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Bust a Move/Puzzle Bobble Mafia..... GAME OVER!

Kantrip

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Wait so if Ryu is scum, you think it's scummy that I was voting 194 instead of him when 194 was ALSO SCUM? Where are you getting this meta of "as town I moreso vote who I am interested in"? I vote who I think is scum, in the most general of terms.

I just see no way this makes sense to me. I never applied my vote to Ryu because:

-I notice he is lurking and coasting. I mention something along the lines of "he likes to do this as scum, we will lynch him if it keeps up". At this point, he is NOT a scum read, just an "I've got my eye on you".
-The coasting keeps up. At some point I get a scumread on 194. My vote goes on 194.
-Red Ryu comes in to do nothing but try to distract from the 194 wagon and he gets my FoS as I believe him to be 194's scummate. 194 is still a stronger scumread and so there's no reason to give Ryu my vote over him.

At NO POINT did I have a scum read on Ryu without having a stronger one on 194, so I don't understand what you are saying at all. I'm sorry.
 

Kantrip

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Just to clarify a second point: Assuming Ryu is scum, you think I am scum because I suspected both my scummates and put them in my "I want them dead pile" (without anyone else, might I add).

How crazy do you think I am to bus that hard?
 

#HBC | marshy

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It is Day Two.

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch!

JDietz(2): Kantrip, Vinyl
BSP(1): JDitz


Not Voting(7): Orbo, SneakyTako, BSP, Riddle, BarBelL, Rake, PrivateJoker

Deadline is set to: September 26th, 11:59PM MST
 

Shun Goku Satsu Rake

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Kantrip, if i can ask you a tangential question for a second, do believe Ryu to be town, or do you subscribe that many extraneous NA's took place which resulted in a no kill. And ryu being nabbed is a secondary byproduct
 

Shun Goku Satsu Rake

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Kantrip i'm going to let you in on a secret, i believe Ryu to be scum, i believe this because he only became interested in questioning all my tako stuff during his "catch up " phase, and he himself had admitted not to long before that , that his tako town read had dissipated,something he neither bother to elaborates on, nor sees the need to substantiate, in fact he flip flopped on tako a great deal.

It was only after i suggested he be shot that he showed any vested interest in questioning me vs. tako, and even in his catch up questions, they all served little purpose beyond seeming to be interested. He also put it down as TvT entirely too quickly , and this gave me the feeling he was going to that conclusion regardless. , in fact, i believe i managed to ninja him saying TvT with my large quote of myself wrt tako case.

Another thing which felt off was how he tried after to get me behind him on riddle, as he picked literally the same thing he had been doing , and in addition picked statements which seemed like general accusations stretched to be scummy, I.e saying something like : riddle is sitting in the shadow's or however Ryu put it, felt like he was finding the first thing he could in order to substantiate his read. Not so much in a sense of bussing , but more in a sense of "this person is acting questionable, i may be able to swing people this way."
 

Kantrip

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If it's not JD then yes, I believe Ryu to be scum. I doubt it's both of them, and I'm actually not getting indy vibes from what JD did (although the re-disappearance...) and am feeling more scum with him. Do you think it's possible that there is a 3-man scum team AND an indy in a 12-man game? Considering you were thinking a 194/Red Ryu/Kantrip scumteam, I'm going to go with yes, but don't you think that's a bit unbalanced?
 

Jdietz43

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Dietz, explain to me how you have Riddle cleared

Cleared was too strong a word for the category I threw people in, but this time I actually read most of his posts thoroughly. I personally don't know how Riddle plays before this game, on first inspection his posts seemed safe and droll (and I mostly skimmed them due to the fact nothing grabbed me). However, the opinions he has seem to be justified to the point I'm second-thinking him posting fluff vs. him having common opinions, and he does stick up for things he deems important when the occasion arises:

I NEED something more concrete than this. Give me a more certain opinion regarding Bardull or at LEAST clarify who you think the better targets for today are.
JDietz needs to claim at the very least before we lynch him. I would also prefer content from either Orbo or Rake, but it's not absolutely necessary.

Other than that, I'm good.

But honestly if we get deep down to it: I'm seeing a slot who could have pushed me over today and simply didn't, as well as Kantrip and Bardull making a huge fuss about me even considering him when I came in at the start of the day. I got to thinking maybe if they were that adamant that I was scummy for coming in with my reads list they had a good reason to tell me I was wrong.

:phone:
Yo: Dietz , your reminding me a little of your tekken play, so help me out here explain some stuff:

1: How is riddle cleared ?
2: Your focusing too much on Bardull's gambit Y/N ?
3: IS bardull scum gambiting y/n ?
4: Why would he gambit like this ?
1: See above
2: At the beginning of the day? Definitely
3. That's still up for grabs. I'd lean towards no after seeing his D1 play in full.
4: Bardull loves thread control. A lot.

Also:

5) Why is vinyl scum over dumb and why lynch him over it.
b) how do you even have vinyl as someone who can go, and why would he gambit a doc claim ? As in , how does the timing of it make sense at all.
5: It just felt really off to me the way he randomly soft claimed doctor before N1 started. Coupling that with a strange and otherwise unremarkable D2 put him on my "Just shove him out the door and be happy you don't have to think about it" list. The timing, really didn't make sense, but the way I saw it was Vinyl felt pressure during D1 and thought claiming doctor would be a derpy way to look like an important role (or at least a town throwing in some NA wifom). It's no secret we all like Vinyl but don't give him much credit as a logical mafia player. I guess what I'm saying is: I saw no reason a real doctor would out at that point, and didn't think Vinyl would think something like that through hard enough as a non-doctor town if he didn't just want to seem more PR important as scum.

Ok WRT JD first I have to explain some background.

JD, Joker, Toast and I just played in Newbie Cave Story together, where I was scum and they were all town. Day 1 I make a play in which I ask who was the strongest player, then immidiately cast my vote on them. I explain by doing this I both get a read on the strongest player and react to any votes against them. I also explain that any votes against me that didn't invovle strong logic was null.

To sum it up I made a weak trap that I fully explain later to earn the trust of town.

Now I consider JD's play in this game.

This post in particular won me over.



He suspects that I was doing the same thing day 1 with my chatterbox play. I would go so far to say that he suspects that the entire play was to earn town favor, he wants people to distrust me. If you look at just the results of day 1 I can say that indeed I did gain enough town favor to keep me from lynched for awhile (to which I owe Joker, well played bro), while scummy enough to make both mason unfavorable to NK.

If he was scum, he wouldn't have kept pushing my lynch when the majority had written off my play as dumbtown and wanted to move on. I think he is actually afraid that I might be pulling one over on him again, proof of that can be seen that he still doesn't believe me in day 2. He goes to great lengths to paint me as scum to the point where people find the information not helpful, which I find more town than scum.

Regarding his day 2 play, going against Bardul would be quite risky as scum, calling for lynch for no shot on the strongest day 1 town would be too risky considering 194 had died day 1. I don't trust Bardul either since he was the leader of day 1, but indeed JD did push too hard and he had to retreat. But he did get Bardul to confirm that he is not a Vig, which is somewhat notable imo. Day 2 I can understand him seeming scummy, but I see it more as paranoia against Bardul.




BUT THIS IS WHERE THE BAD NEWS STARTS JD

After considering what happened with RR abduct last night, I've been trying to consider who and why someone would abduct RR. It was apparent by the end of day 1 RR was our first batter's to lynch day 2, my initial thought was that the Indy may be super confident he can win on his own.

But now that I think about it, from my perspective the best abduct would have been either Joker or myself, more-so Joker. With my play in Day 1 I considered us impervious to NK since our flip would confirm the other's alignment, with the exception of a double NK on both of us which was unlikely. But an abduct would totally ruin this strat as if Joker was abducted, I would have no case to say I was town. He could potentially eliminate both mason's with one play.

If you consider that the chances of Joker and I being doced weren't great with Bardul around, who would want to abduct RR over Joker?

If JD still suspects that I'm scum during twilight then he can't afford to abduct Joker, because unlike Bardul he doesn't have a strong town position and he can't afford to have me lynched if I'm scum and he's Indy all by himself.

All things considered I still think JD isn't scum, but I suspect he might be Indy. The same indy logic appliies to Rake as well, but he has a littlle bit better town position though imo.

Now that I'm reading this to myself I feel really scummy but I suspect those who have a weak position in town who still believe me as scum more than RR as Indy, based off of RR abduct.

Lmao.

@JD: How do you feel about Rake being possible Indy.

@Everyone else What is our priority, determining if any scum remain or hunting the indy? I'm more afraid of indy atm.
That doesn't really make any sense to me. If I was the abductor and was in any way concerned about you being scum and breaking up the masonry: I'd just abduct you. I'd totally not even be worried about being in a bad position as town, in any case I'd want the people who could kill me without discussing it in public gone. I'd have an abduct, I wouldn't need anyone else's help getting to end game that bad. Even if I still wanted a shot's help I'd have no reason not to abduct Joker and just roll with you being alive. There's not a downside. I really just don't get what kind of tell you think that all is.

@Rake question: Could be, he did great town work as an indy in Utrick'd but after his Kantrip push I'm waffling on disliking him (am starting to trust him more). It's something I see both normal Rake meta and town intent in bringing up whereas if he was scum or Indy he'd have no qualms just going "Yep JD obv play today. Do it up." Long story short I'm now doubting it.

I already asked you this, but I just found this. Dietz, explain how your read on Riddle changed, especially if you hyper skimmed.
Hyper skimmed speedwise, not depthwise. I ended up looking at important looking posts (particularly of Riddle since people had an opinion that clashed with my base one) in depth, then speeding by anything that looked like fluff in between until the next chunky post. Hyper skim as in I was going as fast as I could and still feel comfortable forming opinions, but not to the point where I couldn't have an opinion on people.

You're ********. I didn't think RR was scum for real until I was already sold on 194 scum, and a large part of it was the connection between them. Your whole "Strike X" thing explained absolutely nothing as to what you actually thought was wrong with any of the things you underlined, and frankly I think what you have against me is so bull**** it's scummy.
You brought up RR points in a LOT of the posts Rake quoted for you not to "think RR was scum for real". I think it's valid to question why there was never an actual vote for him.

(I think what Rake is inferring/insinuating is at a certain point you may have stopped being truly concerned about the possibility of RRscum because you simply planned to abduct him that night)


This is the crux of stuff against JD, but it's quite compressed and doesn't go specifically into his posts. However, Rake, I am told you are quite proficient in reading JD. As town, would he:

-ignore the major wagon that leads to a lynch D1 (that ends up in a scum flip)
-throw serious accusations at players without having read (they weren't jokes or derpy, they just were unsubstantiated)
-disregard scumhunting and attribute all of his scumreads to indyreads
-use AtE and excuses when the above two points fall through in order to absolve himself of responsibility

I mean, I understand being jokey and hard-headed, but is that really what he was doing? It didn't seem like he was fooling around to me.
I hardly think I ignored it when the first time I came in after it having started I asked up front "What's up here? Can someone tell me?", then later after reading offered to give what I thought was the hammer vote, only stopping to see what Bardull would do about his shot claim before night hit.
 

Jdietz43

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EBWOP:

BSP response got tied up in his quote asking the questions.

Everything except "Dietz, explain to me how you have Riddle cleared" is my response.
 

Jdietz43

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This is the crux of stuff against JD, but it's quite compressed and doesn't go specifically into his posts. However, Rake, I am told you are quite proficient in reading JD. As town, would he:

-ignore the major wagon that leads to a lynch D1 (that ends up in a scum flip)
-throw serious accusations at players without having read (they weren't jokes or derpy, they just were unsubstantiated)
-disregard scumhunting and attribute all of his scumreads to indyreads
-use AtE and excuses when the above two points fall through in order to absolve himself of responsibility

I mean, I understand being jokey and hard-headed, but is that really what he was doing? It didn't seem like he was fooling around to me.
EBWOP2:

Forgot to address the other points here:
Besides asking for Bardull to clear up his shot, I don't think anything I did was a "Serious accusation" over statement of distrust/interest.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to be looking for indies when I suspect a two man scum team is out of commission and there's been an abduction. How is that disregarding scumhunting? Indies are scum. This point makes no sense.

I don't think that's resolving myself of responsibility. If anything I think noting "Maybe I'm wrong, let me re-read and see" is stepping up to the plate of responsibility. Ducking it would have been handwaving it and going "Eh I have reasons probably."
 

Jdietz43

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mainly cuz JD despite being a total derp , that isn't out of his town meta, neither is being hardheaded.
I will say however he reads like he's out of his comfort zone and i find myself swinging back and forth on him, whether this is due to JD not having time, or a possible slip is in the air.

Kantrip, can you give me some reasoning as to why JD isn't just being hardheaded/derpy town ?

I think you may have brought up some points, mind re-hashing them for me ?
Me being out of a comfort zone isn't inaccurate at all lol. It's mostly from lack of time, and especially from lack of confidence in reads that results from that. At the very least I haven't given up completely though, the pushes on me have given me a small baseline to work my reads back up from again.

Vote: Kantrip

You really want me dead, but not just dead: dead fast. The fact other people are noticing makes me think maybe I wasn't quite as crazy when I first game in here at the start of the day and said I was uneasy about you.

I don't know if Rake is seeing this line of thought in his own case when he made it, but now I'm wondering if you weren't the one who abducted RR just based on how much suspicion you threw on him without actually acting. You seem to be fighting hard to make the argument about Rake thinking you're mafia and how absurd that is rather than the much more tenable Indy.

Wait so if Ryu is scum, you think it's scummy that I was voting 194 instead of him when 194 was ALSO SCUM? Where are you getting this meta of "as town I moreso vote who I am interested in"? I vote who I think is scum, in the most general of terms.

I just see no way this makes sense to me. I never applied my vote to Ryu because:

-I notice he is lurking and coasting. I mention something along the lines of "he likes to do this as scum, we will lynch him if it keeps up". At this point, he is NOT a scum read, just an "I've got my eye on you".
-The coasting keeps up. At some point I get a scumread on 194. My vote goes on 194.
-Red Ryu comes in to do nothing but try to distract from the 194 wagon and he gets my FoS as I believe him to be 194's scummate. 194 is still a stronger scumread and so there's no reason to give Ryu my vote over him.

At NO POINT did I have a scum read on Ryu without having a stronger one on 194, so I don't understand what you are saying at all. I'm sorry.
Just to clarify a second point: Assuming Ryu is scum, you think I am scum because I suspected both my scummates and put them in my "I want them dead pile" (without anyone else, might I add).

How crazy do you think I am to bus that hard?
If it's not JD then yes, I believe Ryu to be scum. I doubt it's both of them, and I'm actually not getting indy vibes from what JD did (although the re-disappearance...) and am feeling more scum with him. Do you think it's possible that there is a 3-man scum team AND an indy in a 12-man game? Considering you were thinking a 194/Red Ryu/Kantrip scumteam, I'm going to go with yes, but don't you think that's a bit unbalanced?
I don't get where you're getting this from since iirc Rake was interested in the possibility of Indy Kantrip when he made his case, not Mafia Kantrip. Unless I missed some post where Rake came out with MafiaKantrip, but I didn't see it in the posts between when he made his big quote case and now.

(Also at one point you state "If Ryu comes back" as if you planned for a scenario where Ryu never returned. Small, but as town I'd hope you would be planning for a dead abductor and the possible RRscum returning instead of a scenario where presumably the abductor has won)
 

Kantrip

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@Jdietz: Rake's case resolved around my interactions with 194 and Red Ryu. If he was making a case for indyKantrip, my interactions with mafia would be irrelevant because indy and mafia don't have connections to each other.

You think I might be the abductor because I "threw suspicion on RR and then didn't act on it"? WGHAT? How the **** am I supposed to act on suspicion of my SECONDARY SCUMPICK? You're both raising this point as if I'm supposed to have two votes or something so we can kill RR and 194 in one day. How the hell am I supposed to know why RR was abducted? It was a dumb move by the abductor because he would've been an easy mislynch.

That last thing in brackets is just stupid. I didn't use the word "when" because "when" is an absolute and it is not 100% that Red Ryu is coming to the game. Of course I'm planing for a dead abductor and a returning possible RRscum, but I'm not going to call it a guarantee.

Wanting you dead fast is scummy how?

Reach harder.
 

Kantrip

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I actually do agree with what you have to say about Vinyl though. The doc claim before N1 was fine, because I think it's fairly obvious he was lying and seemingly trying to draw the NK. Where this stops making sense is the part where apparently he has some sort of flavour guilty which means he has some sort of investigative PR. Why on earth would you draw the NK as an investigative PR?

Would anyone else be opposed to Vinyl full-claiming and explaining what the **** he is doing ASAP?
 

Jdietz43

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@Jdietz: Rake's case resolved around my interactions with 194 and Red Ryu. If he was making a case for indyKantrip, my interactions with mafia would be irrelevant because indy and mafia don't have connections to each other.

You think I might be the abductor because I "threw suspicion on RR and then didn't act on it"? WGHAT? How the **** am I supposed to act on suspicion of my SECONDARY SCUMPICK? You're both raising this point as if I'm supposed to have two votes or something so we can kill RR and 194 in one day. How the hell am I supposed to know why RR was abducted? It was a dumb move by the abductor because he would've been an easy mislynch.

That last thing in brackets is just stupid. I didn't use the word "when" because "when" is an absolute and it is not 100% that Red Ryu is coming to the game. Of course I'm planing for a dead abductor and a returning possible RRscum, but I'm not going to call it a guarantee.

Wanting you dead fast is scummy how?

Reach harder.
So you don't think he was making a case for IndyKantrip? That was my understanding of his intent when he came in and prefaced the large post.

As far as talking about your RR suspicion, I was just envisioning a world where as an Indy you thought RR was scum and brought him up constantly because you legitimately thought he was a scum threat, then at the end of the day settled in on 194 without a fuss because you knew you could whisk RR away. It's just a vibe I got reading all those quotes and then thinking about how the results of the morning went.

I admit the second part is nonsense lol.

I think it is very important the speed at which you want someone dead. Bardull wants me gone just as bad if not worse, but for the most part he's at least waiting it out and talking to use the time we've been alotted. You seem a lot more twitchy on the trigger finger.

I actually do agree with what you have to say about Vinyl though. The doc claim before N1 was fine, because I think it's fairly obvious he was lying and seemingly trying to draw the NK. Where this stops making sense is the part where apparently he has some sort of flavour guilty which means he has some sort of investigative PR. Why on earth would you draw the NK as an investigative PR?

Would anyone else be opposed to Vinyl full-claiming and explaining what the **** he is doing ASAP?
I think he's doing that atm once he gets whatever info he's looking for.

(And actually, I felt better about him after the flavor claim part. It sounds backwards but it's how it is. I don't know how it jives with the earlier doc post, but I guess we'll find out when he elaborates and can judge then)

Jdietz: Coming into D2, did you feel that RR was scum?

How much of your hatred towards me is OMGUS?
Yeah. I wasn't seeing the 194 lynch as a surefire bet and had been giving RR the benefit of the doubt, but after the flip RR's stances started looking pretty scummy.

Probably a substantial amount, you've been grinding my gears, but I'd rather be wrong and vote a few times than stagnate completely.
 

Kantrip

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So you don't think he was making a case for IndyKantrip? That was my understanding of his intent when he came in and prefaced the large post.
His case was about 90% based off of my connections with 194 and Red Ryu. So no, he was NOT making a case for IndyKantrip.

As far as talking about your RR suspicion, I was just envisioning a world where as an Indy you thought RR was scum and brought him up constantly because you legitimately thought he was a scum threat, then at the end of the day settled in on 194 without a fuss because you knew you could whisk RR away. It's just a vibe I got reading all those quotes and then thinking about how the results of the morning went.
That's ********. I didn't "settle" on a 194 lynch. He was a larger scumread than Red Ryu ever was. What part of that aren't you understanding? And I don't see why an indy would abduct their scumreads rather than pushing to get them lynched. That's not the optimal play there.

I admit the second part is nonsense lol.

I think it is very important the speed at which you want someone dead. Bardull wants me gone just as bad if not worse, but for the most part he's at least waiting it out and talking to use the time we've been alotted. You seem a lot more twitchy on the trigger finger.
Bardull agreed with me ("Kantrip, I love you") when I mentioned the quicklynch. I don't see how I'm being portrayed as some sort of supermarshy here.

I think he's doing that atm once he gets whatever info he's looking for.

(And actually, I felt better about him after the flavor claim part. It sounds backwards but it's how it is. I don't know how it jives with the earlier doc post, but I guess we'll find out when he elaborates and can judge then)
The flavour thing helps explain why he wanted a mass-claim Day 1 (but if his role is how I think it is he went about it ALL WRONG). My issue lies in bringing attention to himself by claiming doc if he has a PR. It doesn't line up.


Yeah. I wasn't seeing the 194 lynch as a surefire bet and had been giving RR the benefit of the doubt, but after the flip RR's stances started looking pretty scummy.

Probably a substantial amount, you've been grinding my gears, but I'd rather be wrong and vote a few times than stagnate completely.
Alright, that explains the indy thing for me, thanks.

Next order of business is having Vinyl explain what's going down with his alleged result.
 

Jdietz43

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Alright, I know what you're saying on Vinyl and I agree fake claiming doc to attract a night kill doesn't make sense if you're important. (just for some reason the way he went about asking today made me feel better... it's not logical when you examine it, but it's just how it makes me feel)

Unvote

Let's see what he has to say
 

Shun Goku Satsu Rake

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If it's not JD then yes, I believe Ryu to be scum. I doubt it's both of them, and I'm actually not getting indy vibes from what JD did (although the re-disappearance...) and am feeling more scum with him. Do you think it's possible that there is a 3-man scum team AND an indy in a 12-man game? Considering you were thinking a 194/Red Ryu/Kantrip scumteam, I'm going to go with yes, but don't you think that's a bit unbalanced?
Not unbalanced at all.
Ryu's Disney mafia had the same set up. I'm not throwing out the possibility of a 3 mn + indy unless we lynch indy town today and the only thing that happens at night is an abduct.
If this is the case that would do 2 things : 1) pretty much prove Ryu was scum or we have a genius doctor. 2) turn this into a full fledged indy hunt.


Alright, I know what you're saying on Vinyl and I agree fake claiming doc to attract a night kill doesn't make sense if you're important. (just for some reason the way he went about asking today made me feel better... it's not logical when you examine it, but it's just how it makes me feel)

Unvote

Let's see what he has to say
Vinyl may have just been spreading wifom to muddy the waters between him and bardull, it's also possible he needed to be targeted
 

Vinylic.

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Vinylic.

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I missed riddle's, so orbo is left, I suppose. Ryu can't flovor claim since he's missing though.

I'm making a full claim after this.
 

Kantrip

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Chack [Animal]

Nope, I lost the tourney pretty bad. I got salty after T-block's comeback against me and sucked for the rest of my friendlies, too. Sorry to leave you all waiting.
 

#HBC | Joker

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I think I might know where Vinyl is going with this... are you gonna say that BarDulL and Kantrip are scum because of their [Animal] roles, which is the same as scum194? Cuz that'd be kinda.... ********....

plz say that's not it
 

Kantrip

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In case you've forgotten, 194 had a safeclaim that wasn't [Animal]. Chances are if scum were all [Animal]s, they would also have non-[Animal] safeclaims. Vinyl clearly has some sort of power that pertains to these tags.
 

Shun Goku Satsu Rake

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actually , 194 didn't do any brackets ,for the specific reason it may have been damning to do so, he just claimed VT if i remember correctly
 
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