Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Life]

Generally when people talk about option selects, it's a single controller input that does two separate but beneficial things depending on the exact situation you're in. Best example I can think of is that SHFFL aerials also do DI-down-and-tech, so if you SHFFL at someone and they hit you with a low angle move you'll tech (some people recommend light pressing when you L-cancel to avoid this, so you can input a tech separately and not miss it if something slightly different hits you instead).

 

[ikon]

I thought an option select was an action that covers multiple options from the opponent with just one of your own? Like if you ftilt as Marth and your opponent could potentially dash into it and get hit, or maybe they clank it with a move of their own or something - not the best example but you get the idea. Just an input that results in a different output depending on an opponent's action. Not really integral to the point of the post, but I don't like using terms incorrectly, so if that's not correct could you explain/link the definition?

the technical definition of option select is where one single button/stick input provides multiple possible outputs; the output ultimately chosen depends on the game engine, which makes that "decision" based on what the opponent does. it's not just one input covering multiple options

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHHoGHcgK9k

 

[Zorcey]

Oh, okay, so it converts into two distinct options on your end, not your opponent's. Thanks for clearing that up guys, I misunderstood the term. Think I'll amend the terminology in the original post for clarity.

 

[ridemyboat]

Generally, the issue is that you're making a tradeoff. If you're in a position to react without messing up, then you've already covered all options, right? So assuming that the reaction leads to a harder punish, then you're going to want to do that instead. A lot of punishes that cover multiple options aren't the best for all options. On the other hand, picking one in advance can be easier or work just as well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi Kevin, I play a more m2k-esque marth its kinda a little bit of movement base and more punish/grab based, maybe Im just still too new to know if thats just normal Marth but, I have trouble with people that play campy, I just can't not stop myself from challenging them, what do you recommend to mend this mindset/playstyle problem?

The way M2K solves this is by waiting for them to come in, and if they don't after a while he fully commits. They don't expect this since he played back for so long. However there are other ways to solve this problem. Getting closer is enough to force a reaction from the opponent since they can't continue to retreat so they're forced to challenge you or move up often. This means you have to play without playing all defensive or all offensive and mixing the two(even if you're more inclined to one or the other). Your playstyle isn't wrong, it's just your knowledge isn't there. Try getting closer and seeing how they respond, or waiting longer like M2K does, or some other solution. You'll figure it out,

Not contributing anything really with this post except linking this thread https://smashboards.com/threads/ppmd-on-motivation.404837/ for you lovely people in this thread in-case some of you haven't read this before

I would definitely write some of this differently now, but a lot of it is still very good. I hope people enjoy this =)

So I just got kicked out of Leffen's stream for trying to discuss the relationship between option coverage and reactions and risk/reward in chat lol. I want to learn more about this tho, so I thought I'd bring it up on the Marth board. Kind of want Dr Peepee especially to give his thoughts on this.

In theory, covering multiple potential actions from your opponent with just one of your own is superior to a reaction that covers just one of those, isn't it? If an opponent dashes towards you, and you had some sort of hypothetical move that covered every option they had out of that dash, it's better to just prepare to use that move in advance rather than try and react to whatever they ultimately end up choosing, right? (I'm not sure coverage/reactions are even this distinct tho, considering you had to react to their dash prior to deciding what to cover in the first place.)

But that's obviously not a very practical example. So what if you have an opponent dashing towards you again, but instead of covering all their options, your hypothetical move covers all but two of their options. But if they pick either of these two options, and you could successfully react and punish them, you could start a combo that might end their stock, whereas if you cover what are the majority of their actions, you would just get a few extra percent. In this case... which is better?

What I don't know is whether a player should generally prioritize "safe" coverage that covers as many moves as possible, simply because they have a higher chance of success (in a vacuum), or if they should prepare themselves to react to a possible move or number of moves that, if punished, might net a higher reward. Should you depend on your reactions that much? Idk if you really can generalize this since Melee is so dynamic (or if you could just characterize this simply as various options with different risk/reward and probabilities of success) but I thought it was interesting, and could potentially change how I plan strategies.

EDIT: I had equivocated some terminology in this post - amended to be clear.

What reason did you kicked out of Leffen's stream for? This seems like a good question to me.

Your question is basically "is playing for option coverage best, or is outplaying the opponent best?" You are right to see merits and holes in both approaches and that's why you're, reasonably, confused. Covering options is useful to a point I think everyone would agree with that, but to make it the sole guiding principle of one's play is not healthy(even if they're predisposed to preferring it). This is because they lose the opportunity to make big plays or get a lot done with less work or really rattle their opponent. Additionally, someone who prefers reads without too much setup will be somewhat inconsistent but intimidating when successful. We can think of players that fall into both camps. We also know roughly where we fall between those two extremes. What I think is most useful to tell someone considering this is to first understand exactly where you fall between these two poles, and also how to accept both sides. If you can play a controlled game and suddenly explode and do so effectively and often you make your control that much more scary. If you go hard on reads but then change pace to a more measured approach of coverage then the opponent will always be fearful of the explosion when they have to challenge you, something you make more common with measured play.

If I had to recommend a basic approach to learning this, I would say learn option coverage/the rules first then figure out how to break them after that. I'm sure that that is just one approach and as long as people know they need to accept both sides to be their best that is most important to me.

 

[Zorcey]

What reason did you kicked out of Leffen's stream for? This seems like a good question to me.

Tbh I'm not sure. I was talking with like, 2-3 other people in chat about this, and Leffen @ me to tell me I was "****ing ********." Then when I asked him to explain his thoughts on this concept, he said I was wasting his time and I should stop talking before I lost more of my "already single-digit brain cells." I said I just wanted to learn, but his mods warned me to stop being toxic and that he wasn't in the mood to talk to chat. It was actually a really weird interaction, in retrospect. The insults were kind of meh too lol.

More importantly tho, ily PP, this post gives me a lot to think about, thanks. I probably tend towards trying to outplay my opponent more (this goes to an arrogance in my play I need to curb a little) than broadly covering their options, but now I want to experiment with working in more conservative choices too. I actually really like this part about it working well as an intimidation tactic to switch between prioritizing coverage and outplaying, seems like it would work especially well with a scary character like Marth.

 

[Syaith]

I would definitely write some of this differently now, but a lot of it is still very good. I hope people enjoy this =)

This post is one of the most wonderfully refreshing pieces of smash (& life) psychology/philosophy I've ever read. I'm curious which parts would you write differently now?

 

[Dr Peepee]

This post is one of the most wonderfully refreshing pieces of smash (& life) psychology/philosophy I've ever read. I'm curious which parts would you write differently now?

I don't have answers I feel confident in right now, but I've been working to figure this out. I'll just list what I directly take issue with:

-"This is because of partly what Jeff Schaefer talked about. We let our conscious system get away from us and begin making judgments it doesn't need to make. Will I win? Will I lose? Why is that person trash talking me? Everyone wants me to do well and is cheering for me, oh no I can't let them down!

The more you reflect on these thoughts and make judgments, the worse you will do. Always."
If you frame things that way, then I'm telling the truth and you will do worse. Usually. Some people do better when anxious, some people like playing for others and purposes beyond themselves, some people might have developed their strengths through fear and tap into those when they consider these things. I'm not sure I'd say that these things are the overall best strategies for any given person, but they might be the strongest that a person has developed over time. Then there are the first two questions about the result. Initially I thought focusing on the result was ALWAYS bad, but I don't think that's the case so much anymore. I still think people should be focusing on the win, but making it the primary objective might be person-dependent. I prefer to consider it a secondary objective, with my purpose of empowering others and connecting with them as well as doing my best being my primary objectives. That's my best way, but it's possible you could flip those two things and be successful based on some things I've learned, I think. See, I continue to learn that visualization is much stronger than we give it credit for and can really help us create meaningful, empowering emotions that drive the result we visualize. So if I visualize winning and pump up the vision and make it feel awesome and tell myself I can do it, then I create the belief I really can do it, the emotional force that lets me do it and train for it, and the ability to play well in the moment to make it real. I'm simplifying things here but I have really found this to be possible. I need more of my mind to play around with visualizations myself and to encourage others I privately work with to mess with them so I can learn more about how they directly affect others(in addition to some books I need to finish), but this is where I stand on visualizations and the desire to win currently. The reason I am confused is due to my poor health and also not having full information. I got to this point through questioning of the things I felt certain I knew and also a new subject area.

-"Your motivations! You need those too lol. People play this game for a lot of reasons. There are reasons common across (e)sports and I will go ahead and list some of the incorrect reasons to do anything now.

Playing to:

1. be good

2. be stylish

3. be respected

4. be perfect

5. for health(mental exercise in this case, rare for mental activities I'd say but listing anyway lol)

....are all wrong reasons to play. They were also, almost always, NOT the reason we started playing the game."

This is somewhat similar to the above where I think that people can start playing with these motivations being primary, their interruptions in focus are mitigated by having stronger healthier focuses like having fun(that still tends to wear off later). I don't think I'm wrong about these being less helpful motivations, but I probably undervalue some of them in their effectiveness.

-"There are two reasons to play this game that allow for maximal improvement, enjoyment of the game, and keep the conscious cleared from focusing on judgments.

These two motivations are:

Playing to:

1. Have Fun

2. To Learn"

I would probably add/change this part to say that growth and giving back to others are what make you enjoy the game most. That can manifest as people think about it as learning/fun, which is probably why I had such a hard time reconciling those things before. Anyway, when you're growing you're having fun and enjoying the process of improvement, and when you're using the game to give back to others(teaching or entertaining or sharing knowledge gained, etc) you also find a sense of purpose that can be very empowering. Most people don't really think about things this way but I've found it to be especially powerful motivation, even though playing to have fun and to learn made more sense to me and how I normally think. Like I said above as well, these motivations tend to be stronger in the early days of playing the game because you're learning constantly and growing and then able to appreciate the game as a way of growth. When that way gets harder because newer information is harder to come by without work, many people don't like it and those old motivations listed above can kick in hard and obstruct progress. While I'm definitely more satisfied with this explanation than the old one, I feel it's not complete yet either.

-"Of course it helps to have good biological fitness etc to have stamina and focus, but what I list here is more relevant to your concerns and more effective than perhaps biological fitness for us(though working from every angle is most profitable.)"
I have learned from very separate disciplines that your biological fitness is the underlying force for you to be able to strengthen your emotion and focus. This isn't my natural inclination since I'm more mentality-focused, but in retracing my steps of progress I've always done best when exercising a lot and eating/sleeping okay. While I'm still right to suggest mentality is what this person asked for so I'm going to give them that, I must also include that people make their best decisions in a high energy state. You can only be in a high energy state to motivate yourself consistently if you consistently take care of your body. Now of course for short-term decisions or sets you don't need to be in amazing shape just do quick exercises/movements to give yourself new insights and that can set you on a good path. I also need to experiment with the nuances of this and how to easily get people to see something that was also confusing to me at first when learning more about mentality.

So really, the post is still good, but I have some important corrections to make that I believe cover more of the real human experience playing the game. My ultimate goal is getting people to be their best in whatever pursuit their choose so I'll keep at this =)

 

[Deleted member]

i would like to add two bits to that as well.

first, i have had the same experiences with players, both smash (and leffen actually) as well as top players from other games, in that technical play and decision-making was.... surprisingly difficult to talk about. i had leffen tell me that my ideas on how to play smash were bad, in terms of finding optimal lines of play and simply sticking to those and clean fundamental execution. this is a bit ironic to me actually, since 2015 leffen was maybe the most cleanly academic player and representative of that philosophy that i've ever seen. i had a similar experience with ken back in ... 2005? i asked why he would forward throw sheik center stage rather than upthrow like azen did and azen's punishes were way better for it. and ken was a **** about it. so trust me, it's not an isolated experience that is being described here.

i was learning magic the gathering for a while during college, and i would make it a point to talk to top players about technical decisions and play sequencing as well. and i would do this thing where i would learn some facet of the game by studying it to death, and then talk to top players that played out a similar situation differently about why they did those things. and in some cases that was fine, but some of them got really mad or ignored me as well! and this isnt like... a real time fast game with reflex limitations or execution barriers, this is a card game where you have time to consider your decisions. i could regurgitate an argument from one top player to another top player and definitely got some pretty bad reactions from it.

the second point i'd like to add is that a LOT of people use smash as an escape from some real life situation. this can be incredibly toxic because people tend to fixate on smash and ignore real life and their emotional state becomes inbred so to speak. if you are depressed, smash has SO much potential to make that worse rather than better. i get that people play for different reasons, but escaping to smash is not going to solve real life issues.

 

[Dr Peepee]

i would like to add two bits to that as well.

first, i have had the same experiences with players, both smash (and leffen actually) as well as top players from other games, in that technical play and decision-making was.... surprisingly difficult to talk about. i had leffen tell me that my ideas on how to play smash were bad, in terms of finding optimal lines of play and simply sticking to those and clean fundamental execution. this is a bit ironic to me actually, since 2015 leffen was maybe the most cleanly academic player and representative of that philosophy that i've ever seen. i had a similar experience with ken back in ... 2005? i asked why he would forward throw sheik center stage rather than upthrow like azen did and azen's punishes were way better for it. and ken was a **** about it. so trust me, it's not an isolated experience that is being described here.

i was learning magic the gathering for a while during college, and i would make it a point to talk to top players about technical decisions and play sequencing as well. and i would do this thing where i would learn some facet of the game by studying it to death, and then talk to top players that played out a similar situation differently about why they did those things. and in some cases that was fine, but some of them got really mad or ignored me as well! and this isnt like... a real time fast game with reflex limitations or execution barriers, this is a card game where you have time to consider your decisions. i could regurgitate an argument from one top player to another top player and definitely got some pretty bad reactions from it.

the second point i'd like to add is that a LOT of people use smash as an escape from some real life situation. this can be incredibly toxic because people tend to fixate on smash and ignore real life and their emotional state becomes inbred so to speak. if you are depressed, smash has SO much potential to make that worse rather than better. i get that people play for different reasons, but escaping to smash is not going to solve real life issues.

To your first point, the culture of smash is to prove what you're saying when you're good, and challenge those on your level so really discussion is always hard. This isn't just a smash problem but it's how we interact with it.

I agree with the second point, though I would argue there is a potential hopeful spin to escaping into smash as well. By achieving in smash or becoming a leader here, one can build confidence that carries back over to real life problems. This was the case for me and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Did it also make some things worse? Sure for a time, but I feel the experience has been net-positive easily even counting times I escaped more.

 

[Deleted member]

you're also doctor ****ing pee pee, the average player doesnt walk away from smash with a lifetime legacy and a pro sponsorship and thousands of dollars and a vintage ferrari and a love song personally written by taylor swift. your situation has definitely been exceptional (and good for you, zero sarcasm here) but for people that come here looking for real advice it's just not the same. that said, i will concede my point a little bit- the philosophy of No Johns can be a real life saver, and smash will definitely give you that.

as a sort of social experiment, i went to twitch to a magic the gathering stream and asked a high profile player if he had the same experiences, with players being blown off for having no established social capital. to my delight, he answered me fully in the way that we try to do here. i appreciate the idea of making it a point not to be "that guy". it's just better for both sides. maybe it's possible to learn tight technical play from those players, you just have to find the right ones.

 

[Life]

and a love song personally written by taylor swift.

how much money do I need to throw at my monitor to make this happen

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee

First off, wow. Even though this is like "your" thread, I never would have thought linking that thread from before would provoke all of that writing from you. Loved reading that post above.

I have a few things on my mind I'd like to ask you about, or even share with you if I cant form questions from them lol.. regarding some recent experiences.

"I must also include that people make their best decisions in a high energy state." So...pressure. I'm not a sponsored player as I write this, and I don't have the whole melee community knowing my name. At EVO 2016, I performed and placed tremendously better than I did last year. After losing one of my stocks game 3 of last set to make it to wave 2 I very clearly remember putting my head down for a moment and thinking deeply about how bad I'd feel to lose, how I've felt about losing matches like this before..but that motivated me tremendously! I won the set. I had friends watching me! I made it to wave 2, after losing last year in round 3 of losers! Horray!

Fast forward to last weekend. Big regional tournament here, for some reason I decided to tell myself that this tournament is going to be the one. A breakout. Going to turn heads. I lost round 3 in my pool, to someone I've beaten before. No one was putting pressure on me. No one was saying "you gotta do this at this tournament or..." There was no deadline, nothing I truly could have lost for not winning any games. I gave myself pressure. I crumbled under it. It probably sounds overly dramatic but that's how I felt. The complete opposite evo. Then it would seem (maybe obviously lol) that pressures only exist in the mind? But then lets say you eventually start getting really good, you get people watching you, you've got sponsors, etc. You've beaten really good players before. All eyes on you. Pressure only exists in the mind then? (could this be an "easier said than done" sort of thing? because that's something I'd like to believe in but yeah).

Like you said, people handle things differently. It could just be that right now I'm someone that performs better when I don't put pressure on myself for THAT long at least. Spontaneous "It's go time" (cheesylol) moments like I had could get people into insanely focused states like that then instead of "Oh man I've been lingering on EXPECTING today to go how I want it to go for so long, oh no im messing up arrrgh."

 

[ridemyboat]

Some people do better when anxious, some people like playing for others and purposes beyond themselves, some people might have developed their strengths through fear and tap into those when they consider these things. I'm not sure I'd say that these things are the overall best strategies for any given person, but they might be the strongest that a person has developed over time. Then there are the first two questions about the result. Initially I thought focusing on the result was ALWAYS bad, but I don't think that's the case so much anymore. I still think people should be focusing on the win, but making it the primary objective might be person-dependent.

Have you read Daigo's book The Will to Keep Winning? It's a short autobiography available on Kindle, and touches on the mindset that he uses. He says he aims to be 60% happy for all of his matches, and that he doesn't play to his opponents weaknesses, which I don't fully understand yet. I'm still thinking about the book to be honest.

I feel like a lot of the emotions that we go through when we play competitively are OK so long as they're moderated and that we recognize how they introduce bias into our decisions. If a player tends to start camping when he gets upset, then it becomes predictable and easily beaten. If a player spot dodges when he's nervous, then they're going to run into issues in the last stock of the set.

 

[Taytertot]

alright so im curious PP and others if any of you have considered this. Do you think about dash dance/general movement changes in relation to beats of a measure? for example, dash dancing at a rhythm of eighth notes and then switching it to 16 or maybe a pattern that isnt a simple multiple of the original rhythm to try to confuse your opponent? I have a theory that people subconsciously respond well to and more easily predict those who are always playing at a specific rhythm and im curious about the idea of actively trying to change those rhythms as a way to be ambiguous. Any thoughts are welcome on the subject, just wanted an interesting discussion.

 

[Kopaka]

alright so im curious PP and others if any of you have considered this. Do you think about dash dance/general movement changes in relation to beats of a measure? for example, dash dancing at a rhythm of eighth notes and then switching it to 16 or maybe a pattern that isnt a simple multiple of the original rhythm to try to confuse your opponent? I have a theory that people subconsciously respond well to and more easily predict those who are always playing at a specific rhythm and im curious about the idea of actively trying to change those rhythms as a way to be ambiguous. Any thoughts are welcome on the subject, just wanted an interesting discussion.

I've always thought about it as lengths rather than tempo, but I guess technically it's the same exact thing either way. I do agree that players that dash dance at around the same length/tempo a lot are more predictable, but I also should say that dash dancing or moving around in general is way more effective when you have purpose behind it. And purpose behind it has a lot of layers depending on how good of a player you are or what you know (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk09c6iLLdU ). It really all comes down to purpose.

 

[AirFair]

As of right now, my dashdancing focuses mostly on positioning, since that's one of dashing's primary properties as an option. Much like what Kopaka said, I tend to vary length as I move into my opponent's space, so I can observe if they feel obliged to respond in an aggressive way, and subsequently take advantage of that. I'm still thinking about how I can incorporate rhythm, since when I start dding at a constant rhythm, I feel like I'm too predictable, and not able to get as much mileage out of it's more positional usage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

First off, wow. Even though this is like "your" thread, I never would have thought linking that thread from before would provoke all of that writing from you. Loved reading that post above.

I have a few things on my mind I'd like to ask you about, or even share with you if I cant form questions from them lol.. regarding some recent experiences.

"I must also include that people make their best decisions in a high energy state." So...pressure. I'm not a sponsored player as I write this, and I don't have the whole melee community knowing my name. At EVO 2016, I performed and placed tremendously better than I did last year. After losing one of my stocks game 3 of last set to make it to wave 2 I very clearly remember putting my head down for a moment and thinking deeply about how bad I'd feel to lose, how I've felt about losing matches like this before..but that motivated me tremendously! I won the set. I had friends watching me! I made it to wave 2, after losing last year in round 3 of losers! Horray!

Fast forward to last weekend. Big regional tournament here, for some reason I decided to tell myself that this tournament is going to be the one. A breakout. Going to turn heads. I lost round 3 in my pool, to someone I've beaten before. No one was putting pressure on me. No one was saying "you gotta do this at this tournament or..." There was no deadline, nothing I truly could have lost for not winning any games. I gave myself pressure. I crumbled under it. It probably sounds overly dramatic but that's how I felt. The complete opposite evo. Then it would seem (maybe obviously lol) that pressures only exist in the mind? But then lets say you eventually start getting really good, you get people watching you, you've got sponsors, etc. You've beaten really good players before. All eyes on you. Pressure only exists in the mind then? (could this be an "easier said than done" sort of thing? because that's something I'd like to believe in but yeah).

Like you said, people handle things differently. It could just be that right now I'm someone that performs better when I don't put pressure on myself for THAT long at least. Spontaneous "It's go time" (cheesylol) moments like I had could get people into insanely focused states like that then instead of "Oh man I've been lingering on EXPECTING today to go how I want it to go for so long, oh no im messing up arrrgh."

Being anxious is not the only high energy state that exists. You can be excited, or elated, or angry for example. Anxiety and anger are often harder to control when they work for you and against you(anger also seems more effective than anxiety based on what I've read, but that may be an average thing and just vary from person to person). This is why I still recommend having a healthy joy associated with training and your craft, even if you use other things sometimes to boost focus as well.

To speak directly to what you said, pressure often is easier to handle in shorter bursts. Longer term pressure is very hard on people. This is why so much burnout happens to higher ranking players currently. However, we have control over this pressure like you said, it's in the mind. When we stop taking twitch chat and reddit messages and tweets at face value and instead understand why people are doing what they're doing while remembering your objectives, then the pressure is gone. I mean, the force of competition is always going to be there, but you can also choose whether to let that excite you or frighten you. You can imagine how most people respond. Just look at a last stock scenario in almost any set!

Have you read Daigo's book The Will to Keep Winning? It's a short autobiography available on Kindle, and touches on the mindset that he uses. He says he aims to be 60% happy for all of his matches, and that he doesn't play to his opponents weaknesses, which I don't fully understand yet. I'm still thinking about the book to be honest.

I feel like a lot of the emotions that we go through when we play competitively are OK so long as they're moderated and that we recognize how they introduce bias into our decisions. If a player tends to start camping when he gets upset, then it becomes predictable and easily beaten. If a player spot dodges when he's nervous, then they're going to run into issues in the last stock of the set.

I don't like reading on a Kindle and am waiting for an opportunity to get the hard copy.

Daigo focuses on building his own gameplan than exploiting those plans of others. This is because of two reasons that I also agree with:

1. If you're strong enough people will seriously struggle against your plan even if they're putting time into understanding how to beat it.

2. If you work out how to read the opponent into your plan, you'll understand your opponent over the course of the set anyway.

I do disagree that analysis is wrong always, but many people fall into the trap of playing only for how their opponents have played instead of also being prepared for how they will play(remember the opponent is also improving).

I have read many accounts of high emotions of all kinds being okay in play in many disciplines, so I can't agree with your last paragraph outright. I think many people don't accept their emotions and that is the greater problem than the emotions themselves. When a person is fighting themselves and their opponent they're going to be overwhelmed.

alright so im curious PP and others if any of you have considered this. Do you think about dash dance/general movement changes in relation to beats of a measure? for example, dash dancing at a rhythm of eighth notes and then switching it to 16 or maybe a pattern that isnt a simple multiple of the original rhythm to try to confuse your opponent? I have a theory that people subconsciously respond well to and more easily predict those who are always playing at a specific rhythm and im curious about the idea of actively trying to change those rhythms as a way to be ambiguous. Any thoughts are welcome on the subject, just wanted an interesting discussion.

Your theory is correct based on my experience. Changing on the beat is a fantastic way to trip people up!

 

[ridemyboat]

I don't like reading on a Kindle and am waiting for an opportunity to get the hard copy.

Daigo focuses on building his own gameplan than exploiting those plans of others. This is because of two reasons that I also agree with:

1. If you're strong enough people will seriously struggle against your plan even if they're putting time into understanding how to beat it.

2. If you work out how to read the opponent into your plan, you'll understand your opponent over the course of the set anyway.

I do disagree that analysis is wrong always, but many people fall into the trap of playing only for how their opponents have played instead of also being prepared for how they will play(remember the opponent is also improving).

I have read many accounts of high emotions of all kinds being okay in play in many disciplines, so I can't agree with your last paragraph outright. I think many people don't accept their emotions and that is the greater problem than the emotions themselves. When a person is fighting themselves and their opponent they're going to be overwhelmed.

It sounds to me like having a plan is what you start the set with, and if the opponent is strong enough to beat your plan, then you adjust, but that most people are going to lose like in 1 if they can't adjust. I think this points out a pretty big mistake that I've made and is honestly really common. Entering with adjusting as a gameplan, especially against stronger opponents.

Moderation can mean a lot of different things, but I think it needs to be done consciously to update how you feel about a situation. Accepting how you feel about something can also be a form of moderation, but denial seems counterproductive. Also, you don't have to fight yourself and your opponent at the same time since you can fight yourself in between stocks

In terms of reading on kindle, there's also an android app and read.amazon.com.

 

[Taytertot]

i think more about dash dance length myself but i want to toy with the idea that by changing up the rhythm i can find even more success. I feel that there are plenty of situations where the length of my dash dancing would still be effective even if my positioning was slightly different. because there is an allowance of variation there i figure its important to find ways to not fall into auto-pilot esque patterns and what better way to utilize this then to try to throw off the rhythm that your opponent is expecting. im going to try to find the motivation to practice dash dancing while listening to music with a specific number of beats per measure and then try to switch the song to something entirely different. maybe going from 4/4 rhythm to like 7/5 or something weird like that.

 

[Kopaka]

T Taytertot I used to listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tKVe_ohTgY to practice dash dancing.

And thanks again for the input PP!

 

[net1234]

whoops posted in video critique

screw it posting it here too cuz i rlly need come sweet critiques plz help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-6vTeP473s wfs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_nqygGkmhs gfs
i feel like i might just be getting outread so i should probably punish harder. but how do i play neutral more effectively? and edgegaurds

 

[clowsui]

Hi @Umbreon Dr Peepee @Tee ay eye

This has become a lively thread again =p

 

[AirFair]

yo clowsui your posts are sick :D

 

[Deleted member]

Hi @Umbreon Dr Peepee @Tee ay eye

This has become a lively thread again =p

your gay

no i didnt spell that wrong

 

[ridemyboat]

whoops posted in video critique

screw it posting it here too cuz i rlly need come sweet critiques plz help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-6vTeP473s wfs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_nqygGkmhs gfs
i feel like i might just be getting outread so i should probably punish harder. but how do i play neutral more effectively? and edgegaurds

I watched gfs only.

Just watching for ledge habits, last game last stock he was repeatedly forward tilting you or jabbing after you got up from the ledge. You could mix up shield grab since you're at 120+ anyway and go for a gimp. You did the getup into shield a few times, but it wasn't in situations where you could have gotten a grab.

You may want to think about your out of shield options, and how you can play more aggressively. You started the first game OK until you lost your second stock, but after that you started playing very defensively.

 

[Vista_]

whoops posted in video critique

screw it posting it here too cuz i rlly need come sweet critiques plz help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-6vTeP473s wfs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_nqygGkmhs gfs
i feel like i might just be getting outread so i should probably punish harder. but how do i play neutral more effectively? and edgegaurds

Oh my god are you THE net1234? Player of the worst melee match of all time at EVO? I'm in the presence of greatness

 

[net1234]

I watched gfs only.

Just watching for ledge habits, last game last stock he was repeatedly forward tilting you or jabbing after you got up from the ledge. You could mix up shield grab since you're at 120+ anyway and go for a gimp. You did the getup into shield a few times, but it wasn't in situations where you could have gotten a grab.

You may want to think about your out of shield options, and how you can play more aggressively. You started the first game OK until you lost your second stock, but after that you started playing very defensively.

Thanks dude i appreciate that info. I play very defensive against other characters and just kinda roll to center when i run otta space but that doesn't work against falco lol. By land shield u mean like the no impact land right?

 

[net1234]

Oh my god are you THE net1234? Player of the worst melee match of all time at EVO? I'm in the presence of greatness

doublepost cuz my phones ********

thanks dude thats me upsmashmaster420

 

[clowsui]

your gay

no i didnt spell that wrong

no ur gay

10chars

 

[ridemyboat]

Thanks dude i appreciate that info. I play very defensive against other characters and just kinda roll to center when i run otta space but that doesn't work against falco lol. By land shield u mean like the no impact land right?

Just an empty ledgehop into shield, it doesn't need to be a nil. Thats a smaller part though and you should really look at the different times in the game where you had an opportunity to pressure him, but were dash dancing from far away.

 

[net1234]

went 2-3 with him today no vod tho will post updates thanks 4 the help guys. ledgehop shield grab netted me a stock or 2

so hard to find info about the matchup marth side few analyses

 

[Taytertot]

what does it say about my gameplay that i have a lot of trouble with characters like sheik and ganon? i guess i also have some trouble with falco but i think thats due to me not having enough practice working around with lasers.

 

[Life]

Spoiler

On the off chance anyone was curious after I'd talked about Olympus in this thread: I eventually decided to set a goal of making it out of my R1 pool. I ended up one game win off from making that happen; top 3 got out, and I beat the third seed 2-0, but we both lost to fourth seed 1-2 so he got out instead. Just wanna give a shoutout to everyone here for being so cool and helping me think about Smash better!

T Taytertot It's tough to say without seeing VoDs. My shot in the dark would be that your DI is off (vs. both of them) and your movement is too predictable (Ganon especially). DI vs. Sheik is important because she will honestly just sort of hard body you if you don't stay one step ahead of her combo choices, whereas Ganondorf will sort of just smack you in the face and kill you at low percents. Ganon is also slow (by which I'm specifically referring to having moves with a lot of startup and endlag), which means he has to have a relatively good grasp on the way you're moving in order to hit you in the first place.

But you could also be losing to those characters due to punish game deficiencies; both Dorf and Sheik are relatively easy to edgeguard if you know how, so failing at that is probably a great way to drop games to them. Ganondorf comes with the added bonus of being really heavy, which makes it harder to start with the throw punishes that are generally seen as really important for Marth since your throw animations become so slow.

With Falco, yeah it's probably lasers, but there's a lot more to the game than that, so it could be almost anything (including the above stuff). Definitely work on anti-laser play anyway, that'll become vital eventually, even if you only play Falcos that are themselves not willing or able to lock you down with them right now.

tl;dr I don't know, but get some games recorded because that'll let this thread shed light on the problem. Here are some ideas on things that could be issues for you anyway.

---------

I want to learn how to teach people to play Smash well. What kind of resources are there for learning skills applicable to that? The only thing that comes to mind (at least that's directly Smash related) is Drastic Improvement, but surely there has to be more out there than that. If I get more specific questions, I can probably ask here.

 

[karlosxwow]

I feel like i suck in the neutral game against luigi/ics and samus.
1)Luigi: Because i dont know what to do, what are my options? He hits me with wavedash d-smash, down-b. I try
to zoning him with d-tilt, but it seems useless. I cant dash dance properly, because he can enter into my space so
easily with his wavedash.
2)Ics: Similar problem with luigi, but i dont know how to approach, and how to force them to respect my space.
Shoud I play a more zoning game?
3)Samus: She forces me to approach with her missiles, and when i try to dash dance,it seems uselless,because
she wavedash f-tilt until i am cornered.

 

[Zorcey]

I want to learn how to teach people to play Smash well. What kind of resources are there for learning skills applicable to that? The only thing that comes to mind (at least that's directly Smash related) is Drastic Improvement, but surely there has to be more out there than that. If I get more specific questions, I can probably ask here.

I second this question, but maybe for the more selfish purpose of my own improvement. The only examples of "Smash Literature" I can think of are Drastic Improvement and various PPMD articles. I've never been able to find anything else that wasn't more general FGC/Street Fighter focused (tho I enjoy reading these things too), but I'd love to be told I wasn't looking hard enough.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I feel like i suck in the neutral game against luigi/ics and samus.
1)Luigi: Because i dont know what to do, what are my options? He hits me with wavedash d-smash, down-b. I try
to zoning him with d-tilt, but it seems useless. I cant dash dance properly, because he can enter into my space so
easily with his wavedash.
2)Ics: Similar problem with luigi, but i dont know how to approach, and how to force them to respect my space.
Shoud I play a more zoning game?
3)Samus: She forces me to approach with her missiles, and when i try to dash dance,it seems uselless,because
she wavedash f-tilt until i am cornered.

All of these characters lose to moves being spaced on them, not DD. Samus you can kind of DD but you have to be closer to her to do it or you get missiled, as you've found out. You don't need to worry about running in and Dtilting and being tricky so much as making them hate your sword. ICs struggle with spaced Dtilt especially hard but they all don't really like Dtilt and Fair. This doesn't mean spam the moves it means to cover space and options with them outside of the range of the opposing character. Vs Luigi you just want to be outside the range of Ftilt/Fair and then you can poke away for example. If you need help getting into that space you can always do it incrementally, just keep the idea of invalidating the character in mind.

I second this question, but maybe for the more selfish purpose of my own improvement. The only examples of "Smash Literature" I can think of are Drastic Improvement and various PPMD articles. I've never been able to find anything else that wasn't more general FGC/Street Fighter focused (tho I enjoy reading these things too), but I'd love to be told I wasn't looking hard enough.

I think KK has a blog that has him going through some basic teaching stuff, but sadly we don't have anything comprehensive.

 

[Onlyhafasian]

What are the best ways to practice my Melee Marth tech skill and gameplay by myself?!?!

 

[Deleted member]

What are the best ways to practice my Melee Marth tech skill and gameplay by myself?!?!

its difficult to meaningfully practice marths neutral on your own because its fundamentally based around forcing a living active opponent to negotiate you, kev might have some answers on this one.

my stance is to relegate your practice time elsewhere, namely the punish game. when you hit your opponent, Make Sure They Die. no matter how good you get at the game, the punish aspect is almost always criminally underrated and quite necessary to be optimized. this is no small task, so good luck.

 

[Taytertot]

Spoiler

On the off chance anyone was curious after I'd talked about Olympus in this thread: I eventually decided to set a goal of making it out of my R1 pool. I ended up one game win off from making that happen; top 3 got out, and I beat the third seed 2-0, but we both lost to fourth seed 1-2 so he got out instead. Just wanna give a shoutout to everyone here for being so cool and helping me think about Smash better!

T Taytertot It's tough to say without seeing VoDs. My shot in the dark would be that your DI is off (vs. both of them) and your movement is too predictable (Ganon especially). DI vs. Sheik is important because she will honestly just sort of hard body you if you don't stay one step ahead of her combo choices, whereas Ganondorf will sort of just smack you in the face and kill you at low percents. Ganon is also slow (by which I'm specifically referring to having moves with a lot of startup and endlag), which means he has to have a relatively good grasp on the way you're moving in order to hit you in the first place.

But you could also be losing to those characters due to punish game deficiencies; both Dorf and Sheik are relatively easy to edgeguard if you know how, so failing at that is probably a great way to drop games to them. Ganondorf comes with the added bonus of being really heavy, which makes it harder to start with the throw punishes that are generally seen as really important for Marth since your throw animations become so slow.

With Falco, yeah it's probably lasers, but there's a lot more to the game than that, so it could be almost anything (including the above stuff). Definitely work on anti-laser play anyway, that'll become vital eventually, even if you only play Falcos that are themselves not willing or able to lock you down with them right now.

tl;dr I don't know, but get some games recorded because that'll let this thread shed light on the problem. Here are some ideas on things that could be issues for you anyway.

---------

I want to learn how to teach people to play Smash well. What kind of resources are there for learning skills applicable to that? The only thing that comes to mind (at least that's directly Smash related) is Drastic Improvement, but surely there has to be more out there than that. If I get more specific questions, I can probably ask here.

i think youve got me pinned pretty good actually. id love to get more vods but unfortunately my scene only has one person willing to set up a stream and he doesnt have the time to show up consistently to our tourneys. im just a PM roy player and i come here to talk about general smash strategies since marth and PM roy share fairly similar gameplans and most of my weaknesses as a player are general or mental things rather then being completely specific to my character. i havent found a place where people are talking about PM like melee is talked about in this thread so i come here to get some of my deep learning and theorycraft cravings on. lol

id say learning to play a good mixup game and actually figuring out how to get into a players head has been one of the more challenging things for me and my gameplay is probably very predictable. im hoping once the most recent vods get posted i'll have the roy discord look at it and try to bring up how predictable im being so that i can pin-point where the issue is in my thought process during games and begin working on that.

with falco ive got some ideas as to how to improve my game against laser pressure so next time i play a falco im gonna start practicing. my main thought is to watch how close falco is to me when he lasers so that i know what options i have available, i find that if falco is too close when he hits the last laser then i dont have enough time to jab before he connects with a followup nair in which case i want to watch for that spacing and counter the laser to swat him away and if ive got more time between the laser and the nair then jabbing after i get hit by the laser seems like the better option. i just need to play that minigame enough to know what im looking for.