Captain Falcon's MANLY Matchup Guide/Discussion Thread Week 16: Yoshi/Sonic

[Zeallyx]

imo, DK isnt that bad a matchup for sheik. o_o and trust me, ive played good donkey kongs that have actually combo'd me at 0% to a DK punch o_o

but on topic, reason why i wont say 70:30 and i say 35 is because of her recovery has two options, tether, or upb. if you simply hold the edge she WILL up b, and if she is close to the ledge or near it a uair can send her back out off stage. its a bad matchup for falcon, but still not as bad nonetheless because falcon does have a few advantages, and she's also pretty light.

dk..matchup..for sheik?
we're on the falcon boards man.

and with what lareit mentioned, sheik is at least 30-70, prolly even 25-75.

 

[Darxmarth23]

25-75.

Hands down.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

dk..matchup..for sheik?
we're on the falcon boards man.

and with what lareit mentioned, sheik is at least 30-70, prolly even 25-75.

i meant dk for falcon

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Then you've never played a good Sheik.

And you've never played a good falcon. Lets have lunch.
Except that I have played a good sheik, but he quit brawl a few months ago.



Anyways, I never got the hang of DIing out of ftilt online, cuz its gay and I can't SDI online XD

DI towards sheik, you'll probably have enough time to land and shield. I also don't think its 0-death either :|

Seriously, you're acting as if falcon is a spacy here. He's not.

Still, sheik's ground game is superior, and needles force approach and can't be clashed with falcon kick because there's alot of em. Sheik eliminates aerial approaches with utilt or uair/fair, and can switch to zelda for KO options, however becoming EXCEEDINGLY VULNERABLE at that time. I'm not gonna argue swapping, thats all BS to me *this'll turn into another PK trainer debate*

So I'll give sheik the benefit of the doubt and say 35:65 or 30:70

I'm leaning towards 35:65 because of sheik's predictable recovery and low killing power.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

i really believe the match up would be 35:65. the tilt lock isnt as bad as it seems and she does have a few problems koing (unless you got mindgamed, ouch!) and like i stated before, and others before me, predictable recovery and she's somewhat light. i really disagree with 25:75 because thats waaay too close to metaknight's match up and i dont see myself getting 2 or 3 stocked by sheik too often which does happen occasionally when i face metaknight with falcon.

so.. we still talking about ZSS right? cuz im still with 60:40 for that..i havent played many ZSS's but just from experience.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

There's a ZSS i know, but he's always playing gears. All I know is that ZSS is pretty beast.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

There's a ZSS i know, but he's always playing gears. All I know is that ZSS is pretty beast.

but majority. i've played 3 ZSS's and you've played that guy who's beastly. lets try and get a summed up number. what would you say that match up is from your experience and why?

 

[SaltyKracka]

65:35, at least. One Dsmash = Dead Falcon.

 

[Zeallyx]

i really believe the match up would be 35:65. the tilt lock isnt as bad as it seems and she does have a few problems koing (unless you got mindgamed, ouch!) and like i stated before, and others before me, predictable recovery and she's somewhat light. i really disagree with 25:75 because thats waaay too close to metaknight's match up and i dont see myself getting 2 or 3 stocked by sheik too often which does happen occasionally when i face metaknight with falcon.

so.. we still talking about ZSS right? cuz im still with 60:40 for that..i havent played many ZSS's but just from experience.

The tilt lock actually is bad. as she can tilt lock>Usmash, wich can KO.
and her needles are quite a pain too..

I'd say 25-75, sheiks advantage..maybe even 80-20..she really is a hard matchup for falcon.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

The tilt lock actually is bad. as she can tilt lock>Usmash, wich can KO.
and her needles are quite a pain too..

I'd say 25-75, sheiks advantage..maybe even 80-20..she really is a hard matchup for falcon.

ive been tilt locked before but never ever to death with a usmash. even without DI (unless for some reason you want to DI sideways). have you tried smash DI or if you cant get out just keep trying to do uair so the usmash doesnt hit. the needles i dont mind because i am always near sheik and her recovery is pretty predictable so you have a slight advantage there. i refuse to believe metaknight and sheik are that close in difficulty because i find it way harder to fight meta. id rather sheik over meta. so im sticking with 65:35

 

[Darxmarth23]

I'm now 75-25 or 80-20 on this one.

Sheik will kill us with r-tilt lock > u-smash and she out prioritizes us. Thats good enough for me not to go falcon on sheik anyway. I would CP with a character.

My post on sheiks offstage game is on the other page.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Skip, you keep chiming in with how predictable Sheik's recovery is, but you forget one thing. Alright, two things.

The first is that she has a better recovery than Falcon.

The second is that Falcon's recovery is much more predictable than hers, and Sheiks excel at gimping.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

65:35, at least. One Dsmash = Dead Falcon.

Dsmash? Uhhh

I'm now 75-25 or 80-20 on this one.

Sheik will kill us with r-tilt lock > u-smash and she out prioritizes us. Thats good enough for me not to go falcon on sheik anyway. I would CP with a character.

My post on sheiks offstage game is on the other page.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
You guys are making this sound bad.

I'll adjust to 30-70

 

[Darxmarth23]

Dsmash? Uhhh



Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
You guys are making this sound bad.

I'll adjust to 30-70

It IS bad. Sheik has an answer to a lot of our moves and tricks.

 

[Wogrim]

65:35, at least. One Dsmash = Dead Falcon.

If 1 FTilt = dead Falcon (as in 0-death combo) I'll go 30-70. Is DSmash a typo?

 

[SaltyKracka]

I'm talking about ZSS. Her Dsmash and stungun setups generally end with you getting comboed all over the place.

Not to mention her jab is faster than Falcon's, her utilt beats out just about every aerial approach, and Falcon can't gimp her.

 

[Zeallyx]

If 1 FTilt = dead Falcon (as in 0-death combo) I'll go 30-70. Is DSmash a typo?

more like 20-80, sheiks advantage.
If I recall correctly, DK is a 75-25 matchup, and sheik is harder.

 

[Dxkid]

im up to 30/70-LOL with shiek

i played a sheik a player again i didnt survive

as for ZSS dont have much expericence but ima say 35-65

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

more like 20-80, sheiks advantage.
If I recall correctly, DK is a 75-25 matchup, and sheik is harder.

LOL WTF? Dk is a 75-25? you people cant be serious.

 

[Wogrim]

I'm talking about ZSS. Her Dsmash and stungun setups generally end with you getting comboed all over the place.

Not to mention her jab is faster than Falcon's, her utilt beats out just about every aerial approach, and Falcon can't gimp her.

From what I remember ZSS has something like Stungun DSmash DSmash Grab pummel DThrow USmash. Sure you'll get like 40% damage but that's not 1 DSmash = Death. If she's got some better combos I haven't seen let me know.

From what I know she's 35-65

more like 20-80, sheiks advantage.
If I recall correctly, DK is a 75-25 matchup, and sheik is harder.

Sheik is harder but I don't agree with anything more than 40-60 on DK

 

[Player-3]

LOL WTF? Dk is a 75-25? you people cant be serious.

....
how many GOOD DKs have you played..

 

[Zeallyx]

LOL WTF? Dk is a 75-25? you people cant be serious.

Nah wait, DK is a 65-35 if I recall it correctly this time.
doesn't take away the fact sheik is 75-25/20-80 material

and ehm..these 'you people' you speak of, have right on a little more respect than you give them.

 

[Player-3]

Nah wait, DK is a 65-35 if I recall it correctly this time.
doesn't take away the fact sheik is 75-25/20-80 material

and ehm..these 'you people' you speak of, have right on a little more respect than you give them.

i still disagree with that ratio
>_>

but sheik i never play so i have no idea

DK should be higher... bah maybe i need to turn into one of you telegraphed falcons, then it might make more sense
]:

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Nah wait, DK is a 65-35 if I recall it correctly this time.
doesn't take away the fact sheik is 75-25/20-80 material

and ehm..these 'you people' you speak of, have right on a little more respect than you give them.

well i apologize if you were offended but 75-25 just really made lol hard. maybe the people i've played dont take falcon seriously or who knows, maybe they just plain suck or don't know the match because their arent many falcon mains. But we aren't discussing donkey kong so ill save that argument for whenever ;P

but i really disagree with sheik being 80-20 because thats metaknight, and metaknight is more frustrating for me than sheik. at least if sheik is off stage, i have hope, metaknight, i can attempt and offstage approach, let alone an onstage one. in comparison to metaknight and playing falcon against sheik is why i say she cant be 20 or 25. im leaning toward the 70-30 because she can jab through falcon's jab or pretty much her jab stops all of falcon's everything. 70:30/65:35 for me.

 

[Zeallyx]

well i apologize if you were offended but 75-25 just really made lol hard. maybe the people i've played dont take falcon seriously or who knows, maybe they just plain suck or don't know the match because their arent many falcon mains. But we aren't discussing donkey kong so ill save that argument for whenever ;P

but i really disagree with sheik being 80-20 because thats metaknight, and metaknight is more frustrating for me than sheik. at least if sheik is off stage, i have hope, metaknight, i can attempt and offstage approach, let alone an onstage one. in comparison to metaknight and playing falcon against sheik is why i say she cant be 20 or 25. im leaning toward the 70-30 because she can jab through falcon's jab or pretty much her jab stops all of falcon's everything. 70:30/65:35 for me.

I thought MK was 90-10
well, if MK is, indeed, 80-20, I'd have to go with falcon vs sheik beeing 75-25, sheiks advantage, as sheik is a hard matchup, but she aint MK.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I thought MK was 90-10
well, if MK is, indeed, 80-20, I'd have to go with falcon vs sheik beeing 75-25, sheiks advantage, as sheik is a hard matchup, but she aint MK.

MK is 90-10. I though we left that match-up alone. No way in hell is MK going to be lower than that. If anyone wants to debate me, PM.

Sheik is close, but the statement above in bold is the truth.

:bandit:

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I thought MK was 90-10
well, if MK is, indeed, 80-20, I'd have to go with falcon vs sheik beeing 75-25, sheiks advantage, as sheik is a hard matchup, but she aint MK.

i was referring to the match-up chart and it stated meta is 80-20. but since thats what i thought it was, thats why i was trying to say sheik isnt like meta the whole time >.<

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

I found the ZSS guy, he actually wanted to brawl today *before going off to play more gears*

I'd say 35:65, ZSS will have a tougher time spacing her side b for KO's, and if falcon gets below her he can mess her up a bit. Shnairs are exceedingly effective as well.

 

[Lareit]

Shiek might be easier to fight but in the ability to win, when 1 f-tilt can easily =death. I don't see how she can't be anything but 90/10. Maybe if Falcon had a projectile game or safer poke options to avoid getting in tilt range it'd be a different story but for falcon to fight and damage at all he has to put himself right there in 0-death move range.

And considering it IS 0-death by large any good shiek is going to focus their entire game around camping with needles to force an approach that sets you up for easy death.

Also DK is **** but not as bad as DDD. IMO those 2 need their ratio's reversed.


ZSS isn't terrible. FF U-airs and SH N-airs are effective at getting past her plasma wipe spacing game and getting in close limits her options since her grab is terrible. Falcon is a heavy, however, and d-smash combo's are easy to pull off on heavies so watch yourself there.

60/40

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Shiek might be easier to fight but in the ability to win, when 1 f-tilt can easily =death. I don't see how she can't be anything but 90/10. Maybe if Falcon had a projectile game or safer poke options to avoid getting in tilt range it'd be a different story but for falcon to fight and damage at all he has to put himself right there in 0-death move range.

And considering it IS 0-death by large any good shiek is going to focus their entire game around camping with needles to force an approach that sets you up for easy death.

Also DK is **** but not as bad as DDD. IMO those 2 need their ratio's reversed.


ZSS isn't terrible. FF U-airs and SH N-airs are effective at getting past her plasma wipe spacing game and getting in close limits her options since her grab is terrible. Falcon is a heavy, however, and d-smash combo's are easy to pull off on heavies so watch yourself there.

60/40

yay someone agree. 60/40 for ZSS ^^
im thinking 70:30 for sheik still because falcon can really work her over on her recovery if ya time it. sheik is bad but i dont think she's metaknight bad

 

[Lareit]

yay someone agree. 60/40 for ZSS ^^
im thinking 70:30 for sheik still because falcon can really work her over on her recovery if ya time it. sheik is bad but i dont think she's metaknight bad

I used to play ZSS when I got bored of winning with Snake and before I found the fun of struggling with Falcon.

At first I felt it was a nightmare matchup like all the rest but once I got comfortable with it, it worked out alright. Plasma whip is ineffective against falcon and the lack of effective shield grab game gives falcon alot of room to work.

and i'm not going to repeat myself about shiek, but she really is as scary as I made her out to be in competent hands. Just how many shiek mains exist is the problem to prove the point.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

@Lareit

You used to main snake? Whhoooooaaaaaaaa. I picked up falcon because A) He's pretty awesome B) I love the way his moves flow C) I wanted to see just how hard he was. Pretty awesome to see another *former* snake mainer doing what I did. But I'm keeping snake <_<

I still don't think sheik should get over 30:70. Ftilt lock doesn't work at low percents and SDI can sorely mess up the chain/screw up getting the tipper. After that, its a horrid match for sheik chasing falcon for a KO.

 

[Sukai]

Hey guys, it's been a while!

Ready for my input?

No?

Too Bad!

I know nothing on Naked Samus, so I'm not gonna go there.
But Sheik on the other hand is something I know of.
knuxrouge a.k.a Skye: Sheik main, Falcon secondary.

Starting estimate
Falcon/Sheik
55/45

Falcon has an advantage?
HYES!
In my opinion at least.

Falcon has frame traps as effective as Sheik's and constant jab cancels work fine under the proper situation, Sheik's weight and lack of kill ability is what drags her down the most, granted she can rack up hits like no one's business, but when getting that kill, she can't do so easily, especially since Falcon is on the heavy side, and Sheik...well, isn't.
On the plus side for Sheik, a standing jab can cancel any ground approach Falcon has (maybe except a down smash, but I never tested that), which makes you think why Sakurai hates F-Zero with such passion, if no move can get through a simple jab. Which is why Falcon will need a more air oriented approach, which isn't hard due to Sheik's major ner***e in Brawl. He can knee sheik while she's chain recovering, and he can spike (either with a down air or a Falcon YES stage spike) her while using vanish. On the flip side, Sheik does have assured methods of edge guarding Falcon, but any approach other than airbourne needlestorming, it's high risk, high return, and can be punished if she whiffs her attempt.
To add to Falcon's edge guarding ability, a constant stream of up tilts can spite Sheik's tether recovery, if luckily timed
Sheik's too light to last very long, and her best bet at getting a kill around 120% is switch to Zelda and delivering a nice up smash, or tilt. But then she runs the risk of a mouthful of Falcon Punch upon success of the transformation.

Thats about it, the match is in Falcon favor ever so slightly because Sheik has issues killing, but is more proficient at dying than Falcon is.


HYES!

 

[Lareit]

@Lareit

You used to main snake? Whhoooooaaaaaaaa. I picked up falcon because A) He's pretty awesome B) I love the way his moves flow C) I wanted to see just how hard he was. Pretty awesome to see another *former* snake mainer doing what I did. But I'm keeping snake <_<

I still don't think sheik should get over 30:70. Ftilt lock doesn't work at low percents and SDI can sorely mess up the chain/screw up getting the tipper. After that, its a horrid match for sheik chasing falcon for a KO.

Snake used to be alot of fun, back when no one knew how to fight him. Grenade tricks were common and fun. THen everyone figured it out and grenade tricks simply became a tool to force people into bad approaches. He lost the novelty even as he kept overwhelming power. Falcon is just far too fun to play. I actually enjoy him being bottom tier. I simply wish he wasn't so ****ed overwhelmed by the likes of MK, Marth, Falco and Olimar (now shiek too).


and the shiek killing aspect is flawed. Any smart player who plays shiek(or zelda) is going to master their other ego. Zelda has throw and tilts that kill very well. If shiek damages falcon past F-Tilt to Usmash tipper % she's just going to wait for an opportunity to change long enough to get an easy kill move(they're all fresh) on you.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Snake used to be alot of fun, back when no one knew how to fight him. Grenade tricks were common and fun. THen everyone figured it out and grenade tricks simply became a tool to force people into bad approaches. He lost the novelty even as he kept overwhelming power. Falcon is just far too fun to play. I actually enjoy him being bottom tier. I simply wish he wasn't so ****ed overwhelmed by the likes of MK, Marth, Falco and Olimar (now shiek too).


and the shiek killing aspect is flawed. Any smart player who plays shiek(or zelda) is going to master their other ego. Zelda has throw and tilts that kill very well. If shiek damages falcon past F-Tilt to Usmash tipper % she's just going to wait for an opportunity to change long enough to get an easy kill move(they're all fresh) on you.

I still don't think sheik's tilt lock is as awesome as you're making it out to be. The times I fought a sheik *though they are few*, I got tilt locked the first couple of times, and then realized I needed to DI towards and alternate DIing up and down. If you hit the ground fast enough you can powershield it and get away, if you DI up you can pull out and avoid the tipper. And this is as SNAKE mind you. Falcon would only have it far easier.

 

[t3h n00b]

Falcon has a way faster falling speed if I remember correctly. And while Snake is heavier, weight doesn't affect things that much when you're talking about Bowser only being about 12% heavier than Mario, and I think Falcon and Snake are somewhere in between those two.

 

[Wogrim]

Falcon has a way faster falling speed if I remember correctly. And while Snake is heavier, weight doesn't affect things that much when you're talking about Bowser only being about 12% heavier than Mario, and I think Falcon and Snake are somewhere in between those two.

Weight might affect how much you can SDI?

 

[Zeallyx]

Hey guys, it's been a while!

Ready for my input?

No?

Too Bad!

I know nothing on Naked Samus, so I'm not gonna go there.
But Sheik on the other hand is something I know of.
knuxrouge a.k.a Skye: Sheik main, Falcon secondary.

Starting estimate
Falcon/Sheik
55/45

Falcon has an advantage?
HYES!
In my opinion at least.

Falcon has frame traps as effective as Sheik's and constant jab cancels work fine under the proper situation, Sheik's weight and lack of kill ability is what drags her down the most, granted she can rack up hits like no one's business, but when getting that kill, she can't do so easily, especially since Falcon is on the heavy side, and Sheik...well, isn't.
On the plus side for Sheik, a standing jab can cancel any ground approach Falcon has (maybe except a down smash, but I never tested that), which makes you think why Sakurai hates F-Zero with such passion, if no move can get through a simple jab. Which is why Falcon will need a more air oriented approach, which isn't hard due to Sheik's major ner***e in Brawl. He can knee sheik while she's chain recovering, and he can spike (either with a down air or a Falcon YES stage spike) her while using vanish. On the flip side, Sheik does have assured methods of edge guarding Falcon, but any approach other than airbourne needlestorming, it's high risk, high return, and can be punished if she whiffs her attempt.
To add to Falcon's edge guarding ability, a constant stream of up tilts can spite Sheik's tether recovery, if luckily timed
Sheik's too light to last very long, and her best bet at getting a kill around 120% is switch to Zelda and delivering a nice up smash, or tilt. But then she runs the risk of a mouthful of Falcon Punch upon success of the transformation.

Thats about it, the match is in Falcon favor ever so slightly because Sheik has issues killing, but is more proficient at dying than Falcon is.


HYES!

..falcon does not have the advantage at all.
one cannot have an opinion about a matchup (ratio) as it pretty much consists of facts and experience.

Falcon vs sheik, 80-20, sheiks advantage.

 

[Ayaz18]

meh not 80:20

id say 75:25

I beat a Pikachu with Fox before...........that match-up is like Bowser vs Shiek in melee...........un-winnable

 

[t3h n00b]

Weight might affect how much you can SDI?

I have absolutely 0 experience being ftilt locked by a Shiek, but I think it's possible that even with SDI, you may fall right back into the lock since Falcon falls so quickly, given how many people say it's a problem. I really have no idea how weight or falling speed affect SDI.