Can Lucina be played competitively?

[PMMikey]

I've seen some threads around saying that Lucina is just for casual players while Marth is for competitive. I choose to not believe this. What do you think?

 

[OldmanKarp]

Every character in the game can be played competitively or casually unless they're banned (then they can't play competitively). Just depends on how good you are (obviously higher tiered characters are going to produce better results when used properly)

 

[Gonzaloren]

I think that she can do stronger combos because her sword is more balanced, and if you are going to atack really close to someone you end up doing more damage overall
I still prefer marth though, because of the way I play

 

[OldmanKarp]

Marth is clearly a better character, but Lucina can be used perfectly well (check the video thread for evidence). They have different playstyles, Marth is more focused on KO'ing at low percents while Lucina aims more to rack up damage and KO at higher percents.

 

[Locuan]

I will be watching this thread attentively. Again, I do not want this to devolve into a Marth vs. Lucina debate that leads to flame wars. If you need to know the differences between Marth and Lucina, the first thread pinned to our character board highlights that information. @ OldmanKarp basically answers your question. Every character can be played competitively as long as you are dedicated to the character.

EDIT: I will change the title of the thread to relay your question objectively.

 

[Wintropy]

Of course.

She plays differently from Marth when you get right down to brass tacks. The mindset is distinct between the two and there are certain tricks that are better off with one or the other.

It's also down to subjective taste. I can't play Marth because I can't get into the mentality of playing Marth. I just prefer Lucina. It's the same reason I can play Pit, but not Dark Pit: the two just feel too different to me, I naturally prefer one over the other and get better results when I play with them.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

When it comes to Marth/Lucina, don't listen to anyone who tries to debate which one is better. Just try them both out in training mode and/or friendlies, and continue to use whichever one you like more. If someone tries to tell you that you should just play Marth instead, ignore them and keep getting better with Lucina. You will destroy them and their close-minded spirit through the game when the time comes. That's what I've done for years with Roy in Melee and now Project M, and it's so satisfying to beat them whether it's just on a regular setup or on the big stage in any finals. If Roy's an excellent fighter (even with the bandwagon of him being a bottom character when I feel he's solid mid tier) when proper work and patience is put in, then I have faith in Lucina. Years of experience with people telling me to "just pick Marth" before I three/four stock them down the road, and then seeing the same **** pop up again is in a way refreshing because I already know how to beat that mentality.

 

[PMMikey]

I will be watching this thread attentively. Again, I do not want this to devolve into a Marth vs. Lucina debate that leads to flame wars. If you need to know the differences between Marth and Lucina, the first thread pinned to our character board highlights that information. @ OldmanKarp basically answers your question. Every character can be played competitively as long as you are dedicated to the character.

EDIT: I will change the title of the thread to relay your question objectively.

I'm not trying to start a riot or anything I promise just from looking at threads and a lot of people say you can't play competitively with her is all. I'm just seeing what everyone else thinks.

 

[Kenith]

Honestly, Lucina being an underdog competitively makes me more inclined to use her competitively.
Simply to blow everyone's mind when I conquer your Diddy Kongs and your Sheiks.

 

[Locuan]

I'm not trying to start a riot or anything I promise just from looking at threads and a lot of people say you can't play competitively with her is all. I'm just seeing what everyone else thinks.

I know that's not your intention, don't worry about it However, threads like these have spiraled out of control before which is why I made the above message. Just to make it clear to others as to not have that occur once again.

 

[PMMikey]

I know that's not your intention, don't worry about it However, threads like these have spiraled out of control before which is why I made the above message. Just to make it clear to others as to not have that occur once again.

Oh will do! Just a simple discussion.

 

[Shadow_Whisper]

I think she would be able to. She is a good character but Marth does win over better I think. However, it all depends on how someone plays as Lucina. Which is the same goes to any character someone plays.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

[edited out]

 

[Locuan]

@ dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523 , I will say this one final time, this is not a thread to decide on which character is better than the other. @ PMMikey just asked if Lucina can be played competitively. We have for the most part answered that question already.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

And with the bold text, it's safe to say that I'll just edit that post out.

 

[eshu125]

Yeah she can. Doing pretty well in my region and I intend on continuing to improve with her as my main

 

[CommanderRin]

Go on Youtube and search up Brolylegs Lucina.

Maybe there aren't many Lucina players, but there aren't many Marth players either to be honest.

I'm looking forward to moving to a bigger city and representing best waifu.

 

[Saclam]

She's definitely viable,once people start experimenting and discover her potential,we can see a significant jump of Lucy(and marth)players.

 

[PMMikey]

I definitely think she is, I've won constantly on FG with her. People just don't see her potential because cocky marth player say "No Tippers". Not saying all Marth players are stuck and I'm not trying to start a war just stating that she is very useful.

 

[Gonzaloren]

I don´t care if it´s marth or lucina, I´d just like to see someone get really good and win a big tournament with one of them

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

I don´t care if it´s marth or lucina, I´d just like to see someone get really good and win a big tournament with one of them

We got a guy named Eshura up in CO who's always top 3 or 1st in SM4SH with Lucina-only. He's bound to travel at some point.

 

[C_Mill24]

Lucina is really good at edge guarding and she has a little bit of Diddy in her with Dthrow to Uair. She can pseudo-HOO HAH!

 

[Vincent21]

See, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Anyone who believes Marth is competitive isn't necessarily asserting Lucina is bad, they're just asking why you would play her when you CAN play Marth. And that question doesn't have an obvious answer. I mean, if you're good at these characters, you're hitting primarily only tippers anyway. That is how a Smash swordsman is played; you control space with your sword and keep the opponent at swords length in order to dominate the spacing game. That's your job. If you're not tipping and spacing, you're doing it wrong. With that in mind, Marth toes DRASTICALLY more damage than Lucy and loses... Nothing for it. He's just better. I mean Lucy is one of those characters that was originally going to be a skin, after all. There aren't any big secrets here Marth players don't know about. Just more standard damage at the cost of tippers.

However, returning to your question, yes, she could totally be competitive if some good tech was found for both characters. Its just logically speaking that would mean Marth is slightly more competitive. Anything she can do he can do better. So choosing her would still offer you the basic frame, but it'd be a willing choice to handicap your damage, that's all. Noting wrong with that, but it'll be hard to sell competitive players on that.

 

[eshu125]

A mod is gonna come in and break up this discussion anyways, but I'll bite:

'I mean, if you're good at these characters, you're hitting primarily only tippers anyway'

No, you're not. I have watched a ton of marth footage, from regular videos posted on the boards to Mr E vids on youtube, and tippers aren't all that common. They happen, but not enough to regard marth as 'better at everything'. In a perfect world marth and lucina are hitting people at the tip of their blade, but with the way the current meta works they are simply outgunned in the neutral game, and thus characters like sheik, diddy, sonic etc are gonna be running circles around them that you don't have the time or options to perfectly space away from them. The thing that Marth and Lucina excel at are their grab game and off-stage pressure/gimps. They both basically have the same combo's out of grab, so there's no difference there. Then you have the off-stage game. Marth and Lucina have such a wide range of space that they can cover off-stage that it's absolutely crucial to play frame perfect off-stage in your edgeguards. A lot of times you're going to end up hitting people with non-tippers in order to hit them as soon as possible before recovering, and with that in mind you want the hitbox to have as much base knockback as possible so that they are forced into a much worse recovery position.

There can be arguments made left and right for who is actually better in the end, but enough of this 'marth is better in every way, so why play lucina' crap. Maybe in a perfect world, but this isn't one.

 

[ZomBiehn]

Any character can be played casual or competitive, every character has the potential to be better then the next, character advantages help but a better player will always triumph

 

[Funkermonster]

For my little speech: I'm just gonna ignore Marth and temporarily pretend that he doesn't exist to stay out of any flame wars involving him vs Lucina, and just treat her like her own character for once

Now to be honest, I have been loud and clear in saying that I think she has plenty of severe weaknesses that make her a tough character to play and that I think she is Low Tier. I do however, think she is pretty high in that low tier, considering how balanced Smash 4 is turning out to be fairly balanced and a lot of characters seem viable atm. And while she's got a glaring amount of weaknesses, she's still got her own set of strengths that render her not to be trifled with if you can use her in the right hands:

• Impressive range and Disjoints on the Falchion
• An amazing aerial and offstage game, can gimp some characters fairly well
• Scary Mixups with her Shield Breaker. While most of her other moves are not safe on shield at all, not everyone has a move that can instantly break shields like her, and this move can be great for pecking at people who like to abuse their shield too much
• Respectable punish game
• Ridiculously good tilts, especially her Dtilt.
• Decent approaches and spacing potential... as long as the opponent has no projectiles
• Best Walk Speed in the Game, can walk faster than some characters can run!
• Good custom moves, particularly Dashing Assault, Iai Counter, and Dolphin Jump

Of course though, she sure as hell has flaws. And I hate to be a downer, but I can't but help but think they slightly outweigh her strengths

• Her recovery is terrible, in a game where lots of characters have good recoveries
• Nearly every move she has is punishable against a shield besides Dtilt, Shield Breaker, and her Aerials
• No projectile or any great defense against them
• Mediocre set of throws
• Does not have many combos.
• Has a lot of trouble killing

I don't think she is horrible, nor do I even think she's really bad, I just think a lot of other characters are better. And while there are ways to work around her weaknesses maybe, I can't help but feel she has more weaknesses than many, and some of them are very hard to work around. I think she can do well in certain matchups, but if you wanna main her, you might wanna consider having a secondary.

I definitely think she is, I've won constantly on FG with her. People just don't see her potential because cocky marth player say "No Tippers". Not saying all Marth players are stuck and I'm not trying to start a war just stating that she is very useful.

Lol FG is garbage. 65% of people online suck, you will rarely ever come across anyone even close to tournament viable there, the only stage used is FD and Omegas, and there can be occasional lag. Not trying to disregard your point, but if you're trying to make a point that she's good, For Glory mode is a terrible reference and you're gonna need to find a better piece of evidence to. Try using her in a tournament scene or on SmashLadder.com, then we'll talk

 

[Shaya]

I'll say a few things.

1. The playstyle differences are truly meager and rarely have alternative results in most scenarios between the two except for killing, which Marth can come out better by a lot. That doesn't mean you have to play Marth though. It never has. Roy was extremely distinctive to Marth in Melee. Sourspots btw are good things, they push combos further, are safer on shield, etc etc; tippers aren't everything, you say it yourself.

2. Every character can be played competitively.
Who you play is up to you. "Low/Mid Tier Warrior" is a thing, and those players garner a lot of respect by many, and they aren't worse than other players around them.
As a newer player, you'll make the biggest splash early on with 'better characters'. But player skill is independent of character choice. But when it comes to tournaments, if you're struggling every round you will be knocked out early, being knocked out early means less tournament sets which are the perfect context for learning (by playing better opponents, especially those who are playing to win). Getting deep into bracket is a kind of high and focus that can generally only be honed within tournament. Getting there 'easier' also means 'faster'.

 

[Locuan]

@ Funkermonster shows us exactly what we should be talking about here on the Lucina Boards regarding competitive development. As Lucina mains, we should be looking for ways on how to utilize her strengths in matches to extend our advantages. As Lucina mains, we should be looking for ways to work around her weaknesses so they can be used as baits to getting opponents into situations we can capitalize on. Things of that nature. If we want to develop her gameplay, that is the way we will be able to achieve it.

 

[PMMikey]

A mod is gonna come in and break up this discussion anyways, but I'll bite:

'I mean, if you're good at these characters, you're hitting primarily only tippers anyway'

No, you're not. I have watched a ton of marth footage, from regular videos posted on the boards to Mr E vids on youtube, and tippers aren't all that common. They happen, but not enough to regard marth as 'better at everything'. In a perfect world marth and lucina are hitting people at the tip of their blade, but with the way the current meta works they are simply outgunned in the neutral game, and thus characters like sheik, diddy, sonic etc are gonna be running circles around them that you don't have the time or options to perfectly space away from them. The thing that Marth and Lucina excel at are their grab game and off-stage pressure/gimps. They both basically have the same combo's out of grab, so there's no difference there. Then you have the off-stage game. Marth and Lucina have such a wide range of space that they can cover off-stage that it's absolutely crucial to play frame perfect off-stage in your edgeguards. A lot of times you're going to end up hitting people with non-tippers in order to hit them as soon as possible before recovering, and with that in mind you want the hitbox to have as much base knockback as possible so that they are forced into a much worse recovery position.

There can be arguments made left and right for who is actually better in the end, but enough of this 'marth is better in every way, so why play lucina' crap. Maybe in a perfect world, but this isn't one.

I actually really like your answer. It makes sense and as long as no one starts a flame war between the two we're fine.

 

[Vincent21]

A mod is gonna come in and break up this discussion anyways, but I'll bite:

'I mean, if you're good at these characters, you're hitting primarily only tippers anyway'

No, you're not. I have watched a ton of marth footage, from regular videos posted on the boards to Mr E vids on youtube, and tippers aren't all that common. They happen, but not enough to regard marth as 'better at everything'. In a perfect world marth and lucina are hitting people at the tip of their blade, but with the way the current meta works they are simply outgunned in the neutral game, and thus characters like sheik, diddy, sonic etc are gonna be running circles around them that you don't have the time or options to perfectly space away from them. The thing that Marth and Lucina excel at are their grab game and off-stage pressure/gimps. They both basically have the same combo's out of grab, so there's no difference there. Then you have the off-stage game. Marth and Lucina have such a wide range of space that they can cover off-stage that it's absolutely crucial to play frame perfect off-stage in your edgeguards. A lot of times you're going to end up hitting people with non-tippers in order to hit them as soon as possible before recovering, and with that in mind you want the hitbox to have as much base knockback as possible so that they are forced into a much worse recovery position.

There can be arguments made left and right for who is actually better in the end, but enough of this 'marth is better in every way, so why play lucina' crap. Maybe in a perfect world, but this isn't one.

I said that'd apply if we were to say they were competitive. Unfortunately, you just clearly outlined why they are not, as far as our current knowledge is concerned. Sheik, Diddy, and Sonic, as well as various other high tier characters with infinitely better mobility outpace them so bad that they can't do their job as spacers. So currently, neither Marth or Lucina are competitive. The advantage of Marth still exists, but since both characters are currently limited in competitive strength, it does not shine through. That's not even a swipe at the players or a backhanded, smarmy remark. Its just the truth. I recently watched Zero clear through nearly a dozen solid Marth/Lucy players on stream challenging him and could see visibly as both characters struggled to even hope to keep characters like Falcon, Diddy, or Sheik spaced. You're right; not a perfect world at all. An argument can be made for neither character.

What Lucy/Marth players truly need is their own aMSa to show them the ropes and discover a new way to play this character. In Brawl/Melee your spacing was so strong your opponent might as well be superglued to your tipper. Now with landing lag on aerials and some extra frames in general, oh how the mighty have fallen.

 

[Wintropy]

I think it's a bit unfair to say they can't be competitive because they don't have the right tools for the job. By its very definition, anybody can be competitive. If somebody were to hack Sandbag, an immobile entity, into the game and play in a competitive scenario with him, he'd still be competitive. That's the definition of competition. Sit down, pick character, hit buttons, shake hands. Job done. That's competitive.

Competitively viable, on the other hand, is another matter entirely. Thus far, I haven't seen any major tournament-level Marth or Lucina gameplay that suggests that are popular in high-level play or can hold their own against high-level top-tiers, but that doesn't mean they can't. @ Locuan hit the nail on the head: it should be the job of we Lucina players to make her competitively viable. I don't doubt she has potential, it's just a matter of finding it and doing the best with what we've got.

 

[Vincent21]

Well, okay, I concede that point because it wasn't my attention to overlook that distinction. Competitive is merely engaging in the act itself, and separate from competitive viability. True. What I mean to say is, that at the current collective knowledge level the Smash 4 community is at, Lucy/Marth are currently unviable competitively. This could easily change if the right discoveries are made, but right now that just isn't the case. However I feel if the characters make progress, it'll be by finding either a way to use their ground game to more effective reset the game to neutral, or learning something about Smash 4 spacing no one else does yet. While these characters aren't as strong as iterations of the Marth swordsman moveset frame from previous Smash games, their primary STRENGTH has not changed. They have a sword, and that sword is going to be in between you and them, making it difficult to approach them without taking damage. With grab combos to punish bad approaches, and spacing to keep people frustrating trapped in the neutral game until you say otherwise (which is the point where you employ a strong ledge-gimp game), your favorite place for your opponent to be is at the tip of your sword.

If someone can make that happen, or literally reinvent the character beyond that, competitively viability can be achieved. However, if the former happens as opposed to the latter, Marth will simply be the "better" version. And my current expectation, and the acting expectation of players espousing this Marth4lyfe rhetoric is that the former is the more likely occurrence. Honestly I'm just interested in both of these characters (as viewed as one frame) and can't really find a way to overcome their flaws, so I'd love to see a discovery with either! Until then, it's back to the lab, I guess.

 

[ZFallen]

Hey there, longtime lurker...recent poster. So take my thoughts however you like. I just thought I'd throw in my observations. Please don't kill me!

It seems that we're all standing around waiting for someone to make this discovery for Marth/Lucina. I've taken a look around a few character boards and Lucina seems to have near nothing going on in terms of researching a decent method of playing her. Perhaps there's alot I'm missing, but it just seems like while other characters are progressing the metagame, Lucina is being left behind. While this probably would be expected if she were an outright bad character, it strikes me as odd as she appears to have potential and it just seems that her and Marth are falling behind more due to them not being used/researched instead of her actually being a poor character.

In the end they could both be low tier, but for now perhaps we should all just keep plugging away with her/pooling together our knowledge and hope we find something of use! Hell, who knows that customs might bring?

 

[DrCactus]

As long as you're willing to put in the work, you can make any character work in competitive.

 

[Gawain]

As has been said, anyone can be competitive. Isai has won nationals in 64 with pretty much every character in the game, even some of the worst ones. Specifically in regards to Lucina, the real issue is that there is very little reason to choose her over Marth, competitively speaking. Marth has access to more followup possibilities that Lucina just doesn't have, and can kill much earlier. Marth also technically has a greater amount of potential with regards to various techs, like frame cancelling, because of the higher amount of hitlag on tippered aerials. I think she's got a slightly smaller hurtbox than Marth does though (although this means her reach isn't quite as good either).

I would say just to pick Marth if you want to be as competitive as absolutely possible and still use this moveset, but if you just want to play the character, just do it. Low-tier heroes are cool too.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marcina have shackles placed on them by Nintendo. That's what their problem is. They were made to have certain limitations.

Anyone can be competitive. Competitively viable is something else entirely.

 

[CommanderRin]

Marcina isn't viable because we aren't working hard enough for the two.

Stop whining, start playing
More play, more wins

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is gonna be shots fired but...Marth boards has been trying since day one.

Lucina forums seem too concerned with fanfics and FE role-playing.

I would bet anything that I have more passion and drive for developing Marth competitively then the entire Lucina forums has for her with all it's posters combined.

The Lucina forums themselves imo is the crux of the issue.

 

[CommanderRin]

This is gonna be shots fired but...Marth boards has been trying since day one.

Lucina forums seem too concerned with fanfics and FE role-playing.

I would bet anything that I have more passion and drive for developing Marth competitively then the entire Lucina forums has for her with all it's posters combined.

The Lucina forums themselves imo is the crux of the issue.

I wouldn't know entirely because I'm seldom on the forums. Though honestly, it's still the same issue, we aren't working hard enough. And when I say this, I'm not excluding myself.

If you've been working hard since day 1, then keep at it.

 

[eshu125]

'I would bet anything that I have more passion and drive for developing Marth competitively then the entire Lucina forums has for her with all it's posters combined.'

Considering the last tournament I saw you in you were using sheik, I obviously don't blame you for desiring a more effective character, but it gives your claim less credibility. Regardless I'd have to disagree with you though. I've been putting a ton of work into this character and I compete at a top level in my state with her. I don't spend a lot of time on here talking about her because that free time is better well spent practicing her in the lab.

With that said, I agree with you (in regards to the general forum activity here). Even in the lucina skype group there isn't a whole lot of competitive discussion about her. At the same time moral here is kind of low since every time those kind of discussions come up the marth boards feels the need to come here and tell us why their **** character is slightly less **** than ours