Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kotastic]

Even if you just slow down more and get more time to react, it's often better than doing mindless actions/actions only looking for specific things at specific times faster.

What do you exactly mean here? Are you saying I should create my own dash sets (derived from your explanations) that represents certain actions that could potentially give me cues instead of seemingly random dash patterns only to look at my opponent's cues?

And yeah, I agree that working on stuff like punish game would give me more returns at my level and at least focusing on zoning in more floaty mu's is more beneficial, which is why I've been asking a lot of questions in that department. However, I do have a lot of time atm to abstractly think about the game so I'd like to at least understand that better before I go back to regular stuff. I do believe your ideas are the peak of melee, and it's a real shame you can't showcase it at the moment. Soon though!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Mindless DD'ing is mostly waiting or just looking for a particular thing. So the alternative is moving yourself in ways that affect the opponent in a (relatively) predictable way and by chunking your movement into sets. Tools are tied to each movement, with dash in being tied to Fair/Dtilt etc and dash back having its own. First you must establish your threats, then you must play on those threats to exploit your opponents. This is where intentional moving comes in. So basically yes, but I figured I could explain differently.

The time is coming

 

[peedy]

Out of curiousity what makes your dash dance so hard to replicate? . I don't think its just precision although you are excellent at that. But which aspect(s) in particular is hard to replicate.

Also would you consider marth running up and forward smashing and Marth running up and grabbing a set? Does set basically mean a mixing up multiple threats based on the same cue or is it a little more complicated.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's hard for two main reasons imo. The first is the principles behind it. Rhythm, threat range and connected tool knowledge, conditioning, and....I'm struggling to define the most difficult part, but I'd say it's something like knowledge of movement specifically.
The second reason is I believe that it would be really hard to see as I see without doing certain psychological work that I've done. I could be wrong about this, but I do think that so many of my mental blockages would have kept me from using it as fully as I have if those were still in place. This is also a reason against me using it better, as I still have other blockages.

Running up and Fsmash vs grab is a mixup when you've committed to an approach, which is good, but not what I'm suggesting. I am suggesting mixing what you do before you run up. Standing still then running up is different than dashing back and running up, which are different from running in then out then in and attacking for example. Then when you run in and out then back in, you could run in for a while but only dash back for a frame then go in hard, or reverse that.....etc. That is what I mean.

 

[peedy]

Makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much for breaking that down as far as you did. I'm going to do a lot of self reflecting on that. I am starting to get a basic grasp on rhythm, threat range, and conditioning.

If its not to much of a hassle would you mind giving a couple of examples of "knowledge of movement" part. I'm not sure I quit understand that one part. Not sure if its too hard to give examples or just too hard to explain meaning give a definition.

I'm also not sure what you mean by connected tool knowledge if you could elaborate a little on that

Thank you btw this is the most concise answer I have read thus far on dash dancing. The sets thing is extremely interesting to me in particular. Gonna meditate on this a little more so I have a better understanding. I'm probably not going to implement too much of it yet as I find at my level it seems like the equilibrium point of my dash dance seemingly conditions them the most. Maybe I'll go back and look at your older videos from 2011 and 2012 to see how you attempted to implement those tools back in the day. I've also taken your advice and am analyzing bad player sets. It is giving me a much clearer Idea on neutral as everything is much straight forward.

Much appreciated - pman

 

[Dr Peepee]

Part of the knowledge of movement is about why you choose to use a two part of a three part string of actions. Three parts are much much more complicated than two parts, and thus there isn't really a need to go to four part movements(qualifiers possible here). The purpose is simplicity and to maintain control over your actions. There is a lot that goes into this and I have much deeper I can go into this part as well as others for myself so I don't to mislead with a longer explanation.

So I sort of meant knowledge of how tools such as Marth's Dtilt and Fair may work with dashes synergistically as well as with each other. This is part of why I tell people to learn about applying basic threats and mixups as much as possible, as it lays a solid foundation for the later movement work.

Setting up very basic strings of actions and practicing them can still be beneficial if you're thinking of how the opponent will respond, but yes generally it's more overwhelming and confusing so it's better to just get a basic gameplan down and then add complexity when appropriate.

I began working on these ideas in mid 2011 I believe, though the downside is I became more disconnected from Falco as I was learning about it and more connected to Marth, so I may suggest looking at my Marth footage from that time period instead.

 

[Agrathor3]

Hey guys so I've been having a few problems with the falcon matchup in particular when they overshoot with auto canceled nairs. Basically they'll do it one way and I can usually react by shield stopping and that's fine but then they'll just turn around and do the same thing and even though I can see them doing it I can't really react in time except by shielding which just leads to the same problem until I eventually get shield poked. Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with that situation?

Also unrelated but I seriously appreciate everyone who posts here, there are so many interesting ideas and concepts that I never would have thought of on my own so thanks y'all XD

 

[Dr Peepee]

Not totally sure I understand this issue, but why don't you just do first hit side B to hit them out of the air if you're reacting late?

 

[Agrathor3]

Not totally sure I understand this issue, but why don't you just do first hit side B to hit them out of the air if you're reacting late?

Honestly I can't believe I didn't think of that. Do you have any follow ups you would recommend after landing the side b?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sometimes you can get multiple hits, but usually they will just DJ away and you can chase after with Fair or Uair or grab.

 

[Blackbird66]

Hey PP! I'm not quite sure how to put this into a specific question but I would really like to hear more about your thoughts on melee's "rules" for it's characters. Do you think of them in very basic terms, like grab beats shield? Or is it more like "if he dashes back then I dash forward into fair/dtilt/grab/etc" leaving you with a list of options for everything they could do

Sorry for my poorly worded question, I hope you understand what I'm asking.

 

[Reyjavik]

Hey everyone, I posted in the gameplay forum but it seems kind of dead there.
If people can break down what I'm doing wrong that would be helpful, on flow or on youtube
https://flowfeedback.com/feedback/vTbwdY3fWaJWYHaQv
Flow is great as then you can draw or comment much more ocncisely wihtout having to put timestamps in comment like in youtube.
If not, here's the youtube link. I've been feeling pretty bad about the game as I got last place in my local and just got dejected
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ9xzgIEnx0
Also if anyone plays in Charlotte NC, I'm heading out there for a bit and might wanna play

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well I think there are some rules for Melee and some for its characters and there is obviously overlap. Marth in particular rewards following/knowing rules pretty well as he's a structured character. So in Melee we need to remember to keep it simple for example, and Marth highly rewards keeping it simple so I make it a rule for him as well. For Marth I generally say there are three major rules to keep in mind: 1. Keep it simple. 2. Jump if they jump. 3. Grab them and kill them(moreso applies to good characters, you don't need to grab mediocre or bad ones). The benefit of keeping it simple is you don't overdo it with tech and can then watch and react to your opponent. The benefit of jumping when your opponent jumps is you outrange and disjoint them in air-to-air combat and can damage/kill them off of this. The benefit of grabbing is to have a standard punish flowchart that often works in a variety of situations. Also, saying to kill them encourages you to not just get a throw plus a hit or two but to look at harder to hit situations that come up afterward.

Also Rey, I normally don't look at just vods without having specific questions/situations asked about, but I'll quickly look at your vid. Looks like you need to get sharper tech and also not just wait for the opponent to move but encourage them to move some as well. For example with that SH delayed Fair, if you space it a bit(not hitting them) you can see if you can take stage a bit and encourage them to attack and that can help you dislodge Peach.

Also if you want to find people in Charlotte I'd suggest joining the Charlotte SSBM Facebook group.

 

[quixotic]

https://youtu.be/kVCvLFNaV7k?t=11m41s
After you nair mango's shield here do you think marth has an advantage?

Also why do you recommend using dash nair in place vs falcon instead of dash fair in place? Do you think taking space with nair is better in general?

 

[Dr Peepee]

LMFAO WHAT IS THAT QUOTE IN YOUR SIG

Uhh maybe I could've been Usmashed and I haven't tested any WD in OOS, but I prefer to do the FF Nair to avoid those types of awkward situations.

Fair is better when Falcon is cornered or when you're basically positive you'll hit him out of the air/in his shield/if he's not going to hold down and punish. Otherwise I think Nair is better.

 

[Reyjavik]

Well I think there are some rules for Melee and some for its characters and there is obviously overlap. Marth in particular rewards following/knowing rules pretty well as he's a structured character. So in Melee we need to remember to keep it simple for example, and Marth highly rewards keeping it simple so I make it a rule for him as well. For Marth I generally say there are three major rules to keep in mind: 1. Keep it simple. 2. Jump if they jump. 3. Grab them and kill them(moreso applies to good characters, you don't need to grab mediocre or bad ones). The benefit of keeping it simple is you don't overdo it with tech and can then watch and react to your opponent. The benefit of jumping when your opponent jumps is you outrange and disjoint them in air-to-air combat and can damage/kill them off of this. The benefit of grabbing is to have a standard punish flowchart that often works in a variety of situations. Also, saying to kill them encourages you to not just get a throw plus a hit or two but to look at harder to hit situations that come up afterward.

Also Rey, I normally don't look at just vods without having specific questions/situations asked about, but I'll quickly look at your vid. Looks like you need to get sharper tech and also not just wait for the opponent to move but encourage them to move some as well. For example with that SH delayed Fair, if you space it a bit(not hitting them) you can see if you can take stage a bit and encourage them to attack and that can help you dislodge Peach.

Also if you want to find people in Charlotte I'd suggest joining the Charlotte SSBM Facebook group.

Thanks PP, I appreciate the feedback but wasn't just trying to only as you lol. Want to talk and grow with everyone and I'll try to keep those in mind. Also joined the Charlotte Melee page before posting but appreciate the tips

 

[.alizarin]

is your subtitle thing "building drive" because of kh2's drive gauge

 

[Kotastic]

If I dash forward and the opponent responds with their low-medium committal pokes, what are the practical options to deal with stuff like Samus ftilt, Leffen drift back nair/drill, Sheik fair, etc out of forward dash? I know all of these can be beaten with in place or slight walk dtilt, but how can you beat those options out of dash forward when dash/WD back isn't exactly feasible to whiff punish? I guess some pokes are more committal than others, like I can nair/fair in like Fox's aerials but it's less likely to work vs Samus's tilts where she can hold down.

Also Rey if I can just point out one advice after glossing your vod, the best thing I think I can say atm is to just play longer with motivation and drive to improve. Your movement is stiff and it seems like you hesitate a second before confirming your action, indicating lack of experience. I think the answer at that point is to just play more, question your actions and focus on improving one area at a time. As you play and question a lot, your movement, punish, and decision making will get cleaner. Take this from someone that at the very least has moved past low level less than a year ago, gradually going from 0 or 1-2 in dozens of tournaments to someone that's cracking the SoCal PR one day...

 

[HolidayMaker]

A couple of quick questions on edgeguarding.

I see a lot of success with WD back off bair vs Sheik in particular as she up bs to ledge. However, I don't have an organized system on when to go for this and I don't know exactly when she's going to be vulnerable to it. Thoughts?

When edgeguarding Falcon, what is your general gameplan vs high recovery? I think I see the most success in blocking their path to stage with full jump/double jump bair by the ledge, but sometimes they go so high that I have to cover their landing on stage. What do you like to do? I've seen some success with weak aerial right before landing->f smash back off, but I also see people try and set up tipper f smashes and trying to nair them before they touch the ground as well. Percent dependent to some extent, obviously, but what is your general gameplan here?

 

[Dr Peepee]

is your subtitle thing "building drive" because of kh2's drive gauge

Yeah it's a reference to KH2 drive and also my testosterone. When I fully power up it'll be time.

If I dash forward and the opponent responds with their low-medium committal pokes, what are the practical options to deal with stuff like Samus ftilt, Leffen drift back nair/drill, Sheik fair, etc out of forward dash? I know all of these can be beaten with in place or slight walk dtilt, but how can you beat those options out of dash forward when dash/WD back isn't exactly feasible to whiff punish? I guess some pokes are more committal than others, like I can nair/fair in like Fox's aerials but it's less likely to work vs Samus's tilts where she can hold down.

Also Rey if I can just point out one advice after glossing your vod, the best thing I think I can say atm is to just play longer with motivation and drive to improve. Your movement is stiff and it seems like you hesitate a second before confirming your action, indicating lack of experience. I think the answer at that point is to just play more, question your actions and focus on improving one area at a time. As you play and question a lot, your movement, punish, and decision making will get cleaner. Take this from someone that at the very least has moved past low level less than a year ago, gradually going from 0 or 1-2 in dozens of tournaments to someone that's cracking the SoCal PR one day...

Well let's keep in mind these actions will often be done a bit after you dash in as they have to confirm you did that. So you can often punish pullback Nair with some dash in grabs or Fairs or whatever for example. You can dash in then (wave)dash back early so you have more time to move back in and punish Samus Ftilt lag if you're pretty sure she's primed for your dash in and Ftilt'ing. You could also just dash in and SH just outside of range of that tool and drift in or hit Samus' leg for example. But sometimes, if you are opting to DD, options like Samus Ftilt won't always be so reliably punishable due to worrying about WD back and DA, so you may have to opt for more zoning instead(her Ftilt and Dsmash are part of why I think you need a hybrid style against Samus...but I need to look into it more).

A couple of quick questions on edgeguarding.

I see a lot of success with WD back off bair vs Sheik in particular as she up bs to ledge. However, I don't have an organized system on when to go for this and I don't know exactly when she's going to be vulnerable to it. Thoughts?

When edgeguarding Falcon, what is your general gameplan vs high recovery? I think I see the most success in blocking their path to stage with full jump/double jump bair by the ledge, but sometimes they go so high that I have to cover their landing on stage. What do you like to do? I've seen some success with weak aerial right before landing->f smash back off, but I also see people try and set up tipper f smashes and trying to nair them before they touch the ground as well. Percent dependent to some extent, obviously, but what is your general gameplan here?

If Bair could hit her if she didn't up-B, then it's a good time to use it since it hits either way. Mayyybe if she reads it she could dodge in some instances but most of the time that's really hard/unlikely to do and she needs to move before you do, which should make this all easier for you. I think sometimes if she uses her DJ but is a bit out of range of most attacks you can be pretty sure up-B will come if you come offstage too as she wants the invincibility so that can be a good thing to look for as well.

This is really hard to explain but a million times easier to show sadly. So I pretty much never Nair/Bair Falcon in this situation and Fair/Uair normally. Mid percent I go for strong hit and higher percent I go for weak hit. The goal is to get a Ken Combo vs Fsmash mixup as you land right before he lands, or he just DIs Fair really far away and then has to up-B again anyway. So you can drift with FH or SH and stay between him and the ground and it works out fine. Sometimes you can abuse his drift into the stage as well as that will keep him from DI'ing too far away. Sometimes you need to land on side platform or even top platform.

 

[Plumpet]

hey, couple questions

-what are some good ways to deal with marths dtilt in the ditto? Right now ive been using cc grab/dtilt, run up shield grab on misspaced dtilts, and nair in place/slightly advancing(probably my most common). I still feel somewhat suffocated against dtilt and its threat though, even when I mix these up.

-when you talk about doing sets of actions where you have observation points, I have a lot of trouble visualizing these kinds of sets. Are there any specific instances in any of your sets where this concept is demonstrated well

-when I'm trying to gauge how an opponent is reacting to a movement, I sometimes feel like I read too much into things. For instance if I'm dashing forward against fox and he nairs me slightly after, I start wondering whether it was a reaction, or if he was already mentally committed to that action and i just happened to dash into it, etc. Then i might think that he was just reacting to the position I was in rather than the dash, and then think about whether he'll do the same thing next time, and I'll just end up confusing myself lol. How would you deal with these situations where the takeaways from the interaction are hard to dissect?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can Fsmash around it as well, but yeah you basically need to intercept with attacking first, jump over it, or dodge back pretty far sometimes. It's good in the ditto.

It helps to think about WD back. WD back helps you see what's going on as you're in lag and it also gives your opponent a chance to confirm what you did since it's a bit slow as well. I'd suggest playing around with that tool and seeing what people do, in addition to adding in dash/run in first so you can see what they would have done if you approached during your WD back(don't forget to actually approach in some form sometimes).

This is what analysis and testing help you find out. Take a similar position but Fox is off balance(ex: dropped combo) so he's not likely to predict well and then dash in. Does he still Nair out? Then it supports him responding directly to your dash in threat. Eventually when you mess with conditioning, previous situations, percent, stage position, etc enough you'll find which factors or combinations of factors more likely produce similar results in a person and then between people. This helps you learn how to react to people in tourney faster as well.

 

[Kotastic]

Turns out I got home earlier than I expected.

Is this what you have in mind for dash nair in place? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOlR5qf_k3E

In comparison to shield stop nair in place https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svm4-1lj-aA

Additionally, should the nairs be AC or FF?

 

[Zorcey]

I have this odd problem that I think I've known about for awhile, but only kinda understood recently: there's a lot of "wishful thinking" in my play, or me covering what I want my opponent to do when choosing my plays, instead of what they're really doing. It's like, "okay I've discouraged option X so now I can use option Y when this situation comes up again, because they'll use option Z now" and then they either end up using the same option again, or an entirely different one that doesn't follow the "mixup triangle" I envisioned.
I think this comes from not reacting to my opponents' cues/the options that precede what I want to cover, and blindly hoping my conditioning has the effect I imagined it would in theory. To fix this I think I have to build points that I habitually check my opponent's actions into my option sequences like you've talked about, but there are so many cues and so many positions it's overwhelming. I have beginner ideas I've implemented for awhile, like noting how an opponent responds to dash/WD in from TR, noting that Peach WDing back/running away means she probably wants to pull a turnip, etc., but I'm wondering if you could offer some guidance on starting to deeply build this into my play, because I think it's something I should be doing in every Neutral game position except maybe some really close in-fighting situations where options don't occur in sequences.
Atm I think the only points of reaction I consistently use are long dash in and WD back, which are really good, but only usable so often. I also don't believe I have particularly strong associations when it comes to opponents' sequences (like the example of Peach moving away > turnip pull - I'd struggle to come up with too many more examples), so I don't think I even use these tools to the fullest.

How do you build reactions into your sequences (especially positions where you might not use a lot of movement such as corner)? Do you think you can react out of any tool, but maybe some tools are just better to react out of than others (such as ones that have a stronger effect on the opponent like long dash in)? How many associations do you make between a character's options rather than a player's (how many preconceptions about movement X resulting in attack Y do you generally have before a match starts)? For situations you don't have associations going in, how do you keep track of all the data an opponent is giving you in the midst of match? Do you take it all in consciously?

Ultimately, is it accurate for me to think this ability I'm trying to understand is "reacting to what my opponent does before they do it"? (It seems to me when both players have this ability is when mixing signals becomes very strong.)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Turns out I got home earlier than I expected.

Is this what you have in mind for dash nair in place? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOlR5qf_k3E

In comparison to shield stop nair in place https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svm4-1lj-aA

Additionally, should the nairs be AC or FF?

Yeah pretty much but usually AC FF.

I have this odd problem that I think I've known about for awhile, but only kinda understood recently: there's a lot of "wishful thinking" in my play, or me covering what I want my opponent to do when choosing my plays, instead of what they're really doing. It's like, "okay I've discouraged option X so now I can use option Y when this situation comes up again, because they'll use option Z now" and then they either end up using the same option again, or an entirely different one that doesn't follow the "mixup triangle" I envisioned.
I think this comes from not reacting to my opponents' cues/the options that precede what I want to cover, and blindly hoping my conditioning has the effect I imagined it would in theory. To fix this I think I have to build points that I habitually check my opponent's actions into my option sequences like you've talked about, but there are so many cues and so many positions it's overwhelming. I have beginner ideas I've implemented for awhile, like noting how an opponent responds to dash/WD in from TR, noting that Peach WDing back/running away means she probably wants to pull a turnip, etc., but I'm wondering if you could offer some guidance on starting to deeply build this into my play, because I think it's something I should be doing in every Neutral game position except maybe some really close in-fighting situations where options don't occur in sequences.
Atm I think the only points of reaction I consistently use are long dash in and WD back, which are really good, but only usable so often. I also don't believe I have particularly strong associations when it comes to opponents' sequences (like the example of Peach moving away > turnip pull - I'd struggle to come up with too many more examples), so I don't think I even use these tools to the fullest.

How do you build reactions into your sequences (especially positions where you might not use a lot of movement such as corner)? Do you think you can react out of any tool, but maybe some tools are just better to react out of than others (such as ones that have a stronger effect on the opponent like long dash in)? How many associations do you make between a character's options rather than a player's (how many preconceptions about movement X resulting in attack Y do you generally have before a match starts)? For situations you don't have associations going in, how do you keep track of all the data an opponent is giving you in the midst of match? Do you take it all in consciously?

Ultimately, is it accurate for me to think this ability I'm trying to understand is "reacting to what my opponent does before they do it"? (It seems to me when both players have this ability is when mixing signals becomes very strong.)

Part of the issue looks like you just need to respect that they will have different ideas than what you would personally do, and you need to confirm they will change before you begin assuming anything. So that in itself, even if you went back and played the same, would change your results.

I think adding more zoning in would help a lot. Putting yourself in lag of an aerial or at least committing to the jump gives you plenty of time to wait and watch and also gives a very clear and obvious cue to the opponent. At first it will be slow and very conscious, but as you get better at it and internalize the knowledge it becomes more automatic. It's okay to be awkward at first as long as you're learning.

 

[Sylarius]

I love watching PP's slow pop off after he beats Leffen at Apex 2015.
http://puu.sh/Bi51y/4bef692a32.jpg

PP what did you make of your set with Leffen there? Do you think your sets from Apex are a good representation of Marth Fox still, or at least in neutral? It seems like Leffen and M2K sets have been changing a lot especially when watching them from Summit, but your neutral is still significantly different (or so it seems to me).

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's a bit difficult to answer since I play it so differently. A lot of it would still be the same for me though, but I'd mix in more counters to running Dtilt now, as well as that take/shield Fair move forward stuff.

 

[Zorcey]

Part of the issue looks like you just need to respect that they will have different ideas than what you would personally do, and you need to confirm they will change before you begin assuming anything. So that in itself, even if you went back and played the same, would change your results.

I think adding more zoning in would help a lot. Putting yourself in lag of an aerial or at least committing to the jump gives you plenty of time to wait and watch and also gives a very clear and obvious cue to the opponent. At first it will be slow and very conscious, but as you get better at it and internalize the knowledge it becomes more automatic. It's okay to be awkward at first as long as you're learning.

Yeah, I think that lack of respect probably comes from the fact I spend maybe 95% of my time with the game alone lol. I hope building those points where I'm taking in cues would help with the mentality shift I need when I'm not playing against myself anymore.

This makes sense, because I notice positions where I'm zoning almost exclusively (like versus a cornered opponent), reacting to what they're doing feels so much more intuitive. I don't have a very good understanding of how to zone from more "true Neutral" positions like at TR for example, so what do you recommend for starting to learn that? I currently think of it as more or less discouraging them from moving back with threats like WD/RC Dtilt, and then discouraging them from moving in with Fair/Nair/standing Dtilt, and trading off between the two as you corner them. The idea is you force them to move into a particular spot to beat the options you're using (giving you the ability to stay ahead by knowing how they have to move). How good a basic understanding is this?

Kind of a related question: when you WD/RC Dtilt an opponent and long dash back out of the Dtilt, are you confirming what they do out of a Dtilt hit, what they do in response to your dash back from inside TR, or what they do in response to your dash back after getting hit by Dtilt? Or does it depend? How specific/general is the information you collect during a match, and do you always look for the same thing in the same situation?

 

[Dr Peepee]

So if you always lunge all the way in with WD/RC Dtilt, then you'd benefit from mixing what you do out of WD/dash/run in for starters. Shorter WD in Dtilt or SH backward, dash/run in retreating Fair/Fair in place/etc, and of course move in move back for safer observation. Maybe that's what you meant but I had to make sure. You don't have to force them into you though. If you do force them in that's great, but if not then you still get to observe as you took space/controlled your own. If they don't move in as you stop, then you could even move in again from this new position as an example of using this information.

Yes to all of those. You don't have to dash back at all after Dtilt, as the most important part is observe and if the opponent isn't sure you will Dtilt out of movement in, or you hit them and want to maintain control then you don't need to move back. Percent is one possible factor here, meaning a low percent opponent may not fear Dtilt so much and may not get sent back so far which means they may be more likely to respond to getting hit directly instead of anything you do afterward since they're actionable sooner. If you whiff, then it may depend on how it whiffed. So if they move back and barely avoid the Dtilt, they may be solely focused on dodging Dtilt and being sure they dodge, although if they're more prepared then they would dodge and try to immediately punish or guess you will dash back and go in then. But this is part of why I don't want people always to dash back out of Dtilt since you lose that stage you gained and maybe also set yourself up to be read much more easily, when a small mixup makes you much more threatening there.

 

[Zorcey]

Yeah, I use all of those except shorter WD in Dtilt atm. But okay, this makes sense, I suppose it kind of illustrates how I'm not well prepared for an opponent who doesn't think the way I do. Learning to observe more and more objectively while not assuming too hard should help like you said.

Are you able to check them all at once at your level, or does it depend on context which part of the interaction you're checking their response to? I feel like I wouldn't be able to process so much from a single interaction, but I haven't practiced it so I'm not sure. I used that example because it's representative of how I treat certain situations as "pure mixups" where I just have to guess, when that's probably not true; so I'll Dtilt and dash back the first time, and next time assume they'll cover dash back and double Dtilt instead to beat it. I guess what I need to practice is noting the signs that tell me what they're thinking, like the stuff you talk about here. This is the sort of practice that you do when shadowboxing, right?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, there ARE situations where you have to guess, but often that requires both players using stuff I talk about, or just being in a bad situation like shielding. What you're trying to do right now is minimize guessing and create situations where opponents give you info and hang themselves for free. Let's keep in mind that moving in with Dtilt can often still be fairly committal, so using more aerials to zone would help you control space more safely and give you ways to see things better. But yes, if you did Dtilt you could dash back and observe there, or just walk forward a frame to get the IASA and be ready to act right away. I've found the latter useful especially when I have the opponent conditioned to not come in(you could just Dtilt then SH in place to combine the two, etc etc etc).

Maybe I should say that it's fine to dash back as a default so long as you practice doing other mixups as well and you can quickly discern what you need to do from a given Dtilt instead of just going straight into something. Finding the moments to see, or in your case, guessing those moments would be useful. You could also use the new hacks to see where slight pauses for info could be punished vs slightly farther spacings could be safe and that could inform your decision making as well, since you're playing so much alone.

I'm trying to find a balance in my responses between saying you should change up your plays generally AND you should change your actions after your starting actions as you observe. It's not exactly either/or, but they can be informed by each other. For now maybe there is something useful in here.

 

[Zorcey]

Had to do a lot of meditating on this, but it clicked for me at some point late last night. It seems like you have to balance going straight into options and giving yourself time to change in response to your opponent’s responses (I assume at the risk of getting called out for taking your time). The latter is generally preferable because you can minimize guessing (so if you have a window to safely change gears in response to an opponent you should use it), but you have to discourage people from going in hard by sometimes just going straight into options (in these cases you need to make an informed guess based on conditioning). In either case you should never stop observing, because the observations you get from both kinds of plays inform each other.

I think zoning is useful for learning this skill, because to zone properly you need to understand your own threats and use those threats to keep opponents out of your space as well as make your way into theirs. For this you need signal mixups (where you have the ability to threaten multiple things out of the same movement like dash/WD in/jump) so the opponent has to respect many threats and gets zoned more easily, but maybe also the ability to control your signals to the point of making them obvious for easier conditioning. You also need the ability to see through your opponents’ signals or “cues” that let you know what option they have in mind before they use it, to make the windows or moments you can change to beat their option bigger, and further minimize guessing where it might not otherwise be possible. These skills tie into zoning because zoning is all about observing the exchange of cues and threats between players, and zoning requires that proactive/reactive balance you discuss.

How’s my understanding? Is there anything you would correct?

 

[Kotastic]

What are Marth's optimal followups on PS platform against spacies? I know at low percents I can get a nair followup, but sometimes I feel like it depends on reads on how they DI. Past that, I'm not sure how to properly cover tech in place while covering other options, not mention the missed tech mixup as well. I know I can callout tech in place with upair/uptilt/fsmash, but it relies on a read without missing/slideoff other options, not to mention that if they're DI'ing towards the center then it naturally makes the spacie harder to kill. Are Marth's followups on PS guaranteed or reads?

As for optimal platform up-throw BF platform setups, at higher percents I'm trying to incorporate SH then use up-air to cover tech in place and DJ waveland to cover tech roll away. However, this is pretty hard to do when trying to cover everything. Do you think this is reliable as well?

https://clips.twitch.tv/SillyAffluentCasettePeoplesChamp - How can I cover this laser --> shine option? Afaik, low laser --> shine is +8 or something for Falco, meaning that take laser jab doesn't beat it. Dash back does beat it, but I'm not sure how I can cover both the shine and the aerial.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Had to do a lot of meditating on this, but it clicked for me at some point late last night. It seems like you have to balance going straight into options and giving yourself time to change in response to your opponent’s responses (I assume at the risk of getting called out for taking your time). The latter is generally preferable because you can minimize guessing (so if you have a window to safely change gears in response to an opponent you should use it), but you have to discourage people from going in hard by sometimes just going straight into options (in these cases you need to make an informed guess based on conditioning). In either case you should never stop observing, because the observations you get from both kinds of plays inform each other.

I think zoning is useful for learning this skill, because to zone properly you need to understand your own threats and use those threats to keep opponents out of your space as well as make your way into theirs. For this you need signal mixups (where you have the ability to threaten multiple things out of the same movement like dash/WD in/jump) so the opponent has to respect many threats and gets zoned more easily, but maybe also the ability to control your signals to the point of making them obvious for easier conditioning. You also need the ability to see through your opponents’ signals or “cues” that let you know what option they have in mind before they use it, to make the windows or moments you can change to beat their option bigger, and further minimize guessing where it might not otherwise be possible. These skills tie into zoning because zoning is all about observing the exchange of cues and threats between players, and zoning requires that proactive/reactive balance you discuss.

How’s my understanding? Is there anything you would correct?

That first part is right, but I'd add you can speed up these slow down points with practice and understanding, and sometimes you can know what to do while doing another action so you never have to slow down at all.

Zoning is beneficial for training as it keeps you from overextending and forces you to watch your opponent, while giving yourself and your opponent something concrete(a physical Fair swing for example) to play around. You may also want to keep in mind they can be manipulated by what you do as well, so recognizing how they respond is just as important as their own separate gameplan. I know you somewhat mentioned this but it's worth saying explicitly.

I'd say that's all definitely closer to correct. It's good to start from here and begin building I would say.

What are Marth's optimal followups on PS platform against spacies? I know at low percents I can get a nair followup, but sometimes I feel like it depends on reads on how they DI. Past that, I'm not sure how to properly cover tech in place while covering other options, not mention the missed tech mixup as well. I know I can callout tech in place with upair/uptilt/fsmash, but it relies on a read without missing/slideoff other options, not to mention that if they're DI'ing towards the center then it naturally makes the spacie harder to kill. Are Marth's followups on PS guaranteed or reads?

As for optimal platform up-throw BF platform setups, at higher percents I'm trying to incorporate SH then use up-air to cover tech in place and DJ waveland to cover tech roll away. However, this is pretty hard to do when trying to cover everything. Do you think this is reliable as well?

https://clips.twitch.tv/SillyAffluentCasettePeoplesChamp - How can I cover this laser --> shine option? Afaik, low laser --> shine is +8 or something for Falco, meaning that take laser jab doesn't beat it. Dash back does beat it, but I'm not sure how I can cover both the shine and the aerial.

Followups on platforms will partly depend on percent and positioning and DI. If it's 0% and you're not directly under the platform then they can get out, but it's different if you Uthrow them there when you're directly under it and they're at 30%. You can also SH/FH/DJ waveland on platform grab if they do tech roll, and I list the DJ because you could do SH Uair to cover tech in place/no tech but then DJ waveland if they roll in some situations. Ah, looks like you mention this in your next paragraph.

It's not reliable at every percent range no. That's worth testing for percent cutoffs along with things like staling and port. I'd guess somewhere around 21% before throw is probably where it starts working since that's when you can drift with Uair, but I don't really know.

Looks like that laser he landed before the SH approach was pretty close to you but not close enough to shine. Retreating Bair may have been one of your better options, along with dash back pivot Fair(possibly also retreating), or you could try your luck with turnaround side B if you suspected a mid/late aerial or laser and could confirm he was high in his jump and fairly close. It's not a great position here because of running in and shielding that other laser.

 

[Kotastic]

Why do you think shielding the other laser wasn't the correct play? I think shielding laser --> WD back is similar to take laser dash back, unless you mean that I should've take laser jabbed in that position. Although now that I look back, it did look like the prime spacing to take laser jab.

Example of me missing 2 followups on PS platform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rseN6n8i_vQ&feature=youtu.be&t=8m23s
-I don't think top players would miss this. Dfox said in that position, I can react tech in place and roll with uptilt. Is that simply the case here?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Okay upon looking at it again, the position you shielded the laser is okay but I believe you did WD back slowly so Falco gained more position on you, leading to his good position we were just discussing. Also in general missing the PS pretty much forces you to WD back which gives Falco free stage which we don't want.

And yep Druggedfox is absolutely right it's a very easy reaction here. If you have slideoffs to worry about it can be an issue but you can hit the Utilt reliably, and you could also Fsmash any tech as well for a mixup if you wanted. Don't assume they will just miss the tech and practice the situation and it gets so much easier.

 

[peedy]

Hey PP a few quick questions

1. You've said in the past that when learning Marth you spent most of your time practicing your dash dance. I was just wondering how long did you practice on average your dash dance per day? I know it's different depending on how ya feel but did you have an average

2. What did you practice when dash dancing? Was it just shadowboxing? Was it just learning to react?

3. If you were to lose all of your memories about melee and had to practice your dash dance skills all over again. What would you do and what would you do differently

4. How exactly did you learn to react? Was it just shadowboxing? Visualization?

5. How would you suggest learning to react today in neutral?

6. A smasher named Signia made a Marth upthrow on fox flowchart. One of your suggestions was making a flowchart that included pseudo-combos. Would you define that just as a DI mix up? How would you define it?

Thank you ppmd

 

[Dr Peepee]

1. I was not very good at practice when I was learning DD, so I spent most of time learning theory or thinking about it in my head. I could do that all day. Otherwise I would just mess around with it in matches or occasionally practice it on my own sometimes. Perhaps 10-20 minutes when I did mess with it on my own iirc.

2. Moving in time with a metronome or shifting time in my head, shadowboxing became my primary practice pretty quickly though.

3. I wouldn't start with movement, I'd start with learning the basics of threat ranges and such again. Then I'd build on that and begin experimenting with rhythm and shadowboxing once more. It would all feed into shadowboxing now, whereas before it was all mental and discussion-oriented.

4. I did a lot of positional study so I knew what to look out for partly. It was also from learning about what people liked to do, such as rushing in when you land from an aerial despite them not having a true punish on it. There are other things but that stuff is probably more foundational.

5. Same as above, but stop worrying about super fast and just stick to simple effective movements you've practiced a lot so tech doesn't distract you. People today all get way too ahead of themselves.

6. A pseudo combo is a place in which the opponent can technically act/escape but you either read it or position yourself in a way that they get punished regardless. A pseudo combo can be virtually guaranteed or a mixup then, so it's a wide range. Things like shielding Fox shine out of Uthrow around 30% after throw and then Uair'ing his DJ is a pseudo combo that is more of a risk, while Uthrowing a Marth and he DIs out then tries to DJ away but gets rising Fair'd(though he would've gotten hit no matter what he did) is the guaranteed version.

 

[peedy]

?Thank you for going in depth on your thought process. I have a few questions about metronome but ill await until I work on threat range.

1. Could you give an in-depth definition of threat range

2. What is the best way to work on this? Is it just spamming neutral

3. Do you think a person understands his threat range generally before the top 100 or do you think its like when they reach top 20 or something

again appreciate the replies and hope your doing well

 

[Dr Peepee]

I would suggest searching for my conversations with Yort on the Falco thread as he had me define pretty much everything and go through it already and it hasn't been that long ago.

1. Threat range is basically the pure neutral range. It's the range in which a character running and doing their quickest + farthest reaching attack can still be reacted to.

2. Learning the ranges, then learning to play with the overlap in various matchups and also playing close up positions. Learning what options beat other options, and beginning to tie it together.

3. It's often not clearly thought about until like top 20, but anyone in the top 100 would at least be aware this exists in some form I'd imagine. Learning it will clearly give you a leg up on opponents though.