Can someone assess my piece of French written work?

[Oxymoron Man]

Link to original post: [drupal=2980]Can someone assess my piece of French written work?[/drupal]



I'm a preliminary French student and I was wondering if anyone here at the User Blogs section could assess my 'essay' to look for any grammatical errors and any advice for me when writing any future 'essays' (I don't like to call them essays because I write far more sophisticated material in many other subjects concerned with arts and humanities; however, I am a beginner at French so my teacher can only rely on me writing these basic arguments). The statement under discussion is whether one should dine with their families or without them.
In advance, I hugely apologise if I have posted this in the wrong place because I wanted to share this with Smashboards but this was the most relevant place I could imagine.

Here it goes (the key to my embarrassment):

"'Diner ou ne diner pas avec votre famille- c

 

[Teran]

Wait are you doing GCSEs or A Levels?

I got an A in my French A Level I'm decent at it. :x

 

[Oxymoron Man]

Wait are you doing GCSEs or A Levels?

I got an A in my French A Level I'm decent at it. :x

GCSEs. Hey, congratulations at your excellent A level result! You must have combined sheer skill with hard work

 

[Teran]

Thanks!

To be honest, I did most of my work on the sciences, I'm just naturally a better linguist.

I'll take a look at your work and post it back up here, I've got nothing better to do.

 

[Oxymoron Man]

Thanks!

To be honest, I did most of my work on the sciences, I'm just naturally a better linguist.

I'll take a look at your work and post it back up here, I've got nothing better to do.

Thank you so much! Well to be honest, as an excellent linguist you should be able to assess this well in less than 3 minutes, I am inclined to believe.

 

[Jim Morrison]

10th grade French ftw.
I'll look at what Teran comes up with.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I remember doing GCSE French. I'm generally not that great at languages, but I somehow managed to get an A in it. I swear they have more irregular verbs than regular ones in French... I've forgotten 80% of it since then though, so I can't really help you. Sorry.

 

[Teran]

Thank you so much! Well to be honest, as an excellent linguist you should be able to assess this well in less than 3 minutes, I am inclined to believe.

On second thought, write it out in English and I'll do the French for you.

I'm not so good at fixing rather than just doing it. The English modern language education system is kinda drab, I can already see with the "amusant" and whatnot.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Ce que je trouve être assez passionnant du dîner avec votre famille, c’est que vous pouvez vous parler et vous pouvez vous écouter. Est-ce pas amusant de discuter votre jour avec votre famille ? En écoutant vos amis de la famille, vous apprendrez une chose ou deux et vous pouvez vous ouvrir et discuter des affaires ou problèmes, ce qui tout le monde peut trouver détendant. Pourquoi pas parler contre le tremblement de terre en Haïti, parler pour la protection de la nature ou mentionner votre journée scolaire. De plus vous ne pouvez pas regarder la télé si vous dînez dans la salle �* manger donc vous pouvez vous parler sérieusement. Finalement, tout le monde peut aider �* faire la cuisine donc les repas seraient meilleurs, contrôlés et sains (il n’aura pas de plats surgelés) ; il y a aurait des fruits, des légumes ou des terrines de porcelet au genièvre, comme des exemples.

Par contre, ce ne sera pas, du moins, bon marché et il y a une possibilité que les dîners deviendront ennuyeux s’ils se trouvent dans la même salle �* manger ; en plus ce sera difficile �* organiser si on arrive plus tard chez vous. Les enfants sont limités en restant �* la table s’ils sentent qu’ils devraient manger, seulement, ailleurs.

Compte tenu de ces raisons, ces nuits de dîner devraient être rares pour faire des économies ; avec ceci vous avez plus �* discuter. Finalement, changez le lieu �* un restaurant de temps en temps.'

Copypasted your story here for ease, it got cut off.

 

[Teran]

If you ever want grammar lessons/advice etc, I'd be happy to give them because you'll never get decent ones at school.

Well unless it's a private one but even then it's not likely.

 

[Oxymoron Man]

On second thought, write it out in English and I'll do the French for you.

I'm not so good at fixing rather than just doing it. The English modern language education system is kinda drab, I can already see with the "amusant" and whatnot.

Well that makes sense:

'What I find quite exciting about dinner with your family is that you can talk to and listen to each other. Is it not fun to discuss your day with your family? Whilst listening to your family friends, you would learn a thing or two and you can open yourself (omit the 'et' here) in order to discuss affairs and issues, which everyone can find relaxing. Why not talk about the earthquake in Haiti, speak for the protection of the environment or even mention your school day. Furthermore you cannot watch TV if you dine in the dining-room therefore you can talk to each other seriously (I want to use a better work here that indicates the lack of television as a distraction to conversation). Finally, everyone can help to cook so the meals will be better, controlled, and healthy (it won't have ready-made meals); there would be pieces of fruit, vegetables or even pork terrine with juniper, as a few examples.

On the other hand, it will not, at the very least, be inexpensive and there's a possibility that the dinners will become boring if they are situated in the same dining-room; furthermore it will be difficult to organise if one arrives home very late. The children are restricted when staying at the table if they feel that they should eat, alone, elsewhere.

In light of these reasons, these dinner nights should be infrequent in order to save money; with this you have more to talk about. Finally, change the venue to a restaurant from time to time.

Bonne Chance, Teran, et merci beaucoup pour ceci.

Also since you said that the English French education system is a little drab, could you teach me how to make my written work more stylistic? Perhaps something skewed towards the creativity of an A level French student's essay?[/COLOR]

 

[Jim Morrison]

Par contre, ce ne sera pas, du moins, bon marché et il y a une possibilité que les dîners deviennent ennuyeux s’ils se trouvent dans la même salle �* manger

This was the only thing I found, I thought it was the subjonctif.
Could be wrong though After skimming over it, I didn't notice any grammar errors :o

 

[Oxymoron Man]

Par contre, ce ne sera pas, du moins, bon marché et il y a une possibilité que les dîners deviennent ennuyeux s’ils se trouvent dans la même salle �* manger

This was the only thing I found, I thought it was the subjonctif.
Could be wrong though After skimming over it, I didn't notice any grammar errors :o

We haven't learned le subjonctif yet and even so, is your correction showing me a subjunctive form of devenir? Just to add, I think I was grammatically correct there, in my defence, because I used a 'Si + future verb' construction in which I'm stating that there is a possibility that the dinners will become boring in the future if they are continually situated in the same dining-room now.

Thanks for the compliment about not noticing any other errors.

 

[Jim Morrison]

"il y a une possibilité que les dîners deviennent ennuyeux"
This is the main part of the sentence. Subjonctif is used when there is a possibility (or many other situations) followed by the verb que. I believe the subjonctif was in place because the "if taking place in the same room" is not a part of the main sentence.

Ah well, Teran could explain better.

 

[Teran]

You'll never learn the subjunctive or need it in GCSE.

It's sad but if you use an indicative conjugation you won't even get marked down.

 

[Teran]

Also since you said that the English French education system is a little drab, could you teach me how to make my written work more stylistic? Perhaps something skewed towards the creativity of an A level French student's essay?[/color]

Read real French, try to watch French news www.tf1.fr

Remember that direct translation is a sure path to failure. You need to stop thinking in English when you're translating, you need to think as much as possible in French.

It's hard but you'll get the hand of it. Anyway I'll try get this done by tomorrow, don't worry it'll be good. :x

 

[Oxymoron Man]

You'll never learn the subjunctive or need it in GCSE.

It's sad but if you use an indicative conjugation you won't even get marked down.

Can we have a few MSN or skype conversations in French once in a while?

And are you really going to take your time with this? Wow, I am so grateful for this! I understand that you must also be busy with university coursework too, right?

 

[Teran]

I guess so.

Do you live in London by any chance?

 

[Oxymoron Man]

I guess so.

Do you live in London by any chance?

Yes, but I'm not willing to meet up with internet strangers >_>.

 

[Teran]

I never said I wanted to meet you lol.

Just wondering because London schools teach a certain way.

 

[Jim Morrison]

._.
I feel so much smarter now.
P.S.

EDIT: nvm P.S. I was going to post something stupid.

 

[Thino]

french is my native language , I'll try to correct what I can :

'Diner ou ne diner pas avec votre famille- c’est telle est la question"

Ce que je trouve être assez passionnant du dîner avec votre famille, c’est que vous pouvez vous parler et vous pouvez vous écouter. N'est-ce pas amusant de discuter de votre jour journée avec votre famille ? En écoutant vos amis de la famille, vous apprendrez une chose ou deux et vous pouvez vous ouvrir et discuter des affaires ou des problèmes, ce qui que tout le monde peut trouver détendant relaxant. Pourquoi ne pas parler contre le du tremblement de terre en Haïti, parler pour de la protection de la nature ou mentionner raconter votre journée scolaire. De plus vous ne pouvez pas regarder la télé si vous dînez dans la salle �* manger donc vous pouvez vous parler sérieusement. Finalement, tout le monde peut aider �* faire la cuisine donc les repas seraient meilleurs, contrôlés et sains (il n’aura pas de plats surgelés) ; il y a aurait des fruits, des légumes ou des terrines de porcelet au genièvre, comme des par exemples.

Par contre, ce ne sera pas, du moins, bon marché et il y a une possibilité que les dîners deviendront deviennent (but you said something about not learning subjonctif yet so..) ennuyeux s’ils se trouvent dans la même salle �* manger ; en plus ce sera difficile �* organiser si on arrive rentre plus tard chez vous. Les enfants sont limités en restant �* la table s’ils sentent qu’ils devraient manger, seulement seuls , ailleurs.

Compte tenu de ces raisons, ces nuits de dîner devraient être rares pour faire des économies ; avec ceci vous avez ce qui permet d'avoir plus �* discuter. Finalement, changez le lieu de dîner (because "lieu" is a much less accurate word than "venue" is in English) �* un restaurant de temps en temps.

also I would replace "vous pouvez vous parler" by "vous pouvez parler" because the reflexive form "se parler" implies more a one-on-one talk , when you're talking about a family here

sorry I dont know what GSCE is so my french may be a little too advanced? especially sicne you say you dont know subjunctive

 

[Teran]

Doesn't matter if it's too advanced, being correct is more important.

It's not like getting extra marks will hurt him.

 

[§witch]

I learned the subjonctif in grade 8 immersion french.

Get at me.

 

[Oxymoron Man]

french is my native language , I'll try to correct what I can :

'Diner ou ne diner pas avec votre famille- c’est telle est la question"

Ce que je trouve être assez passionnant du dîner avec votre famille, c’est que vous pouvez vous parler et vous pouvez vous écouter. N'est-ce pas amusant de discuter de votre jour journée avec votre famille ? En écoutant vos amis de la famille, vous apprendrez une chose ou deux et vous pouvez vous ouvrir et discuter des affaires ou des problèmes, ce qui que tout le monde peut trouver détendant relaxant. Pourquoi ne pas parler contre le du tremblement de terre en Haïti, parler pour de la protection de la nature ou mentionner raconter votre journée scolaire. De plus vous ne pouvez pas regarder la télé si vous dînez dans la salle �* manger donc vous pouvez vous parler sérieusement. Finalement, tout le monde peut aider �* faire la cuisine donc les repas seraient meilleurs, contrôlés et sains (il n’aura pas de plats surgelés) ; il y a aurait des fruits, des légumes ou des terrines de porcelet au genièvre, comme des par exemples.

Par contre, ce ne sera pas, du moins, bon marché et il y a une possibilité que les dîners deviendront deviennent (but you said something about not learning subjonctif yet so..) ennuyeux s’ils se trouvent dans la même salle �* manger ; en plus ce sera difficile �* organiser si on arrive rentre plus tard chez vous. Les enfants sont limités en restant �* la table s’ils sentent qu’ils devraient manger, seulement seuls , ailleurs.

Compte tenu de ces raisons, ces nuits de dîner devraient être rares pour faire des économies ; avec ceci vous avez ce qui permet d'avoir plus �* discuter. Finalement, changez le lieu de dîner (because "lieu" is a much less accurate word than "venue" is in English) �* un restaurant de temps en temps.

also I would replace "vous pouvez vous parler" by "vous pouvez parler" because the reflexive form "se parler" implies more a one-on-one talk , when you're talking about a family here

sorry I dont know what GSCE is so my french may be a little too advanced? especially sicne you say you dont know subjunctive

I was just expecting Teran's one this morning but this is GOLD! I've never been corrected so much! Furthermore I am actually acknowledging these mistakes rather than disputing them or swimming in a pool of shame!

I think I'm quite fortunate to find a French person here willing enough to spend their time correcting me. For this, I am very grateful.

Thank you.

TERAN: We haven't officially learned the subjunctive yet but we have learned one subjunctive phrase which is 'il faut que j'y reflechisse'

 

[kr3wman]

'Diner ou ne diner pas avec votre famille- c’est telle est la question"

Ce que je trouve être assez passionnant du dîner avec votre/la famille, c’est que vous pouvez vous parler et vous pouvez vous écouter. N'est-ce pas amusant de discuter de votre jour journée avec votre famille/vos proches ? En écoutant vos amis de la votre famille, vous apprendrez une chose ou deux et vous pouvez vous ouvrir et discuter d'affaires ou des problèmes, ce qui que tout le monde peut trouver détendant relaxant. Pourquoi ne pas parler contre le du tremblement de terre en Haïti, parler pour de la protection de la nature l'environnement ou mentionner raconter votre journée scolaire à l'école. De plus vous ne pouvez pas regarder la télé si vous dînez dans la salle �* manger donc vous pouvez vous parler sérieusement. Finalement, tout le monde peut aider �* faire la cuisine donc les repas seraient meilleurs, contrôlés et sains (il n'y aurait pas de plats surgelés) ; il y a aurait des fruits, des légumes ou des terrines de porcelet au genièvre, comme des par exemples.

Par contre, ce ne serait pas, du moins, bon marché et il y a une possibilité que les dîners deviendront deviendraient ennuyeux s’ils se trouvaient dans la même salle �* manger ; en plus ce serait difficile �* organiser si on arrive rentre plus tard chez vous. Les enfants sont seraient limités en restant �* la table s’ils sentent qu’ils devraient manger, seulement seuls , ailleurs.

Compte tenu de ces raisons, ces nuits de dîner devraient être rares pour faire des économies ; avec ceci vous avez ce qui permet d'avoir plus �* discuter. Finalement, changezr le lieu de dîner �* pour un restaurant de temps en temps.

further review.

verb tense consistency is important.

 

[Oxymoron Man]

further review.

verb tense consistency is important.

I can continue to agree with Thino in some places in your re-review but thanks for most of the further corrections. It seems I've got a lot to get used to in French .

Hey, if I may add, that was mini language battle between the Canadians and the Ivorians

 

[Thino]

I agree with the whole re-review BUT the "deviendraient" I'm about 100% sure is subjonctif there , Canadian french or not

 

[Broletariat]

Nope, when he says that there is a possibility that something will happen, he isn't saying that "J'ai doute que..." It's more like "C'est probable que..." Therefore it isn't subjonctive because it's not the tell-tale phrase of doubt. On AP exams and such be careful not to fall into the "Holy crap, it's a 'que,' SUBJUNCTIVE.

 

[Oxymoron Man]

Nope, when he says that there is a possibility that something will happen, he isn't saying that "J'ai doute que..." It's more like "C'est probable que..." Therefore it isn't subjonctive because it's not the tell-tale phrase of doubt. On AP exams and such be careful not to fall into the "Holy crap, it's a 'que,' SUBJUNCTIVE.

So what should that sentence say? And can ANYONE agree with him? So far there's been so many disagreements about this and hardly any agreements.

 

[Broletariat]

Par contre, ce ne serait pas, du moins, bon marché et il y a une possibilité que les dîners deviendraient ennuyeux s’ils se trouvaient dans la même salle �* manger ;


Ok, see how you have a "si clause" In which on one side of the word "si" you have a verb conjugated in one tense, and on the other, a different verb conjugated in a different tense? Whoever corrected it was correct in that the conditional deviendraient and not the future deviendront worked there because on the other side of the si clause you have a verb in the imperfect.

EDIT: This is wrong.
The french speaking person who corrected your paper is the best measuring tool for the subjonctif you could possibly have. The reason he didn't put it in subjonctif is because it didn't sound right in the subjonctif.
EDIT: This is wrong.

Edit: Crud, I need to learn to read. Anyway, if the French speaker says it works, then it works. However, that's a native speaker whereas I'm actively preparing for the AP exam in a few months. Saying there is a possibility of something happening can call for the subjonctif, however, it depends on the probability of its happening.

 

[kr3wman]

wtf are you guys talking about.

and wtf is an ivorian. I put verb tense consistency is important because it is. can't have 4-5 tenses where you only need two.

if you have a ''Si'' its verb can't be conditionnel because the tense already refers to a possibility.

edit : oups.

s'ils sentaient

forgot that one.

 

[Oxymoron Man]

wtf are you guys talking about.

and wtf is an ivorian.

edit : oups.



forgot that one.

More like wth is an ivorian. Person from Ivory Coast.

 

[kr3wman]

oh.

Oh. oh okay.

 

[Oxymoron Man]

oh.

Oh. oh okay.

Thanks for your help man. I appreciate it.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Nope, when he says that there is a possibility that something will happen, he isn't saying that "J'ai doute que..." It's more like "C'est probable que..." Therefore it isn't subjonctive because it's not the tell-tale phrase of doubt. On AP exams and such be careful not to fall into the "Holy crap, it's a 'que,' SUBJUNCTIVE.

Untrue.
Je doute que expresses uncertainity. This also makes subjonctif. I am 100% certain on this.

 

[Denzi]

Untrue.
Je doute que expresses uncertainity. This also makes subjonctif. I am 100% certain on this.

Yeah, you're right.

 

[kr3wman]

you need context.

 

[Thino]

even though I'm still 100% sure about the subjunctive , I can understand kr3wman's reasoning behind the use of conditional

"que" is followed by subjunctive for those main reasons :

1) impersonal verbs in the main proposition , ex : " Il faut qu'il vienne"
2) expressing a wish/a possibility , ex : "Il veut que tu croies en lui"
3) verb in the main proposition expressing doubt, probability, or wish ex: " je ne crois pas que tu sois aussi fort que tu le prétends"

"que" is followed by conditional ONLY when theres a condition ( explicit or implicit ) related to the MAIN proposition

ex ( explicit condition ) : "Je parie qu'il gagnerait s'il allait à ce tournoi"
ex ( implicit condition ) : "Je crois qu'il ferait mieux de s'en aller" (implying that IF he doesnt go way , something will happen)

thats why kr3wman is right when saying it depends on the context , but it does ONLY for the conditional.

so according to all those , I would agree with kr3wman if the sentence translated was
"Je crois que les dîners deviendraient s’ils se trouvaient dans la même salle à manger" or
"Je suis sûr que les dîners deviendraient s’ils se trouvaient dans la même salle à manger"
BUT the " il y a une possibilité" forces use of subjunctive over the conditional , so the right sentence is still:
"il y a une possibilité que les dîners deviennent s’ils se trouvent* dans la même salle à manger"

its indeed an ambiguous case , and I'm not sure (or rather cant explain correctly) why the subjunctive overrides conditional but I'm 100% sure it does.

*fixed trouver's tense , it has to be in present because of the subjunctive present

 

[Broletariat]

Hey guys, checked with my french teacher, and let me say; oops.

Il y a une possibilité does indeed denote subjunctive, I was confusing "Il est probable" with the former.

Also @ Gf2tw,

I wasn't saying that "J'ai doute que" is not followed by subjunctive, I was attempting to point out that his statement was closer to "Il est probable" rather than "J'ai doute que." I was wrong, but for different reasons. You most likely got confused by my syntax. Sorry.