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Really?
Also, I could use tips for the mario mu. mario utilt does a good job of stuffing aerials and I dont really covert well off clean hits. Also had trouble uairing Mario's dair, though it could easily just be me not being fast enough. The guy I played usually covered dairs with uairs. Also, dunno much what to do off grabs, I did dthrow regrabs at low percent to throw and uairs, but they weren't really killer combos
EDIT: Meant dair, not fair. Fair isn't hard to avoid, but anyone got any ideas how to punish it if he SHFFL's it? Seems like he can cover the landing really well with dsmash or jabs. Shielding doesn't really seem to work if he fairs low enough.
Also, I could use tips for the mario mu. mario utilt does a good job of stuffing aerials and I dont really covert well off clean hits. Also had trouble uairing Mario's dair, though it could easily just be me not being fast enough. The guy I played usually covered dairs with uairs. Also, dunno much what to do off grabs, I did dthrow regrabs at low percent to throw and uairs, but they weren't really killer combos
EDIT: Meant dair, not fair. Fair isn't hard to avoid, but anyone got any ideas how to punish it if he SHFFL's it? Seems like he can cover the landing really well with dsmash or jabs. Shielding doesn't really seem to work if he fairs low enough.
Captain Smuckers
Smash Journeyman
The important thing to remember when playing mario is that you have much more range and are a lot faster than him. Once you get him above you, he should be very easy to upair forever until he dies a miserable death. So just keep workin on that, I guess. The two things that you need to be wary of are just that he is good at edgeguarding falcon and that (like for everyone else) falcon is combo food for him.
Mario's kinda heavy, use upthrow instead. Uairs are great of course, as they are with most floaty characters.
I don't have too much experience again Mario but I guess wait out the fair instead of trying to uair it? I'm sure that's a great combo starter for Mario so just don't touch it. Maybe CC to gentleman/grab, I know Mario doesn't have too much range with fair so he'll have to get in close.
And Mario's uair is pretty godlike haha.
edit: ^Yeah that stuff too.
And I'll add that it might be good to restrain yourself from dairing randomly, I'm guessing that's uptilt bait as well.
I don't have too much experience again Mario but I guess wait out the fair instead of trying to uair it? I'm sure that's a great combo starter for Mario so just don't touch it. Maybe CC to gentleman/grab, I know Mario doesn't have too much range with fair so he'll have to get in close.
And Mario's uair is pretty godlike haha.
edit: ^Yeah that stuff too.
And I'll add that it might be good to restrain yourself from dairing randomly, I'm guessing that's uptilt bait as well.
Woops, meant dair and not fair when I said I had trouble hitting it with uairs. Maybe I'm not quick enough/not timing it well, I either lose the trade or get hit with a falling uair. And yeah, falcon's faster and does have more range, but I'm at a loss with what to do with it, cuz when I hit him, I don't get very many clean hits that lead to stocks. At the current moment, I'd probably just try to think of how to space nair so that I can not get punished but still get a solid followup afterwards.
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
edgeguarding spacies pls
reliable things
reliable things
Windrose
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
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- 1,470
do the hax soft knee to upair to cover a lot of options. Space animals have to do something very specific to not get edge guarded by that. See his videos and you'll know what i mean. Search any recent hax vs space animal video (ie. vs dj nintendo @ no johns)
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Don't come in from below to get his Dair because the hitbox is really good ... come from the side if you can, or just wait until it's done and hit him when it's retracting
Not getting hit by Utilt is just a matter of dashdancing to bait it or doing a fade-in stomp / Bair
Not getting hit by Utilt is just a matter of dashdancing to bait it or doing a fade-in stomp / Bair
thanks a lot dude
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
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- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Just some food for thought
Melee ain't easy and your tools are very versatile ... just be creative and have fun
Melee ain't easy and your tools are very versatile ... just be creative and have fun
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
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- May 26, 2006
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- 5,744
Haha ... maybe ....
Windrose
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
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- 1,470
If you come, we can all go to the Ontario science centre Game On exhibition and beat up little kids in melee!
https://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/GameOn/
https://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/GameOn/
Windrose for bully of the year.
So, out of curiosity, what do y'all Falcon mains do when playing against a spacies player you've never played before? As you know, most of the really hard-hitting combos on them come out of conditioning/reading, so I'm wondering what kind of general things you guys would do to space safely and get comfortable before fulling adjusting to their play style.
ShrieK1295
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2009
- Messages
- 371
Space nairs and try to dash dance grab. If I notice I'm getting pwnt, then I usually try to mix in more bair or pivot nairs to make it harder for them to space/bait me.
vs spacies, Fox especially, you have to let them set the pace of the match. if Fox wants to be insanely aggressive with nairshine, you can't respond with aggression because you don't have anything that beats it. an example of me failing to do this is me vs Javi at Apex 2012; i challenge pretty much everything and lose. retreating aerials and dd grabs are the way to take on aggressive spacies
vs more defensive spacies, you obviously have to inititate as you're the one without a projectile. perfectly spaced nairs are your best tool here. nair -> grab works (pay attention to them smash DI'ing the nair, or getting hit by the nair such that they are able to spotdodge before you can grab). also, by being the one moving around more, it is easier for you to go in for a grab when you have a solid read, as they will interpret your dash towards them as you going for a nair a lot of the time (conditioning). your nairs will also bait nairs from even the most defensive spacies (it's their best option), so look to dd grab those.
vs more defensive spacies, you obviously have to inititate as you're the one without a projectile. perfectly spaced nairs are your best tool here. nair -> grab works (pay attention to them smash DI'ing the nair, or getting hit by the nair such that they are able to spotdodge before you can grab). also, by being the one moving around more, it is easier for you to go in for a grab when you have a solid read, as they will interpret your dash towards them as you going for a nair a lot of the time (conditioning). your nairs will also bait nairs from even the most defensive spacies (it's their best option), so look to dd grab those.
ShrieK1295
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2009
- Messages
- 371
I have a question about using UAir to combo. Do you actually try to be precise with what part of the hitbox you hit them with? Right now, I'm basically just going with "delay the aerial as long as possible without letting them get out of hitstun"
Against new spacie players(just fox) i never really approach, i only go for aerials/ grabs after they overextend
B/c lets be real, falcon gets ****ed up over little things. Also keep a mental tally of how they tech after throws. But against falco, u must maintain special spacing in case he has a badly placed laser. Stay relatively close to falco and nair til he gets hit. The second u see falco in the hurt animation go for grab.
Keep it simple too, uthrow fsmash is ****ing awesome once they're at 85%. Keep an eye out if they tech after nair hits them, youll be suprised at how much nair will catch them off guard leading to
No tech on their part, which is a free knee assuming u can l cancel and ****. Also if they ever dash attack ur shield plz **** them up for it. (watch scar vs mdz at big house 2, mdz dash attacks scars shield multiple times and gets kneed everytime)
Theres tricksies for days against spacies so just let me kno if u want more. In short play patient, know how to efficiently deal damage when ur supposed too, and keep track of their habits ( imo most important). Sorry for le wall of text im bored aa **** on my way to a college visit lmao. Oh yeah i also saw wenbobular give the only good advice hes ever given, have fun. Srry if it doesnt make sense either its early as **** over here.
B/c lets be real, falcon gets ****ed up over little things. Also keep a mental tally of how they tech after throws. But against falco, u must maintain special spacing in case he has a badly placed laser. Stay relatively close to falco and nair til he gets hit. The second u see falco in the hurt animation go for grab.
Keep it simple too, uthrow fsmash is ****ing awesome once they're at 85%. Keep an eye out if they tech after nair hits them, youll be suprised at how much nair will catch them off guard leading to
No tech on their part, which is a free knee assuming u can l cancel and ****. Also if they ever dash attack ur shield plz **** them up for it. (watch scar vs mdz at big house 2, mdz dash attacks scars shield multiple times and gets kneed everytime)
Theres tricksies for days against spacies so just let me kno if u want more. In short play patient, know how to efficiently deal damage when ur supposed too, and keep track of their habits ( imo most important). Sorry for le wall of text im bored aa **** on my way to a college visit lmao. Oh yeah i also saw wenbobular give the only good advice hes ever given, have fun. Srry if it doesnt make sense either its early as **** over here.
enCouRaging Bear
Smash Journeyman
I try hard not to get the back hitbox. It ruins my day.
I mean if you hit them forward with the weak hitbox (which is normally the "back" hitbox) it's pretty good.
the part of the uair hitbox you hit them with (assuming we're talking about facing forwards, and not backwards uair) USUALLY doesn't matter. usually, all that matters is that you're hitting them towards the end of their hitstun.
the most common situation where it DOES matter is uair -> knee, specifically uair -> knees where the uair is not l-cancelled because you never hit the floor. ones where you're in the air the whole time, so the entire uair animation plays out. in these situations, hitting with the tip of the uair can actually be the difference between being able to follow up with knee or not. this is because the inside of the uair hits them too close to the beginning of the uair animation for you to follow up with knee.
instant uair is something that i haven't been using enough recently. i think around Genesis 2 i'd discovered that it was key in the falco matchup (it's much better vs falco than vs fox, because falco being slightly taller makes it MUCH easier to hit him with it), so i'm glad you reminded me about it.
it's generally very good past the percents where it will knock them down.
the most common situation where it DOES matter is uair -> knee, specifically uair -> knees where the uair is not l-cancelled because you never hit the floor. ones where you're in the air the whole time, so the entire uair animation plays out. in these situations, hitting with the tip of the uair can actually be the difference between being able to follow up with knee or not. this is because the inside of the uair hits them too close to the beginning of the uair animation for you to follow up with knee.
instant uair is something that i haven't been using enough recently. i think around Genesis 2 i'd discovered that it was key in the falco matchup (it's much better vs falco than vs fox, because falco being slightly taller makes it MUCH easier to hit him with it), so i'm glad you reminded me about it.
it's generally very good past the percents where it will knock them down.
Windrose
Smash Lord
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- Mar 22, 2009
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- 1,470
yeah...instant upair is really hard? does anyone have a good method of doing it? "east coast up airs"
I can do it somewhat well with x (jump) -->up on analog stick + Z. But this is hard to do consistently without full hopping. It's even harder if you want to fast fall (are you supposed to fast fall?). It's also even MORE harder if you want to drift forward (or backward) while instant uairing.
C-sticking this type of upair seems impossible unless you play claw.
Tips?
I can do it somewhat well with x (jump) -->up on analog stick + Z. But this is hard to do consistently without full hopping. It's even harder if you want to fast fall (are you supposed to fast fall?). It's also even MORE harder if you want to drift forward (or backward) while instant uairing.
C-sticking this type of upair seems impossible unless you play claw.
Tips?
It's definitely possible to do them with c-stick without clawing. Just plug in a second controller for falco and try to uair him on the way up with the c-stick, that's how I practiced it. It's easier to do it fast with y + a but harder to drift. Basically the first method takes more speed and the second method takes more finesse with the control stick. I don't think fastfalling is necessary most of the time since it autocancels and you can drift out of range from followups.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
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- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
I just use up and A to Uair but sometimes I mess up :\
It's also just hard to space and is real bad if you miss because you're busy doing your flip when the only part that actually hits them is like the first 1/4 of the move
It's also just hard to space and is real bad if you miss because you're busy doing your flip when the only part that actually hits them is like the first 1/4 of the move
will try more instant uairs on falco
as a general question, does anyone have a consistent gameplan against falco?
i keep going through the process of remembering how to fight falco and then forgetting, and get rather fcked when i play falcos with different styles.
of course, this involves getting through lasers, avoiding utilts and bairs on the approach, and avoiding dairs/nairs on defense. i'm not looking for very specific answers, just your general thoughts on the matchup.
as a general question, does anyone have a consistent gameplan against falco?
i keep going through the process of remembering how to fight falco and then forgetting, and get rather fcked when i play falcos with different styles.
of course, this involves getting through lasers, avoiding utilts and bairs on the approach, and avoiding dairs/nairs on defense. i'm not looking for very specific answers, just your general thoughts on the matchup.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Get close enough to make lasers unsafe without running into stuff like Bair OoS / Uptilt
ShrieK1295
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2009
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- 371
I have this same experience as well. If Falco plays pretty much how I expect them to and how I'm used to them playing, I can go toe to toe with great players. But if their style catches me off guard, then I can lose to real scrubs as well. A question I have about that matchup is what I should be looking to do when they are on the ledge. I still get hit by double laser a crap ton.
Jeapie
Smash Journeyman
Hi,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFK_vsRTzhw&lc=A7k7tapy50Z9MByTTgBlILiTbBYs6xF78cUbOYqtq3o
im sorry for sharing such an old vid but I had to once i saw it again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFK_vsRTzhw&lc=A7k7tapy50Z9MByTTgBlILiTbBYs6xF78cUbOYqtq3o
im sorry for sharing such an old vid but I had to once i saw it again
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
i just want to see a video of a falcon just doing everything right perfectly and not getting janked by other characters dumb s***. watching good falcons appear to struggle against mediocre sheiks and stuff is upsetting
im kind of in a whiny mood atm lololol
im kind of in a whiny mood atm lololol
Windrose
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 1,470
that's the nature of the character. you have to play significantly better than your opponent to win vs falco.
The hardest thing right now for me is learning to shield falco's laser at the latest possible moment and not getting stuck in shield afterwards (either wave dashing out or jumping out)
for now i just run around platforms a lot and try to jump around lasers with nairs or double jump baits. being able to shield lasers efficiently helps a lot.
see any pros vs falco with any character, they just shield the lasers and immediately drop shield and do something, the shield stun is very short for lasers on shield.
being able to powershield would be best of course.
also buffer roll is great for escaping out of gay situations.
The hardest thing right now for me is learning to shield falco's laser at the latest possible moment and not getting stuck in shield afterwards (either wave dashing out or jumping out)
for now i just run around platforms a lot and try to jump around lasers with nairs or double jump baits. being able to shield lasers efficiently helps a lot.
see any pros vs falco with any character, they just shield the lasers and immediately drop shield and do something, the shield stun is very short for lasers on shield.
being able to powershield would be best of course.
also buffer roll is great for escaping out of gay situations.
Zhea
Smash Ace
You can punish poorly spaced lasers much the same way you can punish marth aerials that whiff in front of you: by side b-ing.
This is a really good mixup game against falcos who don't realize they can cc it safely to stupid high percents(it stops being a true cc at 50, but they go prone for awhile after it and side-b has way to much end lag to punish falcos roll from it), and a mediocre one against ones who do(if you call it and catch them before they land it's a free grab at low percents and free knees after that).
This mixed with short hop no ff nairs forces falco into a 50-50 situation with his laser game and exposes newer falcos pretty hard. Against more seasoned falcos you will need power shielding.
Also have had some success screwing up falcos spacing by wave dash shielding towards and away from him. Can lead to free grabs or stomps OoS ocassionally.
This is a really good mixup game against falcos who don't realize they can cc it safely to stupid high percents(it stops being a true cc at 50, but they go prone for awhile after it and side-b has way to much end lag to punish falcos roll from it), and a mediocre one against ones who do(if you call it and catch them before they land it's a free grab at low percents and free knees after that).
This mixed with short hop no ff nairs forces falco into a 50-50 situation with his laser game and exposes newer falcos pretty hard. Against more seasoned falcos you will need power shielding.
Also have had some success screwing up falcos spacing by wave dash shielding towards and away from him. Can lead to free grabs or stomps OoS ocassionally.
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
i'd like to see an example of that in practice:
not because i doubt it, but because im really visually-oriented in terms of applying concepts like these
not because i doubt it, but because im really visually-oriented in terms of applying concepts like these
Zhea
Smash Ace
Umm for some visual representation, if falco is on one end a battle field platform and falcon is on the other end, that's too close for falco to land before the forward picks him up form a high laser.
ycz12
Smash Ace
The return of SS and Tang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvK4qNtuED0
flantasticflan
Smash Journeyman
What are some good ways to challenge Ganon's fair? I seem to get stuck sometimes when I'm at the edge, I also get jabbed quite a bit out of doing a move