Social C. Falcon Social

[ShrieK1295]

someone tell me how to edgeguard falcon

i don't mean give me tips about what moves are good or nonsense like that

i want your whole god damn flow chart of how you edgeguard falcon, the more detailed the better

for instance, falcon is below the ledge trying to up-b, waveland to ledge and hog until he either dies or lands on stage, in which case stomp or knee to punish landing lag.

BUT if i was busy covering another option and he fakes me out and goes low and starts an up-b so that i probably won't reach the ledge quick enough, stay on stage and snipe him with utilt, short-hop fast-fall knee/bair offstage (possibly the option i have the worst time with, as i always **** up the timing somehow)

how to cover falcon's recovery options if they recover from the middle, or from up high, whether they falcon kick or not, etc.

Knee them. Occasionally utilt. I think the fast fall back air the guy abov me posted is good as well--dropping off the stage with a back air or weak knee when they are coming from below are both amazing. But seriously though, knee them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS0rdV1lmek Watch the whole set if you need more convincing. You can bair someone 6 times and let them get more chances to recover from a high angle or knee them 1-2 times and watch them die.

 

[Zhea]

You grab the edge and don't let go until they land. Seriously, every falcon wants the edge. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. Falcon's landing lag is incredibly long, so you knee/stomp+knee on reaction after they land. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. If they recovered high, bair or knee works fine. Just wait until Falcon is over the apex of his up-B and then he's dead.

 

[Equal]

So I never ran into the Peach in bracket. But both losses were to Sheik, another MU I don't have experience on -_-. I know that it's a horrible matchup, I kind of want to pick up a secondary but idk. Maybe I should just tough it out and get better at it.

 

[DuckPimp]

tough it out.
playing against sheik forces you to get better (quickly) at spacing and punishes and general tech which translates to all MU's

 

[Aggromidget]

You grab the edge and don't let go until they land. Seriously, every falcon wants the edge. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. Falcon's landing lag is incredibly long, so you knee/stomp+knee on reaction after they land. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. If they recovered high, bair or knee works fine. Just wait until Falcon is over the apex of his up-B and then he's dead.

I guess I'm an outlier. I would rather recover center stage and be punished than be near the ledge. His recovery is just so baad. I'd rather die off the top than off the side.

 

[dRevan64]

I guess I'm an outlier. I would rather recover center stage and be punished than be near the ledge. His recovery is just so baad. I'd rather die off the top than off the side.

Because it's a terrible idea. Center stage is fine, sure, but if you're anywhere NEAR the ledge is, it's better to grab it than be next to it since you have a good ledgedash or even reverse waveland stall to fall back on if nothing else.
Land on the stage and you get kicked in the face. Especially another falcon will basically end you at that point.

 

[Zhea]

Explain how you are getting back to center stage wizard!

 

[Aggromidget]

Because it's a terrible idea. Center stage is fine, sure, but if you're anywhere NEAR the ledge is, it's better to grab it than be next to it since you have a good ledgedash or even reverse waveland stall to fall back on if nothing else.
Land on the stage and you get kicked in the face. Especially another falcon will basically end you at that point.

Explain how you are getting back to center stage wizard!

If I have to Up-B to recover (not uncommon), then if the ledge is free AND unguarded, then I'd definitely grab it for sure.
However, the ledge is usually guarded, so I'd prefer to land on stage as close to center stage as possible. Yes, I'll take a punishment, but I'd rather not be gimped (unless I'm at >130%). Doing this, I can also condition them to expect this, and occasionally go for ledge safely.
Basically my philosophy is don't get gimped. I can understand if you guys disagree - that's just a different playstyle.

 

[Zhea]

Okay So yes, you can land toward the center, in all likely hood, Falcon being a tank, you will live. However landing anywhere near the ledge is a death sentence. Your opponents have 30 frames to jump up and do as they please with you. If they are smart you will have a hell of a time getting back. If you can land towards the middle, chances are you were never really in danger, but chances are also high that you are still going to eat a fat punish.

 

[Cowsaymeow]

Alright guys after like a week of playing I've at least learned some parts of simple tech for Melee.

As of now I can Short hop decently, sometimes I screw up but I'm doing alright overall. L-Cancel seems super easy, not having much of an issue with it. Only main part that I have a problem with is Fast falling, not sure why I cant get CF to go down faster

Also, since I cant play with anyone right now I've been playing Lvl 9 Marth mainly. I know this is scrubby to say, but as of now I can generally beat him with 2 stocks left over. My main punish game as of now is something I do in Street Fighter 4 and other FGs I play, where I would approach the enemy and quickly back off and generally the enemy does a move and sometimes they do one that is punishable.

So what I did against Marth lvl9 was that if he did a F smash while I was DD I would quickly (after I know he whiffed [sorry if Smash players use a different terminology on this] his F-smash or a move that has long recovery frames) do either Side B, Nair, Dair or Fair. Sometimes I'll grab but my execution on Marth with grab combos is pretty weak right now so I don't go for it a lot of the time.

If marth is in the air and I have time to do so, I also generally do a U-air and attempt extending with a Nair or a knee. My main issue is I cant get instant U-airs for this. Is there good tips on how to do this?

Besides that I don't have much of a punish game and from what I know CF is apparently a character that excels on punishing chars for mistakes. So what other options is there for CF to punish? Or is that too broad of a question to ask?

Thanks for the help you guys have done for me!

 

[Ziodyne]

I'm sorry to say, but don't practice with level 9 CPU's. They're more of an exercise in frustration than actual practice. They make decisions no rational human would ever do, but they also manage to get away with some of it because the inputs they do are inhuman. Good example is their SDI, which is god like.

Their DI is also always set to hard-survival DI unless against a move that is an obvious launcher (raptor boost, for example). This means combos that generally would not work against a human in the slightest.

If you want to practice combos, do it on lower level CPU's. Level 3-4 actually mixup DI (so "most human-like"), I think level 1's are okay to practice against anti-combo DI too though.

Your main goal atm is just tech skill though. It's great you're thinking ahead about using your newfound tech skill as actual options against future opponents, but really try waiting until after you play against someone (or super hard-core analyze a pro falcon match and theory craft from it lol) so that you have a better idea about how falcon interacts with other characters.

So yeah, practice lots of tech skill. For fast-falling, remember you need to press down while Falcon is falling, so you can't fast-fall until falcon reaches the apex of his jump. Learn wavedashing, which is less important but is still super important because of its use as a spacing tool.

After you're comfortable with both SHFFLing and wavedashing (which could take a long time or no time at all, depending), work on out-of-shield options. Basically, you probably know that you can shield grab, roll, and spot dodge, but remember that you can jump out of shield. (Hold shield, press jump, and you jump out of shield).

This is crucial because it gives access to both short-hop aerials out of shield and wavedash out of shield, both of which are great tools you should be comfortable with (think when you get fsmashed, if it's not a tipper you're in range to punish with a knee out of shield).

Then after that is a good amount of more esoteric stuff that can boost your performance, but the stuff right here is fundamentals you should be drilling to perfection.

 

[ELStalky]

Learn wavedashing, which is less important but is still super important because of its use as a spacing tool.

I for one do not really use wave-dashing at all, given how sub-par CF's ground game is i do not deem it very necessary. Out of shield and when adjusting the distance to the ledge it can be helpful though.

 

[dRevan64]

learn to moonwalk then you'll be really good

 

[Cowsaymeow]

I'm sorry to say, but don't practice with level 9 CPU's. They're more of an exercise in frustration than actual practice. They make decisions no rational human would ever do, but they also manage to get away with some of it because the inputs they do are inhuman. Good example is their SDI, which is god like.

Their DI is also always set to hard-survival DI unless against a move that is an obvious launcher (raptor boost, for example). This means combos that generally would not work against a human in the slightest.

If you want to practice combos, do it on lower level CPU's. Level 3-4 actually mixup DI (so "most human-like"), I think level 1's are okay to practice against anti-combo DI too though.

Your main goal atm is just tech skill though. It's great you're thinking ahead about using your newfound tech skill as actual options against future opponents, but really try waiting until after you play against someone (or super hard-core analyze a pro falcon match and theory craft from it lol) so that you have a better idea about how falcon interacts with other characters.

So yeah, practice lots of tech skill. For fast-falling, remember you need to press down while Falcon is falling, so you can't fast-fall until falcon reaches the apex of his jump. Learn wavedashing, which is less important but is still super important because of its use as a spacing tool.

After you're comfortable with both SHFFLing and wavedashing (which could take a long time or no time at all, depending), work on out-of-shield options. Basically, you probably know that you can shield grab, roll, and spot dodge, but remember that you can jump out of shield. (Hold shield, press jump, and you jump out of shield).

This is crucial because it gives access to both short-hop aerials out of shield and wavedash out of shield, both of which are great tools you should be comfortable with (think when you get fsmashed, if it's not a tipper you're in range to punish with a knee out of shield).

Then after that is a good amount of more esoteric stuff that can boost your performance, but the stuff right here is fundamentals you should be drilling to perfection.

Gotcha. I'll try learning all those this week then. I still have 10 days until the tournament so I have time to learn those techs now then. I'm not seeing too much difficulty with WD as I can get it out a decent amount if times. I think I'll also start watching some pro matches to analyze then.

Thanks man, appreciate the help.

Also, for anyone that knows this; what VoD of any Cap falcon match shows really well on what to do in MUs? Ditties with CF, fox, IC, falco and Marth preferably since I think those are the more popular characters that people use

 

[Cowsaymeow]

learn to moonwalk then you'll be really good

Is moonwalking actually something to learn as a CF player or is it something nice to have? I hear differing opinions on this

 

[dRevan64]

Is moonwalking actually something to learn as a CF player or is it something nice to have? I hear differing opinions on this

It's actually not really important but if you're playing captain falcon and your objective isn't to look really cool you should not play this character.

 

[ELStalky]

It's actually not really important but if you're playing captain falcon and your objective isn't to look really cool you should not play this character.

Objection!

Is moonwalking actually something to learn as a CF player or is it something nice to have? I hear differing opinions on this

CF is about the only character where moonwalk is actually useful, however it is very situational, in most cases a normal dash jump will do as well.

 

[Cowsaymeow]

It's actually not really important but if you're playing captain falcon and your objective isn't to look really cool you should not play this character.

Lol this is true haha. I'll learn it eventually

 

[ELStalky]

Also regarding:

L-Cancel seems super easy, not having much of an issue with it.

Try doing it consistently on nothing, an enemy, a shielding enemy and a bunch of Ice Climbers.

 

[dRevan64]

Objection!

Six of one, half a dozen of another

 

[Cowsaymeow]

Also regarding:

Try doing it consistently on nothing, an enemy, a shielding enemy and a bunch of Ice Climbers.

Ah yeah I forgot it's different on those things. I'll do that as well then

 

[TerryJ]

Is moonwalking actually something to learn as a CF player or is it something nice to have? I hear differing opinions on this

It's not suuuper important but it's a lot of fun to do. Moonwalk to Dash-grab behind or Moonwalk away then reverse it to moonwalk towards them to mixup your approaches, or moonwalk to waveland. There's so many fun ways to use moonwalking, I really suggest you learn it. :D

 

[ELStalky]

It's not suuuper important but it's a lot of fun to do. Moonwalk to Dash-grab behind or Moonwalk away then reverse it to moonwalk towards them to mixup your approaches, or moonwalk to waveland. There's so many fun ways to use moonwalking, I really suggest you learn it. :D

If you compare that to his regular movement it is incredibly slow and even though it looks funny you probably will not surprise seasoned players with it. So if you get something off it on the ground you should have gotten that anyway.

 

[.K1]

Im just curious what the frame advantage / disadvantage falcon is at after a shffled nair?

Basically, if falcon does shffld nair > jab, will that always beat my shield grab?

 

[Cowsaymeow]

Gasp I can WD decently and Wave land somewhat consistently

 

[Vanitas]

With the exception of shiek, fox, falco, and puff, which characters are one of falcon's hardest match ups?

 

[ELStalky]

Im just curious what the frame advantage / disadvantage falcon is at after a shffled nair?
Basically, if falcon does shffld nair > jab, will that always beat my shield grab?

Based on this data it should be on -2, so as jab hits on frame 3 that should beat shield grab (7) when done correctly.

With the exception of shiek, fox, falco, and puff, which characters are one of falcon's hardest match ups?

Randall & Stage.

 

[.K1]

^^ thank you sir

 

[NightShadow6]

So whats the answer too the age old question of shiek?

I have tried baiting out actions to punish and have been successful sometimes. Its just that she can get that grab on me a lot more often than I can get openings.

Everyone grab as led to a stock pretty much. Would I need to focus on better spacing or something? Need some help with this one.

 

[SFS_Nipz]

All falcons mu's are 50/50.

 

[ShrieK1295]

So whats the answer too the age old question of shiek?

I have tried baiting out actions to punish and have been successful sometimes. Its just that she can get that grab on me a lot more often than I can get openings.

Everyone grab as led to a stock pretty much. Would I need to focus on better spacing or something? Need some help with this one.

I could also use some advice for this matchup. For me it has to do with Sheik camping the ledge. I've seen Hax steal the ledge from M2K with a WD FF to the ledge. Are there any other good tricks to learn? Most of the time I'm even near that area, I end up coming out on the losing end of whatever exchanges happen, regardless of how I try to position myself.

 

[Zhea]

Alright some Sheik advice.
1. Never fight Sheik on/near the ledge if you don't have to. Falcon's recovery sucks, and while it won't kill you at low percents, Sheik will rack up a ton of damage on you.
2. If Sheik is ledge stalling don't try and take it from her unless she is just double jump re-grabbing it. Stay at a safe, but threatening distance and Dash Dance (if you are on BF, be near the side of the side platform closest to the center). If you want to feel a bit more threatening, turn your back to the ledge and start Wave dashing/Wave landing toward it like you are going to take it. Remember you have 8 minutes on that clock. That's a long time to up-b stall without messing up, especially under pressure.
3. Never let Sheik camp you if you have the lead. Backoff, force her to fight you mid stage. If she is needle camping just move out of her range.
4. When you grab her at 30%, you can start up-throw up-airing. At 60% even the best DI will lead to at least a double up-air, and possibly a knee. 70-90% is your golden opportunity. All DIs from up-throw lead to knee. After that up-throw up-air.
5. Always hold ledge when edge guarding her, unless you mess up your invincibility and her fire is going to hit you. Then either do standard get up or ledge attack. If she lands on stage, stomp at low to mid percents, knee at higher percents. Try to get a reverse knee.
6. Sheik loses to Falcon in the air. Don't let her bully you with her crappy back-air and forward-air. Challenge her jumps with up-air. If she starts doing full hop needles, use Falcon's amazing air mobility and full hop knee her.
7. The only thing Shiek has on you at lower percents is grab. It's all she wants. You can cc Dash attack until 72% when it's fresh and cc f tilt until 93%. Punish those with grabs.
8. Shiek, compared to Falcon, is slow. If you have ever played the match up from the other side, you realize how hard it is to actually catch Falcon. Shiek relies a lot on Falcon giving her all the rope she needs to hang him with when he approaches. Abuse your movement. Shiek does not camp Falcon because it is easy, she does it because she can't fight him aggressively and win.
9. Get fast out of shield. A lot of what Shiek hits your shield with is not safe, and getting fast at stomping down-smashes on shield and neutral/up-airing badly spaced tilts.
10. Your counterpick of choice is FD. Her's is Yoshi Story. Yoshis ****s your grab combos on her up super bad. They are the perfect height to make guaranteed death into a 50/50.
11. Your neutral will either be Dreamland and, if Shiek is smart, FoD. If she gives you Battle Field, go Battle Field. However you should really learn how you can abuse FoD, and how safe it makes stomps.
12. Once Shiek is mid stage you have several options for approach. DD Grab, well spaced(read tippy toe) neutral-airs, and empty hop short hop aerials to bait shield grabs. There are others, but keep keep to the golden rule:
13. Don't get grabbed. Seriously, make this a focus. So much of Shiek's offense shuts down when she can't grab you. Again you are waaaaaaay faster than Shiek. She has a real hard time grabbing you unless you go in. Build your offensive options around that.

 

[NightShadow6]

Thanks for the advice my friend.

 

[SFS_Nipz]

1)You can ramen noodle a side platform to steal the ledge and make them scared to stall.... like on dream land / battlefield/ Fod. most levels you end up playing against her. 2) there are certain ways to pivot / moonwalk to turn around to set up stealing the ledge during their shino stall. I personally like stealing her ledge and its not rocket science. I did it 4 times last set against Okami (resulting in his death all four times). and x2 against Tafokints.


EDIT: I also think learning moonwalks are super important because it teaches you optimal points to pivot. Theres still a lot of movement tricks Im trying to get down but theres more to falcon then people think. Many many different mix up options. Ill post a video within the next few months.

 

[Chaos1sHere]

Newer falcon player here. Regarding practice, I found Scar's Trial list ( http://meleeiton.me/2013/08/29/trials-draft-1-captain-falcon/ ) and am having a hard time completing them. I can't seem to find the video that goes along with it (but I heard it's in one of the MIOM episodes). I really like the way the trials are set up, as I feel like I am accomplishing something when I complete one. Has anyone else used a system like this to practice? If so, what did you do?

 

[Wizzrobe]

With the exception of shiek, fox, falco, and puff, which characters are one of falcon's hardest match ups?

Falcon beats everyone else.

 

[.K1]

So....what exactly is the general consensus on Falcon vs Fox and Falcon vs Falco?

im assuming something like 60/40 spacies favor?

Sorry. Im sure this has been discussed a million times. Im planning on learning Falcon after the Arcadian, so im trying to build my knowledge with him.

Edit:

When I Moonwalk, I noticed that my Falcon doesnt glide as much as when I see other people doing it. Is there any particular reason for this? My inputs are as follows:

(facing right)
forward > backward > downback > down > down forward > forward (hold)

its basically one direction, then a half circle towards the direction of my first input.

 

[gravy]

If you want a perfect moonwalk you can just dash and then get to the other direction in one frame, if you do it fast enough you can go straight through the middle.

 

[Zhea]

60/40 for Falco, and while I hate using this, 65/35 for Fox.

 

[.K1]

Wow, I didn't realize the fox matchup was so bad for falcon. Interesting. Thanks for the responses.