Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

Drifting in gets you at an angle where if they Fsmash you'll hit their hand since you're lower and you'll hit with the upper part of the Fair sooner. You have to start farther away than normal Fairs to do this. But yeah you don't have to use this if it seems iffy to you. I think playing around with other things we talked about like the timing would ultimately be more important, since you did mix your options pretty well.

Lmao no I never commit to indefinitely juggling anyone. Either get a Utilt kill out of it or get an edgeguard setup. Rack damage early. It's pretty much the same for any character, broadly speaking.

Do you mean vs that Bair? The Fair was meant to cover falling straight down as well as in from looking at it frame by frame. He could have positioned/reacted differently and FF'd though that's definitely a possibility.

Watch M2K vs Wizzy when they played in winners at whatever recently. M2K just kind of does it over and over it's really funny lol. You don't need to worry about Falcon's dash so much imo, but going in on his dash back can perhaps be better if you were to choose since Falcon would then be more inclined to dash in as you come in and get countered by your Nair. Really though Falcon has time to react to the movement in either way. That's something to experiment more deeply with as well I imagine.

 

[Reyjavik]

Peach is so hard to play against for me as I try to keep her close but her dash attack and dtilt are so threatening. I only have played one at my locals and beat them but feel I could have done better.
How have people approached challenging players in their locals? Simply studying opponent videos or watching your own? I can't imagine how hard it is to prepare for Armada for Pee Pee.
My current locals are free and its a ton of fun, but everyone around me has been playing for 5-7+ years and I want to be a better match for them even in friendlies. The best player I know is so good at finding those punishes as Marth and I can't help but just feel so inadquete as a player for only 1 year

 

[Plumpet]

I believe Marth beats Puff solidly. This is due to outranging and outspeeding her, as well as killing her earlier and comboing well too. Her edgeguard could be better than his though. Marth being able to pivot grab Puff's non-backdrift Bair as well as her Nair is very helpful as well.

I agree very very much that Zain lets Armada down for free a lot. He hasn't ironed out the flowchart yet.

I feel like I have trouble using the outranging and outspeeding to my advantage. It feels really hard to get a solid fair or WD ftilt/fsmash on puff, and when I get one of the latter, the followup only seems to be to shark her coming down. I struggle with this a lot too, since she can waveland to platforms -> shield, go to ledge, come into you with nair/pound, fake coming in to bait something then drifting out and punishing, etc. I'm not sure how to best cover all this in a way that yields good risk/reward.

With the pivot grabbing bair, is there a way to do it without reading the bair timing and grabbing her leg? Most puffs dont get close enough to let me grab them after the bair is completely over. I've also had puffs mix me up with a pound instead, which sometimes gets them an upair -> rest. This makes me lose a lot of confidence in the risk reward of pivot grabbing and i usually just give up on it when they represent that option more than once. Is there a way to make this situation more favorable?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Peach is so hard to play against for me as I try to keep her close but her dash attack and dtilt are so threatening. I only have played one at my locals and beat them but feel I could have done better.
How have people approached challenging players in their locals? Simply studying opponent videos or watching your own? I can't imagine how hard it is to prepare for Armada for Pee Pee.
My current locals are free and its a ton of fun, but everyone around me has been playing for 5-7+ years and I want to be a better match for them even in friendlies. The best player I know is so good at finding those punishes as Marth and I can't help but just feel so inadquete as a player for only 1 year

I studied opponent videos and watched my own.

I feel like I have trouble using the outranging and outspeeding to my advantage. It feels really hard to get a solid fair or WD ftilt/fsmash on puff, and when I get one of the latter, the followup only seems to be to shark her coming down. I struggle with this a lot too, since she can waveland to platforms -> shield, go to ledge, come into you with nair/pound, fake coming in to bait something then drifting out and punishing, etc. I'm not sure how to best cover all this in a way that yields good risk/reward.

With the pivot grabbing bair, is there a way to do it without reading the bair timing and grabbing her leg? Most puffs dont get close enough to let me grab them after the bair is completely over. I've also had puffs mix me up with a pound instead, which sometimes gets them an upair -> rest. This makes me lose a lot of confidence in the risk reward of pivot grabbing and i usually just give up on it when they represent that option more than once. Is there a way to make this situation more favorable?

As I just described above vs Falcon, you may benefit from run up Nair in place as it can beat her aerials and combo well. I use it vs Puff a good bit. Mixing that with Fair etc can help start punishes in other ways. And of course learning the juggle will help you get more damage too, but that's its own topic.

I don't know how reactable the pivot grab is, but it should be an easy test. To me it looks not so bad though. Here's the video to be sure you've seen it visually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYCoA6cgwTw&t=87s

 

[Reyjavik]

In a change of pace, what have been people's hardest thing to master with Marth? For me its doing dashback rising fairs as I mess up into full hop at times. Maybe Pivot fsmashing as well. Not only the execution bu the spacing as well for both of these

 

[Plumpet]

I studied opponent videos and watched my own.


As I just described above vs Falcon, you may benefit from run up Nair in place as it can beat her aerials and combo well. I use it vs Puff a good bit. Mixing that with Fair etc can help start punishes in other ways. And of course learning the juggle will help you get more damage too, but that's its own topic.

I don't know how reactable the pivot grab is, but it should be an easy test. To me it looks not so bad though. Here's the video to be sure you've seen it visually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYCoA6cgwTw&t=87s

It seems like you'd have to react to the proximity of Puff for the pivot grab since the bair startup is pretty quick. I think they can still get close and pound instead in that proximity tho, like here https://youtu.be/ndNeSXQd3qc?t=3m31
I guess you could bait out the pound, but pivot grabbing the bair based on her proximity still seems pretty risky because of that threat always being there. Is there a decent way to mitigate that risk?

 

[ssbmDevil]

I'm having trouble dealing with quick jabs from characters like Sheik and Fox. I am aware you can ASDI them down, but I feel like I am leaving myself open for other (stronger) moves. Also I find it hard to grab immediately after, is it reactable or do you have to guess on when they jab? Or am I not seeing something?

 

[quixotic]

Why do you dtilt after the whiffed fair here?

https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=1m42s

 

[Reyjavik]

I'm having trouble dealing with quick jabs from characters like Sheik and Fox. I am aware you can ASDI them down, but I feel like I am leaving myself open for other (stronger) moves. Also I find it hard to grab immediately after, is it reactable or do you have to guess on when they jab? Or am I not seeing something?

Its more spacing and prediction than reaction as both Fox/Falco's and Sheik's jabs have quick hitboxes. Part of the reason these characters are so good is that the tiny things they are capable of doing lead into heavy hitting stuff. Smash is more akin to chess than real fighting. As you become better, more patterns and a sense of the game is given. I used to have a ton of trouble with jabs but I corrected those errors by baiting them out and punishing, rather than simply reacting. Reaction is important in the game but only works up to a point.
Spacing and movement are the little things that make Marth such a good character. Knowing when an option might be tried is great as you can quickly punish that option rather than let that option sink in for your reactive punish to set in. Essentially, planning will allow greater execution of neutral and punish game as there is no need for wasted time in allowing your brain to process new information.

 

[Reyjavik]

Why do you dtilt after the whiffed fair here?

https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=1m42s

PeePee's option there was an intuitive guess rather than a read of any kind. At the beginning of the match a similar situation occurs where PeePee has center stage and Leffen is on left of center. PeePee is pushing him out and Leffen's response is to leap, fall through platform and shine. When the situation occurs at your time mark, Leffen instead adapts and anticipates PeePee by landing on Left platform.
The farther you are from an opponent, the less of a guessing game the option select is.
In these close quarters, PP was trying to option coverage Leffen, especially from previous options. He covers a large amount of forward and diagonal space with double fair, preventing Leffen from moving forward with short hops. Then tries to coverboth a move forward, stay in place, or fall through platform Leffen. However Leffen adapted and instead stayed on top of the platform, rather than fall through

 

[Zorcey]

It seems like there are 5-6 major lasers spacings in Marth/Falco, so I'm trying to look at the positions within that framework. I'd organize them as follows:
- Falco Inside (Marth) Jab range
- Falco at Tipper Jab range
- Falco Outside Tipper Jab range
- Falco at WD Jab range
- Falco at (Marth) DA range
- Both characters outside TR
Do you think it's a solid way of categorizing positions, or it's too limiting? (Maybe just another "if it works for you then it works" sort of thing lol?)

Then I just have questions about laser stuff I've been looking at. Fighting Falco lasers feels endlessly complex it's awesome how deep it is lol.

https://youtu.be/5QZFSrYJmNo?t=1m39s (Falco outside Tipper Jab range, standing laser. Should Marth walk Jab (to cover approaching laser and just take standing laser > play next position) at this distance? Would walk Jab beat an approaching aerial AND laser, or does Marth end up too close to the aerial if he walks?)

https://youtu.be/5QZFSrYJmNo?t=1m51s (Second laser. Falco outside TR, approaching laser. Zain uses dash shield: is this a better choice than dash > take laser Jab if you think Falco will dash back after the laser (because you can WD OoS after him/Fair OoS to beat a dash back > dash in aerial)? Is it worse if Falco goes in right away after the laser because you're stuck in shield versus being able to Jab his next jump?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=2m42s (Falco Inside Jab range, Marth hit with a low landing laser. Mango dashes back to outside Tipper Jab range after about 95% of his lasers in this set lol, so what can m2k do in those situations? What do you think is best for beating Falco’s close laser > dash back? You could SH Nair to beat Mango dashing back and then aerialing in, but I'm pretty sure that's what he wants m2k to do so he can wait it out and Dair him. You could just wait until he jumps in and Jab him, but then he can standing laser you/Dair between Double Jab. I'm not sure how I can beat the dash back directly without a risky mix up, or if that's possible.
Hypothetically say Mango jumped instead. When Marth is hit with a laser and Falco is inside Jab range, can he get a Jab out in response to any Falco jump? Does Falco have true followups besides Shine/Jab/Ftilt? Is it worth it to take laser Jab at that spacing or is it too dangerous to mess with and Marth should buffer shield?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=2m47s (Falco outside Tipper Jab range, standing laser. M2k is at a frame disadvantage here because of roll. Do you think he knew if he dashed he’d dodge that laser height (seems like an impossible reaction but idk)? If he did, wouldn't dash back have been strictly better because it would have dodged an aerial as well (assuming he hit it)?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=3m1s (Outside both characters’ TRs, Falco approaching laser. Can Marth jump to beat approaching laser from far away? I figure you could also dash (to position yourself at tipper Jab range) > take laser Tipper Jab to beat a second jump Falco may do, but if you jump as Falco jumps it looks like you may be able to beat this directly, and at the spacing even if you get shot it doesn’t look too bad.)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=3m48s (m2k predicts an aerial and tries to Utilt, Falco DJ landing lasers, and m2k is at frame disadvantage because of utilt. What do you think of Utilt as an alternative to Jab when it’s very high reward? Here it also looked like m2k just barely had enough frames to Jab the landing laser, but idk. What do you think of standing Jab when Falco tries to laser land in your face? What if Falco laser lands outside your Jab range? Should Marth just take it and play the next position?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=3m56s (Falco outside Tipper Jab range, Fair landing lag frame disadvantage for m2k. Should you still just try to Jab when you have a frame disadvantage? M2k predicts an aerial, dashes back and gets blown up by approaching laser, but is he really forced into that kinda laser/aerial 50/50 coverage? Tipper Jab won’t beat a standing laser, but if he Jabbed right after landing with Fair, could he have beaten an aerial AND laser in?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=4m14s (m2k calls out approaching laser from outside TR with WD Fsmash. Do you have an opinion on this option versus Falco? Honestly it looks good because it's so low-risk versus any of his laser options at such a spacing.)

Finally some general Falco questions: I don't really see much use in PS except when outside TR, because the small frame window+Falco's variable laser heights make it too inconsistent in closer spacings, making it too risky when you have take laser Jab/dash back instead. Would you agree with this?
- The worst spacing for Marth versus Falco seems to be when Falco is right outside his tipper Jab range, because Marth can just lose Neutral if he guesses Falco's option wrong. Given this, is there really a good way to discourage Falco from that spacing. (Just for reference, the spacing when Mango Shine lasers here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfyDXsbzd20&feature=youtu.be&t=2m47s)
- For general understanding versus Falco, how appropriate is it to think of Jab for Falco’s instant jumps, Nair for delayed jumps (such as when Falco dashes back first), and Fair for Marth’s approaches/OoS/when he can't really Jab or SideB. Is this maybe trying to construct general rules before my understanding is deep enough, or it sounds about right?
- Oh, and what do you think about Utilt instead of Jab at percents it combos well? M2k uses it to trade with the laser and the reward is super high.

Thanks <3

 

[Reyjavik]

It seems like there are 5-6 major lasers spacings in Marth/Falco, so I'm trying to look at the positions within that framework. I'd organize them as follows:
- Falco Inside (Marth) Jab range
- Falco at Tipper Jab range
- Falco Outside Tipper Jab range
- Falco at WD Jab range
- Falco at (Marth) DA range
- Both characters outside TR
Do you think it's a solid way of categorizing positions, or it's too limiting? (Maybe just another "if it works for you then it works" sort of thing lol?)

Then I just have questions about laser stuff I've been looking at. Fighting Falco lasers feels endlessly complex it's awesome how deep it is lol.

https://youtu.be/5QZFSrYJmNo?t=1m39s (Falco outside Tipper Jab range, standing laser. Should Marth walk Jab (to cover approaching laser and just take standing laser > play next position) at this distance? Would walk Jab beat an approaching aerial AND laser, or does Marth end up too close to the aerial if he walks?)

https://youtu.be/5QZFSrYJmNo?t=1m51s (Second laser. Falco outside TR, approaching laser. Zain uses dash shield: is this a better choice than dash > take laser Jab if you think Falco will dash back after the laser (because you can WD OoS after him/Fair OoS to beat a dash back > dash in aerial)? Is it worse if Falco goes in right away after the laser because you're stuck in shield versus being able to Jab his next jump?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=2m42s (Falco Inside Jab range, Marth hit with a low landing laser. Mango dashes back to outside Tipper Jab range after about 95% of his lasers in this set lol, so what can m2k do in those situations? What do you think is best for beating Falco’s close laser > dash back? You could SH Nair to beat Mango dashing back and then aerialing in, but I'm pretty sure that's what he wants m2k to do so he can wait it out and Dair him. You could just wait until he jumps in and Jab him, but then he can standing laser you/Dair between Double Jab. I'm not sure how I can beat the dash back directly without a risky mix up, or if that's possible.
Hypothetically say Mango jumped instead. When Marth is hit with a laser and Falco is inside Jab range, can he get a Jab out in response to any Falco jump? Does Falco have true followups besides Shine/Jab/Ftilt? Is it worth it to take laser Jab at that spacing or is it too dangerous to mess with and Marth should buffer shield?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=2m47s (Falco outside Tipper Jab range, standing laser. M2k is at a frame disadvantage here because of roll. Do you think he knew if he dashed he’d dodge that laser height (seems like an impossible reaction but idk)? If he did, wouldn't dash back have been strictly better because it would have dodged an aerial as well (assuming he hit it)?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=3m1s (Outside both characters’ TRs, Falco approaching laser. Can Marth jump to beat approaching laser from far away? I figure you could also dash (to position yourself at tipper Jab range) > take laser Tipper Jab to beat a second jump Falco may do, but if you jump as Falco jumps it looks like you may be able to beat this directly, and at the spacing even if you get shot it doesn’t look too bad.)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=3m48s (m2k predicts an aerial and tries to Utilt, Falco DJ landing lasers, and m2k is at frame disadvantage because of utilt. What do you think of Utilt as an alternative to Jab when it’s very high reward? Here it also looked like m2k just barely had enough frames to Jab the landing laser, but idk. What do you think of standing Jab when Falco tries to laser land in your face? What if Falco laser lands outside your Jab range? Should Marth just take it and play the next position?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=3m56s (Falco outside Tipper Jab range, Fair landing lag frame disadvantage for m2k. Should you still just try to Jab when you have a frame disadvantage? M2k predicts an aerial, dashes back and gets blown up by approaching laser, but is he really forced into that kinda laser/aerial 50/50 coverage? Tipper Jab won’t beat a standing laser, but if he Jabbed right after landing with Fair, could he have beaten an aerial AND laser in?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=4m14s (m2k calls out approaching laser from outside TR with WD Fsmash. Do you have an opinion on this option versus Falco? Honestly it looks good because it's so low-risk versus any of his laser options at such a spacing.)

Finally some general Falco questions: I don't really see much use in PS except when outside TR, because the small frame window+Falco's variable laser heights make it too inconsistent in closer spacings, making it too risky when you have take laser Jab/dash back instead. Would you agree with this?
- The worst spacing for Marth versus Falco seems to be when Falco is right outside his tipper Jab range, because Marth can just lose Neutral if he guesses Falco's option wrong. Given this, is there really a good way to discourage Falco from that spacing. (Just for reference, the spacing when Mango Shine lasers here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfyDXsbzd20&feature=youtu.be&t=2m47s)
- For general understanding versus Falco, how appropriate is it to think of Jab for Falco’s instant jumps, Nair for delayed jumps (such as when Falco dashes back first), and Fair for Marth’s approaches/OoS/when he can't really Jab or SideB. Is this maybe trying to construct general rules before my understanding is deep enough, or it sounds about right?
- Oh, and what do you think about Utilt instead of Jab at percents it combos well? M2k uses it to trade with the laser and the reward is super high.

Thanks <3

My initial thought is that there can't be any one answer to lasers without context. You have to take account of stage position and percent before you make that call. For arguments sake, let's assume its a battlefield without platforms, not as big as FD, and move forward with discussion.
In my opinion, walking should be avoided especially with Falcos. My take is that dash dancing is your greatest tool here.
Falcos exert stage control through lasers so while walking lets you perform any action quickly, it does not allow you to reposition or bait as you would with DD. WDOOS is very key for this matchup as well and I've developed my especially for tanking lasers, it is simplya more safe and non commital approach rather than tanking lasers with walking.

TLDR: DD and WDOOS to bait falcos is way to win match by allowing you to oppose their laser stage control through baiting and whiffs. Mindness of when to anticipate laser also plays a large key

 

[kancon1]

Yo PPMD, what is a back air?

JK. Could you tell me how you choose/chose which of your 2 characters to play? How would you decide whether to play Marth or Falco at any given moment?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It seems like you'd have to react to the proximity of Puff for the pivot grab since the bair startup is pretty quick. I think they can still get close and pound instead in that proximity tho, like here https://youtu.be/ndNeSXQd3qc?t=3m31
I guess you could bait out the pound, but pivot grabbing the bair based on her proximity still seems pretty risky because of that threat always being there. Is there a decent way to mitigate that risk?

Ah I see. The video didn't show the pivot grab getting in before the Bair came out even though it claims that works. While I'll admit I don't know the specifics of that pivot grab range vs Puff floating in, I can say that right before the pivot section it does show Marth being able to Fair Puff pretty reliably out of the air, and that's what I was going to suggest anyway. You could also Nair her for something faster. Pound being slow will help you a lot here. If you start aerial'ing, then she will have to start faking in place/farther away more and also aerial'ing earlier to catch your jump or drifting back more to punish your lag. Both are good for your approach since you can just move in and she has to respect it now. Then she will be forced to play the mixup anyway.

I'm having trouble dealing with quick jabs from characters like Sheik and Fox. I am aware you can ASDI them down, but I feel like I am leaving myself open for other (stronger) moves. Also I find it hard to grab immediately after, is it reactable or do you have to guess on when they jab? Or am I not seeing something?

Yeah it's hard if you don't set yourself up for it and/or don't know when they like to jab. Common jabs are when they whiff an aerial near you or space an aerial on your shield, and also when grab breaks happen. I see if after spotdodges some as well. To set yourself up for it for other times, you can use more WDs so you're just holding down more often(using more Dtilts can also help with this). Once you recognize it more you'll be able to respond to it better and also know to set it up in certain places more.

Why do you dtilt after the whiffed fair here?

https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=1m42s

There are possible positive reasons, but I think it was probably something like I chose the option in advance once I saw I whiffed or I may have committed to it before the Fair whiffed at all. Pretty embarrassing.

It seems like there are 5-6 major lasers spacings in Marth/Falco, so I'm trying to look at the positions within that framework. I'd organize them as follows:
- Falco Inside (Marth) Jab range
- Falco at Tipper Jab range
- Falco Outside Tipper Jab range
- Falco at WD Jab range
- Falco at (Marth) DA range
- Both characters outside TR
Do you think it's a solid way of categorizing positions, or it's too limiting? (Maybe just another "if it works for you then it works" sort of thing lol?)

Then I just have questions about laser stuff I've been looking at. Fighting Falco lasers feels endlessly complex it's awesome how deep it is lol.

https://youtu.be/5QZFSrYJmNo?t=1m39s (Falco outside Tipper Jab range, standing laser. Should Marth walk Jab (to cover approaching laser and just take standing laser > play next position) at this distance? Would walk Jab beat an approaching aerial AND laser, or does Marth end up too close to the aerial if he walks?)

https://youtu.be/5QZFSrYJmNo?t=1m51s (Second laser. Falco outside TR, approaching laser. Zain uses dash shield: is this a better choice than dash > take laser Jab if you think Falco will dash back after the laser (because you can WD OoS after him/Fair OoS to beat a dash back > dash in aerial)? Is it worse if Falco goes in right away after the laser because you're stuck in shield versus being able to Jab his next jump?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=2m42s (Falco Inside Jab range, Marth hit with a low landing laser. Mango dashes back to outside Tipper Jab range after about 95% of his lasers in this set lol, so what can m2k do in those situations? What do you think is best for beating Falco’s close laser > dash back? You could SH Nair to beat Mango dashing back and then aerialing in, but I'm pretty sure that's what he wants m2k to do so he can wait it out and Dair him. You could just wait until he jumps in and Jab him, but then he can standing laser you/Dair between Double Jab. I'm not sure how I can beat the dash back directly without a risky mix up, or if that's possible.
Hypothetically say Mango jumped instead. When Marth is hit with a laser and Falco is inside Jab range, can he get a Jab out in response to any Falco jump? Does Falco have true followups besides Shine/Jab/Ftilt? Is it worth it to take laser Jab at that spacing or is it too dangerous to mess with and Marth should buffer shield?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=2m47s (Falco outside Tipper Jab range, standing laser. M2k is at a frame disadvantage here because of roll. Do you think he knew if he dashed he’d dodge that laser height (seems like an impossible reaction but idk)? If he did, wouldn't dash back have been strictly better because it would have dodged an aerial as well (assuming he hit it)?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=3m1s (Outside both characters’ TRs, Falco approaching laser. Can Marth jump to beat approaching laser from far away? I figure you could also dash (to position yourself at tipper Jab range) > take laser Tipper Jab to beat a second jump Falco may do, but if you jump as Falco jumps it looks like you may be able to beat this directly, and at the spacing even if you get shot it doesn’t look too bad.)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=3m48s (m2k predicts an aerial and tries to Utilt, Falco DJ landing lasers, and m2k is at frame disadvantage because of utilt. What do you think of Utilt as an alternative to Jab when it’s very high reward? Here it also looked like m2k just barely had enough frames to Jab the landing laser, but idk. What do you think of standing Jab when Falco tries to laser land in your face? What if Falco laser lands outside your Jab range? Should Marth just take it and play the next position?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=3m56s (Falco outside Tipper Jab range, Fair landing lag frame disadvantage for m2k. Should you still just try to Jab when you have a frame disadvantage? M2k predicts an aerial, dashes back and gets blown up by approaching laser, but is he really forced into that kinda laser/aerial 50/50 coverage? Tipper Jab won’t beat a standing laser, but if he Jabbed right after landing with Fair, could he have beaten an aerial AND laser in?)

https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=4m14s (m2k calls out approaching laser from outside TR with WD Fsmash. Do you have an opinion on this option versus Falco? Honestly it looks good because it's so low-risk versus any of his laser options at such a spacing.)

Finally some general Falco questions: I don't really see much use in PS except when outside TR, because the small frame window+Falco's variable laser heights make it too inconsistent in closer spacings, making it too risky when you have take laser Jab/dash back instead. Would you agree with this?
- The worst spacing for Marth versus Falco seems to be when Falco is right outside his tipper Jab range, because Marth can just lose Neutral if he guesses Falco's option wrong. Given this, is there really a good way to discourage Falco from that spacing. (Just for reference, the spacing when Mango Shine lasers here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfyDXsbzd20&feature=youtu.be&t=2m47s)
- For general understanding versus Falco, how appropriate is it to think of Jab for Falco’s instant jumps, Nair for delayed jumps (such as when Falco dashes back first), and Fair for Marth’s approaches/OoS/when he can't really Jab or SideB. Is this maybe trying to construct general rules before my understanding is deep enough, or it sounds about right?
- Oh, and what do you think about Utilt instead of Jab at percents it combos well? M2k uses it to trade with the laser and the reward is super high.

Thanks <3

DA and WD Jab range seem similar? I guess WD is variable and so is DA depending on far you run....besides that it seems alright.

Assuming you mean after laser hits, then walk jab would be slightly risky vs rising Dair I think? You can't walk too far before you jab here you have to pretty much instantly jab. If you mean walk before laser jab after, then you risk not being spaced far enough to get tipper jab out in time if he instant Nair/Dairs for sure. Because he SH'd just before this position he kind of confines himself to this spot so he just has to either do a PS play or guess the laser height and go under/over or stay right about there and take laser and move from there imo. If his reactions are suuuper good he might be able to dash side B on reaction to laser startup(dash in response to shield or to move in as Falco lands), especially since Wes did shield before lasering, which means he wouldn't be able to dash SH aerial.

From that position no because he is now too close. But if you mean what if you just got into good position for take laser jab then it's a more nuanced question. Dash in PS I'm not sure how reliable it is but that's a pretty good laser height for PS. However since dash in PS isn't super reliable you could get stuck shielding in front of Falco which is the worst position for Marth so to me it feels like a crazy gamble(you either PS grab or you get bodied in shield). So I would prefer the take laser jab or dash back position, or some other play to get around the laser such as ZPS if you did dash in.

This is easily one of Falco's best plays, and really hard for any character to deal with. Dash side B is possible if you don't think Falco will hold down(most won't). If Falco is normally just waiting you can begin to set up your own movement here or begin Fair'ing him, perhaps dashing in and retreating Fair if you're worried. Keep in mind that Mango has been forced to wait this many dash reps because M2K has been doing those Nairs etc to beat single and sometimes double dash back, so this does open up regular movement around the slower character. However it's still really hard to react to when Falco lands such a close laser, usually it's slightly farther away which makes the situation easier. M2K's crouch is interesting here as it could definitely dodge crossup attempts or make it easier to shield them anyway and if he gets grabbed he can just prime for that. Not sure how I feel about giving up movement here for it, but it's worth considering.
Hitting Falco with weak jab here is so bad. I do not recommend it even if you could hit Falco out of the air really. You just have to guess and maybe try to run under an aerial or away from a grab or shield an Ftilt/jab and prime for SDI on Uthrow or something like that. Oh yeah WD can be okay because you're holding down but also moving. It's just a bad position.

M2K probably knows Mango's habits here so he would be primed for this laser. He may also know about how high Mango regularly shoots. Dashing in could help him go under laser and past any immediate SH aerial attempt which M2K could dash back in and grab. But the laser reaction(that it's coming out) is easy at any rate since he's in roll lag and laser has a lot of startup. He also has to worry about Mango doing deep lasers in instead, and he doesn't seem to reliably counter those so going in where he could run back and beat any approach would just be easier. Dash back is still a fine option here.

Yeah you could jump to beat Falco here. It's a reasonable reaction, and if you're getting kind of mixed up like M2K would be then it's even more feasible to set up PS or take laser jab/dash here. Keep in mind Falco can DJ here even if it is pretty risky. I'd definitely recommend experimenting here.

First of all, that Utilt would've straight up lost to aerial lol. Utilt doesn't beat Dair so cleanly like jab does iirc but it can beat Nair I think so you're gambling more there. That said if you think it'll be Nair or they will laser again instead of waiting then hitting you, then Utilt is probably more okay to go for. If Falco lands outside of your jab position with laser then you can often see it coming and either sneak DA under or Fair him or PS but assuming you don't then yeah just play the next position as if he was grounded.

Lol M2K really falling apart here, that Fair was so scrubby. Impossible to land and just put him in lag. He should have maybe jabbed(might have been okay here since Falco was peak of SH and a little spaced) or side B'd. Actually looking again, jab was terrible(too close) but dash back PS would've been cool since it's so last-second. Should have been a decent reaction. Jab would definitely have lost to Dair/Nair here if you go frame by frame.

I don't really like how M2K used it, but yes this is a fine option. I can't believe I forgot to mention it until now, but Fsmash/Ftilt can be great at hitting lasers just past the range jab hits, and you can sometimes walk into perfect spaces for them if Falco wants to position a little farther away. WD Fsmash itself is useful in times where Falco is off balance/hasn't had a laser out and you want to stuff the startup or him moving back. Taking advantage of Falco not wanting to shield is great in this matchup. Then if WD/dash in and he shields then it's party time.

You have plenty of frames to make it consistent except vs low lasers with dash back/crouch PS, and if you're using dash back PS then even low lasers are pretty reliable to PS. Standing still/running in PS I don't like for how unreliable they seem. ZPS should resolve this though but I haven't practiced it. CC laser is also worth using btw. Also, I did not really know of this or forgot it, but on Bird Call Ginger and Druggedfox discuss a mid laser height that hits Marth in dash and SH AND Falco can SH over the PS'd laser and attack. Now if you can PS well you could probably PS WD back or PS SH and do a lot of option coverage with it, but that's future stuff. For now, if you can PS you'll probably be in good shape and I do think it's reliable. You just need to practice and do techniques to make it easier so you're not getting stuck in shield. If you haven't practiced it though, then yeah don't do much PS and instead focus on take laser/jump over/CC laser and do plays.

Experiment with the Ftilt/Fsmash/dash side B(first hit or first three depending on how close you get) and see if you still feel that way. Also remember M2K was coming out of roll so he couldn't influence the spacing before laser which is very important. If he does get the laser off here then yeah it's tough but you can also react to aerial in here and can even laser SDI back for a bit of extra leeway in punishing the aerial.

Jab doesn't work on instant jumps when close, Nair can also work on instant jumps but is slower, Fair can work on jumps too but is far more committal and slower than Nair. So I'd say a bit of what you said is true, but given you can Nair over lasers and other variables I wouldn't say this rule as you have it works too well.

Yo PPMD, what is a back air?

JK. Could you tell me how you choose/chose which of your 2 characters to play? How would you decide whether to play Marth or Falco at any given moment?

Lol suh

I chose these two characters because they were coolest at the time and I was inspired by Shiz/M2K. I also didn't want to go super sellout and pick Fox lol. Now I just feel a connection to both characters and I also want to prove they can do it. In the past, I chose Marth when I was falling more depressed as he can be slower and Falco when I was more energetic, or just needed a change. I might also just pick Falco vs Falcon since that matchup is way easier. I also just know all of Falco's matchups but not all of Marth's. My reasoning for picking them will change after I'm better though =p

 

[quixotic]

After marth whiffs late fair it takes 6 frames before you can confirm that you hit/missed(assuming you spend 2 frames in the air before landing and 15 frame reaction time).
If you hit the fair those frames occur during hitlag so you can confirm.

Maybe with audio cues which occur for hitting fair you can react a little faster, but in general I feel like you need to be preemptive after whiffing an aerial. Do you think it’s that bad to dtilt or dash back or shield after whiffing fair? Would just waiting a few frames be a better default option?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I can be more sure about what will happen based on their movements and also conditioning, and I also can have practiced the situation enough to lower my reaction time as well. Of course sometimes their conditioning will lower your own reaction time. So between that and what you said, I'd say sometimes you can react and sometimes you can't. Usually I can be pretty sure when I'll miss though, because people often don't accidentally run into Fair so it's often pretty deliberate. Anyway, I think doing some quick Dtilt/dash back/rising Fair/occasional shield can be okay after Fair, but I think confirming during whiffing and landing lag(and hitlag if present) is often enough for me personally.

 

[Zorcey]

DA and WD Jab range seem similar? I guess WD is variable and so is DA depending on far you run....besides that it seems alright.

Yeah, I thought the same thing about WD Jab/DA range. so I was like "5-6 idk." Tbh it's likely because I'm quite sure how WD Jab fits into Marth's game yet. Could it cover a laser/aerial approaching from Falco when he's at DA range?

Assuming you mean after laser hits, then walk jab would be slightly risky vs rising Dair I think? You can't walk too far before you jab here you have to pretty much instantly jab. If you mean walk before laser jab after, then you risk not being spaced far enough to get tipper jab out in time if he instant Nair/Dairs for sure. Because he SH'd just before this position he kind of confines himself to this spot so he just has to either do a PS play or guess the laser height and go under/over or stay right about there and take laser and move from there imo. If his reactions are suuuper good he might be able to dash side B on reaction to laser startup(dash in response to shield or to move in as Falco lands), especially since Wes did shield before lasering, which means he wouldn't be able to dash SH aerial.

Do you think walk > take laser Jab is generally too risky when Falco's outside Tipper Jab range, or just because Zain got into this position from SH? The spacing looks too far for regular take laser Jab, so I was wondering if it was possible to use the laser to help Marth reposition for Tipper Jab, or if the laser stun was too great. I really like the SideB idea, it didn't occur to me to use the landing/shield to make the reaction possible.

From that position no because he is now too close. But if you mean what if you just got into good position for take laser jab then it's a more nuanced question. Dash in PS I'm not sure how reliable it is but that's a pretty good laser height for PS. However since dash in PS isn't super reliable you could get stuck shielding in front of Falco which is the worst position for Marth so to me it feels like a crazy gamble(you either PS grab or you get bodied in shield). So I would prefer the take laser jab or dash back position, or some other play to get around the laser such as ZPS if you did dash in.

You would take laser Jab/dash back from where Zain was standing before the dash in PS, or you would dash in > take laser Jab/dash back? It sounds like you wouldn't have dashed in at all, but it seems like you'd be too far in that case, so idk if I'm missing something/misunderstanding. (https://youtu.be/5QZFSrYJmNo?t=1m54s frame linked: Zain's position versus the position of his dust cloud)

This is easily one of Falco's best plays, and really hard for any character to deal with. Dash side B is possible if you don't think Falco will hold down(most won't). If Falco is normally just waiting you can begin to set up your own movement here or begin Fair'ing him, perhaps dashing in and retreating Fair if you're worried. Keep in mind that Mango has been forced to wait this many dash reps because M2K has been doing those Nairs etc to beat single and sometimes double dash back, so this does open up regular movement around the slower character. However it's still really hard to react to when Falco lands such a close laser, usually it's slightly farther away which makes the situation easier. M2K's crouch is interesting here as it could definitely dodge crossup attempts or make it easier to shield them anyway and if he gets grabbed he can just prime for that. Not sure how I feel about giving up movement here for it, but it's worth considering.
Hitting Falco with weak jab here is so bad. I do not recommend it even if you could hit Falco out of the air really. You just have to guess and maybe try to run under an aerial or away from a grab or shield an Ftilt/jab and prime for SDI on Uthrow or something like that. Oh yeah WD can be okay because you're holding down but also moving. It's just a bad position.

I see, so a good plan for the position seems like going for the Nair first (since most Falcos will likely need to be conditioned before they stop going for the single DD rep > Dair), and then setting up a DD/dash in retreating Fair to beat greater delays they're conditioned into. The crouch confuses me though: couldn't M2K just use fadeback Fair/Nair to beat those crossups with higher reward?
Ah okay. Are there any positions that come to mind where you would recommend Marth's weak Jab (besides like, covering SideB), or nah? Maybe if Falco tries to laser land right in front of you?

Lol M2K really falling apart here, that Fair was so scrubby. Impossible to land and just put him in lag. He should have maybe jabbed(might have been okay here since Falco was peak of SH and a little spaced) or side B'd. Actually looking again, jab was terrible(too close) but dash back PS would've been cool since it's so last-second. Should have been a decent reaction. Jab would definitely have lost to Dair/Nair here if you go frame by frame.

Oh yeah, you rite lol. It looks like this spacing would have been good for Jab if M2K wasn't in lag though? Just looking at the spacing itself, if both characters were in stand, Marth could beat Falco jumping in with Jab, which Falco could beat with standing laser, which Marth could beat with dash SideB, etc? Could you react to laser in place vs laser approach from this spacing, you think? (frame linked: https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=3m56s)

I don't really like how M2K used it, but yes this is a fine option. I can't believe I forgot to mention it until now, but Fsmash/Ftilt can be great at hitting lasers just past the range jab hits, and you can sometimes walk into perfect spaces for them if Falco wants to position a little farther away. WD Fsmash itself is useful in times where Falco is off balance/hasn't had a laser out and you want to stuff the startup or him moving back. Taking advantage of Falco not wanting to shield is great in this matchup. Then if WD/dash in and he shields then it's party time.

What don't you like about it? Mango's percent/how M2K followed up, or the position/how he made the play? And oooh okay I haven't thought about these much, but Ftilt/Fsmash sound great. Would you use Ftilt the same way you use Jab (to catch approaching jumps) but like, for a spacing between Jab distance and aerial distance? Or more for hitting Falco's laser/aerial in place? Or both? (Also, how appropriate is thinking of Fsmash as a higher-risk/higher-reward Ftilt? They're similar tools, but idk.)

You have plenty of frames to make it consistent except vs low lasers with dash back/crouch PS, and if you're using dash back PS then even low lasers are pretty reliable to PS. Standing still/running in PS I don't like for how unreliable they seem. ZPS should resolve this though but I haven't practiced it. CC laser is also worth using btw. Also, I did not really know of this or forgot it, but on Bird Call Ginger and Druggedfox discuss a mid laser height that hits Marth in dash and SH AND Falco can SH over the PS'd laser and attack. Now if you can PS well you could probably PS WD back or PS SH and do a lot of option coverage with it, but that's future stuff. For now, if you can PS you'll probably be in good shape and I do think it's reliable. You just need to practice and do techniques to make it easier so you're not getting stuck in shield. If you haven't practiced it though, then yeah don't do much PS and instead focus on take laser/jump over/CC laser and do plays.

Hm, okay, I probably just need to play with/analyze the tool some more, you're right. Yeah, I heard about that same laser height recently lol, it's really cool. When you say "do techniques to make it easier so you're not getting stuck in shield" do you mean practice sequences with PS to make the execution easier on the body? That makes sense, but I wanted to clarify/ask what you had in mind.

Jab doesn't work on instant jumps when close, Nair can also work on instant jumps but is slower, Fair can work on jumps too but is far more committal and slower than Nair. So I'd say a bit of what you said is true, but given you can Nair over lasers and other variables I wouldn't say this rule as you have it works too well.

Okay, clearly I have to study the tools a lot more in that case. How do you like to distinguish their uses, if you could give me something to get me started? There's this weird paradox where learning positions in a matchup is much easier when I know what my tools are good for, but to know what my tools are good for in a matchup I have to know positions well lol. I can list off a tool's properties, but when multiple tools share properties or can cover the same thing (like Fair and Nair), things get very murky to me.

 

[Dr Peepee]

WD jab can beat laser of course, but generally I use it for lasers in place or mostly in place. I guess it could beat like dash back aerials in or something but I don't think I'd try it at that point.

If you want to be in range to hit jab after laser hits, you lose to immediate aerial free. It's not even close. Jab only tippers after laser when it's outside of immediate tipper range. You can walk jab to hit before the laser comes out or even trade with the laser, but otherwise once it's out you're in a worse position there.

Yeah if I was going to dash in, I'd only do it at the last second so I could get a bit closer to beat any aerial with jab/dash back. So what I would do, from Zain's dash back, is firstly notice I couldn't hit his laser out of the air anymore. So I could either try and Nair over it, or use dash back PS(or ZPS but idk that yet), or dash in kind of late so I'm in prime take laser jab/dash back position.

M2K doesn't just want to dash back every time, as that can make approaches easier and also it means lasering is free stage since the Marth will back up a lot. I'd test out the Nair vs irl Falcos and see how it feels, since Falcos today could vary a bit more than past ones and may be a bit more patient by default in the matchup now. Weak jab is really only possibly useful if Falco goes in with a fully committal laser approach and you hit him out of the height of his jump I think. I wouldn't call it the preferred solution but it's not bad in certain spacings/percents.

A bit hard to accurately assess the position as Mango has left the ground by the time M2K lands. But Mango is probably just outside of jab range as M2K lands so jab could probably hit him coming in. However this is after laser, and if there is no laser out then it's easier to outspace since Falco has no frame advantage, but the timing is no longer set either. If there is no laser out you don't need to jab though and can just use movement/Fair/Nair to win. Sometimes you can react to laser in place vs coming in, sometimes you can't. Laser startup is so insanely slow though that it's possible much more often than you'd think I bet. I prime myself to dash side B/Fair or whatever vs in place and otherwise dash back if Falco comes in, with a slight backup plan on jabbing Falco out of approaching laser. Will probably take some practice to get used to.

He had advantage over a shielding Falco, then he had advantage over a spotdodging Falco, but instead of taking his much more guaranteed advantage and getting a grab or pressure/damage, he goes for a read after just trying to get super far away. That said, the play was still alright, but in this particular case it was unnecessary.
I use Ftilt entirely for hitting laser in place startup, similar with Fsmash. Jab is different because I could use it for both aerial and laser. I guess you could use Ftilt/Fsmash for the startup of those things as well but besides some raw rushdown Fsmashes that can work more in this matchup, you don't see that as much. Too much startup on these things after laser to be useful if Falco is quickly spamming lasers normally iirc(for Fsmash especially), but if Falco is staggering his plays at all and you're right outside of tipper jab distance these can definitely be tools to slight walk into using for example. Fsmash is a slower Ftilt with more damage, though not necessarily more reward depending on a few factors(though it often will be better reward I guess).

Also big quick caveat: I never tested CC'ing laser and getting some of this stuff out or really CC'ing lasers at all. I hilariously thought CC'ing lasers didn't affect stun until like a year ago or something, so I haven't tested or played with it at all. I would encourage you to look at it, but if you don't it's not a big deal I will do so after the return. A possibility is you could be a bit closer to jab laser if you CC it, and it could also help with PS too of course if you call the height correctly(most heights will be above crouching Marth after all). If you CC around the typical range we discuss outside of jab, then maybe it's possible to walk Ftilt between fastest spam lasers too. I don't know. Those frames are pretty important though.

Crouch and dash back PS were mainly what I meant. Dash back in particular is honestly crazy lol my roommate and I can hit such a high percentage of lasers when we use dash back, but the drawback is you move away and are turned around of course. But ZPS as well, though I have not learned it yet. Also just generally practicing PS and getting shot so you don't fear lasers is absolutely crucial. Lasers lose a lot of their power and stun time when people stop freaking out lol.

Jab is fastest because it takes the least frames, swings from low to high. So it's the quickest gtfo option. Nair is quite a bit slower but it has a better reward in damage, and can even beat an immediate approach or a slightly delayed one thanks to both hits. But since you need to be in the air longer to get all of it out, it can have its own risks. Fair is a bit slower than Nair but it will solidly beat anything at the tip and covers a more effective range when it's in its useful spot than Nair's little downward slice. Fair traveling from high to low means you have to wait longer than Nair to get it to a useful point as well. It has an advantage over Nair in that you can just fall or act again after it though. There's more to it but maybe this well help you get started.

 

[quixotic]

What options are you covering here with dtilt->dash back nair? How do you think this option does vs dash shield?
https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=19m

 

[Dr Peepee]

If I naired in place I'd be fine vs shield but I move in more because I'm trying to hit them backing up then coming in or FH'ing in....or waiting and coming in as they see me move back. If I Nair'd in place to beat dash up shield I'd almost not do the Nair at that point since most people don't rush down after getting Dtilt'd there. If someone did a lot of run up shield after Dtilt hit I'd either start double Dtilt'ing or I'd dash back run up grab/mix Nair/Fair(or late Fair or empty land) as a mixup depending on how much they varied their approach and how often they ran up after Dtilt, etc.

 

[Kotastic]

How do you feel about light shielding vs spacies? Here's some examples of this effectively in action
https://youtu.be/fG_3-GeHQ0k?t=23m26s
https://youtu.be/VqTPH2PPwTQ?t=18m28s
It honestly seems kind of busted and just frankly the superior way to deal with spacies shield pressure as a last resort. Covers Marth better, more likely to net a shield grab, slides off platform easier...so is light shielding just the truth?

I've been theorycrafting a bit about shield stop nair in place vs falco. I know you're not exactly a fan of shield stops in general, but I think there's a lot of benefits for the Falco mu. There's the added bonus of potential PS, the nair in place beats a lot (if not all?) of falco’s approaches, reduced hitstun from laser from shield so Marth can act OoS quickly, and gradual take space from the shield stop itself. Thoughts?

What are you thoughts on catching turnips as a way of dealing with turnips that I see Zain, Rishi, and M2K consistently go for? Do you think it's consistent and reliable when mixed with other options? What exactly does catching turnips do other than catching the Peach offguard a couple times? It seems that when Armada caught on M2K's turnip catching tricks, M2K's ability to deal with turnips waned gradually.

At high percents, I’m tired of letting Peach get away with airdodge on stage and barely getting punished for it. For low percents, I’ve developed nair → dair that works well if they DI in. Mid percents, setting up fairs for Ken combo also works well for DI in. At high percents, what are your opinions for letting the Peach land a bit and dair to another dair? Saw mango do it a couple times in his stream and thought it can be more reliable way to kill than just rinsing and repeating with fsmash or fair not comboing into anything.

Here’s plenty of footage I got in a decent tournament run I had. Got some questions about some scenarios.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=22s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=37s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=01m28s - Here, I try to pseudo-pivot grab Peach’s approaching FC fair here, but I get cut off with the double jabs. Is it possible to get the pivot grab here if I did a true pivot grab or did it earlier? If not, would I have to outplay further with a foxtrot grab?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=30s - Scenarios like these makes me frustrated at Marth as a character, where I try to dash back fair Peach’s approaching float dair. Because it wasn’t precisely tippered at that somewhat awkward float height, I get naired back for it. How can I mitigate scenarios like this?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=41s - Another aspect of frustrations Marth regarding CC. I try to call out the spotdodge with jump fair, only to get CC’d. Ways to mitigate this?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=49s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=05m43s - In tricky juggle scenario like this where there’s many ways for Peach to escape, is it best to just retreat back down to center and take position?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=01m18s - I actually don’t understand how I got this uptilt setup. It’s something I did unconsciously and ran with it, but I’d like to hear on your perspective why this FH caused this Peach player to drift down fast towards me. I think someone like Armada would’ve tried to drift towards center or worm his way towards the ledge.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=02m10s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=05m46s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=07m25s - This. This is something I think is actually my biggest weakness in the Peach (as well as Samus I suppose) mu atm. Just when she does something I think is committal but I’m not exactly in range, or I just get impatient and try to go for it all...it ruins me in the long term especially against far more proficient Peach mains. I’m not really sure how to phrase this question better, but this problem is similar to how M2K (or really any other Marth not you lol) sometimes lunges at Armada in many of their sets that costed him big. I really do feel like this is by far my biggest problem whereas your Marth rarely ever succumbed to this kind of problem. How do I mitigate this problem?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=03m43s - I realize in the moment I was impatient, and I didn’t realize Peach had her resources to get down. Would the appropriate response be SH in place and FF dash?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=04m54s - How can I deal with this turnip scenario better? Most Peach players in that scenario normally shield, so I didn’t expect the jump there.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=06m05s - How did this fair whiff?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=07m51s - You say that in PS, taking platform is good for avoiding turnips. What if they throw turnips airborne so it hits me there?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=09m24s - Here, I just really didn’t know how to respond to this turnip scenario. Even then, I doubt nairing through this turnip would work at that distance especially when the Peach can dash back. Suggestions?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=11m25s - Idk why I thought it was a good idea to FH fair there. Regardless, would the best play there is just stand there and react?

I have more clips to ask questions about, but I’ll wait a bit to see if they upload it on youtube sooner or later. Plus, this is a lot and I’d rather spread these questions out more cleanly.

Lastly, I’m forced to take breaks from the game again. There will be two weeks where I can’t even touch the controller, and I’m afraid I’ll regress in skill once again as it did before earlier in the summer. I don’t want all the grinding I did at Evo go to waste, so I have thought of mental practice routines I could potentially do like visualizing my practice routine, like thinking about my movement and how to apply it and effectively cornering someone, to build up mindfulness. I also plan to watch a bunch of random Marth videos and just think what I would’ve done in split seconds and also question and explain why they did certain things. This is also meant to build up mindfulness. Any other ideas?

 

[Zorcey]

WD jab can beat laser of course, but generally I use it for lasers in place or mostly in place. I guess it could beat like dash back aerials in or something but I don't think I'd try it at that point.

If you want to be in range to hit jab after laser hits, you lose to immediate aerial free. It's not even close. Jab only tippers after laser when it's outside of immediate tipper range. You can walk jab to hit before the laser comes out or even trade with the laser, but otherwise once it's out you're in a worse position there.

Yeah if I was going to dash in, I'd only do it at the last second so I could get a bit closer to beat any aerial with jab/dash back. So what I would do, from Zain's dash back, is firstly notice I couldn't hit his laser out of the air anymore. So I could either try and Nair over it, or use dash back PS(or ZPS but idk that yet), or dash in kind of late so I'm in prime take laser jab/dash back position.

M2K doesn't just want to dash back every time, as that can make approaches easier and also it means lasering is free stage since the Marth will back up a lot. I'd test out the Nair vs irl Falcos and see how it feels, since Falcos today could vary a bit more than past ones and may be a bit more patient by default in the matchup now. Weak jab is really only possibly useful if Falco goes in with a fully committal laser approach and you hit him out of the height of his jump I think. I wouldn't call it the preferred solution but it's not bad in certain spacings/percents.

A bit hard to accurately assess the position as Mango has left the ground by the time M2K lands. But Mango is probably just outside of jab range as M2K lands so jab could probably hit him coming in. However this is after laser, and if there is no laser out then it's easier to outspace since Falco has no frame advantage, but the timing is no longer set either. If there is no laser out you don't need to jab though and can just use movement/Fair/Nair to win. Sometimes you can react to laser in place vs coming in, sometimes you can't. Laser startup is so insanely slow though that it's possible much more often than you'd think I bet. I prime myself to dash side B/Fair or whatever vs in place and otherwise dash back if Falco comes in, with a slight backup plan on jabbing Falco out of approaching laser. Will probably take some practice to get used to.

He had advantage over a shielding Falco, then he had advantage over a spotdodging Falco, but instead of taking his much more guaranteed advantage and getting a grab or pressure/damage, he goes for a read after just trying to get super far away. That said, the play was still alright, but in this particular case it was unnecessary.
I use Ftilt entirely for hitting laser in place startup, similar with Fsmash. Jab is different because I could use it for both aerial and laser. I guess you could use Ftilt/Fsmash for the startup of those things as well but besides some raw rushdown Fsmashes that can work more in this matchup, you don't see that as much. Too much startup on these things after laser to be useful if Falco is quickly spamming lasers normally iirc(for Fsmash especially), but if Falco is staggering his plays at all and you're right outside of tipper jab distance these can definitely be tools to slight walk into using for example. Fsmash is a slower Ftilt with more damage, though not necessarily more reward depending on a few factors(though it often will be better reward I guess).

Also big quick caveat: I never tested CC'ing laser and getting some of this stuff out or really CC'ing lasers at all. I hilariously thought CC'ing lasers didn't affect stun until like a year ago or something, so I haven't tested or played with it at all. I would encourage you to look at it, but if you don't it's not a big deal I will do so after the return. A possibility is you could be a bit closer to jab laser if you CC it, and it could also help with PS too of course if you call the height correctly(most heights will be above crouching Marth after all). If you CC around the typical range we discuss outside of jab, then maybe it's possible to walk Ftilt between fastest spam lasers too. I don't know. Those frames are pretty important though.

Crouch and dash back PS were mainly what I meant. Dash back in particular is honestly crazy lol my roommate and I can hit such a high percentage of lasers when we use dash back, but the drawback is you move away and are turned around of course. But ZPS as well, though I have not learned it yet. Also just generally practicing PS and getting shot so you don't fear lasers is absolutely crucial. Lasers lose a lot of their power and stun time when people stop freaking out lol.

Jab is fastest because it takes the least frames, swings from low to high. So it's the quickest gtfo option. Nair is quite a bit slower but it has a better reward in damage, and can even beat an immediate approach or a slightly delayed one thanks to both hits. But since you need to be in the air longer to get all of it out, it can have its own risks. Fair is a bit slower than Nair but it will solidly beat anything at the tip and covers a more effective range when it's in its useful spot than Nair's little downward slice. Fair traveling from high to low means you have to wait longer than Nair to get it to a useful point as well. It has an advantage over Nair in that you can just fall or act again after it though. There's more to it but maybe this well help you get started.

Since WD Jab and DA hit at roughly the same range, wouldn't it be better to use DA to hit laser in place? I know you have mixed feelings about DA, but I'm actually not sure why. Mind explaining that, and why you might prefer WD Jab to DA at spacing they'd both hit? I know DA can potentially get bodied by Dair, but can WD Jab cover that?

Actually played around with randomizing Falco coming in versus lasering in place, just feeling the amount of time passing, and you're right, it is possible to react much more often than I thought.

Okay, I did some testing like you suggested (I'll be honest I thought CC did nothing to lasers too loool), and it's pretty crazy. Here's what I think is worth mentioning:
1. CC'd laser has 1 frame of hitlag and 4 frames of hitstun, and this does not distinguish between a crouch state and just holding down (you could hold down literally the frame before laser hits and it's no different) - holding down on the Cstick does nothing afaik. Assuming Falco lands the frame Marth is hit, Falco has three frames of landing lag and four frames of jumpsquat, meaning Marth is +2 if Falco jumps, and -2 if Falco does not.
2. Even if Falco is frame-perfect with laser > Dair Marth can grab him (he has to be frame perfect if Falco is too, however). This means if Marth can manage such a grab consistently (I'm skeptical), Falco HAS to laser > Nair/laser again/dash back if he's not in range for his only true followups of Shine and Jab, leaving Marth plenty of time to crouch, dash back, Jab, grab, or whatever, basically giving him an amazing mixup in what should be a pretty bad situation lol.

Also just some great advice overall PP: solidified a bit of what I've figured out, and made me rethink/realize I've got to rethink a lot of things. Imma study.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do you feel about light shielding vs spacies? Here's some examples of this effectively in action
https://youtu.be/fG_3-GeHQ0k?t=23m26s
https://youtu.be/VqTPH2PPwTQ?t=18m28s
It honestly seems kind of busted and just frankly the superior way to deal with spacies shield pressure as a last resort. Covers Marth better, more likely to net a shield grab, slides off platform easier...so is light shielding just the truth?

I've been theorycrafting a bit about shield stop nair in place vs falco. I know you're not exactly a fan of shield stops in general, but I think there's a lot of benefits for the Falco mu. There's the added bonus of potential PS, the nair in place beats a lot (if not all?) of falco’s approaches, reduced hitstun from laser from shield so Marth can act OoS quickly, and gradual take space from the shield stop itself. Thoughts?

What are you thoughts on catching turnips as a way of dealing with turnips that I see Zain, Rishi, and M2K consistently go for? Do you think it's consistent and reliable when mixed with other options? What exactly does catching turnips do other than catching the Peach offguard a couple times? It seems that when Armada caught on M2K's turnip catching tricks, M2K's ability to deal with turnips waned gradually.

At high percents, I’m tired of letting Peach get away with airdodge on stage and barely getting punished for it. For low percents, I’ve developed nair → dair that works well if they DI in. Mid percents, setting up fairs for Ken combo also works well for DI in. At high percents, what are your opinions for letting the Peach land a bit and dair to another dair? Saw mango do it a couple times in his stream and thought it can be more reliable way to kill than just rinsing and repeating with fsmash or fair not comboing into anything.

Here’s plenty of footage I got in a decent tournament run I had. Got some questions about some scenarios.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=22s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=37s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=01m28s - Here, I try to pseudo-pivot grab Peach’s approaching FC fair here, but I get cut off with the double jabs. Is it possible to get the pivot grab here if I did a true pivot grab or did it earlier? If not, would I have to outplay further with a foxtrot grab?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=30s - Scenarios like these makes me frustrated at Marth as a character, where I try to dash back fair Peach’s approaching float dair. Because it wasn’t precisely tippered at that somewhat awkward float height, I get naired back for it. How can I mitigate scenarios like this?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=41s - Another aspect of frustrations Marth regarding CC. I try to call out the spotdodge with jump fair, only to get CC’d. Ways to mitigate this?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=49s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=05m43s - In tricky juggle scenario like this where there’s many ways for Peach to escape, is it best to just retreat back down to center and take position?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=01m18s - I actually don’t understand how I got this uptilt setup. It’s something I did unconsciously and ran with it, but I’d like to hear on your perspective why this FH caused this Peach player to drift down fast towards me. I think someone like Armada would’ve tried to drift towards center or worm his way towards the ledge.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=02m10s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=05m46s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=07m25s - This. This is something I think is actually my biggest weakness in the Peach (as well as Samus I suppose) mu atm. Just when she does something I think is committal but I’m not exactly in range, or I just get impatient and try to go for it all...it ruins me in the long term especially against far more proficient Peach mains. I’m not really sure how to phrase this question better, but this problem is similar to how M2K (or really any other Marth not you lol) sometimes lunges at Armada in many of their sets that costed him big. I really do feel like this is by far my biggest problem whereas your Marth rarely ever succumbed to this kind of problem. How do I mitigate this problem?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=03m43s - I realize in the moment I was impatient, and I didn’t realize Peach had her resources to get down. Would the appropriate response be SH in place and FF dash?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=04m54s - How can I deal with this turnip scenario better? Most Peach players in that scenario normally shield, so I didn’t expect the jump there.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=06m05s - How did this fair whiff?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=07m51s - You say that in PS, taking platform is good for avoiding turnips. What if they throw turnips airborne so it hits me there?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=09m24s - Here, I just really didn’t know how to respond to this turnip scenario. Even then, I doubt nairing through this turnip would work at that distance especially when the Peach can dash back. Suggestions?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/295366528?t=11m25s - Idk why I thought it was a good idea to FH fair there. Regardless, would the best play there is just stand there and react?

I have more clips to ask questions about, but I’ll wait a bit to see if they upload it on youtube sooner or later. Plus, this is a lot and I’d rather spread these questions out more cleanly.

Lastly, I’m forced to take breaks from the game again. There will be two weeks where I can’t even touch the controller, and I’m afraid I’ll regress in skill once again as it did before earlier in the summer. I don’t want all the grinding I did at Evo go to waste, so I have thought of mental practice routines I could potentially do like visualizing my practice routine, like thinking about my movement and how to apply it and effectively cornering someone, to build up mindfulness. I also plan to watch a bunch of random Marth videos and just think what I would’ve done in split seconds and also question and explain why they did certain things. This is also meant to build up mindfulness. Any other ideas?

Lightshielding is something I wanted to look into a bit more and compare to shield (S)DI. So I don't really know right now. I think it's better vs Falco since his shine is smaller and he's generally slower to get moves out due to lower jumpsquat and he will outright grab less so your pushback may help you more there. Downsides can be that if a spacie just wanted to space pressure on you or get stage then their goal would be significantly easier to achieve. I don't think it's bad but I haven't tested it really to see how good it is. Zain has gotten some good stuff with it, but the shield pressure he's often fighting isn't that good anyway(Mango high Dairs in 2018).

If you do PS, then your aerial wouldn't get you much leverage. If you wait to aerial to confirm a PS, then you could lose to them coming in more likely I'd think. If you're just trying to set up an aerial to beat what they do then that's okay, but if you commit to an aerial to beat a move and are wrong then you either fade back a lot to stay safe but lose stage which Falco will take, or you stay in place hoping to hit them and if you're wrong they can pressure you in a bad position at best or hit you at worst. If you're confident Falco will come in then it's fine.

Never cared about catching turnips. Marth's item throw isn't great, dropping a turnip can take time, and it's possible to fail the catch and get hit. I'd prefer to just hit the turnip then move. Honestly it probably doesn't matter that much though from what I see.

Peach is often holding down when landing so I don't like Dair if someone will hold down. If the Peach just holds in then it's fine, or if you find a way to punish them holding down to mix up the Dair then that's also fine.

Your linked example is Nair with you trying to shield grab, but I know what you mean. Looking at your other examples, you were really really slow on the grab. So I think one easier thing you can do is space the grab to grab Peach's extended hand from the jab. But I want you to watch Armada M2K and watch when Armada lands and whiffs. He's usually rolling or spotdodging now because M2K is so good at getting in with a very tight timing on the grab between FC and jab. I was surprised when I was learning the matchup how tight the timing is, as you have to be just out of the range of Fair and running in to grab her landing lag I think. If you're late you get jabbed and it's dumb, but if you're not 100% confident/haven't practiced the play then yeah just try to grab her hands or hit her instead/play the next position.

Slight possibility you could have Naired here. Anyway, if you pivot Fair'd instead of dashed you would have won cleanly, and this distinction helped me a lot in situations like this. It's also worth noting that the Fsmash lag kept you from dashing back asap as you saw the Dair so you could have been able to react and dash back then dash in Fair her earlier for a better punish normally. I feel you though, this type of thing makes Marth insanely frustrating until you get it down.

If you had tippered this would have gone better it looks like. But yeah if you weak Fair you can't Dtilt afterward. You could have (wave)dashed back and looked for a punish like Dtilt/DA and maybe you had time to jump again since she did Dtilt. I think Nair would also have worked but that's more of a specific tool for beating spotdodge. If you hit weak Fair and see the Dtilt come out I suppose you could try to shield punish it but I think her jab can come out before your grab. I don't remember how that situation plays out but anyway if you're worried about weak Fair perhaps you'd like to hit later/fade back a bit more to dodge their likely next attack then observe. And if you're close, moving back can be good.

In both scenarios, you lunged too early and whiffed which made it super easy to get down. You didn't know your own range or how long it'd take to get there in other words. The alternative isn't necessarily to just wait, but you want to keep an advantageous position/begin threatening them if you can't immediately hit. And if you can hit them but they can dodge, then you want to threaten that hit. So if you used FH wait instead of FH immediate DJ aerial, you could have delayed and then hit DJ Fair/Uair I think on her falling Bair she was forced to do. But if she had her float, or you weren't sure you could hit the aerial, you can just FF back down after the FH for example and now Peach either put herself in lag or an easier position to punish or she used her float/DJ/upB which means you can now force her aerial/airdodge next time.

You did an aerial on the side platform. That sent the message you'd attack from there. Then you FH'd as Peach got near, implying you'd be high up and cover high and stuff going directly into you/the platform or DJ'ing in case she went over. So you FF and Peach didn't have time to recognize you'd FF through the platform because she committed but she opens her parasol just as she gets to the edge as she sees you're low and tries to go over you. She gets Utilt'd. It wasn't a fantastic Peach play necessarily, but the manipulation is there on your end and you can tell the player did reasonably respond to it. Just because a Peach doesn't take all day to float down doesn't mean they aren't paying attention.

I'm not entirely sure what that second clip is supposed to be referencing, but I understand the general idea. In general yeah it's an issue and the way I think of it is they can't actually do anything to me so I'll kill them eventually. If you know how to edgeguard/juggle then it's even easier to say I know they'll die soon if I just hit them, which is how M2K gets his kills now. I think it's just as much mental as it is in game. In game, it's about knowing Peach has a tiny hurtbox that's actually inside of the dress(so you have to be closer than it looks) and you have to have played the position and made absolutely sure you know what hits and what doesn't on a given drift/spacing/etc. Out of game, you need to remember you'll kill them if you know the positions and have worked it all out, and also that Peaches only REALLY have that aggravating factor to make you lose. They can't beat you straight up but they can make it take longer. If you just wait a bit then kill them anyway, that can be really difficult for them to handle. I used to get a sick pleasure in killing floaties well and not letting them get stray hits and watch them get mad rofl, and I still really enjoy gimping Puff because I know it never happens to them. Another out of game thing for me is I have a lot of faith in Marth being able to just body someone until they die, in these matchups anyway. Once they're in a bad position, you can do a lot with just a small amount of effort and that makes it all flowchart easily so you can't mess up. But it's just when you do mess up if it's not super well organized it's an issue. I'm not sure how else I can say practicing the position will make it easier(like with what we discussed when Dair'ing Falcon UpB I notice a parallel here), but hopefully that helps.

Yeah that could work. You could also have FH drifted in, possibly slightly closer. Doesn't mean you'd hit outright but it would either force them into you or to edge which is great to me.

Looks like she actually ran back before jumping. You could have moved in with Dtilt, or with Fair/Nair I'd think. I guess Fsmash would've worked too technically but lol.

Lmao perfect spacing. But yeah this goes back to what I said above about you have to hit inside her as that's where her body is and not her dress. I saw her with just textures on and it changed everything for me, highly highly recommend. I'm a bit surprised you didn't hit her feet either but I guess you were just spaced a bit too far.

Looks like you could've dropped through with Fair and hit her and the turnip. Could've Dtilted on the platform and hit both. Could have SH'd over it I guess. I wouldn't use a platform that close to Peach though which I think is the main issue.

Yeah I don't think you could Nair through that first one. I think running in and FH'ing could be okay as you could go above her heightened turnip throw as well. You could also just WD back to dodge and see what she did. You could use the branch some. Second turnip you can definitely Nair through and counter and maybe Fair. Maybe also jab dash back but that doesn't look as good here.

Lol you and these rising Fairs out of range. And yeah you could've just stood there and seen peach went down immediately as you landed on the platform so that's a free runoff Fair.

Thank you for sparing me I hate these Twitch vods lol

I'd make up a bunch of situations, like Fox Up-B'ing somewhere you can't directly hit and then change variables like stage or percent and decide what to do. Then run it again with conditioning. Surprise yourself. This type of stuff helped me develop some things actually.
I also enjoy spending time thinking about tools and their uses and combinations. Now I have the same thing with dashes too. If you could find a new use for Ftilt that's always cool. I found Ftilt to be a bit useful vs Puff for example partly because of this process.

Since WD Jab and DA hit at roughly the same range, wouldn't it be better to use DA to hit laser in place? I know you have mixed feelings about DA, but I'm actually not sure why. Mind explaining that, and why you might prefer WD Jab to DA at spacing they'd both hit? I know DA can potentially get bodied by Dair, but can WD Jab cover that?

Actually played around with randomizing Falco coming in versus lasering in place, just feeling the amount of time passing, and you're right, it is possible to react much more often than I thought.

Okay, I did some testing like you suggested (I'll be honest I thought CC did nothing to lasers too loool), and it's pretty crazy. Here's what I think is worth mentioning:
1. CC'd laser has 1 frame of hitlag and 4 frames of hitstun, and this does not distinguish between a crouch state and just holding down (you could hold down literally the frame before laser hits and it's no different) - holding down on the Cstick does nothing afaik. Assuming Falco lands the frame Marth is hit, Falco has three frames of landing lag and four frames of jumpsquat, meaning Marth is +2 if Falco jumps, and -2 if Falco does not.
2. Even if Falco is frame-perfect with laser > Dair Marth can grab him (he has to be frame perfect if Falco is too, however). This means if Marth can manage such a grab consistently (I'm skeptical), Falco HAS to laser > Nair/laser again/dash back if he's not in range for his only true followups of Shine and Jab, leaving Marth plenty of time to crouch, dash back, Jab, grab, or whatever, basically giving him an amazing mixup in what should be a pretty bad situation lol.

Also just some great advice overall PP: solidified a bit of what I've figured out, and made me rethink/realize I've got to rethink a lot of things. Imma study.

DA is only somewhat spammable in this matchup and Marth dittos imo, but I just dislike how easily it gets beaten by shield and holding down and it still takes a bit to come out. It's probably better than WD jab, but the advantage of WD jab is while I'm sliding I can decide whether to jab or Fair or whatever and so it feels less committal once I decide the WD is alright. Plus hitting the jab is still a pretty good position so almost as good as a direct punish to me.

What spacing were you testing with holding down vs laser?

 

[Zorcey]

I tested two spacings (the math is pretty easy when Falco lands right on top of Marth with laser so I didn't bother with that one): first was Falco landing outside his own Jab range with the laser (so he has to aerial or I guess DA for something true/that beats dash back), and this is the spacing where CC laser > frame-perfect grab works on Dair. Just now I tested Falco landing with laser outside Marth's standing Tipper Jab range, and interestingly Falco's frame-perfect Dair beats it (idk if you suspected this or not, but when you asked this possibility suddenly occurred to me, and sure enough). However, Marth has ridiculous leniency to dash back pivot grab at this spacing, he can still beat Dair cleanly with a two frame window for Weak Jab and one frame for SideB, and he can cover both frame perfect Dair and DA with shield, meaning Falco has to play the mixup, or get nothing off the laser.

 

[Dr Peepee]

That grabbing Dair out of the air so jank lol. I'll write this down and look into it myself as well, thanks for the info.

 

[Kotastic]

"Looks like you could've dropped through with Fair and hit her and the turnip. Could've Dtilted on the platform and hit both. Could have SH'd over it I guess. I wouldn't use a platform that close to Peach though which I think is the main issue."
At what range would you recommend taking the PS platform against Peach then? What would've been the more appropriate response?

Furthermore, how do feel about shielding turnips? I've seen Zain do this trick where he shields then grabs the turnip so the Peach can't freely regrab the turnip. I use shield against bad Peach players that try to farm multiple turnips so I get an easy WD in grab, but beyond that I'm not too sure how reliable that is.

Also finally got youtube vods yay. Uh, this is rather a lot so take your time or feel free to answer in increments.

https://youtu.be/WPi1oaX8uXQ?t=1m46s - looking back, it kinda didn't make sense to just run in dtilt like that. Would a better response be dash in --> WD back dtilt/jump nair to cover my center ground better?

https://youtu.be/rseN6n8i_vQ?t=3m32s
https://youtu.be/rseN6n8i_vQ?t=10m23s - When Fox FH DJ's like that, do you think the best solution for seeing FH to begin with is to dash back pivot fair in place? I find that option to be very safe and consistent to do, as I find that if I try to intercept going in, it whiffs like this https://youtu.be/rseN6n8i_vQ?t=5m21s

https://youtu.be/rseN6n8i_vQ?t=6m26s - Do you think it was a mistake going for the third fair as it whiffed grabbed? Does it go back to what we talked earlier about faking going in then something like WD back? I think I execute this better here: https://youtu.be/rseN6n8i_vQ?t=8m1s

https://youtu.be/rseN6n8i_vQ?t=9m17s - Here, I got punished going for dtilt --> grab that used to work in like 2012 lol. Instead, I got FH drilled for it. Is the best course of action after landing a dtilt at least in that position is to nair immediately afterwards or something?

https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=2m39s
https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=4m33s - In these kinds of spots, I might just opt to do the Falcon and jump dair/upair this from now on. I'm tired of this happening, so might as well get the higher reward of dair at low percents. Other suggestions?

https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=3m15s
https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=11m34s
https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=15m50s - This kind of escape from f-throw at low percents aggravate me, and I also forgot to mention M2K did this a lot in our little friendlies where he would dash back grab my attempted regrab. Is the safe play here from opponents that are aware of this escape just dtilt in place?

https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=3m31s
https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=11m48s
https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=5m21s
https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=10m31s - This compilation of me getting baited by fairs really gets in my nerves, mostly for how often I fell for it. I have no idea why I kept thinking I can pivot grab. In scenarios where I can't exactly do dtilts to beat the landing of Sheik's fairs, I'm really thinking this risk/reward scenario is in favor of Sheik if she can mix between dash back and ftilt. Thoughts?

https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=16s
https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=10m44s
https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=13m47s
https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=16m38s - These are some frustrations I have regarding CC stuff that I'm not entirely sure how to go about

https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=18m28s
https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=18m46s - Could you tell me why exactly these fairs didn't hit Sheik in the air? Honestly the only consistent way I've been beating Sheik's fair straight-up is fsmash lol.




-13 SHEIK EDGEGUARD SCENARIOS-
At the moment, I'm afraid of edgeguarding Sheik because if I mess up, I might die for it or get really bad positioning out of it. I will map them out though in various scenarios.
https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=17s - Would runoff fair or grabbing ledge there would be advisable? I tend to not like either because if I miss runoff fair, I die, and if I try to WD to ledge I tend to get susceptible to DJ fair.

https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=40s - This is the one edgeguard I've been developing where if the Sheik is below DJ sweetspot range, I go down there and refresh with up-B. However, I'm not too sure what to do afterwards if the Sheik lands the wall-tech. Thoughts?

https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=1m49s - Idk how to go about this ridiculous recovery. I think it was a 50/50 to regular getup or roll? How can I cover more options effectively?

https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=6m49s - Could I get to the ledge or runoff fair on time?

https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=6m58s - Was it a mistake not going for reverse neutral-b that M2K goes for a decent amount? After the dthrow, I should've went for the up-B refresh, but then again it goes towards what to do with the immediate wall tech up-b afterwards.

https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=8m30s - Not sure if it's possible to call out what seems to me, a safe slight fade back to recovery. Was the play there to waveland fsmash/mix up with amsah tech callout?

https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=10m17s - Of all the edgeguards to hit, this one looks like it's legit impossible.

https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=11m10s
https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=4m50s - I've always struggled with this kind of edgeguard where if the Sheik sparingly uses DJ attack to counter me trying to go to ledge. What are your suggestions dealing with this better?

https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=1m54s - Is this one of those scenarios where I fake grab the ledge?

https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=1m58s - Idk why this worked loool. If I realized that Faceroll amsah teching also translated to teching weak upairs, it would've meant an easy fsmash kill.

https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=3m3s - Would doing the M2K neutral b work here? Also in this kind of scenario, should I basically always roll getup there?

https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=6m59s - In the rare event that I don't get faired trying to grab the ledge, I'm not sure if it's exactly possible to get much followups trying to edgeguard Sheik at low percents if she recovers high like that.
...

https://youtu.be/48Eppw1BgQw?t=4m41s - I understand cornering better

https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=5m39s - I've been messing with dash dance pivot fsmashing in neutral as of late. It's fun to use, albeit there's times where I kind of got carried away with it. I like it a lot and plan to incorporate it where I see it fit in dash dancing.

 

[AirFair]

wow there's so much to read lol, glad that there are so many things being discussed, though there's not much I can really add when I look at everything.

Just a small thing I've been thinking about among other things, thought I would ask about it.

When edgeguarding spacies below the ledge, something I've been thinking of using more is let go dj fair to hit them coming up to the ledge, and in some cases can let me regrab the ledge before they fall to it if they were to go straight up. This seems like a good idea when they are recovering from farther down and they could potentially sweetspot, because I'd prefer not to counter unless they are closer to the ledge where it's more likely to work. How does that sound?

I've been trying to use let go fair more when I get the ledge and it doesn't really seem reliable when they are hugging the wall on non battlefield stages, since I can't get the reverse hitbox of fair and they will usually be able to tech the hit if they aren't at low percent. I think ledgehop counter seems like a pretty good idea in those situations. You've also mentioned using a kind of ledgehop nair that would mess up their tech in an earlier post, which I don't quite get, but I think it would be useful.

Example of an edgeguard I messed up (this guy has good sweetspots)
https://youtu.be/SW2aVJSUnqE?t=2m19s

 

[Dr Peepee]

I definitely prefer taking the platform farther away so you force her to jump or you can say SH at her and Fair her if she throws or pressure her/take stage or whatever if she doesn't. Going in with Nair here might have been alright actually. Could also run in FH and see how it goes I guess, or get on opposite side platform and go from there with SH/FH/runoff stuff.

Yeah you can shield the turnip too, but I prefer to jab it so if they do come in then it's fine either way. If they don't come in I guess it's whatever but shielding is slower I would think.

That Dtilt barely whiffed so if you ran forward for another frame or Dtilt'd a frame later it would've worked lol. Doesn't mean it was necessarily good but anyway, those other options hedge your bets better. Going all in has advantages in that it makes your opponent respect your forward movement more right off the bat. Some people prefer to find out if the opponent already respects it or not though.

That's a fine option vs FH/DJ, but if he DJs right as you swing and is above you then he could land on your which is an issue. Retreating can help with this.

The positions are a bit different, but yeah you mainly got stuck kind of in place which made you more predictable. Once you forced Fox to respect your in place movement you're free to move more and shift that zone. Even drifting without FF into Fair could have worked.

Fox was up before you even moved from Dtilt, so plenty you could have done to beat FH there. Nair is one option for sure. Dtilt observe best combo.

You could tipper Fsmash it too which is always fun lol. But yeah learning when you can and can't grab helps a lot. The aerials can be fine too if you learn to play those new positions.

Dtilt in place, slight walk Dtilt/Fsmash, run a little longer to grab, SH in, observe, etc.

You are reacting to her aerial too late(after she lands or just as she lands) or you're spaced too far, or both. If she drifts back it's not so grabbable, but most of these were in place or drift in so I'd recommend practicing this as it's really important. You can also just SH in place as you see her come down to cover her landing in front of her and drift over her aerial and pressure her landing if you want, or Dtilt/overshoot grab/whatever if you think she will dash back.

Lmao wow that first one. Spacing Dtilt makes this less likely, but I've been thinking that after Dtilt'ing a shield you should just slight walk forward to get IASA and prime for grab if they keep doing this dumb option. You can also just hold down during Dtilt.
Second one....looks like you need to delay the Fair more, or use Nair, or empty land more. People like to eat up falling Fair so mixing that up however you can will help out. Third one seems similar but looks like you could've acted before Sheik got to you. Dash or shield. Last one is jumping in with Nair which is just generally not a good idea.

That first Fair wasn't even close, you can pause on the frame(s) it's able to hit her and see she's pretty far away. Second is a bit closer but still really far. Just start your jump from closer to her. This probably comes back to the thing I mentioned a while ago about playing too far from Sheik giving her way more power to needle and Fair you than she should have.

A bit hard to tell since you didn't dash there and I would have, but I think dash SH out so I can Fair if he does nothing, then DJ back onstage quickly if I see him DJ or airdodge.

I like let go Fair or let go DJ Fair to reverse them here. You can also just mix up whether you go onstage or the edge which I sometimes do with regrabs but not sure if you had time here. I know he techs everything but what would happen if you did weak Uair here? He can tech and then you can Fsmash right?

Looking at this frame by frame, looks like he has to come in as he up-Bs, so you could presumably WD off Bair this as he comes in. Perhaps also SH out and Fair it as he does wait a bit before popping the option. Not sure how reliable that is though. Anyway for the situation in which you grabbed the edge, you can definitely refresh, which means you could fake going on stage or regrabbing the edge. That's pretty good to me, but I would opt to just hang on the edge sometimes if he's going to do weird stuff and then edgedash hit him if he goes onstage. I think also you did getup a bit too early.

No runoff Fair. I think dash pivot WD back twice could've gotten you there in time.

Looks like that shield breaker would have worked here. Will have to watch their drift closely to make sure it works. Sheik was too far out to get hit by the upb this time. You should hold the edge more, realizing that Sheik can't do anything to you if she hits you at 0% anyway but she's delaying her jump to avoid your invincibility and to get you off the edge. If you wait until she has to jump/upB then you can start Dair'ing her or letting go and Bair'ing more often, etc. Quickly acting is what I used to do but mixing in waiting puts so much pressure on her.

You may have been able to WD off DJ Bair the upB. Yeah you could have def edgedash Fsmashed.

Yeah this would've been more difficult. Run to the edge shield vs Dtilt vs runoff Fair vs runoff DJ Dair, or WD to the edge vs WD close to the edge and shield are what I'm thinking right here.

That first one your SH kept you from running over to threaten a better hit, and the second you wait quite a bit before moving. But anyway assuming you're in a situation like this, faking going near the edge with WD or SH can bait them into coming up early sometimes. If they don't bite, you can often WD or WL toward edge as well, or runoff Fair. Just kind of depends on some things.

Yeah that would've helped.

Looks like we already talked about this rofl

Grabbing the edge later so you can wait longer to getup would help here, but yeah rolling or getting up is the mixup if you find yourself in this situation. I think neutral B would have worked but I think he also may have been able to jump and hit you. Would depend on how precisely you do it.

Should've used tipper Uair.

Baitz

It's a great option, and you used it well here. Not spammable as you said, but making your dash stronger is only good.

 

[Dr Peepee]

wow there's so much to read lol, glad that there are so many things being discussed, though there's not much I can really add when I look at everything.

Just a small thing I've been thinking about among other things, thought I would ask about it.

When edgeguarding spacies below the ledge, something I've been thinking of using more is let go dj fair to hit them coming up to the ledge, and in some cases can let me regrab the ledge before they fall to it if they were to go straight up. This seems like a good idea when they are recovering from farther down and they could potentially sweetspot, because I'd prefer not to counter unless they are closer to the ledge where it's more likely to work. How does that sound?

I've been trying to use let go fair more when I get the ledge and it doesn't really seem reliable when they are hugging the wall on non battlefield stages, since I can't get the reverse hitbox of fair and they will usually be able to tech the hit if they aren't at low percent. I think ledgehop counter seems like a pretty good idea in those situations. You've also mentioned using a kind of ledgehop nair that would mess up their tech in an earlier post, which I don't quite get, but I think it would be useful.

Example of an edgeguard I messed up (this guy has good sweetspots)
https://youtu.be/SW2aVJSUnqE?t=2m19s

Yeah I agree the DJ Fair is great to help you regrab edge and avoid them hitting you, though if they tech jump attack it's not great for you. I prefer letting go and hitting Fair/UpB lower so they can't wall jump side B or walljump airdodge recover if possible. If they can ride a wall, sometimes I let go side B and try to drag them down with me and mix when I Fair/UpB out of that to mess up their tech timing.

The ledgehop counter and Nair are great too. If you refresh right before they take off, they have to either go up and into your counter/aerial OR you just hold edge and it's a very easy reaction. That's a great option as well and probably easier to try than some of this other stuff.

 

[Reyjavik]

damn, I never realized how I can use jab against falco. I've been experimenting using jabs in neutral but didn't realize how effective it might be when being lasered.

 

[Kotastic]

Alright PP, thanks a lot for the in-depth responses for my questions! I'll report back sooner or later if my edgeguards on sheik improve and grind these out as soon as I get home.

Why do you not like shield stops again? I'm not sure if we both have the same visualization of SH in place, as atm I'm thinking dash forward shield stop is the best version of SH in place. I would record a footage if we're both thinking the same thing but can't do that for a week atm. Do you perhaps have footage?

I've been doing some visualization practice for now and I'm really thinking some of my WD variations are honestly op. For instance, WD forward has the obvious threat of dtilt, so my opponent will respond with jump, shield, or maybe cut me off with attack. So I WD forward, WD back to observe a split second, then respond appropriately with dash back against attack or WD in vs jump or shield. Similar concept with deeply thinking about dash forward WD back to observe and then WD in. It's really fascinating thinking about possibilities, and it really makes me wanna try this in friendlies or at least pick up a controller ahhh.

Speaking of visualization, I have trouble really defining on what dash dancing in it of itself really means. At this point, WD are clearly defined to me as WD forward clearly represents dtilt or at the very least an attack and WD back represents a quick reposition while observing my opponent. I guess dashes can represent the same thing too, but I think I like WD more because it's more likely to get a response from my opponent from my experience. Maybe it's because of how often dash dancing is used (and often not in a threatening manner) whereas WD's are more subtle and very often represents threats. Atm, I only see dashes as an extension of my WD tools, but how can I better visualize dash dances?

I sometimes lurk in your falco boards and saw that you told someone in how to study positions. As I try to study videos that I downloaded in my phone during long car rides, I often find that the pace of the match goes too fast for me as there's just so many variables, and I kind of get stuck in analysis paralysis and succumb to hindsight bias or question what I truly know. When I try to slow it down, explain everything, and then bring it back to normal speed my head kind of gets dizzy for how something so complex is just happening in a matter of seconds, and I get discouraged from trying to succinctly explain everything. I suppose in the end, I think I don't truly understand many positions enough if I'm stuck trying to explain such variables, but I think with the time I have to just study I can really benefit from understanding why, especially against floaties. I'm kind of rambling here, so I guess my end question is how can I be sure if my analysis benefits me? Also, is it really beneficial for me only studying top level matches? I kind of have a tendency to only study sets where only Marth wins, but that may not be the best way to go. And also idk, any other inputs?

 

[quixotic]

https://youtu.be/gty57-vLe-8?t=7m23s

Hey pp what do you think about this rc dtilt vs fox running off the top platform and shielding? Do you think it would be better to take space with my dash dance instead? Or maybe jump fair/ dash wd dtilt after seeing him shield?

 

[Reyjavik]

Just a reminder that this is Marth discussion, not just ask PP discussion lolol. Not saying its bad, but also let's give the guy room.

My first thought is you are not threatening at all with your dash dance, you're lucky your opponent isn't trying to challenge it.
Also your dances are the same size as well so yes, you should vary size at times while also mixing in dtilts as yours at your time stamp is way too off space. Dtilt isn't meant to enroach space, but punish spacing on the opponent/anticipate their movement.
Fair wouldn't have covered either as your perception was aiming to hit him in that area, not where he was going to go. Hence why he ran past you unpunished as you saw to attack at that specific spot.
If you had dd'ed at small distance, you might have been able to punish him with dtilt if you were closer to center stage

 

[Dr Peepee]

Alright PP, thanks a lot for the in-depth responses for my questions! I'll report back sooner or later if my edgeguards on sheik improve and grind these out as soon as I get home.

Why do you not like shield stops again? I'm not sure if we both have the same visualization of SH in place, as atm I'm thinking dash forward shield stop is the best version of SH in place. I would record a footage if we're both thinking the same thing but can't do that for a week atm. Do you perhaps have footage?

I've been doing some visualization practice for now and I'm really thinking some of my WD variations are honestly op. For instance, WD forward has the obvious threat of dtilt, so my opponent will respond with jump, shield, or maybe cut me off with attack. So I WD forward, WD back to observe a split second, then respond appropriately with dash back against attack or WD in vs jump or shield. Similar concept with deeply thinking about dash forward WD back to observe and then WD in. It's really fascinating thinking about possibilities, and it really makes me wanna try this in friendlies or at least pick up a controller ahhh.

Speaking of visualization, I have trouble really defining on what dash dancing in it of itself really means. At this point, WD are clearly defined to me as WD forward clearly represents dtilt or at the very least an attack and WD back represents a quick reposition while observing my opponent. I guess dashes can represent the same thing too, but I think I like WD more because it's more likely to get a response from my opponent from my experience. Maybe it's because of how often dash dancing is used (and often not in a threatening manner) whereas WD's are more subtle and very often represents threats. Atm, I only see dashes as an extension of my WD tools, but how can I better visualize dash dances?

I sometimes lurk in your falco boards and saw that you told someone in how to study positions. As I try to study videos that I downloaded in my phone during long car rides, I often find that the pace of the match goes too fast for me as there's just so many variables, and I kind of get stuck in analysis paralysis and succumb to hindsight bias or question what I truly know. When I try to slow it down, explain everything, and then bring it back to normal speed my head kind of gets dizzy for how something so complex is just happening in a matter of seconds, and I get discouraged from trying to succinctly explain everything. I suppose in the end, I think I don't truly understand many positions enough if I'm stuck trying to explain such variables, but I think with the time I have to just study I can really benefit from understanding why, especially against floaties. I'm kind of rambling here, so I guess my end question is how can I be sure if my analysis benefits me? Also, is it really beneficial for me only studying top level matches? I kind of have a tendency to only study sets where only Marth wins, but that may not be the best way to go. And also idk, any other inputs?

No problem man, glad I can help =) Hopefully some of this can get you unstuck in this matchup haha

Shield stops are perhaps a minor difference to me. I don't like taking frames to stop when I might drift back since I would anyway, or stop where I would to get a tech chase anyway. It's mainly important for stopping you moving forward before jumping, but I think stopping takes a couple frames or feels like it. This difference isn't worth the extra drift control to me as it seems like you get your move out so much slower. I also don't like shielding as Marth as if it gets hit it's just a problem. But yeah in times like tech chasing or whatever it's more preference I'd think. Maybe there will be certain situations in neutral or punish that make me reconsider as the meta optimizes more, but I don't see a need for myself to use it currently. I don't have a vid.

Haha yeah man, WD is honestly so good with Marth and I'm glad you're experimenting with it more. WD back in particular is cool since you hold down and move away and still face forward so you can directly Fair/Dtilt/grab if needed.

A long dash is like a WD in that it's slower and more likely to get a reaction as it also covers more ground which makes it more likely to force a response. Smaller dashes it can be harder to tell. Dashes in general don't shift your overall space as much as WD as WD shifts your whole dash center. Dashes help you adjust faster and more minutely, and if you tie approaches to them it can work the same. Long dash turns into RC Dtilt pretty quickly. A quick dash back could turn into a long or quick approach. Perhaps these are two good points to play with.

So you'd benefit from simplifying analysis a lot. Watch yourself, watch players worse than you or better by any amount, watch when Marth loses. Worse players have simple strategies that will be easier to understand but they may do a couple things better. Better players won't be too much more complicated and could still have solutions for you to readily take in. Marths losing help you ask what they could do better, and also Marths usually just lose so you get to see more matches rofl.

As for watching top level matches, try pausing and looking through the options then guessing what happens next as well as what you personally would have done. Then compare to what happens. What is the difference and why? Initially, you won't know. In the beginning of a set you can't know for sure. But as you continue this process you can build ideas. The first stock can take hours or days to get through. It doesn't matter.

You can also just simplify things and just only look at combos, or only juggles, or only edgeguards, or only DI. Sometimes just focusing on one area makes it easier.

https://youtu.be/gty57-vLe-8?t=7m23s

Hey pp what do you think about this rc dtilt vs fox running off the top platform and shielding? Do you think it would be better to take space with my dash dance instead? Or maybe jump fair/ dash wd dtilt after seeing him shield?

Something important here. When you dashed in as he shielded and you could clearly confirm he shielded, you should not have dashed back. This messed up the position and advantage for you.

When you did move in, you could have used WD Dtilt to intercept him I'm pretty sure. But you could also have hedged your place with Fair or dash in Fair in place or retreating Fair from closer, or run in with grab if you confirmed him still running in, or moved in then WD'd back as you saw him start to come in, etc. The main thing to me is you needed to break your DD earlier OR accept that you're holding one position for quite a while so learn to use that to your advantage in some way such as pulling them in or attacking a bit quicker when you do go in.

Just a reminder that this is Marth discussion, not just ask PP discussion lolol. Not saying its bad, but also let's give the guy room.

My first thought is you are not threatening at all with your dash dance, you're lucky your opponent isn't trying to challenge it.
Also your dances are the same size as well so yes, you should vary size at times while also mixing in dtilts as yours at your time stamp is way too off space. Dtilt isn't meant to enroach space, but punish spacing on the opponent/anticipate their movement.
Fair wouldn't have covered either as your perception was aiming to hit him in that area, not where he was going to go. Hence why he ran past you unpunished as you saw to attack at that specific spot.
If you had dd'ed at small distance, you might have been able to punish him with dtilt if you were closer to center stage

I don't mind them asking me stuff, I'm trying to build an army out here =p That said they do help each other sometimes which is nice.

 

[quixotic]

Just to clarify what's the difference between fair and dash in fair in place? If I'm breaking my dash dance with fair wouldn't i always be doing a dash in before the fair?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sorry I got ahead of myself. I was likely referring to different timings of Fair out of dash and out of jump, and different drifts. So you could early retreating Fair, or mix mid and late or double Fair, or do early Fair but more in place, etc. I just wanted to say you could handle the situation in a variety of ways you saw fit.

 

[Reyjavik]

So how do people see mixups and their usage? Let's say as a marth I'm trying to do a different option every time against a player who is less skilled than me. Should I continue to do a different option every interaction, or simply stay with a singular option that they are not adapting to? I'm unsure which is better for play overall as constant mixups will help with upper level play, while constant punish of same move helps with punish game

 

[maclo4]

Is it weird that I feel like my neutral is more intentional when I play falco compared to marth? I just play falco in friendlies and stuff but I swear sometimes I feel way more in tune with what I'm choosing to do and why whenI play him. It might just be a change in perspective or that my gameplan with falco is simpler and easier to think about but idrk. And my falco is definitely worse than my marth on pretty much all fronts despite this. Anyone else have a similar experience?

 

[Kotastic]

PP, how do you discern your dash dances between reads and reactions? Do every little dash you do you look for cues to react to? That little advice you gave to quixotic to confirm after the shield seems pretty fast to me, but upon slowing it down it seems feasible to achieve with reactions if you notice the little cues perhaps. So many Marth mains like me on first glance would dismiss that as something to read/commit and "might as well dash back," but you say otherwise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6E6Zp5sYvs&feature=youtu.be&t=9s - I'm thinking that you read Armada's dash with dash forward, and somehow you reacted to Armada falling down the the side plat and faired him? Or is that me overanalyzing and it was a double read.

Additionally, when do you distinguish when you want to dash as opposed to WD? I find that often you do your patented WD back WD in thing particularly against Marth/Sheik, but you generally opt to do dash dances against spacies and such. Is it because WD takes more time to set up whereas dashes are meant for frame-tight repositions? If given time to setup, do you think WD back is superior to dash back?

Upon further discussion, your dash dances are actually insane the more I think about it to the point where idk if anyone can actually faithfully replicate it. So many have tried and the results are eh. I'll do my best to actually try to understand, but it'll certainly take a while to even crack the surface.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So how do people see mixups and their usage? Let's say as a marth I'm trying to do a different option every time against a player who is less skilled than me. Should I continue to do a different option every interaction, or simply stay with a singular option that they are not adapting to? I'm unsure which is better for play overall as constant mixups will help with upper level play, while constant punish of same move helps with punish game

You can rotate so you can get both. Practice getting consistent but then mix things up and experiment when it's time. Keeps you from being bored if the skill gap is larger as well.

Is it weird that I feel like my neutral is more intentional when I play falco compared to marth? I just play falco in friendlies and stuff but I swear sometimes I feel way more in tune with what I'm choosing to do and why whenI play him. It might just be a change in perspective or that my gameplan with falco is simpler and easier to think about but idrk. And my falco is definitely worse than my marth on pretty much all fronts despite this. Anyone else have a similar experience?

I felt similarly when I was still an up and coming player. I believe this is because Falco forces neutral to be around his laser game which is a concrete thing instead of threat ranges and a few moves as Marth does. I think Marth players that zone more and consciously see the moves have an effect on the opponent can mitigate this somewhat.

PP, how do you discern your dash dances between reads and reactions? Do every little dash you do you look for cues to react to? That little advice you gave to quixotic to confirm after the shield seems pretty fast to me, but upon slowing it down it seems feasible to achieve with reactions if you notice the little cues perhaps. So many Marth mains like me on first glance would dismiss that as something to read/commit and "might as well dash back," but you say otherwise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6E6Zp5sYvs&feature=youtu.be&t=9s - I'm thinking that you read Armada's dash with dash forward, and somehow you reacted to Armada falling down the the side plat and faired him? Or is that me overanalyzing and it was a double read.

Additionally, when do you distinguish when you want to dash as opposed to WD? I find that often you do your patented WD back WD in thing particularly against Marth/Sheik, but you generally opt to do dash dances against spacies and such. Is it because WD takes more time to set up whereas dashes are meant for frame-tight repositions? If given time to setup, do you think WD back is superior to dash back?

Upon further discussion, your dash dances are actually insane the more I think about it to the point where idk if anyone can actually faithfully replicate it. So many have tried and the results are eh. I'll do my best to actually try to understand, but it'll certainly take a while to even crack the surface.

You build your dashes into sets, just like compound movements such as WD Dtilt. Sets can be in 2 or 3. Long dashes and short. Long dashes help you observe since you're spending less time moving and they are also encouraging your opponent to act, especially if you dash in since you go farther and get closer to them. Shorter dashes help you readjust space minutely and give higher tempo. So all of that is probably really confusing, which is why I don't feel like I should normally explain it. I feel like instead I should just say design little dash sets and give yourself at least one space to observe, and then find ways to transition between dash sets or doing regular attack/defense strings. Even if you just slow down more and get more time to react, it's often better than doing mindless actions/actions only looking for specific things at specific times faster.

It's difficult for me to directly tell since I don't have extra clues here and remember my reactions were definitely worse than they could've been in this tourney, but I do think I was going to dash in anyway and just continued as he did, and then predicted he'd run off since he kept going close to edge so I jumped as he went off. It was a combination of reaction and prediction as it always is, but my reactions were a big part of why it worked. I'm not sure I'd recommend analyzing all of my dashes in this way as it could cause more harm than good, but it couldn't hurt to ask me about.

To go back to your first questions, I do have little cues I'm looking for, such as when I move in how is an opponent forced to respond, and then I go into a new setup from there that could cover likely next steps and give me a new reaction/prediction.

WD has more lag than dash, meaning it can't be interrupted. So I would be more likely to use it farther away and/or if I was pretty sure the opponent would not attack. That's for forward WD, but backward WD is better against deeper approaches as you go farther back and can also hold down during the lag. WD back also lets you keep facing forward, which helps you get more Dtilt/grab/Fair/Fsmashes. Dash back is better going backward if you need to go back less or if you're less sure they will go in.

My DD is...extremely difficult to recreate. I wouldn't recommend it. Continuing to poke around with it and building your own dash setups is fine, but I am not sure working on my style of DD would really benefit people over just learning a more effective punish game or learning basic options and mixups in matchups for example.