an attack or grab OR provoke the opponent to do so which will give you a punish. Attacking is either pre-empting an attack or establishing a new space as I said. Sometimes you'll do things to cover multiple options, like pushing in with dash in Fair in place to either beat a suspected approach OR give you a bigger zone. The dash in(movement) part should also be considered for how it could cause the opponent to attack first and potentially beat out your Fair. This is why I often talk about moving over zoning, but if you get the Fair out and then the opponent attacks, the Fair would have been more important for a reaction here. So it's not always so easy to say do one or the other, but looking at what each beats helps.

If an opponent is too slow to hit you or just has really bad range or both, then zoning is the answer. This is why I say to zone bad characters. Movement is only used when you can't do that, as you have to begin faking these attacks. You're basically accurate.

 

[Reyjavik]

HI all, haven't been active as much this month but was hoping for some standard feedback into my play. Nothing in depth but more so general observations for improvement.
I've been working more on aerial spacing and mixups and hopefully its an improvement from what you've seen before.
this is from last night:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4iZ0mJPIaY
I couldn't take a game off this guy but almost every game (even ones not recorded) was down to last stock.
I was really frustrated by end as I was trying to punish his tech in place but couldn't. I should have grabbed more for that rather than pure attacking.
I also grew frustrated that I couldn't crouch cancel his side bs despite knowing they were coming.
Here's my analysis of only game 1:

How do people analyze effectively? I'm trying to ask myself why I'm losing this situation and how I can improve but feel bored/unsure at times

 

[Dr Peepee]

Too much shield

Need to be quicker/set up better for platform punishes

Too much Fsmash

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Reyjavik I recommend using FlowFeedback to analyze your own matches, as when you write notes on the vod, it will pause at that moment when the note comes up, allowing you to see the specific time that the note applies to, and then unpause and continue to play the video.

If you want an example, here is a recent FlowFeedback I did of myself against a Ganon player: https://flowfeedback.com/feedback/p8sdhC64CdhXFkT8G