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Important Carefully Ask EG.PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Cactuar, Oct 4, 2007.

  1. Cactuar

    Cactuar
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    El Fuego

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    Title explains the purpose of the thread. Or I hope so anyway.

    Please try and make a significant number of the questions Marth related to prevent the thread from being closed due to spam.

    Other questions are welcome and encouraged though. :laugh:

    I will edit some of the better question and answers to this first post.

    If I feel your question is not legit or worth answering, I will likely answer it with a heavily sarcastic comment. These will probably be the answers most worth reading.
     
  2. Junpappy

    Junpappy
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    Smash Lord

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  3. B-Will

    B-Will
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    BRoomer

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    I was waiting for you to make a thread like this. About time. :)

    Automatic sticky for now.

    EDIT: After I clean up the other stickies; there are too many of them right now.
     
  4. Betrayed

    Betrayed
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    Smash Ace

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    Is is better to play defensive or offensive against a Ganon? I usually have trouble with them, but it doesn't seem like I should.
     
    Stride1 likes this.
  5. Emblem Lord

    Emblem Lord
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    The Legendary Lord

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    Charles are you attempting to undermine me and my Q&A thread?!

    *Shakes head

    I thought we were cool man!!!!
     
    NJzFinest likes this.
  6. UMBC Super Smasher

    UMBC Super Smasher
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    Smash Lord

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    haha yeah, this seems pretty similar to that thread.

    Cactuar, can you give me any advice based off of my videos on youtube? Personally, I think I just need to get some more practice in against people better than me and I'll improve, but maybe there is still something I'm missing?

    oh, and I've meant to ask M2K this, but since you're his pupil, I'll ask you; how can I consistently wavedash quickly onto the stage like M2K does in every game? What makes it so M2K can do it consistently and 99.9% of other players cannot?
     
  7. pockyD

    pockyD
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    Smash Legend

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    if you could characterize yourself in two words, what would they be?
     
    Birdsnest likes this.
  8. Emblem Lord

    Emblem Lord
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    The Legendary Lord

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    pockyD I can anwser that.

    Arrogant cactus.
     
  9. Bass.

    Bass.
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    Smash Journeyman

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    I saw around the board that fox can shine marth out of a chain grab below 18% (or 19% I forget which) Is this true? If so is this with DI or not?
     
  10. pockyD

    pockyD
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    Smash Legend

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    it's just practice; there's no true technique to it, just learn the timing -_-
     
  11. Aiko

    Aiko
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    Smash Champion

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    Can marth chaingrab pika? I was expermenting a little and fthrow seems to work from around 30% to 60% where i can tipper to death. Can this be DI'd out of?
     
  12. Europhoria

    Europhoria
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    Smash Lord

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    How do I smash DI Fox's U-air? I read somewhere that I need to DI as if I were dash dancing in air to avoid taking the second hit O.o
     
  13. Retroking2000

    Retroking2000
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    Smash Master

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    good question i would also like to know the answer .... but i think the uair has to 2 windows of the animation
    so you smash DI out of the first window
    hopes this helps man
     
  14. Imperial Wraith

    Imperial Wraith
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    Smash Journeyman

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    This is false :) Lowest % A Fox can shine out of a non pivoted chaingrab is 27%
     
  15. ArcNatural

    ArcNatural
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    Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)

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    If you get upthrown you can smash DI out of the upair by not DIing the upthrow then doing the "dashdancing" method in the air. If you can dashdance very tightly or consistently do Sheik's dash dance that is sufficient to be able to get out of upairs (not gauranteed but when your good at it it can work at a fairly good rate). You can also DI behind Fox on the upthrow, ASDI up with the C-stick and try to smash DI forward when the Fox attempts the upair and this also works. Both work but I think the dashdance one has a better chance of success.
     
  16. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic
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    Smash Hero

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    For the people asking about smash DI.
    http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218

    I personally like the quarter circle DI method for smash DIing fox's uair, because at least then I know which way I'm going to go after the first hit. That's also the method I use for ledgeteching, so it's more natural for me than dashdancing in the air. Not that doing it that way is hard, it's just that I find the other way more effective.
     
  17. Eggz

    Eggz
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    Smash Hero

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    Cactuar, what is your first name? And how is your baysian haircut treating you?
     
    Diana's Safe Landing likes this.
  18. Mew2King

    Mew2King
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    King of the Mews

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    Charles Meighen
     
  19. Eggz

    Eggz
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    Smash Hero

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    I asked Cactuar ya big jerk. >=[

    jaykay m2k, <3 you and your biceps.
     
  20. Miggz

    Miggz
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    Pancake Sandwiches

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    Come Bermuda M2K!! I wana play ya! Plus its an aweosme place to take a vacation. I would come Jersey but I got to go to the Bahamus to play some friends. Oh and congrats. for your win in SCC. XD

    Oh and Cactuar, would ya mind giving me some tips for a turnip happy Peach who only stands a chance against me on Jungle Japes? I can't get past her wll of turnips. :/

    Of course any other level I **** this particular Peach with Marth. ^^
     
  21. Betrayed

    Betrayed
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    Smash Ace

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    10,000 needles.
     
  22. DoH

    DoH
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    meleeitonme.tumblr.com

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    Why are you so amazing?

    And what can Peach do to **** up Marth?
     
  23. Gea

    Gea
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    Smash Master

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    Spread her legs. Everyone knows Peach's fruit is rotten.
     
  24. Cactuar

    Cactuar
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    El Fuego

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    You spam dair too much. Learn how to wavedash out of shield quickly and consistently. This includes learning the shield hit stun from moves from pretty much every character so that you can move asap after getting hit. You don't seem like you know how to combo Jiggles very well. At low percents, it's easy to link a fair into fsmash, or fair into a couple more aerials into whatever. Try not to do a lot of unnecessary moves around mid percents as you want to be able to kill in those percents. The more dairs and such you do to jiggs in the middle of the stage, the harder its going to be to kill her unless you land a lucky fsmash (unlikely because its slow) or an utilt at higher percents. Sometimes I get lucky with upb out of shield vs higher percentage characters, but that's harder to bait a jiggs into because of the aerial movement after she attacks.

    You also need to play a bit more patient, while still baiting the opponent. You are kinda all over the place. Learn to control a part of the stage, and push the opponent enough that they push back.



    You should rarely limit yourself to playing just one style in any matchup, though defensive styles ultimately should be used in more situations than offensive ones. VS Ganon, Marth has a lot of options. Just get used to Marth's superior movement game and learn how to space effectively. Don't just spam moves, as Ganon has good range himself and can hit you through spam. Generally, push into a Ganon enough that they jump, then respond to what they do.

    Become abusive with grabs. I generally upthrow at low percents then wait for them to either fall and tech (I techchase), or jump. If they jump, **** them. At mid to high percents, use fthrow or dthrow and learn your own method of followup. (Note: Mix up the throws, you don't have to use any move 100% just because I said it. I say these things with the intention of you using it most of the time, not all.)



    Comparing your Q&A thread to mine is like comparing your Marth to mine. :laugh:
    (And just so you don't get some snappy comeback notion coming into your head, your Marth is inferior to mine in every way. And don't you forget it.)

    Seriously though, do your thing. I'm just giving people another source of advice should they choose to use it.



    I don't really like giving advice based on videos. The greatest tool for improvement definitely is just getting experience, and paying attention while you are playing. Don't just play for the hell of it. Make sure you are learning something while playing. Watch people and see what strategies they use and try to adapt those strategies to your own play style. The biggest problem with a lot of people in their improvement is that they don't know what to work on. Know your flaws and minimize them.

    Wavedashing onto stage consistently is really just muscle memory. Mew2King just has his to the point that it's near frame perfect >.>



    Arrogant Cactus

    In my experience, if the Marth is perfect, this is not true. But no one is perfect, even M2K. There is decent room for error on the cg though, so don't rely on trying to shine out. Good DI is still the best choice imo.


    This can be DI'd out of.



    If you are good at watching the direction of the fox coming up, you can slam the stick away from the middle of the fox and get out of the second hit pretty easily. If you can't watch, just slam it one direction upon getting hit by the first hit (note: this means after the first hit hits you, the frame gap is kinda small), and you should notice your character shift. It's timing and it takes practice. I don't like the dash dancing in the air thing because I tend to do it too quickly and smash DI out and back into the second hit.

    Charles. And my Baysian haircut is gone >.> All that remains is a layered mess of hair. :laugh:



    Ban Japes? If you only have a problem with her there, you should just learn the stage better. I usually go Fox when people counterpick Japes.



    Because I'm a Cactus, obviously. :laugh:

    Peach gets ***** by (campy) Marth. The first step for a Peach player to beat Marth is for that player to learn Sheik. :(
     
  25. UMBC Super Smasher

    UMBC Super Smasher
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    Smash Lord

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    Aye, I just wish I could speed up my improving process by playing more and against more good players. I'm having to improve as much as possible on my own without even playing, which makes things much more difficult than just playing a lot and slowly working out each quirk or weakness in my game.
     
  26. Scar

    Scar
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    #HarveyDent

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    lol QFT. <3 Cactuar.

    Hey Cactus, I'm trying to learn to play Marth because apparently I'm getting boring to play against, considering I only play one character. What should I do?

    Also, I'm trying to improve my sex appeal by emulating you, but I don't want to try to hard to be you, because I know I'll just fail. Should I continue working my own style or completely abandon it and become an inferior version of you?
     
    BrothChiler likes this.
  27. Virgilijus

    Virgilijus
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    Nonnulli Laskowski praestant

    • Back Roomer
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    I have a friend who has started to main Jigglypuff. Now, I can consistently beat him pretty handedly but when he becomes mildly aggressive and begins approaching with well spaced double short hop b-airs it can give me some problems; he randomly empty short hops just out of range to keep me guessing with f-tilts and f-smashes while the b-airs are well spaced enough that I can't shield grab out of the second hit. Every once in a while I bait him into range and get a grab or a tippered f-smash, but if I barely miss he can really punish me if I'm near the edge with Jiggs edge guarding. Advice?
     
  28. AthrunZala

    AthrunZala
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    hey cactuar just a couple of things.

    1. my friend plays link and i have trouble with him because he is always jumping away throwinbg bombs and boomerangs. this is not to mention that when i get close to do a fsamsh he is always either just out of range and he grabs me or he will be in range and shield and grab me. so what combos can i learn to do on a link that are effective and what moves are better to use against a link other then fsmash?

    2. how did you get better and waht advice can you give a person to get better. i mean me and my friends play a lot but we rarely improve. is there any thing that i can do by myself to practice and get better when i have like 30 min. with nothing to do at home?

    thats all thanks.
     
  29. cablepuff

    cablepuff
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    Smash Ace

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    1.) So how does marth deal with turnip spamming peaches
    2.) dash attack (only when he is near you or when you jump...) .
    3.) which way do you di forward throw and down throw?
     
  30. cablepuff

    cablepuff
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    Smash Ace

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    On what character match up (and stages) would these characters do better than marth and why? i.e. you much rather use doc instead of marth against say peach on mute city (not because your better with doc but because doc does overall better..due to ..blah blah blah blah).

    a.) doc





    b.) falco



    c.) fox




    d.) ice climbers






    e.) mario






    f.) captain falcon.
     
  31. Cactuar

    Cactuar
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    El Fuego

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    You just need to work on overall skill level, not character variety. Takes time.

    Having a unique style is everything. But some styles are inferior to others. :laugh:


    This sounds more like a matter of knowing each others styles. Generally, these are the kinds of things you should develop on your own in response to your friend doing very specific things vs you. The best advice I can give for that kind of alternating attacking is to have a response to the empty jumps that would stop an actual attack if it was one and that would also prevent you from getting punished. Marth can generally fair and get away faster than a puff can attack, you just need to learn the right timing and responses for his movement on your own.



    I do a lot of really generic stuff vs link to be honest. Don't just fsmash someone whenever they are in range. That will only get you baited easier and punished heavily. I have a heavy grab game vs link as he's somewhat easy to tech chase, and it's not hard to start aerial combos vs him from the uthrow. Grounded, I go for a lot of late uairs to start combos. Comboing link is as easy as keeping fair tipper spacing. If you are near a side of the stage, go for simple weak moves into fsmash as it's really easy to edgeguard Link.

    I don't really practice by myself. Whenever I do I just work on fluidity. Just practice moving as soon as possible after every possible action.

    Space close enough to the Peach that they are scared to spam turnips.

    Good movement so you can punish missed dash attacks. If you bait them enough and punish them for it every time, they eventually stop using it.

    I DI the forward throw to the corner I'm being thrown towards. The down throw should be DI'd either back or slight back.


    This is more dependent on what character you are more comfortable with. I use Fox on pretty much every counterpick stage. It would be kinda dumb to try and pick up more than 2 or 3 characters for stage dependent reasons.
     
  32. Betrayed

    Betrayed
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    Smash Ace

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    How do you play if you're a cactus?

    If I'm trying to edgeguard a recovering Mario...

    I get on the edge for a potential bair or dair on his return, but I usually get knocked off by a fireball. Is there a simple solution to this that I'm missing?

    If I don't get on the edge, I usually miss a d-tilt or f-smash. Can Mario sweetspot so that I can't hit him like this, or am I just needing to work on my timing?
     
  33. Cactuar

    Cactuar
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    El Fuego

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    Expensive custom controllers.


    Don't both with getting on the ledge in most cases unless it's a low recovery. It's much easier to just jump out and hit them through their projectiles (note: hitting them as soon as they do it, you have a sword...). Mario has an enormous room for error on sweet spotting the ledge as he can grab it from way below the actual ledge, so don't bother trying to fsmash it. Dtilt in case they miss the sweet spot, wd back if they grab the ledge and develop your own edgeguard from there.
     
  34. SheerMadness

    SheerMadness
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    Smash Master

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    Hey ummm...

    How do I beat an insanely technical/fast fox?

    I love playing Marth vs spacies but my friend Colbol rapes me.

    How should I go about owning him?
     
  35. RaynEX

    RaynEX
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    Colonel RTSD

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    That single line has helped my overall speed with my Marth so much. All the random free time I have at home translated into actual fluidity. I used to be ridiculously predictable. I didn't realize how fluidity could affect your gameplay. Seriously, sitting down with your ipod or something and just randomly moving around for a half hour makes a difference.


    Chaingrab :)
     
  36. Zone

    Zone
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    Smash Champion

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    Question#1: How do you deal with lazers from falco? I normally duck if it's shot high, counter if he lazers really close to me, and if it's aimed low I get on some platforms. But If there are no platforms and he's good at aiming them low, I feel a bit vulnerable up in the air w/o a platform, to dodge low lazers(by jumping). I also don't like letting him approach me while i'm shielding as it leads into a grab for Falco.
    [Note: I try not to let his aerials get in my shield range. but his lazers cripple my usually retreated f-airs and such.

    Question#2: How do you wall tech as people hit you out of up+B? C-stick to the edge and hit L?

    Question#3: Do you like pumpkin pie?

    Question#4: What do you do if you upthrow a shiek and she di's Into you kinda. From my experience uptilt doesn't really lead into anything unless they dI a abit away so the tip can hit them. I guess and example would be if you upthrow sheik and she DI's like a fox would to force you to pivot grab. *of coures talking super low %*

    These are just minor things I've never tried to fix that I ran into recently.

    Question#5: I don't think I have ever been able to Ken Combo a PEach player. They always super DI away after the forward air. Does the Peach have to make a DI mistake for it to work?


    Thanks in advance ^^
     
  37. Saph66

    Saph66
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    Smash Journeyman

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    Hey Cactuar, got a quick questions about ledge teching.

    So for Marth, I up B to sweetspot the edge, and as I go up and I supposed to press L because I know I'm going to get hit, and then smash the control stick into the stage? Will this end up teching the ledge like in videos that I see? They end up facing the opposite way after teching though. How to do this?

    Thanks Cactus!
     
  38. Cactuar

    Cactuar
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    El Fuego

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    Haha, Colbol is ridiculous against Marth. Last time I played him, I hadn't really worked on my Marth vs tech/fast Fox game and he ***** me. I've had a bunch of practice vs fast Foxes over the past few months but it came down to me having to rework my game to be slightly more aggressive. Just waiting and trying to react to Fox will get you hurt as Fox can literally run circles around you.

    Before working on that matchup, I would just ditto Fox players. I beat Colbol at pound2 with Fox, and unfortunately suicided 2 out of 3 stock at FC vs him and lost in pools. I sucked at FC. :laugh:

    My Falco game is completely based on being able to move quickly on the ground despite lasers. I've spent a lot of time working on being able to move out of the shield stun of a laser with wavedashes, and it lets me really mess up laser approach spacing. This is just my personal strategy and I don't think any other Marth players, other than the ones I've taught this to, do something like this. It's a bit complicated, but boiled down its like this: Falco approaches in set increments most of the time. 1 unit of this increment is equal to the distance the Falco covers while doing a SHL. You want to constantly reposition yourself so that you are always at a .5 of a distance away from the Falco, optimally at .5 or 1.5. If they get impatient and try to attack, you can easily punish with a quick fair out of shield, or grab, or whatever you want really. It's something you really need to think about and practice to implement properly.

    I wall tech by just holding towards the stage after upbing then hitting L somewhere in about a 5 frame gap before I'm hit. You don't have to bother with any of that C-stick nonsense. It's pretty easy with Marth. You want to ride the stage if you want to ledgetech easily though, so in many cases it might be better to try a slightly away from stage sweetspot and actually grab the ledge.

    Pumpkin pie is amazing. It's definitely up there with my favorite desserts. Gotta be generous with the whipped cream though. :laugh:

    I have bad habits because I play against M2Sheik and he always does the best thing for the situation. At 0% to slightly higher (less than 10), M2K will not DI the upthrow at all and come down with a nair. The nair comes out faster than the utilt will hit him, so I just upthrow him and shield, then shield grab his nair. At around 10 percent until low 20's, an up tilt will combo a Sheik. If you don't tip the uptilt, I'd suggest following where they go but keep good spacing from them and just reapproaching them. If it tips, I usually follow it with a tipped uair into a chain of fairs. Learning how to tip your aerials mid combo is important. If she does that slight DI, try doing a reverse utilt. Play around with it as it hits a different area at a different time with the tip.

    I rarely go for Ken combos vs Peach. There is just a lot of easier stuff to do to her. Her DI does have to be bad, unless she is at a mid percent and you tip the fair. Tipped fairs send an opponent up in front of you rather than pushing them, and it stuns them for a significantly longer period of time. Even then, I'd probably go for something stupid like a fair into upb rather than Ken combo them at that percent. :psycho:

    I think I already answered this question but I'll recap: You don't have to smash the control stick or anything. Just upb so that you ride the level, after you upb hold the control stick towards the stage, then when you approach the ledge hit L (all the way down to the actual trigger button). Watching for when your opponent is about to attack you and then hitting L right before you get hit with the attack is better. There is a pretty wide margin of error in how long you have before you get hit to press L. If you just ledgetech normally, you will turn around and start to descend. If you holding up and towards the stage instead of fully towards the stage, you will wall jump tech, which is exactly what it sounds like. Marth's wall jump tech sucks, so try not to do it.
     
  39. RaynEX

    RaynEX
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    Colonel RTSD

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    Maybe you've heard my question a million times already but.

    After watching M2K, I've forced myself into being good at the vs. Shiek match-up with Marth. Any tips/tricks to help me better my game against heR?
     
  40. Col Bol

    Col Bol
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    Smash Champion

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    Yeah you did :D

    Question: How do you win Fox Dittos? :D
     

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