"Card Counting" In Casinos

[M.K]

This is my second thread in the Proving Grounds. This thread is to discuss whether or not "card-counting" should be allowed to take place in casinos around the world.

From Wikipedia:

Card counting is a card game strategy used to determine when a player has a probability advantage. The term is used almost exclusively to refer to the tracking of the ratio of high cards to low cards in blackjack and its derivatives such as Spanish 21, although it is sometimes used to refer to obtaining a count of the distribution or remaining high cards in trick-taking games, such as contract bridge or spades. This article deals only with card counting as it applies to blackjack and its derivatives.

from BlackJackTactics.com:

The entire basis of card counting is to keep track of every single card dealt, so you can adjust your betting pattern to fit how your particular blackjack shoe is going.

Most card counting systems start with a count of 0. This means that when you first sit down at a blackjack table, the count is 0. Depending on which counting system you are using, this count will fluctuate with every card that is dealt. You must keep track of not only the cards that you are being dealt, but every single card dealt to every player and to the dealer.

With most card counting systems you are looking for a positive count. When the card count is positive, this generally means there have been more smaller cards played and the deck now has a higher percentage of larger cards. When the deck has a high percentage of larger cards, the player has several different advantages:

Dealer Will Bust More Often
Player Will Be Dealt More Blackjacks
Player Will Be Dealt Stronger and Higher Starting Hands

When a card count is high, the player bets larger amounts of money because they have a higher mathematical advantage. The card counting doesn't stop here, though. Even when you are betting more and winning more, you still must focus and continue to count cards flawlessly. Once the high count starts to drop and gets either neutral or into the negative, you go back to betting smaller amounts because the casino now has the higher advantage.

Technically, the player is not cheating, but using a complex tactic to increase their odds of winning. This is seen as cheating by many casinos, and Las Vegas casinos began tracking, photographing, and busting card counters, banning them from the casinos.

Here are some questions to consider when responding to this topic:

• Although not illegal, is card counting broken enough to warrant a ban from casinos?
• If a player does not use external devices to aid in card counting, is it technically cheating? (i.e. Iphone app, Phone app)
• Do the risks of card counting outweigh the benefits, or vice versa?

 

[Narukari]

If a casino decides that card counting warrants a ban, then it does. An establishment has the right to refuse service to anybody they choose.

However, most casinos have found a way around the whole card counting issue. If you head to Vegas, you'll rarely find a 1-deck blackjack table. Most are 4-deck, which makes the odds in the house's favor even with card counting.

I personally don't believe card counting is cheating, but I don't believe a casino is in the wrong by throwing out card counters.

 

[Maniclysane]

You can't really tell a person they're not aloud to count the cards. I'd assume people would still count anyways. It's bannable by the Casino, for sure, but it's something that's hard to enforce. Casino's win every time, but it's still bad business to have multiple card counters.

Having multiple decks should barely be legal, because they can just put in tons of cards that would only equal to far above or below 21.

(I don't know card games that well, 21 is the number you're trying to reach in Blackjack, right?

 

[Narukari]

Having multiple decks should barely be legal, because they can just put in tons of cards that would only equal to far above or below 21.

What?

I don't know if you quite understand how blackjack works. They don't add in new cards, they just shuffle 4 decks together to make a 208 card deck. This new deck will have 4 of every card that was originally in the single deck.

 

[Maniclysane]

Oh, my bad. I assumed they would take tons of ones and two's, with Kings and queens, so people wouldn't be able to achieve the 21. I didn't know they would take multiple decks and add them up.

 

[Cheapless Jared]

I think you should play the games that are much more to your benefit, and are easier, instead of being rigged, like a carnival game. I feel this should be allowed, becuase some gambling is rigged.

 

[Wrath`]

Card counting is not as broken as meta-knight

I can see why casinos would ban counting, but it's not cheating, it's using your brain wich is a good thing. The only way I guess they could not ban it, is to have a maximum cap on how much you can earn per casino stay, but this would be to cumbersome to enforce, so I guess banning is the only thing they can do.

The benifits outweigh the risks, especialy if you know your limitis, or can dectect when the guards find you semi suspisious.

 

[yummynbeefy]

i think its a legit strategy tbh if they have the skill to do it then they should be allowed

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

How can a casino enforce this, if it was banned? Personally, I can't really think of a way it would be possible. I mean, it's done in your head, you can't go through peoples' minds... If someone knows how to do it, then they must be quick and smart, and you can't really ban playing intelligently. Casinos game the system, that's essentially what Card-Counting is, but not exactly "cheating." It should be considered a legitimate thing to do.

 

[M.K]

How can a casino enforce this, if it was banned? Personally, I can't really think of a way it would be possible. I mean, it's done in your head, you can't go through peoples' minds... If someone knows how to do it, then they must be quick and smart, and you can't really ban playing intelligently. Casinos game the system, that's essentially what Card-Counting is, but not exactly "cheating." It should be considered a legitimate thing to do.

Casinos remove people that are acting "suspiciously" at tables.
It's done in your head, yes, but it requires extreme focus, and a little acting. If the person is genuinely bad at acting, or loses focus for just a second, they can be foiled out of effective card counting.
Card-counting is less effective when multiple decks are in place, as it has been stated. It lessens the chance that potential card-counters will be able to keep up with multiple decks.

 

[Narukari]

Casinos remove people that are acting "suspiciously" at tables.
It's done in your head, yes, but it requires extreme focus, and a little acting. If the person is genuinely bad at acting, or loses focus for just a second, they can be foiled out of effective card counting.
Card-counting is less effective when multiple decks are in place, as it has been stated. It lessens the chance that potential card-counters will be able to keep up with multiple decks.

You're very close to how multiple decks fixes the situation in the casinos. (sorry about nagging on about it, but I think it's very important to why card counting is no longer a problem)

With four decks, even if a person knows exactly what cards remain in the deck based on the surrounding hands, the odds will never fall out of the house's favor.

How can a casino enforce this, if it was banned? Personally, I can't really think of a way it would be possible. I mean, it's done in your head, you can't go through peoples' minds... If someone knows how to do it, then they must be quick and smart, and you can't really ban playing intelligently. Casinos game the system, that's essentially what Card-Counting is, but not exactly "cheating." It should be considered a legitimate thing to do.

Unlike criminal law, or at a gaming tournament, the casino does not have to be 100% sure a person is cheating to kick them out. They are allowed to kick out anybody they want. Back when they had single deck blackjack, if a person just came in everyday, made a hundred dollars on the blackjack table, and left, eventually the casino would just kick him out of the casino, and the guy would be put on a blacklist that the casinos shared between each other.

Could the casino prove that the guy was card counting? No, but the casino doesn't have to prove anything to kick someone out of their establishment, they could kick the guy out of their casino if they didn't like the shirt he had on.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Card counting is legal unless one is using some sort of device. Casinos just dont like it of course.

If someone is that good at math and memory they deserve that money imo

 

[Narukari]

Card counting is legal unless one is using some sort of device. Casinos just dont like it of course.

If someone is that good at math and memory they deserve that money imo

Casinos love card counting.

Card counting isn't a hard thing to do. Just start at 0 on a new deck. Every time a 10,J,Q,K,A comes up on the table, add 1 to your number. Every time a 2,3,4,5,6 comes up on the table, subtract one. If you have a high positive number, you know the deck is running low on face cards. If you have a low negative number, you know the deck is full of face cards, and low on small cards. If your near 0, then your odds are staying near the same. Hence why they call it "card counting". It isn't some huge feat of mental prowess.

Even then, using a device that does everything for you is still allowed in casinos.

They want as many people as possible to think they can beat the system in blackjack. Most casino/hotel lobbys have cards that show you how to card count. Someone who thinks they can beat the system will play more blackjack.

Deserve what money? You still lose when you card count. Just a little slower than the guy to the left of you.

The big thing I'm trying to hammer in is that card counting is perfectly fine in casinos, device or not. The casinos will make money off every person who thinks they can make a profit off blackjack.

 

[CT Chia]

It's been mentioned, and it's true, Casinos have the right to kick out whoever they want to. Casinos make a lot of money, and they want to continue doing do. If they see someone making too much, they kick em out. While they are allowed to do this, this is not fair to me. As much as people go to Casinos to win money based off chance, Casinos make money based on chance. Ignoring things like booking shows and events, restaurants, etc, Casino's make most of their money from gambling.
For BlackJack specifically:

For example, although the house edge in blackjack has been calculated at an average of only two percent, casinos expect a win or 'hold' of 15 to 20 percent of the total amount of money brought to the table commonly known as the 'drop', just because of the general incompetence of the players enjoying the game.

Unlike some casino games such as roulette that can still profit off winners, BlackJack makes more money based on the likeliness of people losing.

People winning more money with card counting means more money lost for the casinos. If it's completely done in a player's mind though, then by all means go for it. Do it, you deserve it. If a Casino can make money based on chance (with tactics to increase their chances), then why can't you make money based on chance (with using your own tactics to increase your chances). No devices should be allowed imo, or giant operations like the movie 21 (where they controlled multiple tables).

 

[ArcPoint]

It's been mentioned, and it's true, Casinos have the right to kick out whoever they want to. Casinos make a lot of money, and they want to continue doing do. If they see someone making too much, they kick em out. While they are allowed to do this, this is not fair to me. As much as people go to Casinos to win money based off chance, Casinos make money based on chance. Ignoring things like booking shows and events, restaurants, etc, Casino's make most of their money from gambling.

While it may not be fair, fairness is irrelevant when you're on private property. However it is in the best interests of the casino owner to ensure that people will come back to their casino. So they won't kick people out completely unreasonably, but if they're consistently winning then they might kick someone out.

People winning more money with card counting means more money lost for the casinos. If it's completely done in a player's mind though, then by all means go for it. Do it, you deserve it. If a Casino can make money based on chance (with tactics to increase their chances), then why can't you make money based on chance (with using your own tactics to increase your chances). No devices should be allowed imo, or giant operations like the movie 21 (where they controlled multiple tables).

Yeah, they might lose money. But hey, so is gambling. If a casino feels that card counting via device is a lose-lose for them, then they can stop that. However card counting with your head.... they can't really "ban" a though process. They can, however, kick you out for winning a lot.

 

[Narukari]

It's been mentioned, and it's true, Casinos have the right to kick out whoever they want to. Casinos make a lot of money, and they want to continue doing do. If they see someone making too much, they kick em out. While they are allowed to do this, this is not fair to me. As much as people go to Casinos to win money based off chance, Casinos make money based on chance. Ignoring things like booking shows and events, restaurants, etc, Casino's make most of their money from gambling.
For BlackJack specifically:

Unlike some casino games such as roulette that can still profit off winners, BlackJack makes more money based on the likeliness of people losing.

No, they don't kick out everyone that makes money. For every person who makes $100, there are many others who just lost $100.

Why should I ignore booking shows and events if those are superior in making profits for casinos? I don't know either way, and google has failed me, but how much less money is actually being made from gambling? It might put things into more perspective if events made 10x as much profits as the actual casino.

How does roullette profit off the winners? If I place $100 on black and it turns up black, the casino just lost $100.

People winning more money with card counting means more money lost for the casinos. If it's completely done in a player's mind though, then by all means go for it. Do it, you deserve it. If a Casino can make money based on chance (with tactics to increase their chances), then why can't you make money based on chance (with using your own tactics to increase your chances). No devices should be allowed imo, or giant operations like the movie 21 (where they controlled multiple tables).

Nope, since you have to bet a minimum per hand, and there is usually a maximum bet, you can't make enough money from the stacked deck bets to override the losses you incur from the minimum bets during a newly shuffled deck. The only way to bypass it is "back-counting", which is standing behind the table counting cards until the deck is stacked. This is annoying to both the casino and all the other players at the table. You are essentially making money off their losses.

You CAN make money off casino games. Not everybody goes away from vegas with lighter pockets, but for every person who makes money there are many others who lost money. The casino doesn't just kick out everyone who makes money.

 

[Ryan Ludovic]

Whilst I do not consider it cheating, I don't see how it is possible to totally enforce it if it is done mentally.
Unless they have mind reading skills..?

Or if you are writing stuff down and taking pictures and asking the guy next to you if you have played certian cards last round, then you arent cheating, you're just an annoying douche. haha

 

[Narukari]

Whilst I do not consider it cheating, I don't see how it is possible to totally enforce it if it is done mentally.
Unless they have mind reading skills..?

Or if you are writing stuff down and taking pictures and asking the guy next to you if you have played certian cards last round, then you arent cheating, you're just an annoying douche. haha

It's not done mentally, you physically play differently according to how the deck is stacked. Back in the single-deck blackjack days, If they saw someone on camera consistantly betting based on how the deck is stacked instead of what position their hand is in, then they know that the person is card counting.