KillerJawz
...
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 4,285
Notice: I am currently finding ways to make the input look nicer in this post, any suggestions are welcome
Welcome to a brand new thread, spawned from an idea the peach boards, and a few other boards have come up with over the past few months. Basically, in this thread, obviously our discussion will revolve around Samus, but instead of examining her as a character, we want to get right down to the specifics of her moves. This idea sounds familiar and has been done, but not in the format I wish to place this in.
I would like this 'list' to consist of every single move Samus has, im not talking about combos, im talking about the moves in general. What moves beat those feared moves that we all cry upon seeing (MK's Nado, Marth's UpB), how can we use our moves in a way that being punished is unlikely?
I wish to place these moves into a 'tier list' of sorts and help out players who are struggling with certain situations. For example, your being pressured by Marth's fairs, what move can you instantly pull out to counter it? The better and less punishable these moves are, the higher on the list they go and so on. It's not just about what counters what however, it's also about the general aspects of moves. What is good for KOing?, what's good for spacing? Consider all of these questions, but we are basically looking at what moves do their specified job best, in order to rank them
For the first few days, we can discuss a move, after a few days of the discussion have passed AND we have enough information to help out other players, we can start a new move and redo the cycle (I already know SOME of her moves have been discussed already, however, the data can be far easier to access here)
TL;DR version: Making tier list for Samus' moveset, contribute please <3.
Below is the key for understanding the colour definitions used in this thread:
Green = We have finished this discussion
Yellow = We are currently on this discussion
Red = We have come back to this discussion
Cyan = Title or heading
Plum = Important Link
Changes to the thread:
*The color Cyan was added to the key
*Charge Shot information has been added
*Why does Samus even have this move? (F) tier has been renamed to Bottom Tier (F), Bottom Tier (E) has been renamed to Terrible (E) Tier
*New color Plum for important links
*Added a Important Notice section
*Updated Important Notice section
Pros:
*Good for camping
*Good KO move for Samus
*Ranged projectile
*Can be charged up and released before maximum charge.
*Does 26% damage (highest amount of ANY projectile in the game excluding Peach's 'corrupt' turnip)
*Messes up characters with bad recoverys at low %s.
*At a high charge, it has very good priority.
Cons:
*Some starting/ending lag
*Projectile is quite slow
*The move will decay REGARDLESS of the charge power
*Will dissapear if it travels to far
*Cannot be charged in mid air
*Pushes user back when shot in mid air (push back is dependent on charge power)
*Can be absorbed by energy absorbing moves (Ness + Lucas' down b, Game & Watch's down b), reflected (Fox, Falco, Wolf, Zelda, Mario's reflectors/cape) and countered (Ike, Marth)
KillerJawz's input:
Charge Shot can be used in a flury of missles and zair for a complete mindgame, it's awesome, so camping with it is brilliant, and it can give you a bit of breathing space if your feeling the pressure, I find a nice ledge hopped CS works wonders on the likes of MK.
CS is a decent gimp along with your options. When I run off stage and CS, its so far from me that I take literally no risk apart from that push back the Samus user has (in the opposite direction of where you shot the CS) when it is launched aerially, but even then, you shouldn't be troubled by it to much, just make sure you will be in a position afterwards where recovery is literally guaranteed.
LanceStern's input:
It definitely has great mind game potential with the Charge cancel. Opponents are often quick to approach me when I'm charging.
It's definitely great after knocking them on the floor too. If they try to tech roll or get-up roll it often times hits them anyways. We pretty much shoot it from a far/mid range distance away, so it's very hard to punish the move.
tha_carter's input:
One thing thats not discussed often is charge shot intimidation. Having that little sparkling light beside your cannon changes peoples view on samus. They airdodge ALOT more, and basically live in defense.
Another thing worth noting is it can out prioritize alot of other projectiles. So sometimes it can be used defensively. To eat through your oppents projectiles and hit them WHILE still protecting you.
NO-IDea's input:
Charge Shot is an actual camping mechanism for Samus.
Thus, to reiterate, Charge Shot is truly reserved for camping only. From Charge Shot, we commit time in investing damage into an attack while reacting accordingly to our opponent. The charge cancel into shield is where this special really shines.
This is all available to us while charging a projectile that does 26% fresh. The more options Samus has, the better. In other words, if you're far away from your opponent, you can effectively camp, invest, and have as many defensive routes as every character in the game. The frames to cancel aren't as much as Sheik's needles or Mario's FLUDD, so in comparison, Charge Shot truly is better both in damage output, knockback and options.
Unfortunately, the move did receive a nerf, so to use it as a kill option has to be decided early. If you want to use it as a kill option, perhaps a camping Samus is not your forte. Samus isn't good at refreshing her moves in general (z-air doesnt' refresh and she doesn't pummel as much as other characters because of her lack-luster grab.) If you want to use charge shot as a damage racker, then the full potential of this move is available to you.
They may not expect a half-charged shot. Short hopping the half-charged can also shield poke. I wouldn't recommend this if you plan on using the Charge Shot as a kill option.
Conclusion
NO-IDea thinks: A Tier
LanceStern thinks: A Tier
KillerJawz thinks: A Tier
Overall conclusion: A Tier
Discussion - (28/11/09) - (2/12/09)
Power & Homing Missles
Pros:
*Two different missles, each with different qualities
*Ability to home in on opponents
*Refresh other moves easily
*Can stop approaches
*Lead into 'combos'
*Lag of the missles can be cancelled
Cons:
*Not much knockback from either missle
*Easily reflected
*Easily punished close up
NO-IDea's Input: If I were to rank the two together, it would automatically be S rank. The utility of the move is incredible and your ability to use missiles will make or break your game.
I would also have to consider missiles as an approach option more than anything. The ability to camp with missiles is nullified both by it's ending lag and the opponent's ability to perfect shield. Furthermore, it's not necessarily the best option to use defensively compared to other tools such as z-air, b-air and up+b which can be used as spacing punishers.
This brings in missile canceling, which every Samus main should be able to do proficiently after the first week of picking her up. Missiles, unlike say Falco's lasers, have decent range WHILE being slow enough to follow up on. Both projectiles force a response, but missiles give Samus the ability to predict and even react accordingly to any option the opponent makes. It's her turnip or her bananas. Yes, it's viable to play with light use missiles or without them at all, but you'd be severely handicapping yourself.
Use missiles to bait air dodges into u-tilt. Use missiles to bait a shield which can turn into a grab. Use missiles as an anti-camping deterrent and force them to approach. You can even use missiles as a potential kill set-up, chaining the likes of f-smash, d-tilt and charge shot.
Mr.9's Input: Now I will say they are great combined, mixing both missiles together is very tasty, and even more delicious when mixed with CS.
Throwback's Input: Short Hopped Missle Cancel (regular) -> dtilt is super awesome
Smash missiles from the ledge hurt shields.
Nexus Bond's Input: Regular missiles do 5% damage and have very little knockback and Super Missiles do 10% damage with some knockback at higher percentages, and the ability to knock down the opponent at mid-percents (unless they tech, obviously).
Regular missiles home in and travel slowly. Super Missiles travel in a straight line and accelerate. Also, a Super Missile reflected travels EXTREMELY fast back to you, so be careful if you happen to be fighting people with reflectors.
Conclusion
NO-IDea thinks: Homing Missles A, Super Missles A.
Nexus Bond thinks: Homing Missles B, Super Missles C.
KillerJawz thinks: Homing Missles B, Super Missles C.
Mr 9 thinks: Homing Missles A, Super Missles B.
Throwback thinks: Homing Missles B, Super Missles B.
Overall Conclusion: Homing Missles B, Super Missles B.
Pros:
*Destroys shields
*Has a very large hitbox, both startup and aerialborne
*Multihits
*Good OoS option
*Good recovery range
Cons:
*Can be SDIed out of
*Left aerial and useless after attack is done
IsmaR's Input: It is god tier on Brinstar. Just saying.
It's very useful for following up other moves(aerial U-air/SHFF U-air on grounded enemies, D-air on the ground, dash attack, etc.) and the aerial version is great for eating shields, refreshing other moves quickly, and escaping certain moves, like Snake's N-air. The only real drawback is if the opponent manages to shield it or SDI out of it and punish the end lag.
Throwback's Input: It has 0 invincibility frames.
NO-IDea's Input: Up+b becomes a great OoS punisher. You can also move left/right while in animation to prepare your landing/mess up opponent's SDI attempts.
With all this said and done, this move doesn't benefit Samus's worst MUs (MK, Olimar, D3 IMO.) Meanwhile, they strengthen her more favorable MUs, which is nice, but because of their usual large size, another move could have been more appropriate too. For example, Samus could easily u-smash or grab OoS rather than up+b on large characters. The punishment is practically the same if you whiffed with any of those moves, but grab/u-smash has more potential to follow-up on.
If I were to judge this move, it'd be less on the fact that it's a great situational move and more on the basis that its utility is lack-luster if you play someone who's proficient at SDI.
LanceStern's Input: Use Up B under MK to reak havoc on him.
On Battlefield you can punish techs, rolls, and ANYTIME they are above you it's abusable. Anywhere else (except maybe Brinstar and some extent Delfino) it's dangerous to use besides a surprise attack or OOS.
Darkshadow7827's Input: I use it to punish aerial approaches. It's excellent for stages with platforms. Good damage racker. After the move, you are left helpless. It can be SDIed out of. I think it's a bit situational and can't be spammed. more often than not, opponents won't SDI out of it. But when whiffed, the consequences (dmg, especially with samus' lack of killing power and lack of effective momentum cancel) are brutal. I think on average, it's somewhat reliable.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: B Tier
IsmaR thinks: B Tier
NO-IDea thinks: C Tier
LanceStern thinks: B Tier
Throwback thinks: C Tier
Mr9 thinks: B Tier
Darkshadow7827 thinks: B Tier
Overal conclusion: B Tier
Morph Bombs
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221076&highlight=morph+ball+bombs - Very important link about morph bombs, extensive discussion, please give it a read.
Pros:
*More recovery
*Air stalling
*Nice hitbox range
Cons:
*Don't explode on contact
*Poor Knockback
*Alot of startup and ending lag
KillerJawz's Input: They come out quite slowly and don't explode straight away. They can be used on ledges to fall down on recovering opponents so they are very good for setting up gimps. The ending lag on bombs is punishable however, so they cannot be used close up, or frequently. They can also be used to recover from distances or stall until the opponents invincibility frames run out on a ledge, giving us time to recover.
DarkShadow's Input: A bomb can lead into setups if it hits. Bombs have incredible lag even if you hold down on stage, bombs don't do enough damage to justify the risk of using them.
IsmaR's Input: They're good for breaking out of certain moves((IC's especially)CGs, MK's nado, tech chasing with Snake/Ganon, etc.). Throw them in for erratically moving around, throw off your opponents, and frustrate them with spacing. I'd say D-tier.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: D Tier
IsmaR thinks: D Tier
LanceStern thinks: E Tier
Mr9 thinks: E Tier
Darkshadow thinks: E Tier
Overall conclusion: E Tier
Pros:
*Massive range above and infront of Samus
*Good KO move
*Good Edgeguarder
*Punishes airdodges
*Has different knockback angles
Cons:
*Noticable ending lag and startup lag
*One angle has terrible knockback
Karcist's Input: It's great for hitting people that are standing on platforms above you. Most people expect a screw attack so this can throw people off a little bit.
LanceStern's Input: Utilt is also useful for anti-air attacks when the opponent is in front of you. It actually has decent priority and the hitbox is strange.
Mr: 9's Input:
the knock back angle changes depending on if the opponent is in the air or on the ground[/QUOTE]
KillerJawz's Input:
It has some startup and ending lag, but nothing TO signficant. The move has ENORMOUS range, especially for a tilt, and it can eat air dodges towards the ground very well, aswell as spot dodges, but it can be punished if it misses. It's one of Samus best edgeguarding tilts, and for Samus, can KO relativly well, especially at the edge. If the opponent is hit just as the move starts, they will be sent in a diagonal path away from Samus, if they are hit as the move is coming down, they are sent directly fowards, if they are hit with the slam of the foot they are sent upwards, the final angle of the move has the least knockback.
Conclusion:
Karcist thinks: D Tier
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier
Mr. 9 thinks: C Tier
LanceStern thinks: C Tier
Overall Conclusion: C Tier
Pros:
*Good range
*Very fast
*Little ending lag
*Punishes rolls and spotdodges
Cons:
*At lower percentages, it has extremely poor knockback
KillerJawz's Input: Forward tilt is an interesting and definatly useful move. The speed in which this move comes out is very nice and it has literally very little lag, so you can use for a safe GTFO move to compose yourself. The move's knockback concerns me though, at lower percentages, it's not good for getting a person away from you, it's better to annoy them, like Falco's lazers do and rack up the damage.
Muz's Input: +Angling the ftilt up OR down adds 3 percent to the damage (doing 10% instead of 7%).
+Although the regular ftilt is terrible at low percents (if you hit the opponent they can hit you back during your lag animation), BUT you can avoid this retaliation by either spacing yourself properly or by angling the attack as it will push them further away and with more stun.
+Ftilt works great against certain projectiles with little hit stun like falco's lasers, because you can take the hit then immediately ftilt retaliate before he finishes the attack animation. This is useful if you screw up a normal powershield approach.
+Angling the ftilt down can hit people who are holding the edge too long, sending them away at a much better angle than hitting them with dtilt or dsmash, and sets them up for some gimping.
+Angling the ftilt up can beat MK's tornado if timed properly.
+ftilt works well against people getting up from the edge because of its range and low cooldown. If they roll instead, you can usually follow with a downsmash to get them. And if they jump, do an upair/upB afterwards.
+You can "combo" an ftilt from many moves samus has (jab, fair, upair, dair, zair, dash attack, missile, bomb).
+If you bair someone's shield with the maximum distance possible, you can get a free ftilt when they whiff their grab attempt or when they drop their shield.
-Characters with long grab ranges (link, TL, olimar) can shield grab the ftilt even if you spaced it maximally.
-The unangled ftilt will sometimes completely miss characters near you if they are ducking (like kirby) or during certain parts of their attack animations which puts them low to the ground (like zelda's b-air)
-Its often easy for a good opponent to see a ftilt coming, and they will roll towards you and punish the lag, so you need to make sure you're not predictable.
Ismar's Input: It's really good for punishing rolls and spotdodges, and has pretty good range overall. It can also set up some situational strings,
No one ever really expects it. That makes it good for mindgames, especially when you angle it up on people above you/on platforms.
LanceStern's Input: Ftilt is a great move. I mentioned it before but it's probably one of the safest moves for us to space and punish with because
a) It has a the biggest horizontal range of any of her ground moves and comes out fast.
b) It has the least amount of cooldown after it comes out.
Because it reaches so far you can punish a good deal of moves and it resets your spacing. i like to use it to poke at people as well (kind of like Dedede's ftilt).
Then there's the option to tilt the ftilts. We learned a good amount of months ago that ftilt tilted down has a disjointed hitbox (extends her torso and shoulders a little upwards) so you can combo out of a ff uair. Ftilt tilted down also knocks the opponent off stage at an uncomfortable angle for them. You just trade a little range.
Tilting ftilt up is one of my favorites. It is EXCELLENT for anti-air tactics and keeping your opponents sh-aerials out of your face. I use it a lot against ness, lucas, even marth. You hit them once or twice with the move and they rethink coming in reckless. I love to combo ftilt after jab cancelling. Don't tilt it up on short people if they are on the ground, but if you predict they will sh aerial, they are finished.
PROS Summary:
Fftilt(neutral) - Most horizontal range of any samus ground move. Great spacing tool and cools down quickly. It's the safest drop-your-shield and punish move Samus has.
Ftilt (up) - Amazing anti air attack, especially if you predict their sh-aerials. Better to punish than utilt if you're not trying to KO them.
CONS: Only con I can think of is it has very low (to no) shield stun, and at low percents it has low hitback; That means if you space it wrong on shield or at low percents you will be punished by characters with faster/greater range than you, but not much.
Compared to her other moves, I would say it's an B+ to A move. Samus mains if on the ground should be using it... but we mostly spend our time short hopping.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: B tier
IsmaR thinks: B tier
Mr9 thinks: C/B tier
Karcist thinks: A Tier
LanceStern thinks: High B Tier
Muz thinks: B Tier
Overall Conclusion: B Tier, Below Missles.
Start with using it as a follow-up move. Bomb > D-tilt, FF F-air > D-tilt, and jab > D-tilt at low % all work fairly well. D-tilt in itself isn't a very good KO move, but it isn't below average. Fresh ones can take out enemies, while overused ones act as a gtfo move. Whilst F-smash is a better KO move, I find it harder to land in most cases.
Using D-tilt on low ceiling stages depend on who works better on the stage. CPs consist of Brinstar, Halberd, and Battlefield. Obviously Snake is good on Halberd, several characters are good on BF, and Meta Knight and Wario work well on Brinstar. It boils down to your playstyle in the end. If you can learn to balance out your D-tilt with your other KO and damage-racking moves, you should be good to go in situations that demand D-tilt.
It's good for edgeguarding. Just as an example, I've played a Lucario who ***** me everywhere but the ledge. I ended up winning by Z-airing every attempt to recover over the stage, then catching him with D-tilt as he went for the ledge. It is also a very good move on stages characters can rise from, like Delfino, Halberd, Brinstar and pretty much any stage with platforms. The range is fairly good and most people won't suspect it unless you start spamming it.
RaigothDagon's Input:
Saving dtilt as a kill move vs characters that cant kill early on low ceilings. Usually smaller characters dont have good vertical kill moves and are easier to kill upwards anyway.
I seriously recommend using dtilt a lot in these matchups because it has deceiving range and can rack up damage quickly. What makes the hitbox more deceiving, especially against people who camp ledges, is when you learn to walk with dtilt resulting in a sliding dtilt.
I save my dtilt as a kill move, but it is the easiest of her moves to DI in order to live longer.
It is fast, start up is very close to her jab speed. The cool down lag of this move is terrible. The range of this move is very good though, if I recall right it reaches as far as ftilt does and keeps your hurtbox way out of the way. It is one of her best edge guarding moves (grounded) if you know how to space well. Timing it correctly coupled with walking towards an opponent to bait an edge attack is awesome.
It has good priority, and does a pretty sizable amount of damage. The main drawback that I cant emphasize enough is if it gets shielded. It is one of her more punishable moves.
mountain_tiger's Input: DTilt is good, but it has its problems. It's very fast in start-up considering that it kills at around 120-130%, but its cooldown sucks ***. If I recall correctly, cooldown is almost 40 frames, which means that it would be super punishable if they shield it. Its range is OK horizontally, but it only hits on the ground, which can make it hard to kill with since at higher percents they'll be expecting it and stay out of its range.
DTilt is probably her most reliable kill move (either that or FSmash), and as such is worth using, but you have to make yourself unpredictable when you use it, since everyone expects it of you (a bit like Peach with her Fair).
Karcist's Input: I find the down tilt to be a decent KO move, or even as a damage move. One thing I do from time to time is throw out a jab then instead of using the second jab I down tilt. It tends to knock people back far inside their shield to keep her safe if something goes wrong (unless they powershield). While this isn't a great KO move, it's one of the best she's got so I'd say it's pretty useful
Dryn's Input: It takes a total of 6 or 7 frames, I believe, and it has excellent range. Compare Samus' d-tilt with Zelda's. Zelda cannot hit Samus with her d-tilt in a particular range, but within that same range, Samus can hit Zelda.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: High B tier
IsmaR thinks: Low A tier
Mr9 thinks: A tier
RaigothDagon thinks: Low B tier
Karcist thinks: A tier
mountain_tiger thinks: B tier
Overall Conclusion: B tier, above Missles.
Pros:
*Very short start up and end lag
*Combos very well into other oves
*Refreshes moves very nicely
*Can be buffered
Cons:
*Lacks hitstun
*Lacks range
Dryn's Input: Samus' jab is 3 frames, and it does a total of 10% damage if fresh. That is 3% + (7%). The initial jab is perfect to poke at your opponent and then retreat. If the first hit lands, perhaps go for a d-tilt. Jab cancels are great, but watch out. Samus' jab lack hitstun, although it has great priority. Jab cancels are especially good if Samus is behind the opponent. The hitbox seems to be a bit large, because sometimes if Samus is facing away from her opponent, her opponent will still be hit. The second jab is somewhat useless, since the hitstun in the initial jab is lacking. If, however, your opponent is somewhat in the air, the second jab is guaranteed to land. It has a decent knockback, unlike the initial jab.
KillerJawz's Input: Samus' Jab is very interesting. You can buffer it to attack repeatedly simply by pressing down between each jab. You can buffer ALOT of moves out of a jab, dtilt is probably the most important. You can trick the opponent into thinking your going to use your 2nd jab, but instead give them a dtilt to the face. At lower percentages, the second jab knocks the opponent just far enough to combo into a charge shot very nicely, jabs are also a good gtfo move and good for refreshing other moves.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier (Together)
Mr9 thinks: C Tier
Overall conclusion: C Tier, below uptilt.
Pros:
*Good GTFO move
*Has nice knockback
Cons:
*Can be punished if grab is missed
NO-IDea's Input: I tend to always chain this to pivot grabs for some reason. Mostly because more than likely the pivot grab catches them off guard and therefore their DI messes up. It's a decent throw for follow-ups, in some ways better than Samus's down throw. 7% is great damage for a throw that resets spacing and allows for a continuation with her long z-air and slow but deadly (in the forceful response kind of way) missiles.
KillerJawz's Input: Well, Back Throw is a move that most Samus mains tend to underrated, for her much favored down throw. Her back throw is a SUPERB gtfo move at higher %s and can really help us out if the opponent is thrown off stage so we can proceed to spam missles and force a gimp. It can KO at VERY high %s, so if your struggling to land the kill, a pivot to back throw could mix things up nicely. However, the risk of missing the grab is still a factor when judging throws, a misplaced pivot does not go unpunished by ANY character.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier
NO-IDea thinks: B Tier
Mr 9 thinks: D Tier
DarkShadow thinks: C Tier
Overall Conclusion: C Tier, Above Jabs, Below Up Tilt.
Discussion - (4/1/2010) - (7/1/2010)
Up Throw
Pros:
*Fixed knockback at lower percentages
*Good GTFO move
*Set's up jab locks
Cons:
*Has no follow ups (except on Battlefield where you can perform uairs to chain)
*Cannot KO
mountain_tiger's Input: Samus' UThrow is far from amazing, but it does have its uses. You can't properly follow-up with anything, but it puts your opponent directly above you, and in the vast majority of cases having your opponent above you is a favourable situation, since a number of characters have a limited number of option for defending themselves from below. Plus it does 9% damage, which isn't too bad.
quiKsilverItaly's Input: If the enemy is above you, you have always the better cards with samus (for example use the long grab, if he lands back on the ground).
But a special way for the Up-Throw i just know for battlefield: If the enemy has low damage (~20), do a Uthrow at the middle of the map, so the enemy probably will land on highest platform and if the enemy is over you on a platform do one or two uairs, they are broken!
KillerJawz's Input: The UThrow is often used for the wrong reasons, the main one being to rack up damage, use dthrow if your going to that, if follows nicely into other things. UThrow is a really nice GTFO move so during the time the opponent is away from you, simply charge your CS. Also on Luigi's Mansion if you use the throw on the lower floor, you can immediatly begin your jab lock. However, as I said before, the move has absolutly no follow ups, it's an empty throw, and it can't KO either.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: D Tier
mountain_tiger thinks: C Tier
Overall Conclusion: Top of D Tier.
Pros:
*Nice knockback
*Plenty of follow ups
*Good damage racker
*Spacing tool
Cons:
*Punishable if grab is missed
*Very dependent on weight and percentage
Pick Random's Input: I can get heavies with a full charge shot right after it or use a small if they have little damage. Working the Fthrow in the game makes alot of good use. Great spacer if your following up with Zair or any missile. And of course if close to an edge, Fthrow and go for the quick spike.
KillerJawz's Input: Fthrow is one of my more frequently used throws, since it follows up into literally any sort of ranged or long range attack Samus has, and it's VERY difficult to avoid the follow ups, like zair or missle. It has some healthy knockback at higher percentages so it's much harder to punish if you space a zair wrong, or decide not to follow up. The main flaw this move has however is that it is highly dependent on the weight of your opponent, for a character like Jigglypuff, it is VERY hard to get a follow up.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier
Overall Conclusion: C Tier, below uptilt.
Pros:
*Great for combos at lower percentages
*Forces the opponent to react (baiting purposes)
Cons:
*Loses its usefulness at higher percentages
*Only does 6%
*Opponent can airdodge away and reset spacing
LanceStern's Input: Dthrow, if read correctly, can be followed up with a jumping charge shot or grounded charge shot -> grab/dashh attack. I love it at low percents.
NO-IDea's Input: Does a lousy 6%. Fortunately, it's great at low percents. U-air is alright, but f-air is better to bait air dodges. Up+b is okay, but if you miss, easy punishment. If you're really confident, follow-up with n-air or a pivot grab, since both of those options lead into more combo strings. Another thing to note, it's important to learn to buffer. If you're too slow, they can double jump away.
A combo starter at best, it loses it's luster at higher percentages, not to mention it's very susceptible to DI. Should be replaced with u-throw starting around 30% if you really want to send them above you. If you try d-throw from here, they'll double jump and reset their horizontal spacing, and from there Samus's only legit option to follow-up on is z-air. The fact that they know it's your only, albeit safe, option means they'll just air dodge and touch the ground. You could missile cancel, but then, again, u-throw is better since it does exactly the same thing as d-throw at those percentages but better.
Xyro77's Input: Down throw is nice for setting up for combos(u-air/fair/up+b) if the foe fails to airdodge. if they do airdodge its still good because the d throw put them in the air but not super high to where they have to time airdodge and move around. In other words, you can still use fair/uair/up+b after u read thier air dodge.
Conclusion:
NO-IDea thinks: Low C, High D tier
LanceStern thinks: D tier
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier
Overall Conclusion: Low C Tier, below upthrow
Pros:
*Has nice range
*Nice hitboxes
*CAN do 24% (Most likely never will)
Cons:
*Far to hard for the hits to connect
*Easily DI'ed out of
*Easily punished if missed
*Easily punished if it hits
*Ending and start up lag
NO-IDea's Input: Does 24% fresh. This move is very situational and therefore both undervalued and overestimated at the same time. Some of the obvious uses stated so far are heavies and large characters. They can of course SDI out and punish, b
It does have other uses though. It's great for platform pressure when players begin to expect u-air and u-tilt. If you charge it, their shield diminishes.
Another thing less commonly seen is smash canceling. That is, the shield knockback you get after smash attacking someone may cause you to fall off the platform/stage. U-smash seems to do this just as well as f-smash, leading into falling u-airs, which for Samus, any u-air leads to profit. On Lylat/BF, on those rare occasions both you and your opponent are on a platform, try it. You can even hyphen smash to position yourself to fall off. What are they going to do, shield it? Like you want them to? Bait and profit.
One thing I've personally found interest in is jump canceling u-smash. In other words, using it OoS without the 7 frame shield drop. I haven't found particular use for this yet, but I've seen legitimate uses of it with MKs and Wolfs.
Again, it's very situational and therefore overlooked in today's metagame.
KillerJawz's Input: Up Smash imo is a TERRIBLE move, it is incredibly awful. I tested this with a Bowser, and he was able to DI out of it at 0%, taking a mere 4% damage iirc, and was then able to punish me with a fffair. You can DI out of this move with so much ease that it's ridiculous. It will like NEVER get all hits on ANY character if they DI even slightly up. Granted all of its hits do over 20%+, but that will NEVER happen unless the opponent DIs down. This move also has startup and ending lag.
It does have some nice range, and if the opponent can't DI for ****, it can punish airdodges or laggy aerials. It gives a nice slide as a hyphen smash but that is honestly it's only benefit. IMHO use literally ANY other move in the game, I honestly believe her upsmash is her worst move.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: E Tier, High F
NO-IDea thinks: E Tier, High F
LanceStern thinks: D Tier, High E
Karcist thinks: F Tier
Overall Conclusion: Bottom of E Tier, Below Bombs
Pros:
*Nice range
*Can be tilted up and down
*Lots of versatility
*Multipurpose move, can be used for killing or setting up gimps
*Comes out fast
*Good GTFO move
Cons:
*Phantom hit
*Tilted up misses smaller opponents occasionally
*Bit of ending lag
mountain_tiger's Input: FSmash is, IMO, easily in the top two of Samus' most reliable killing moves alongside DTilt. Its start-up is fast for a smash attack, at 10 frames, and the range is not too bad, so it isn't extremely hard to connect with. What's cool about is that unlike DTilt, you can angle it to allow more versatility and a higher chance of connecting with it. Angling it down can hit crouching opponents or act as an edgeguarding tool, while angling it up acts as an anti-air move. It's quite weak by smash attack standards, but it's one of Samus' most powerful moves in terms of knockback, especially if angled upwards. high B tier.
-Cross-'s Input: Definitely a kill move for Samus. I personally favor the down tilted version because of the lower angle knockback which sets up a better opportunity to gimp. But since it reduces range I usually just do the non-angled one.
KillerJawz's Input: Samus's Fsmash is a very interesting move that can be used for a VARIETY of things, ranging from killing, to setting up gimps. Her fsmash can be tilted either down or up, or left as it as. Tilting the fsmash upwards gives it 1% more damage (14%), and more knockback, making it one of her best kill moves, HOWEVER, this also limits your options against small characters, since it can oftenly miss them, it's better for tall characters. Normal fsmash is a great kill move for smalls, it will ALWAYS hit them, and is a great damage racker on heavies. Tilted down fsmash is the weakest of the three types, however, it is BY FAR the most useful for gimps. It can knock opponents into a position where you can missle/zair gimp pretty easily without any major risk.
My major concern with this move however, is the ending lag. Now granted, for a smash, it comes out quite quickly, but the ending lag on it is pretty bad, and if the move is not spaced correctly, can be punished SEVERLY. I tend to use fsmash when im SURE it will land, or I won't be punished. The move has nice range, but nothing over the top, there is no disjoint on this move.
My BIGGEST concern, and this is major, is the fact that the move will MISS some characters when they are behind the cannon of your gun, I don't know why this happens, but it will occasionally miss, so I honestly prefer down tilt over it.
Conclusion:
mountain_tiger thinks: Bottom B/ Top C
KillerJawz thinks: Bottom B
-Cross- thinks: Bottom B
Overall Conclusion: Lowest of B.
Pros:
*Large range
*Two hitboxes
*Good shield pressure
*Does the highest damage out of all her smashes (Usmash is rubbish, it doesnt count
*Has a nice knockback angle to combo well
*Can cause semi frame traps
*Nice shield pushback
Cons:
*Lasts a long time
*Has punishable ending lag
*Cannot KO
IsmaR's Input: I particularly love using it on stages with bottom platforms that can be passed through, such as Halberd, Delfino, and Brinstar(doubles as useful there because it also helps break the platforms easier, since it's two hits and has decent range). It is considered one of those desperation killing moves, just slightly better than D-air on a grounded opponent and most dulled moves.
The back hit is, as pointed out already, very good for reading and punishing rolls, useful as a gtfo move, and can produce some mindgame stage spikes. Lastly, both hits are good for shield pressure. Everything else I wanted to cover was summed up in the last few posts.
KillerJawz's Input: This move has two hitboxes, each of them have their own percentages (14%-16% damage for front hit, depending where abouts on the leg you hit and 13%-14% for the backhit) The move has a SUPERB launch angle and can be great for setting up uair strings. At lower percentages, this move combos nicely after dair, giving you over 26% damage and is very hard to avoid. Fast falled uair to dsmash is VERY close to a frame trap since this particular smash is her FASTEST smash in terms of first hit (hits on frame 9) This move has nice range and provides ALOT of shield pushback/pressure on lighter characters shields.
This move does however have noticeable ending lag so it can be punished pretty easily if it's powershielded or it misses. The move cannot KO at reasonable percentages so it's strictly for racking up damage.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier
IsmaR thinks: C Tier
Karcist thinks: Top of D Tier
Mr9 thinks: D Tier
Overall Conclusion: Bottom of C Tier.
Discussion - (23/1/2010) - (28/1/2010)
Neutral Aerial
Pros:
*Large hitbox
*Good gimping tool
*Lingering hitbox
*Comes out quickly
*Combos well
*Good option OoS
Cons:
*Poor knockback
*Poor damage
*Ending lag
NO-IDea's Input: It's one of the few moves where nearly her entire body is the hitbox. Does measly damage and knockback, but because it comes out fairly fast and chains to many aerials after a short hop, it's great to pull out as a surprise attack.
Uses? Comboing of course, as the strong hit of n-air at weak percents can lead to dash attacks and dash grabs. The weak hit at higher percents result in the same follow-ups. It's also decent combo breaker in certain MUs a decent mind game when getting juggled.*
*By mind game, I refer to the options characters have when put above their opponent. Samus in particular has double jump, air dodge, retreating z-air, bombs, and n-air. N-air should be least used since it's easily punished by shield dash approach or beat by disjointed hitboxes, but it still qualifies in those MUs (Marth and MK in particular.)*
OoS n-air is a good punisher, although it's absurdly hard to follow-up on. Invincible n-air is decent, although superseded by u-air/f-air if you're trying for off-ledge combat. And finally, it's great for gimping, but only if you absolutely need to pull out a hitbox. Otherwise, it's better to bait/stall and just attempt the d-air.
-Cross-'s Input: I like this option OoS while charging charge shot. The safest and quickest forward attack from that position. I like this after SH uair>FF nair on shield. I only do the nair if I end up behind the opponent though, if I land in front, it's an auto shield grab. Gimping has been mentioned but since its faster than dair I like it just as much. Nair works just as well as dair in terms of gimping against anybody without a good recovery. Good combo breaker move also.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: D Tier
-Cross- thinks: C Tier
NO-IDea thinks: C Tier
Karcist thinks: Bottom of C Tier
IsmaR's reserved think section:
Overall Conclusion: Bottom of C Tier atm.
Pros:
*For Samus, Or actually in general, a decent KO move (LOL SAMUS ACTUALLY HAS ONE XD).
*Has nice range
*Baits a shield
*Hard to DI
*Has very nice setups
Cons:
*One of her slower aerials (still frame 9 hit though, not bad)
*Has a sour spot and sweet spot
*Pretty hard to land
-Cross-'s Input: A cool t to get auto-sweetspot on bair everytime, is if you SH and bair twice at optimal speed. The second bair, if you hit a with the tip of her foot will always be sweetspot.
LanceStern's Input: bair -> walljumping off of stages like battlefield and running directly off the edge of a stage and immediately backairing.[/QUOTE]
NO-IDea's Input: 10% normal, 14% and higher knockback sweetspotted. Also a really hard move to DI. One of those moves with high knockback that if you DI directly up, you can still be killed vertically depending on your character's weight class.
However, there are solid ways to land it. For example, platforms are a great way to set-up a b-air hit. Bait their shield, then attempt to shield poke. Read their air movements through a platform, bait their air dodge and punish. Start up with u-air, then avoid using the last hit of u-airs hitbox and switch into b-air.
The other common way to land b-air is off missile canceling. Homing missiles usually, but I've chained b-air off super missiles before at low percents. Also in common with platform pressuring, be sure to bait the shield if you're going for the b-air. And to space for the sweet-spot! This is very important. Higher shield stun and longest spacing = less punishment options for your opponent.
Finally, while b-air isn't the best spacing maneuver, it still is a great spacing punisher. It can punish Marth's f-air, DK's b-air and most other typical aerial spacers. Again, it all comes down to baiting and punishing. If they're going to use a rising aerial against you, short hop bait and b-air them. If they use a falling aerial against you, then get into their zone and punish OoS with up+b or n-air. If they use a retreating aerial against you, you can outspace them with z-air. In other words, don't let them spam aerials since you have an answer to all three kinds of them.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: B tier
NO-IDea thinks: B tier
DelxDoom thinks: B tier
Overall Conclusion: B tier, below fsmash.
Pros:
*Combos well
*Outstanding priority
*Great range
*Autocancels into combos
*Very fast
*Very little ending lag
*Gimps well
*Great shield pressure
Cons:
*Can be DIed out of
*Final hit loses its touch at higher %s.
-Cross-'s Input: Uair as you said is definitely a candidate for her best aerial move. Multi-hit, comes out quickly, and combos ridiculously well. Tied for fastest aerial, starting at frame 5 and having multi-hitboxes makes it amazing for shield pressure in the form of platform pressure. Your pretty much guaranteed something good whether its getting a low shield or getting some damage, when you use uair on an opponent. When grounded, its riskier to get the uair off, but the rewards are just as great. I remember Xyro mentioning falling uair>upB is almost a guaranteed shield poke.
Autocancelling uair combos into upB and more moves with higher %, while landing all the hits on an airborne opponent may lead to a zair, a fair/nair, and even another uair.
Also the range on this move is absolutely ridiculous. In terms of its ability to shut off aerial approaches from above, this move takes the cake. For instance, I have had numerous instances where I have beaten G&W's dair head on with uair. Screw attack can not do this.
Its ability to shut off vertical approaches makes it an incredibly safe alternative compared to Screw attack. The amount of shield pressure along with its combo ability are just amazing bonuses for this move. Especially the shield depletio, since it puts more pressure on the opponent coupled with your camping game and opens up more potential damage. Along with all this, uair still seems to have some unexplored uses. Unexplored potential on an already amazing move?
NO-IDea's Input: Does 11% fresh when all hits connect, last hit having small horizontal knockback. Therefore, it's the penultimate combo move, almost always being able to chain into something else. If you connect with the last hit, you can nearly always chain a z-air if they're high up in the air (or force them to air dodge... I will re-address this again in a bit), chain a f-air at mid percents and even chain grabs at low percents.
What happens when you don't connect the last hit? If you're rising with the u-air, you may not have many options other than a footstool, which in itself isn't bad since you can reset spacing while the opponents readjust themselves. If you're at the same height, we've got n-air, z-air, and b-air, take your pick. If you're falling with u-air and don't connect, again all aerials come into play, predominantly n-air. Although if you auto-cancel it on the ground, we've then got d-smash, up+b, f-tilt, etc. At higher percents and correct spacing, you can true combo falling u-air->jab->f-smash because landing lag frames prevent them from shielding the f-smash.
There are advanced tactics with u-air as well. Going back onto u-air combos and connecting with the last hitbox, what if they air dodge? I pose this question because from here, Samus has a ton of bait and punish moves for the wary opponent that is scared of z-air. For example, off stage, how often have you chained u-air or z-air into a spike because your opponent air dodged too early out of prediction? Your answer should be "often enough to know it works!"
Experiment; try chaining charge shot to the last hit of u-air, even d-air while on stage. You can pivot grab off of falling u-air once you've conditioned your opponent to shield the up+b/d-smash/f-tilt etc. If you really want to be fancy, try u-air, bait their air dodge into dash attack (weak hit) into up+b. All you have to do is condition them to not double jump after u-air (because you can always follow-up with rising f-air by reaction) and then all the mind games from their limited air dodge come into play.
Other small notes: yes it is possible to SDI out of u-air since it is a multi-hit move, but then it all comes down to you knowing which aerial to follow up with or when to retreat. Also at higher percents, if u-air knocks them too far away, homing missiles are always a good follow-up option.
Finally, u-air's diagonal hitbox (somewhat disjointed at the tip) allows it to beat a multitude of d-airs in the cast. G&W is one if spaced correctly, as well as Lucario, Toon Link, even ICs if horizontal enough! U-air's hitbox also does a decent job of covering her mid section, allowing FF u-air to be a tool for gimping. Invincible rising/falling u-airs are always fun to do
RaigothDagon's Input: A big downfall seeming to be overlooked here, it sucks against tinies. They will never get hit by this move unless they are in the air. A big advantage to this move is how it is lagless upon landing, and being small pretty much nullifies one of it's greatest advantages.[/QUOTE]
LanceStern's Input:
- It's great for poking the opponent from under the stage (either places like Lylat or Delfino) or poking under the ledge (either wall jumping BF or just ledge dropping and jumping to uair).
- Uair WRECKS big characters, especially fat characters
- The way Uair combos into other moves if you don't land the last hit is insane. I personally like a ff uair to jab to anything else.
- FF uair -> screw attack for shield pokes.
- And lets not forget to mention we use it for momentum cancelling purposes...
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: A Tier
NO-IDea thinks: S Tier
LanceStern thinks: S Tier
RaigothDagon thinks: A Tier
-Cross- thinks: S Tier
Mr9 thinks: S Tier
Overall Conclusion: S Tier (Her first move up there, congrats Samus, you ain't completely worthless <3)
Pros:
*Good Spacing tool
*Multihit
*Does nice damage if all hits connect
*Combos well
Cons:
*Can be easily SDI'ed out of
*Ending lag is punishable
-Cross-'s Input: Fair is a good anti-air option, if you read an opponent correctly, Full hop fair is better than SH fair as anti-air. What's nice about FH fair is if you hit an opponent with it, you can shoot a homing missile or zair while falling down and immediately cancel it for another followup and thus more pressure.
The downfall of this move is not simply the fact that it can be SDI'd out of, but that it can be SDI'd rather easily. Some moves are difficult to SDI out of, but fair isn't the hardest thing for an opponent to DI out of. Of course this is dependent on character size, but combined with the ending frames for this move, its also simple for an opponent to punish her.
Aside from this fact, fair is nice for maintaining walls (FH and FF fair at the peak of your jump to see how nice of a wall that looks like) and if you land one of the hits that have little knockback at higher %'s you can combo into dtilt/ or my personal favorite tilted ftilt and your other quick options. Also using this to recover from the edge is nice, but it is much safer to ledge drop and second jump fair then start moving back as the fair hitboxes progress for a good gtfo from the edge tactic. Also use this in conjunction with uair platform pressure.
RaigothDagon's Input: If an opponent is on a platform and you hit them with part of fair, the hitstun lasts long enough and pops them up enough that you can combo into other attacks like upair or upb. I'd have to test this out, but it may be guaranteed if you hit them while doing this. It could also be character/stage dependent, but I know I have chained these attacks quite a bit of the time.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: Low B Tier
-Cross- thinks: Low B Tier
Overall Conclusion: Low B Tier. Below Forward Smash
Discussion - (10/2/2010) - (13/2/2010)
Downward Aerial
Pros:
*Does 14% fresh
*Combos well
*Great gimping tool
*Tech chases well
Cons:
*Startup lag
*Predictable from a Samus player
*Loses its combo abilities at higher percentages
DelxDoom's Input: Dair is a good move. To be a good Samus player, you must start by being familiar with what you can do with the dair. What's cool about this move is that if it connects on grounded opponents it has a little bit more hitstun than normal moves (including upon having upwards knockback, not just the grounded spinny animation). This allows for a few limited "true combos". Up B is probably the easiest, but you can do a fully charged shot at some percentages and random crap. It's especially nice because of the low landing lag, a lot less than a WHOLE LOT of the cast's dairs
-Cross-'s Input: Always look for ways to set up a dair spike. It is the quickest way to kill for Samus. Without she would be absolutely screwed when it comes to killing because she would never kill below 100% . Personally I find SH homing missile to run off stage homing missile to be a good option. You have enough time to double jump and spike if the second homing missile lands. Actually this is crazy, there are too many situational setups to get a favorable position for dair'ing, that and conditioning helps this a lot. Just remember your goal is to either bait a punishable air dodge, or make an opponent waste or hit them out of their second jump. Charge shot (charged or uncharged), both types of missile cancels, and zairs are the most common ways to set that up (not limited to these moves though)
RaigothDagon's Input: This is her EARILIEST kill move indeed, because if you have someone idiotic enough to land it on while they are offstage, it kills at ridiculously low percentages. If you play smart and always keep the opponent guessing, you could get this kill move on them. Or you could play wifail and land it nearly all the time. Definitely one of the moves that Samus players will want to get the spacing right on. I left dair for fair because of it being less punishable, but I see that both are useful, and dair pays off more. Surely a good move for combo setups. As was mentioned, dair -> upb, another popular one that pretty much everyone uses is on a grounded dair -> bair. Great kill setup, but only if the dair doesn't pop them too high or they airdodge because everyone overuses it... I seem to recall a certain aerial that chains from dair as well. Maybe uair or fair? Maybe even another dair. I think that one is possible on certain characters at around 30%. Could be thinking of Melee or N64 Samus though. Another great low percentage link is dair -> utilt. One of the few ways I can actually pull that move out (other than using near the ledge or under platforms). Another great thing is if the opponent isn't popped up enough to do an action but doesn't have enough stun. This could lead to great tech chasing. If they didn't tech, you could always stand around and wait to punish them with a grab. Here's something that hasn't been brought up. Jab locks anyone? An unteched dair = possibility for a jab lock. A great setup for it that I've seen is super missle -> dair -> jab lock. Or at low enough percentages that it pops them up only slightly and they don't tech, you can jab lock after that. Of course this is all much harder in application, but if you can pull it off consistently in matches then good for you. Overall, this is a very sexy move that Samus has in her arsenal. Getting to use it in a match, that is the hard part. Unless you can figure out how to properly space this move, you will get punished everytime. This move is soooo easy to see coming, most opponents will be able to react as soon as you start it. Certain small characters can punish you for using this move even if it is properly spaced, so be careful who you try it against. I know the small characters are when this move is attempted the most.
Karcist's Input: One of my favorite things about this is to dair on stage and forward smash. This allows for early kills besides the spike. Morph ball bombs and missiles can lead into spikes easily as well if you take advantage of the hitstun right. I wouldn't say this is her best kill MOVE but one of her best SETUPS.
KillerJawz's input: Dair as said many times before, can get Samus the low percent kills she DESPERATLY needs, BUT, you must note however, that although set ups for this can be gorgeous, this move does not come out as quick, and is definatly one her slower aerials. It does a lovely 14% fresh and can actually KO opponents ONSTAGE due to a stage well spike if you want to call it that, normally killing around the 160% mark, which for Samus, although is a bit high, is VERY unexpected. A nice little plus to this move, is the fall speed Samus has. It's both a gift and curse to be floaty, but normally when characers do their dairs, they hit the floor, with Samus, she can do a dair, and come down slow enough to tech chase another dair, and that's where my next point comes in, Tech Chasing with dair. When Samus successfully knocks an opponent to the floor, she can rapidly chase their tech with another dair for some serious damage. I personally landed four dairs in a row due to this, and got myself a beautiful 40%+
Conclusion:
KillerJawz: Low B Tier
Karcist thinks: A Tier, Below Charge Shot
RaigothDagon thinks: B Tier
-Cross- thinks: A Tier
Overall Conclusion: Top of B Tier.
Pros:
*Combos EXTREMELY well
*Never stales
*Has two hitboxes
*Good gimping tool
*Very safe move
*Very very long
*Tether recovery
*Insanely good priority
*Tip is capable of KOing
*Spacing tool
Cons:
*Ruined by breakable scenery (Castle Siege's Statues)
*Does not refresh other moves
*Does 4% [7% Tipper]
Muz's Input: Here are some other useful tips for zair
# -Airdodge an attack into a zair to counter is so key, especially against other projectiles, but also works well against melee attacks. Learning to do this against Falco's laser makes the match somewhat bearable.
# -When recovering, this same idea works, airdodge a gimp attempt, then zair quickly to the ledge to turn the gimping around.
# -zair when you are hit by moves that hit you horizontally is sweet, as you can often hit the person before their move finished. This is great against forward/down throws usually. Here it is important to practice zairing with Airdodge->Zair because sometimes if you just hit Z, then you'll airdodge only, which is pretty annoying.
# -short hop into an immediate zair works great against olimar, mario, pikachu, peach, toon link and link, who like to jump and shoot projectiles. It'll destroy the projectile and also hit them, forcing them to change their approach
# -zair is great at poking shields, especially on large characters. If you can get a person to shield a smash missile, then zairing their head even when they shield is almost gauranteed.
# -Also on large characters (rob, snake, ddd, ganon, samus etc) you can do a rising short hop zair and hit them while they are still on the ground, especially if they just finished certain attacks which make their hurtboxes larger.
# -Retethering. Basically after you grab the ledge, press back, then z twice to quickly regrab it and refresh invincibility. This is so important for gimping, and if timed right, you can even retether in the middle of multihit moves like link's upB
# -zair is great for gimping recovering opponents, and with the tip can kill them directly if they are far enough out.
# -Reverse shot hop zair to quickly grab the ledge, faster than speed hugging.
# -full hop to ff zair works surpringly well, as opponents think they can dash under you, but the ff speed will catch them off gaurd. for added security, di away while you ff.
# -Zair are a great mixup in full hop double missles, for the same reason, people think they can run under both missles, but mixing a zair will catch them.
# -charge shot cancel into zair is awesome. While you are charging, must opponents will try to jump at you. But you can cancel the charge with shield, immediately jump and zair and hit them quick.
# -zair is awesome when people try to counterpick stages like luigi's mansion, brinstar, and castle seige, because they think they can avoid your projectiles behind the pillars. well they are in for a big surprise, heh
# -One mindgame i like to throw out occasionally is that I'll run at an opponent, quickly turn around a jump, still moving towards them, airdodge through their grab attempt, then zair the back of their head.
# -falling zair into a quick short hop rising zair combo's well against peach especially, who likes to float after the first zair. Also works against people who DI up alot.
# -Against characters that can reflect projectiles, shoot a seeking missle, and as they reflect it, zair the missle and them together. That always makes me smile
*Some things to be careful about*
>One thing that Raigoth mentioned that I think deserves to be mentioned again is that you shouldn't overuse zair. Especially if a person is on a platform, alot of times an F-air/Up-Air is a better option simply because they do more damage, but also because you can juggle.
>Also mix up uncharged shots with zairs when a person is returning to throw off their airdodging, plus it has less lag.
>Oh and be careful when mashing z to get out of grabs that can kill, because it may cause you to zair upon release, extending your hurtbox, and causing you to die faster.
RaigothDagon's Input: Zair is the only aerial that anyone should even have considered S tier. This move alone could be S tier material among all characters. If there were any reason why it wouldn't be considered for S tier overall would be because it does 4% damage and doesn't deteriorate or refresh. This is of course under the assumption that you don't tip doing 7% with it.
This move is one of her best combo starters. Coming back to how it never deteriorates or refreshes, if you don't tip with it, knockback will be nearly the same at all percentages. That means a combo/chain that worked against a certain player/character will work at nearly all percentages. This is a move that allows a whole lot of creativity for Samus players, because just about anything can come out of this move when it is canceled on the ground. In fact, this move usually chains into itself in the air because the hitstun changes depending on if the opponent did something in between or not. Almost like a counter hit.
Some of the combos/chains I've seen are zair -> grab, uair -> zair, zair -> utilt, zair -> dtilt, zair -> ftilt, dthrow -> zair. It is a great damage racker and generally makes it safer to use other moves. It is also one of her kill moves. The tip of zair can kill MK at about 170% depending on what part of the stage you are on.
This is Samus' safest move. It has so much distance on other characters, it is ridiculous. It has so much priority, I don't think I have ever seen this move canceled out. I have only seen it interrupted. It makes such a good counter move, a move followup, combo starter, the versatility of this move is amazing. If it's usefulness for combat weren't enough, it also has awesome range for recovery as a tether.
Tether recoveries are amazingly safe too. While you can be hit out of a tether recovery before you snap to the ledge, once you grab the ledge you may do anything you want with zero lag. While invincibility doesn't last near as long, the usefulness of being able to do anything you want the instant you latch on is immeasurable. Recently discussed was the tether cancel, and such things as taking advantage of those invincibility frames to do other moves. Such things make Samus a beast on the ledge, and possibly is where Samus will progress in the future.
Gimping. This move is great off the stage, and because of Samus' great recovery, it allows her to punish characters that generally will go unpunished offstage. Adding in a great priority, this move is pretty unbeatable offstage. Pretty much the only option an enemy has offstage against Samus is to airdodge and come in at a safe angle. Most players get into the habit of DIing up because Samus has too many options to stop them from coming in below.
-Cross-'s Input: There is too much to talk about when you talk about zair. Well basics, 7% tip, 4% everywhere else. Does NOT STALE so it will always do the same damage. Amazing range, although there are blind spots in there. Can be used out of air dodge which is a very nice ability, and allows for some immediate counterattacking abilities. Possibly the best tether grab range (not sure on this one, so somebody else confirm). Autocancels upon landing, so you have will always have 2 or 4 frames of landing lag (soft or hard landing), making it your best aerial if zair is considered as such.
This move combos into dash attack or dash grab (also jab and ftilt) at low %'s depending on where in your zair the opponent got hit. At higher %'s you could combo into charge shot or another zair. The long range zair is obviously used to keep your opponents out. Mixed with your camping game, you have the ability to cover and control an obscene amount of ground with this move. Abuse it. There is no way an opponent can punish this (Perfect Shield or not) if they are at a mid-long distance range. Now spamming it without reason will not get you wins, but just remember that this is the bread and butter of your camping game along with missiles.
SH immediate zair can be used to shut down opponents who have a tendency to try and jump over your projectiles, only use this when you anticipate the jump, because the opponent can just run up and punish you since Samus fall speed is slow. Otherwise you will mostly use zair as you are falling seeing as it is a lot safer because you will autocancel. SHFF zair is also possible, and it adds speed to your Samus. But it covers only mid range, and should be used to catch on coming opponents off guard, because they expect you to slow fall zair. There is also FH double zair, which can counter high up opponents, and usually you can catch them with the second zair if they don't have more than 2 jumps, even if you don't you are put into an advantageous position if they wasted their jump to get out.
You really can not go wrong with zair, just do not use it thoughtlessly.
I really do not know what tier to give this move
/sarcasm
Edit: Btw I was still writing my post when Raigoth posted, so if I repeated info sorry.
Anyway something in Raigoth's post:
The knockback tidbit is false. Knockback is not nearly the same at all %'s just because it does not stale/refresh. Not staling only means that the knockback will always increase at a consistent rate. So if you discover a combo, let's say zair>fully charged f-smash (this is fake btw) and it works at 90%. Then this combo will be guaranteed at 90% but not necessarily at higher or lower %'s. Just keep that in mind.
Also despite zair's priority it can not beat out MK's nado head on. You can if you get the zair to travel above the hitboxes on the side and get the tip to hit MK in the middle, which is ridiculously difficult. I do not know what other moves can beat zair out, but usually zair will win. And something I forgot to mention, this move can be used to cancel out most projectiles (expect translucent ones) which can shut down a lot of campers.
Conclusion:
Everyone thinks / knows: S Tier
Overall Conclusion: S Tier
Important Notice(s):
*Just note that we will be coming back to discussions after a complete cycle, you don't need to add on any more information at the moment.
Introduction
Welcome to a brand new thread, spawned from an idea the peach boards, and a few other boards have come up with over the past few months. Basically, in this thread, obviously our discussion will revolve around Samus, but instead of examining her as a character, we want to get right down to the specifics of her moves. This idea sounds familiar and has been done, but not in the format I wish to place this in.
I would like this 'list' to consist of every single move Samus has, im not talking about combos, im talking about the moves in general. What moves beat those feared moves that we all cry upon seeing (MK's Nado, Marth's UpB), how can we use our moves in a way that being punished is unlikely?
I wish to place these moves into a 'tier list' of sorts and help out players who are struggling with certain situations. For example, your being pressured by Marth's fairs, what move can you instantly pull out to counter it? The better and less punishable these moves are, the higher on the list they go and so on. It's not just about what counters what however, it's also about the general aspects of moves. What is good for KOing?, what's good for spacing? Consider all of these questions, but we are basically looking at what moves do their specified job best, in order to rank them
For the first few days, we can discuss a move, after a few days of the discussion have passed AND we have enough information to help out other players, we can start a new move and redo the cycle (I already know SOME of her moves have been discussed already, however, the data can be far easier to access here)
TL;DR version: Making tier list for Samus' moveset, contribute please <3.
Below is the key for understanding the colour definitions used in this thread:
Green = We have finished this discussion
Yellow = We are currently on this discussion
Red = We have come back to this discussion
Cyan = Title or heading
Plum = Important Link
Changes to the thread:
*The color Cyan was added to the key
*Charge Shot information has been added
*Why does Samus even have this move? (F) tier has been renamed to Bottom Tier (F), Bottom Tier (E) has been renamed to Terrible (E) Tier
*New color Plum for important links
*Added a Important Notice section
*Updated Important Notice section
Move Tier List
God (S) Tier
Z Aerial
Upward Aerial
Upward Aerial
Top (A) Tier
Charge Shot
High (B) Tier
Downward Aerial
Down Tilt
Homing & Super Missles
Forward Tilt
Screw Attack
Forward Smash
Forward Aerial
Back Aerial
Down Tilt
Homing & Super Missles
Forward Tilt
Screw Attack
Forward Smash
Forward Aerial
Back Aerial
Mid (C) Tier
Up Tilt
Forward Throw
Back Throw
Jabs
Down Throw
Down Smash
Neutral Aerial
Forward Throw
Back Throw
Jabs
Down Throw
Down Smash
Neutral Aerial
Low (D) Tier
Up Throw
Terrible (E) Tier
Morph Bombs
Up Smash
Up Smash
Bottom (F) Tier
Discussion - (25/11/09) - (27/11/09)
Charge Shot
Pros:
*Good for camping
*Good KO move for Samus
*Ranged projectile
*Can be charged up and released before maximum charge.
*Does 26% damage (highest amount of ANY projectile in the game excluding Peach's 'corrupt' turnip)
*Messes up characters with bad recoverys at low %s.
*At a high charge, it has very good priority.
Cons:
*Some starting/ending lag
*Projectile is quite slow
*The move will decay REGARDLESS of the charge power
*Will dissapear if it travels to far
*Cannot be charged in mid air
*Pushes user back when shot in mid air (push back is dependent on charge power)
*Can be absorbed by energy absorbing moves (Ness + Lucas' down b, Game & Watch's down b), reflected (Fox, Falco, Wolf, Zelda, Mario's reflectors/cape) and countered (Ike, Marth)
KillerJawz's input:
Charge Shot can be used in a flury of missles and zair for a complete mindgame, it's awesome, so camping with it is brilliant, and it can give you a bit of breathing space if your feeling the pressure, I find a nice ledge hopped CS works wonders on the likes of MK.
CS is a decent gimp along with your options. When I run off stage and CS, its so far from me that I take literally no risk apart from that push back the Samus user has (in the opposite direction of where you shot the CS) when it is launched aerially, but even then, you shouldn't be troubled by it to much, just make sure you will be in a position afterwards where recovery is literally guaranteed.
LanceStern's input:
It definitely has great mind game potential with the Charge cancel. Opponents are often quick to approach me when I'm charging.
It's definitely great after knocking them on the floor too. If they try to tech roll or get-up roll it often times hits them anyways. We pretty much shoot it from a far/mid range distance away, so it's very hard to punish the move.
tha_carter's input:
One thing thats not discussed often is charge shot intimidation. Having that little sparkling light beside your cannon changes peoples view on samus. They airdodge ALOT more, and basically live in defense.
Another thing worth noting is it can out prioritize alot of other projectiles. So sometimes it can be used defensively. To eat through your oppents projectiles and hit them WHILE still protecting you.
NO-IDea's input:
Charge Shot is an actual camping mechanism for Samus.
Thus, to reiterate, Charge Shot is truly reserved for camping only. From Charge Shot, we commit time in investing damage into an attack while reacting accordingly to our opponent. The charge cancel into shield is where this special really shines.
This is all available to us while charging a projectile that does 26% fresh. The more options Samus has, the better. In other words, if you're far away from your opponent, you can effectively camp, invest, and have as many defensive routes as every character in the game. The frames to cancel aren't as much as Sheik's needles or Mario's FLUDD, so in comparison, Charge Shot truly is better both in damage output, knockback and options.
Unfortunately, the move did receive a nerf, so to use it as a kill option has to be decided early. If you want to use it as a kill option, perhaps a camping Samus is not your forte. Samus isn't good at refreshing her moves in general (z-air doesnt' refresh and she doesn't pummel as much as other characters because of her lack-luster grab.) If you want to use charge shot as a damage racker, then the full potential of this move is available to you.
They may not expect a half-charged shot. Short hopping the half-charged can also shield poke. I wouldn't recommend this if you plan on using the Charge Shot as a kill option.
Conclusion
NO-IDea thinks: A Tier
LanceStern thinks: A Tier
KillerJawz thinks: A Tier
Overall conclusion: A Tier
Discussion - (28/11/09) - (2/12/09)
Power & Homing Missles
Pros:
*Two different missles, each with different qualities
*Ability to home in on opponents
*Refresh other moves easily
*Can stop approaches
*Lead into 'combos'
*Lag of the missles can be cancelled
Cons:
*Not much knockback from either missle
*Easily reflected
*Easily punished close up
NO-IDea's Input: If I were to rank the two together, it would automatically be S rank. The utility of the move is incredible and your ability to use missiles will make or break your game.
I would also have to consider missiles as an approach option more than anything. The ability to camp with missiles is nullified both by it's ending lag and the opponent's ability to perfect shield. Furthermore, it's not necessarily the best option to use defensively compared to other tools such as z-air, b-air and up+b which can be used as spacing punishers.
This brings in missile canceling, which every Samus main should be able to do proficiently after the first week of picking her up. Missiles, unlike say Falco's lasers, have decent range WHILE being slow enough to follow up on. Both projectiles force a response, but missiles give Samus the ability to predict and even react accordingly to any option the opponent makes. It's her turnip or her bananas. Yes, it's viable to play with light use missiles or without them at all, but you'd be severely handicapping yourself.
Use missiles to bait air dodges into u-tilt. Use missiles to bait a shield which can turn into a grab. Use missiles as an anti-camping deterrent and force them to approach. You can even use missiles as a potential kill set-up, chaining the likes of f-smash, d-tilt and charge shot.
Mr.9's Input: Now I will say they are great combined, mixing both missiles together is very tasty, and even more delicious when mixed with CS.
Throwback's Input: Short Hopped Missle Cancel (regular) -> dtilt is super awesome
Smash missiles from the ledge hurt shields.
Nexus Bond's Input: Regular missiles do 5% damage and have very little knockback and Super Missiles do 10% damage with some knockback at higher percentages, and the ability to knock down the opponent at mid-percents (unless they tech, obviously).
Regular missiles home in and travel slowly. Super Missiles travel in a straight line and accelerate. Also, a Super Missile reflected travels EXTREMELY fast back to you, so be careful if you happen to be fighting people with reflectors.
Conclusion
NO-IDea thinks: Homing Missles A, Super Missles A.
Nexus Bond thinks: Homing Missles B, Super Missles C.
KillerJawz thinks: Homing Missles B, Super Missles C.
Mr 9 thinks: Homing Missles A, Super Missles B.
Throwback thinks: Homing Missles B, Super Missles B.
Overall Conclusion: Homing Missles B, Super Missles B.
Discussion - (4/12/09) - (7/12/09)
Screw Attack
Screw Attack
Pros:
*Destroys shields
*Has a very large hitbox, both startup and aerialborne
*Multihits
*Good OoS option
*Good recovery range
Cons:
*Can be SDIed out of
*Left aerial and useless after attack is done
IsmaR's Input: It is god tier on Brinstar. Just saying.
It's very useful for following up other moves(aerial U-air/SHFF U-air on grounded enemies, D-air on the ground, dash attack, etc.) and the aerial version is great for eating shields, refreshing other moves quickly, and escaping certain moves, like Snake's N-air. The only real drawback is if the opponent manages to shield it or SDI out of it and punish the end lag.
Throwback's Input: It has 0 invincibility frames.
NO-IDea's Input: Up+b becomes a great OoS punisher. You can also move left/right while in animation to prepare your landing/mess up opponent's SDI attempts.
With all this said and done, this move doesn't benefit Samus's worst MUs (MK, Olimar, D3 IMO.) Meanwhile, they strengthen her more favorable MUs, which is nice, but because of their usual large size, another move could have been more appropriate too. For example, Samus could easily u-smash or grab OoS rather than up+b on large characters. The punishment is practically the same if you whiffed with any of those moves, but grab/u-smash has more potential to follow-up on.
If I were to judge this move, it'd be less on the fact that it's a great situational move and more on the basis that its utility is lack-luster if you play someone who's proficient at SDI.
LanceStern's Input: Use Up B under MK to reak havoc on him.
On Battlefield you can punish techs, rolls, and ANYTIME they are above you it's abusable. Anywhere else (except maybe Brinstar and some extent Delfino) it's dangerous to use besides a surprise attack or OOS.
Darkshadow7827's Input: I use it to punish aerial approaches. It's excellent for stages with platforms. Good damage racker. After the move, you are left helpless. It can be SDIed out of. I think it's a bit situational and can't be spammed. more often than not, opponents won't SDI out of it. But when whiffed, the consequences (dmg, especially with samus' lack of killing power and lack of effective momentum cancel) are brutal. I think on average, it's somewhat reliable.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: B Tier
IsmaR thinks: B Tier
NO-IDea thinks: C Tier
LanceStern thinks: B Tier
Throwback thinks: C Tier
Mr9 thinks: B Tier
Darkshadow7827 thinks: B Tier
Overal conclusion: B Tier
Discussion - (10/12/09) - ( 13/12/09)
Morph Bombs
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221076&highlight=morph+ball+bombs - Very important link about morph bombs, extensive discussion, please give it a read.
Pros:
*More recovery
*Air stalling
*Nice hitbox range
Cons:
*Don't explode on contact
*Poor Knockback
*Alot of startup and ending lag
KillerJawz's Input: They come out quite slowly and don't explode straight away. They can be used on ledges to fall down on recovering opponents so they are very good for setting up gimps. The ending lag on bombs is punishable however, so they cannot be used close up, or frequently. They can also be used to recover from distances or stall until the opponents invincibility frames run out on a ledge, giving us time to recover.
DarkShadow's Input: A bomb can lead into setups if it hits. Bombs have incredible lag even if you hold down on stage, bombs don't do enough damage to justify the risk of using them.
IsmaR's Input: They're good for breaking out of certain moves((IC's especially)CGs, MK's nado, tech chasing with Snake/Ganon, etc.). Throw them in for erratically moving around, throw off your opponents, and frustrate them with spacing. I'd say D-tier.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: D Tier
IsmaR thinks: D Tier
LanceStern thinks: E Tier
Mr9 thinks: E Tier
Darkshadow thinks: E Tier
Overall conclusion: E Tier
Discussion - (14/12/09) - ( 17/12/09)
Up Tilt
Up Tilt
Pros:
*Massive range above and infront of Samus
*Good KO move
*Good Edgeguarder
*Punishes airdodges
*Has different knockback angles
Cons:
*Noticable ending lag and startup lag
*One angle has terrible knockback
Karcist's Input: It's great for hitting people that are standing on platforms above you. Most people expect a screw attack so this can throw people off a little bit.
LanceStern's Input: Utilt is also useful for anti-air attacks when the opponent is in front of you. It actually has decent priority and the hitbox is strange.
Mr: 9's Input:
the knock back angle changes depending on if the opponent is in the air or on the ground[/QUOTE]
KillerJawz's Input:
It has some startup and ending lag, but nothing TO signficant. The move has ENORMOUS range, especially for a tilt, and it can eat air dodges towards the ground very well, aswell as spot dodges, but it can be punished if it misses. It's one of Samus best edgeguarding tilts, and for Samus, can KO relativly well, especially at the edge. If the opponent is hit just as the move starts, they will be sent in a diagonal path away from Samus, if they are hit as the move is coming down, they are sent directly fowards, if they are hit with the slam of the foot they are sent upwards, the final angle of the move has the least knockback.
Conclusion:
Karcist thinks: D Tier
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier
Mr. 9 thinks: C Tier
LanceStern thinks: C Tier
Overall Conclusion: C Tier
Discussion - (18/12/09) - (20/12/09) ------ (26/02/2010) - (1/03/2010)
Forward Tilt
Pros:
*Good range
*Very fast
*Little ending lag
*Punishes rolls and spotdodges
Cons:
*At lower percentages, it has extremely poor knockback
KillerJawz's Input: Forward tilt is an interesting and definatly useful move. The speed in which this move comes out is very nice and it has literally very little lag, so you can use for a safe GTFO move to compose yourself. The move's knockback concerns me though, at lower percentages, it's not good for getting a person away from you, it's better to annoy them, like Falco's lazers do and rack up the damage.
Muz's Input: +Angling the ftilt up OR down adds 3 percent to the damage (doing 10% instead of 7%).
+Although the regular ftilt is terrible at low percents (if you hit the opponent they can hit you back during your lag animation), BUT you can avoid this retaliation by either spacing yourself properly or by angling the attack as it will push them further away and with more stun.
+Ftilt works great against certain projectiles with little hit stun like falco's lasers, because you can take the hit then immediately ftilt retaliate before he finishes the attack animation. This is useful if you screw up a normal powershield approach.
+Angling the ftilt down can hit people who are holding the edge too long, sending them away at a much better angle than hitting them with dtilt or dsmash, and sets them up for some gimping.
+Angling the ftilt up can beat MK's tornado if timed properly.
+ftilt works well against people getting up from the edge because of its range and low cooldown. If they roll instead, you can usually follow with a downsmash to get them. And if they jump, do an upair/upB afterwards.
+You can "combo" an ftilt from many moves samus has (jab, fair, upair, dair, zair, dash attack, missile, bomb).
+If you bair someone's shield with the maximum distance possible, you can get a free ftilt when they whiff their grab attempt or when they drop their shield.
-Characters with long grab ranges (link, TL, olimar) can shield grab the ftilt even if you spaced it maximally.
-The unangled ftilt will sometimes completely miss characters near you if they are ducking (like kirby) or during certain parts of their attack animations which puts them low to the ground (like zelda's b-air)
-Its often easy for a good opponent to see a ftilt coming, and they will roll towards you and punish the lag, so you need to make sure you're not predictable.
Ismar's Input: It's really good for punishing rolls and spotdodges, and has pretty good range overall. It can also set up some situational strings,
No one ever really expects it. That makes it good for mindgames, especially when you angle it up on people above you/on platforms.
LanceStern's Input: Ftilt is a great move. I mentioned it before but it's probably one of the safest moves for us to space and punish with because
a) It has a the biggest horizontal range of any of her ground moves and comes out fast.
b) It has the least amount of cooldown after it comes out.
Because it reaches so far you can punish a good deal of moves and it resets your spacing. i like to use it to poke at people as well (kind of like Dedede's ftilt).
Then there's the option to tilt the ftilts. We learned a good amount of months ago that ftilt tilted down has a disjointed hitbox (extends her torso and shoulders a little upwards) so you can combo out of a ff uair. Ftilt tilted down also knocks the opponent off stage at an uncomfortable angle for them. You just trade a little range.
Tilting ftilt up is one of my favorites. It is EXCELLENT for anti-air tactics and keeping your opponents sh-aerials out of your face. I use it a lot against ness, lucas, even marth. You hit them once or twice with the move and they rethink coming in reckless. I love to combo ftilt after jab cancelling. Don't tilt it up on short people if they are on the ground, but if you predict they will sh aerial, they are finished.
PROS Summary:
Fftilt(neutral) - Most horizontal range of any samus ground move. Great spacing tool and cools down quickly. It's the safest drop-your-shield and punish move Samus has.
Ftilt (up) - Amazing anti air attack, especially if you predict their sh-aerials. Better to punish than utilt if you're not trying to KO them.
CONS: Only con I can think of is it has very low (to no) shield stun, and at low percents it has low hitback; That means if you space it wrong on shield or at low percents you will be punished by characters with faster/greater range than you, but not much.
Compared to her other moves, I would say it's an B+ to A move. Samus mains if on the ground should be using it... but we mostly spend our time short hopping.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: B tier
IsmaR thinks: B tier
Mr9 thinks: C/B tier
Karcist thinks: A Tier
LanceStern thinks: High B Tier
Muz thinks: B Tier
Overall Conclusion: B Tier, Below Missles.
Discussion - (21/12/09) - (23/12/09)
Down Tilt
IsmaR's Input:Down Tilt
Start with using it as a follow-up move. Bomb > D-tilt, FF F-air > D-tilt, and jab > D-tilt at low % all work fairly well. D-tilt in itself isn't a very good KO move, but it isn't below average. Fresh ones can take out enemies, while overused ones act as a gtfo move. Whilst F-smash is a better KO move, I find it harder to land in most cases.
Using D-tilt on low ceiling stages depend on who works better on the stage. CPs consist of Brinstar, Halberd, and Battlefield. Obviously Snake is good on Halberd, several characters are good on BF, and Meta Knight and Wario work well on Brinstar. It boils down to your playstyle in the end. If you can learn to balance out your D-tilt with your other KO and damage-racking moves, you should be good to go in situations that demand D-tilt.
It's good for edgeguarding. Just as an example, I've played a Lucario who ***** me everywhere but the ledge. I ended up winning by Z-airing every attempt to recover over the stage, then catching him with D-tilt as he went for the ledge. It is also a very good move on stages characters can rise from, like Delfino, Halberd, Brinstar and pretty much any stage with platforms. The range is fairly good and most people won't suspect it unless you start spamming it.
RaigothDagon's Input:
Saving dtilt as a kill move vs characters that cant kill early on low ceilings. Usually smaller characters dont have good vertical kill moves and are easier to kill upwards anyway.
I seriously recommend using dtilt a lot in these matchups because it has deceiving range and can rack up damage quickly. What makes the hitbox more deceiving, especially against people who camp ledges, is when you learn to walk with dtilt resulting in a sliding dtilt.
I save my dtilt as a kill move, but it is the easiest of her moves to DI in order to live longer.
It is fast, start up is very close to her jab speed. The cool down lag of this move is terrible. The range of this move is very good though, if I recall right it reaches as far as ftilt does and keeps your hurtbox way out of the way. It is one of her best edge guarding moves (grounded) if you know how to space well. Timing it correctly coupled with walking towards an opponent to bait an edge attack is awesome.
It has good priority, and does a pretty sizable amount of damage. The main drawback that I cant emphasize enough is if it gets shielded. It is one of her more punishable moves.
mountain_tiger's Input: DTilt is good, but it has its problems. It's very fast in start-up considering that it kills at around 120-130%, but its cooldown sucks ***. If I recall correctly, cooldown is almost 40 frames, which means that it would be super punishable if they shield it. Its range is OK horizontally, but it only hits on the ground, which can make it hard to kill with since at higher percents they'll be expecting it and stay out of its range.
DTilt is probably her most reliable kill move (either that or FSmash), and as such is worth using, but you have to make yourself unpredictable when you use it, since everyone expects it of you (a bit like Peach with her Fair).
Karcist's Input: I find the down tilt to be a decent KO move, or even as a damage move. One thing I do from time to time is throw out a jab then instead of using the second jab I down tilt. It tends to knock people back far inside their shield to keep her safe if something goes wrong (unless they powershield). While this isn't a great KO move, it's one of the best she's got so I'd say it's pretty useful
Dryn's Input: It takes a total of 6 or 7 frames, I believe, and it has excellent range. Compare Samus' d-tilt with Zelda's. Zelda cannot hit Samus with her d-tilt in a particular range, but within that same range, Samus can hit Zelda.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: High B tier
IsmaR thinks: Low A tier
Mr9 thinks: A tier
RaigothDagon thinks: Low B tier
Karcist thinks: A tier
mountain_tiger thinks: B tier
Overall Conclusion: B tier, above Missles.
Discussion - (28/12/09 - 30/12/09)
Jab (Including 2nd Jab)
Jab (Including 2nd Jab)
Pros:
*Very short start up and end lag
*Combos very well into other oves
*Refreshes moves very nicely
*Can be buffered
Cons:
*Lacks hitstun
*Lacks range
Dryn's Input: Samus' jab is 3 frames, and it does a total of 10% damage if fresh. That is 3% + (7%). The initial jab is perfect to poke at your opponent and then retreat. If the first hit lands, perhaps go for a d-tilt. Jab cancels are great, but watch out. Samus' jab lack hitstun, although it has great priority. Jab cancels are especially good if Samus is behind the opponent. The hitbox seems to be a bit large, because sometimes if Samus is facing away from her opponent, her opponent will still be hit. The second jab is somewhat useless, since the hitstun in the initial jab is lacking. If, however, your opponent is somewhat in the air, the second jab is guaranteed to land. It has a decent knockback, unlike the initial jab.
KillerJawz's Input: Samus' Jab is very interesting. You can buffer it to attack repeatedly simply by pressing down between each jab. You can buffer ALOT of moves out of a jab, dtilt is probably the most important. You can trick the opponent into thinking your going to use your 2nd jab, but instead give them a dtilt to the face. At lower percentages, the second jab knocks the opponent just far enough to combo into a charge shot very nicely, jabs are also a good gtfo move and good for refreshing other moves.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier (Together)
Mr9 thinks: C Tier
Overall conclusion: C Tier, below uptilt.
Discussion - (1/1/2010 - 3/1/2010)
Back Throw
Back Throw
Pros:
*Good GTFO move
*Has nice knockback
Cons:
*Can be punished if grab is missed
NO-IDea's Input: I tend to always chain this to pivot grabs for some reason. Mostly because more than likely the pivot grab catches them off guard and therefore their DI messes up. It's a decent throw for follow-ups, in some ways better than Samus's down throw. 7% is great damage for a throw that resets spacing and allows for a continuation with her long z-air and slow but deadly (in the forceful response kind of way) missiles.
KillerJawz's Input: Well, Back Throw is a move that most Samus mains tend to underrated, for her much favored down throw. Her back throw is a SUPERB gtfo move at higher %s and can really help us out if the opponent is thrown off stage so we can proceed to spam missles and force a gimp. It can KO at VERY high %s, so if your struggling to land the kill, a pivot to back throw could mix things up nicely. However, the risk of missing the grab is still a factor when judging throws, a misplaced pivot does not go unpunished by ANY character.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier
NO-IDea thinks: B Tier
Mr 9 thinks: D Tier
DarkShadow thinks: C Tier
Overall Conclusion: C Tier, Above Jabs, Below Up Tilt.
Discussion - (4/1/2010) - (7/1/2010)
Up Throw
Pros:
*Fixed knockback at lower percentages
*Good GTFO move
*Set's up jab locks
Cons:
*Has no follow ups (except on Battlefield where you can perform uairs to chain)
*Cannot KO
mountain_tiger's Input: Samus' UThrow is far from amazing, but it does have its uses. You can't properly follow-up with anything, but it puts your opponent directly above you, and in the vast majority of cases having your opponent above you is a favourable situation, since a number of characters have a limited number of option for defending themselves from below. Plus it does 9% damage, which isn't too bad.
quiKsilverItaly's Input: If the enemy is above you, you have always the better cards with samus (for example use the long grab, if he lands back on the ground).
But a special way for the Up-Throw i just know for battlefield: If the enemy has low damage (~20), do a Uthrow at the middle of the map, so the enemy probably will land on highest platform and if the enemy is over you on a platform do one or two uairs, they are broken!
KillerJawz's Input: The UThrow is often used for the wrong reasons, the main one being to rack up damage, use dthrow if your going to that, if follows nicely into other things. UThrow is a really nice GTFO move so during the time the opponent is away from you, simply charge your CS. Also on Luigi's Mansion if you use the throw on the lower floor, you can immediatly begin your jab lock. However, as I said before, the move has absolutly no follow ups, it's an empty throw, and it can't KO either.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: D Tier
mountain_tiger thinks: C Tier
Overall Conclusion: Top of D Tier.
Discussion - (8/1/2010) - (10/1/2010)
Forward Throw
Forward Throw
Pros:
*Nice knockback
*Plenty of follow ups
*Good damage racker
*Spacing tool
Cons:
*Punishable if grab is missed
*Very dependent on weight and percentage
Pick Random's Input: I can get heavies with a full charge shot right after it or use a small if they have little damage. Working the Fthrow in the game makes alot of good use. Great spacer if your following up with Zair or any missile. And of course if close to an edge, Fthrow and go for the quick spike.
KillerJawz's Input: Fthrow is one of my more frequently used throws, since it follows up into literally any sort of ranged or long range attack Samus has, and it's VERY difficult to avoid the follow ups, like zair or missle. It has some healthy knockback at higher percentages so it's much harder to punish if you space a zair wrong, or decide not to follow up. The main flaw this move has however is that it is highly dependent on the weight of your opponent, for a character like Jigglypuff, it is VERY hard to get a follow up.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier
Overall Conclusion: C Tier, below uptilt.
Discussion - (11/01/2010) - (13/01/2010)
Down Throw
Down Throw
Pros:
*Great for combos at lower percentages
*Forces the opponent to react (baiting purposes)
Cons:
*Loses its usefulness at higher percentages
*Only does 6%
*Opponent can airdodge away and reset spacing
LanceStern's Input: Dthrow, if read correctly, can be followed up with a jumping charge shot or grounded charge shot -> grab/dashh attack. I love it at low percents.
NO-IDea's Input: Does a lousy 6%. Fortunately, it's great at low percents. U-air is alright, but f-air is better to bait air dodges. Up+b is okay, but if you miss, easy punishment. If you're really confident, follow-up with n-air or a pivot grab, since both of those options lead into more combo strings. Another thing to note, it's important to learn to buffer. If you're too slow, they can double jump away.
A combo starter at best, it loses it's luster at higher percentages, not to mention it's very susceptible to DI. Should be replaced with u-throw starting around 30% if you really want to send them above you. If you try d-throw from here, they'll double jump and reset their horizontal spacing, and from there Samus's only legit option to follow-up on is z-air. The fact that they know it's your only, albeit safe, option means they'll just air dodge and touch the ground. You could missile cancel, but then, again, u-throw is better since it does exactly the same thing as d-throw at those percentages but better.
Xyro77's Input: Down throw is nice for setting up for combos(u-air/fair/up+b) if the foe fails to airdodge. if they do airdodge its still good because the d throw put them in the air but not super high to where they have to time airdodge and move around. In other words, you can still use fair/uair/up+b after u read thier air dodge.
Conclusion:
NO-IDea thinks: Low C, High D tier
LanceStern thinks: D tier
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier
Overall Conclusion: Low C Tier, below upthrow
Discussion - (14/1/2010) - (16/1/2010)
Up Smash
Up Smash
Pros:
*Has nice range
*Nice hitboxes
*CAN do 24% (Most likely never will)
Cons:
*Far to hard for the hits to connect
*Easily DI'ed out of
*Easily punished if missed
*Easily punished if it hits
*Ending and start up lag
NO-IDea's Input: Does 24% fresh. This move is very situational and therefore both undervalued and overestimated at the same time. Some of the obvious uses stated so far are heavies and large characters. They can of course SDI out and punish, b
It does have other uses though. It's great for platform pressure when players begin to expect u-air and u-tilt. If you charge it, their shield diminishes.
Another thing less commonly seen is smash canceling. That is, the shield knockback you get after smash attacking someone may cause you to fall off the platform/stage. U-smash seems to do this just as well as f-smash, leading into falling u-airs, which for Samus, any u-air leads to profit. On Lylat/BF, on those rare occasions both you and your opponent are on a platform, try it. You can even hyphen smash to position yourself to fall off. What are they going to do, shield it? Like you want them to? Bait and profit.
One thing I've personally found interest in is jump canceling u-smash. In other words, using it OoS without the 7 frame shield drop. I haven't found particular use for this yet, but I've seen legitimate uses of it with MKs and Wolfs.
Again, it's very situational and therefore overlooked in today's metagame.
KillerJawz's Input: Up Smash imo is a TERRIBLE move, it is incredibly awful. I tested this with a Bowser, and he was able to DI out of it at 0%, taking a mere 4% damage iirc, and was then able to punish me with a fffair. You can DI out of this move with so much ease that it's ridiculous. It will like NEVER get all hits on ANY character if they DI even slightly up. Granted all of its hits do over 20%+, but that will NEVER happen unless the opponent DIs down. This move also has startup and ending lag.
It does have some nice range, and if the opponent can't DI for ****, it can punish airdodges or laggy aerials. It gives a nice slide as a hyphen smash but that is honestly it's only benefit. IMHO use literally ANY other move in the game, I honestly believe her upsmash is her worst move.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: E Tier, High F
NO-IDea thinks: E Tier, High F
LanceStern thinks: D Tier, High E
Karcist thinks: F Tier
Overall Conclusion: Bottom of E Tier, Below Bombs
Discussion - (17/1/2010) - (19/1/2010)
Forward Smash
Forward Smash
Pros:
*Nice range
*Can be tilted up and down
*Lots of versatility
*Multipurpose move, can be used for killing or setting up gimps
*Comes out fast
*Good GTFO move
Cons:
*Phantom hit
*Tilted up misses smaller opponents occasionally
*Bit of ending lag
mountain_tiger's Input: FSmash is, IMO, easily in the top two of Samus' most reliable killing moves alongside DTilt. Its start-up is fast for a smash attack, at 10 frames, and the range is not too bad, so it isn't extremely hard to connect with. What's cool about is that unlike DTilt, you can angle it to allow more versatility and a higher chance of connecting with it. Angling it down can hit crouching opponents or act as an edgeguarding tool, while angling it up acts as an anti-air move. It's quite weak by smash attack standards, but it's one of Samus' most powerful moves in terms of knockback, especially if angled upwards. high B tier.
-Cross-'s Input: Definitely a kill move for Samus. I personally favor the down tilted version because of the lower angle knockback which sets up a better opportunity to gimp. But since it reduces range I usually just do the non-angled one.
KillerJawz's Input: Samus's Fsmash is a very interesting move that can be used for a VARIETY of things, ranging from killing, to setting up gimps. Her fsmash can be tilted either down or up, or left as it as. Tilting the fsmash upwards gives it 1% more damage (14%), and more knockback, making it one of her best kill moves, HOWEVER, this also limits your options against small characters, since it can oftenly miss them, it's better for tall characters. Normal fsmash is a great kill move for smalls, it will ALWAYS hit them, and is a great damage racker on heavies. Tilted down fsmash is the weakest of the three types, however, it is BY FAR the most useful for gimps. It can knock opponents into a position where you can missle/zair gimp pretty easily without any major risk.
My major concern with this move however, is the ending lag. Now granted, for a smash, it comes out quite quickly, but the ending lag on it is pretty bad, and if the move is not spaced correctly, can be punished SEVERLY. I tend to use fsmash when im SURE it will land, or I won't be punished. The move has nice range, but nothing over the top, there is no disjoint on this move.
My BIGGEST concern, and this is major, is the fact that the move will MISS some characters when they are behind the cannon of your gun, I don't know why this happens, but it will occasionally miss, so I honestly prefer down tilt over it.
Conclusion:
mountain_tiger thinks: Bottom B/ Top C
KillerJawz thinks: Bottom B
-Cross- thinks: Bottom B
Overall Conclusion: Lowest of B.
Discussion - (20/1/2010) - (22/1/2010)
Down Smash
Down Smash
Pros:
*Large range
*Two hitboxes
*Good shield pressure
*Does the highest damage out of all her smashes (Usmash is rubbish, it doesnt count
*Has a nice knockback angle to combo well
*Can cause semi frame traps
*Nice shield pushback
Cons:
*Lasts a long time
*Has punishable ending lag
*Cannot KO
IsmaR's Input: I particularly love using it on stages with bottom platforms that can be passed through, such as Halberd, Delfino, and Brinstar(doubles as useful there because it also helps break the platforms easier, since it's two hits and has decent range). It is considered one of those desperation killing moves, just slightly better than D-air on a grounded opponent and most dulled moves.
The back hit is, as pointed out already, very good for reading and punishing rolls, useful as a gtfo move, and can produce some mindgame stage spikes. Lastly, both hits are good for shield pressure. Everything else I wanted to cover was summed up in the last few posts.
KillerJawz's Input: This move has two hitboxes, each of them have their own percentages (14%-16% damage for front hit, depending where abouts on the leg you hit and 13%-14% for the backhit) The move has a SUPERB launch angle and can be great for setting up uair strings. At lower percentages, this move combos nicely after dair, giving you over 26% damage and is very hard to avoid. Fast falled uair to dsmash is VERY close to a frame trap since this particular smash is her FASTEST smash in terms of first hit (hits on frame 9) This move has nice range and provides ALOT of shield pushback/pressure on lighter characters shields.
This move does however have noticeable ending lag so it can be punished pretty easily if it's powershielded or it misses. The move cannot KO at reasonable percentages so it's strictly for racking up damage.
Conclusion
KillerJawz thinks: C Tier
IsmaR thinks: C Tier
Karcist thinks: Top of D Tier
Mr9 thinks: D Tier
Overall Conclusion: Bottom of C Tier.
Discussion - (23/1/2010) - (28/1/2010)
Neutral Aerial
Pros:
*Large hitbox
*Good gimping tool
*Lingering hitbox
*Comes out quickly
*Combos well
*Good option OoS
Cons:
*Poor knockback
*Poor damage
*Ending lag
NO-IDea's Input: It's one of the few moves where nearly her entire body is the hitbox. Does measly damage and knockback, but because it comes out fairly fast and chains to many aerials after a short hop, it's great to pull out as a surprise attack.
Uses? Comboing of course, as the strong hit of n-air at weak percents can lead to dash attacks and dash grabs. The weak hit at higher percents result in the same follow-ups. It's also decent combo breaker in certain MUs a decent mind game when getting juggled.*
*By mind game, I refer to the options characters have when put above their opponent. Samus in particular has double jump, air dodge, retreating z-air, bombs, and n-air. N-air should be least used since it's easily punished by shield dash approach or beat by disjointed hitboxes, but it still qualifies in those MUs (Marth and MK in particular.)*
OoS n-air is a good punisher, although it's absurdly hard to follow-up on. Invincible n-air is decent, although superseded by u-air/f-air if you're trying for off-ledge combat. And finally, it's great for gimping, but only if you absolutely need to pull out a hitbox. Otherwise, it's better to bait/stall and just attempt the d-air.
-Cross-'s Input: I like this option OoS while charging charge shot. The safest and quickest forward attack from that position. I like this after SH uair>FF nair on shield. I only do the nair if I end up behind the opponent though, if I land in front, it's an auto shield grab. Gimping has been mentioned but since its faster than dair I like it just as much. Nair works just as well as dair in terms of gimping against anybody without a good recovery. Good combo breaker move also.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: D Tier
-Cross- thinks: C Tier
NO-IDea thinks: C Tier
Karcist thinks: Bottom of C Tier
IsmaR's reserved think section:
Overall Conclusion: Bottom of C Tier atm.
Discussion - (29/1/2010 - 31/1/2010)
Back Aerial
Back Aerial
Pros:
*For Samus, Or actually in general, a decent KO move (LOL SAMUS ACTUALLY HAS ONE XD).
*Has nice range
*Baits a shield
*Hard to DI
*Has very nice setups
Cons:
*One of her slower aerials (still frame 9 hit though, not bad)
*Has a sour spot and sweet spot
*Pretty hard to land
-Cross-'s Input: A cool t to get auto-sweetspot on bair everytime, is if you SH and bair twice at optimal speed. The second bair, if you hit a with the tip of her foot will always be sweetspot.
LanceStern's Input: bair -> walljumping off of stages like battlefield and running directly off the edge of a stage and immediately backairing.[/QUOTE]
NO-IDea's Input: 10% normal, 14% and higher knockback sweetspotted. Also a really hard move to DI. One of those moves with high knockback that if you DI directly up, you can still be killed vertically depending on your character's weight class.
However, there are solid ways to land it. For example, platforms are a great way to set-up a b-air hit. Bait their shield, then attempt to shield poke. Read their air movements through a platform, bait their air dodge and punish. Start up with u-air, then avoid using the last hit of u-airs hitbox and switch into b-air.
The other common way to land b-air is off missile canceling. Homing missiles usually, but I've chained b-air off super missiles before at low percents. Also in common with platform pressuring, be sure to bait the shield if you're going for the b-air. And to space for the sweet-spot! This is very important. Higher shield stun and longest spacing = less punishment options for your opponent.
Finally, while b-air isn't the best spacing maneuver, it still is a great spacing punisher. It can punish Marth's f-air, DK's b-air and most other typical aerial spacers. Again, it all comes down to baiting and punishing. If they're going to use a rising aerial against you, short hop bait and b-air them. If they use a falling aerial against you, then get into their zone and punish OoS with up+b or n-air. If they use a retreating aerial against you, you can outspace them with z-air. In other words, don't let them spam aerials since you have an answer to all three kinds of them.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: B tier
NO-IDea thinks: B tier
DelxDoom thinks: B tier
Overall Conclusion: B tier, below fsmash.
Discussion - (1/2/2010 - 3/2/2010)
Up Aerial
Up Aerial
Pros:
*Combos well
*Outstanding priority
*Great range
*Autocancels into combos
*Very fast
*Very little ending lag
*Gimps well
*Great shield pressure
Cons:
*Can be DIed out of
*Final hit loses its touch at higher %s.
-Cross-'s Input: Uair as you said is definitely a candidate for her best aerial move. Multi-hit, comes out quickly, and combos ridiculously well. Tied for fastest aerial, starting at frame 5 and having multi-hitboxes makes it amazing for shield pressure in the form of platform pressure. Your pretty much guaranteed something good whether its getting a low shield or getting some damage, when you use uair on an opponent. When grounded, its riskier to get the uair off, but the rewards are just as great. I remember Xyro mentioning falling uair>upB is almost a guaranteed shield poke.
Autocancelling uair combos into upB and more moves with higher %, while landing all the hits on an airborne opponent may lead to a zair, a fair/nair, and even another uair.
Also the range on this move is absolutely ridiculous. In terms of its ability to shut off aerial approaches from above, this move takes the cake. For instance, I have had numerous instances where I have beaten G&W's dair head on with uair. Screw attack can not do this.
Its ability to shut off vertical approaches makes it an incredibly safe alternative compared to Screw attack. The amount of shield pressure along with its combo ability are just amazing bonuses for this move. Especially the shield depletio, since it puts more pressure on the opponent coupled with your camping game and opens up more potential damage. Along with all this, uair still seems to have some unexplored uses. Unexplored potential on an already amazing move?
NO-IDea's Input: Does 11% fresh when all hits connect, last hit having small horizontal knockback. Therefore, it's the penultimate combo move, almost always being able to chain into something else. If you connect with the last hit, you can nearly always chain a z-air if they're high up in the air (or force them to air dodge... I will re-address this again in a bit), chain a f-air at mid percents and even chain grabs at low percents.
What happens when you don't connect the last hit? If you're rising with the u-air, you may not have many options other than a footstool, which in itself isn't bad since you can reset spacing while the opponents readjust themselves. If you're at the same height, we've got n-air, z-air, and b-air, take your pick. If you're falling with u-air and don't connect, again all aerials come into play, predominantly n-air. Although if you auto-cancel it on the ground, we've then got d-smash, up+b, f-tilt, etc. At higher percents and correct spacing, you can true combo falling u-air->jab->f-smash because landing lag frames prevent them from shielding the f-smash.
There are advanced tactics with u-air as well. Going back onto u-air combos and connecting with the last hitbox, what if they air dodge? I pose this question because from here, Samus has a ton of bait and punish moves for the wary opponent that is scared of z-air. For example, off stage, how often have you chained u-air or z-air into a spike because your opponent air dodged too early out of prediction? Your answer should be "often enough to know it works!"
Experiment; try chaining charge shot to the last hit of u-air, even d-air while on stage. You can pivot grab off of falling u-air once you've conditioned your opponent to shield the up+b/d-smash/f-tilt etc. If you really want to be fancy, try u-air, bait their air dodge into dash attack (weak hit) into up+b. All you have to do is condition them to not double jump after u-air (because you can always follow-up with rising f-air by reaction) and then all the mind games from their limited air dodge come into play.
Other small notes: yes it is possible to SDI out of u-air since it is a multi-hit move, but then it all comes down to you knowing which aerial to follow up with or when to retreat. Also at higher percents, if u-air knocks them too far away, homing missiles are always a good follow-up option.
Finally, u-air's diagonal hitbox (somewhat disjointed at the tip) allows it to beat a multitude of d-airs in the cast. G&W is one if spaced correctly, as well as Lucario, Toon Link, even ICs if horizontal enough! U-air's hitbox also does a decent job of covering her mid section, allowing FF u-air to be a tool for gimping. Invincible rising/falling u-airs are always fun to do
RaigothDagon's Input: A big downfall seeming to be overlooked here, it sucks against tinies. They will never get hit by this move unless they are in the air. A big advantage to this move is how it is lagless upon landing, and being small pretty much nullifies one of it's greatest advantages.[/QUOTE]
LanceStern's Input:
- It's great for poking the opponent from under the stage (either places like Lylat or Delfino) or poking under the ledge (either wall jumping BF or just ledge dropping and jumping to uair).
- Uair WRECKS big characters, especially fat characters
- The way Uair combos into other moves if you don't land the last hit is insane. I personally like a ff uair to jab to anything else.
- FF uair -> screw attack for shield pokes.
- And lets not forget to mention we use it for momentum cancelling purposes...
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: A Tier
NO-IDea thinks: S Tier
LanceStern thinks: S Tier
RaigothDagon thinks: A Tier
-Cross- thinks: S Tier
Mr9 thinks: S Tier
Overall Conclusion: S Tier (Her first move up there, congrats Samus, you ain't completely worthless <3)
Discussion - (4/2/2010 - 7/2/2010)
Forward Aerial
Forward Aerial
Pros:
*Good Spacing tool
*Multihit
*Does nice damage if all hits connect
*Combos well
Cons:
*Can be easily SDI'ed out of
*Ending lag is punishable
-Cross-'s Input: Fair is a good anti-air option, if you read an opponent correctly, Full hop fair is better than SH fair as anti-air. What's nice about FH fair is if you hit an opponent with it, you can shoot a homing missile or zair while falling down and immediately cancel it for another followup and thus more pressure.
The downfall of this move is not simply the fact that it can be SDI'd out of, but that it can be SDI'd rather easily. Some moves are difficult to SDI out of, but fair isn't the hardest thing for an opponent to DI out of. Of course this is dependent on character size, but combined with the ending frames for this move, its also simple for an opponent to punish her.
Aside from this fact, fair is nice for maintaining walls (FH and FF fair at the peak of your jump to see how nice of a wall that looks like) and if you land one of the hits that have little knockback at higher %'s you can combo into dtilt/ or my personal favorite tilted ftilt and your other quick options. Also using this to recover from the edge is nice, but it is much safer to ledge drop and second jump fair then start moving back as the fair hitboxes progress for a good gtfo from the edge tactic. Also use this in conjunction with uair platform pressure.
RaigothDagon's Input: If an opponent is on a platform and you hit them with part of fair, the hitstun lasts long enough and pops them up enough that you can combo into other attacks like upair or upb. I'd have to test this out, but it may be guaranteed if you hit them while doing this. It could also be character/stage dependent, but I know I have chained these attacks quite a bit of the time.
Conclusion:
KillerJawz thinks: Low B Tier
-Cross- thinks: Low B Tier
Overall Conclusion: Low B Tier. Below Forward Smash
Discussion - (10/2/2010) - (13/2/2010)
Downward Aerial
Pros:
*Does 14% fresh
*Combos well
*Great gimping tool
*Tech chases well
Cons:
*Startup lag
*Predictable from a Samus player
*Loses its combo abilities at higher percentages
DelxDoom's Input: Dair is a good move. To be a good Samus player, you must start by being familiar with what you can do with the dair. What's cool about this move is that if it connects on grounded opponents it has a little bit more hitstun than normal moves (including upon having upwards knockback, not just the grounded spinny animation). This allows for a few limited "true combos". Up B is probably the easiest, but you can do a fully charged shot at some percentages and random crap. It's especially nice because of the low landing lag, a lot less than a WHOLE LOT of the cast's dairs
-Cross-'s Input: Always look for ways to set up a dair spike. It is the quickest way to kill for Samus. Without she would be absolutely screwed when it comes to killing because she would never kill below 100% . Personally I find SH homing missile to run off stage homing missile to be a good option. You have enough time to double jump and spike if the second homing missile lands. Actually this is crazy, there are too many situational setups to get a favorable position for dair'ing, that and conditioning helps this a lot. Just remember your goal is to either bait a punishable air dodge, or make an opponent waste or hit them out of their second jump. Charge shot (charged or uncharged), both types of missile cancels, and zairs are the most common ways to set that up (not limited to these moves though)
RaigothDagon's Input: This is her EARILIEST kill move indeed, because if you have someone idiotic enough to land it on while they are offstage, it kills at ridiculously low percentages. If you play smart and always keep the opponent guessing, you could get this kill move on them. Or you could play wifail and land it nearly all the time. Definitely one of the moves that Samus players will want to get the spacing right on. I left dair for fair because of it being less punishable, but I see that both are useful, and dair pays off more. Surely a good move for combo setups. As was mentioned, dair -> upb, another popular one that pretty much everyone uses is on a grounded dair -> bair. Great kill setup, but only if the dair doesn't pop them too high or they airdodge because everyone overuses it... I seem to recall a certain aerial that chains from dair as well. Maybe uair or fair? Maybe even another dair. I think that one is possible on certain characters at around 30%. Could be thinking of Melee or N64 Samus though. Another great low percentage link is dair -> utilt. One of the few ways I can actually pull that move out (other than using near the ledge or under platforms). Another great thing is if the opponent isn't popped up enough to do an action but doesn't have enough stun. This could lead to great tech chasing. If they didn't tech, you could always stand around and wait to punish them with a grab. Here's something that hasn't been brought up. Jab locks anyone? An unteched dair = possibility for a jab lock. A great setup for it that I've seen is super missle -> dair -> jab lock. Or at low enough percentages that it pops them up only slightly and they don't tech, you can jab lock after that. Of course this is all much harder in application, but if you can pull it off consistently in matches then good for you. Overall, this is a very sexy move that Samus has in her arsenal. Getting to use it in a match, that is the hard part. Unless you can figure out how to properly space this move, you will get punished everytime. This move is soooo easy to see coming, most opponents will be able to react as soon as you start it. Certain small characters can punish you for using this move even if it is properly spaced, so be careful who you try it against. I know the small characters are when this move is attempted the most.
Karcist's Input: One of my favorite things about this is to dair on stage and forward smash. This allows for early kills besides the spike. Morph ball bombs and missiles can lead into spikes easily as well if you take advantage of the hitstun right. I wouldn't say this is her best kill MOVE but one of her best SETUPS.
KillerJawz's input: Dair as said many times before, can get Samus the low percent kills she DESPERATLY needs, BUT, you must note however, that although set ups for this can be gorgeous, this move does not come out as quick, and is definatly one her slower aerials. It does a lovely 14% fresh and can actually KO opponents ONSTAGE due to a stage well spike if you want to call it that, normally killing around the 160% mark, which for Samus, although is a bit high, is VERY unexpected. A nice little plus to this move, is the fall speed Samus has. It's both a gift and curse to be floaty, but normally when characers do their dairs, they hit the floor, with Samus, she can do a dair, and come down slow enough to tech chase another dair, and that's where my next point comes in, Tech Chasing with dair. When Samus successfully knocks an opponent to the floor, she can rapidly chase their tech with another dair for some serious damage. I personally landed four dairs in a row due to this, and got myself a beautiful 40%+
Conclusion:
KillerJawz: Low B Tier
Karcist thinks: A Tier, Below Charge Shot
RaigothDagon thinks: B Tier
-Cross- thinks: A Tier
Overall Conclusion: Top of B Tier.
Discussion - (14/2/2010) - (17/2/2010)
Z Aerial
Z Aerial
Pros:
*Combos EXTREMELY well
*Never stales
*Has two hitboxes
*Good gimping tool
*Very safe move
*Very very long
*Tether recovery
*Insanely good priority
*Tip is capable of KOing
*Spacing tool
Cons:
*Ruined by breakable scenery (Castle Siege's Statues)
*Does not refresh other moves
*Does 4% [7% Tipper]
Muz's Input: Here are some other useful tips for zair
# -Airdodge an attack into a zair to counter is so key, especially against other projectiles, but also works well against melee attacks. Learning to do this against Falco's laser makes the match somewhat bearable.
# -When recovering, this same idea works, airdodge a gimp attempt, then zair quickly to the ledge to turn the gimping around.
# -zair when you are hit by moves that hit you horizontally is sweet, as you can often hit the person before their move finished. This is great against forward/down throws usually. Here it is important to practice zairing with Airdodge->Zair because sometimes if you just hit Z, then you'll airdodge only, which is pretty annoying.
# -short hop into an immediate zair works great against olimar, mario, pikachu, peach, toon link and link, who like to jump and shoot projectiles. It'll destroy the projectile and also hit them, forcing them to change their approach
# -zair is great at poking shields, especially on large characters. If you can get a person to shield a smash missile, then zairing their head even when they shield is almost gauranteed.
# -Also on large characters (rob, snake, ddd, ganon, samus etc) you can do a rising short hop zair and hit them while they are still on the ground, especially if they just finished certain attacks which make their hurtboxes larger.
# -Retethering. Basically after you grab the ledge, press back, then z twice to quickly regrab it and refresh invincibility. This is so important for gimping, and if timed right, you can even retether in the middle of multihit moves like link's upB
# -zair is great for gimping recovering opponents, and with the tip can kill them directly if they are far enough out.
# -Reverse shot hop zair to quickly grab the ledge, faster than speed hugging.
# -full hop to ff zair works surpringly well, as opponents think they can dash under you, but the ff speed will catch them off gaurd. for added security, di away while you ff.
# -Zair are a great mixup in full hop double missles, for the same reason, people think they can run under both missles, but mixing a zair will catch them.
# -charge shot cancel into zair is awesome. While you are charging, must opponents will try to jump at you. But you can cancel the charge with shield, immediately jump and zair and hit them quick.
# -zair is awesome when people try to counterpick stages like luigi's mansion, brinstar, and castle seige, because they think they can avoid your projectiles behind the pillars. well they are in for a big surprise, heh
# -One mindgame i like to throw out occasionally is that I'll run at an opponent, quickly turn around a jump, still moving towards them, airdodge through their grab attempt, then zair the back of their head.
# -falling zair into a quick short hop rising zair combo's well against peach especially, who likes to float after the first zair. Also works against people who DI up alot.
# -Against characters that can reflect projectiles, shoot a seeking missle, and as they reflect it, zair the missle and them together. That always makes me smile
*Some things to be careful about*
>One thing that Raigoth mentioned that I think deserves to be mentioned again is that you shouldn't overuse zair. Especially if a person is on a platform, alot of times an F-air/Up-Air is a better option simply because they do more damage, but also because you can juggle.
>Also mix up uncharged shots with zairs when a person is returning to throw off their airdodging, plus it has less lag.
>Oh and be careful when mashing z to get out of grabs that can kill, because it may cause you to zair upon release, extending your hurtbox, and causing you to die faster.
RaigothDagon's Input: Zair is the only aerial that anyone should even have considered S tier. This move alone could be S tier material among all characters. If there were any reason why it wouldn't be considered for S tier overall would be because it does 4% damage and doesn't deteriorate or refresh. This is of course under the assumption that you don't tip doing 7% with it.
This move is one of her best combo starters. Coming back to how it never deteriorates or refreshes, if you don't tip with it, knockback will be nearly the same at all percentages. That means a combo/chain that worked against a certain player/character will work at nearly all percentages. This is a move that allows a whole lot of creativity for Samus players, because just about anything can come out of this move when it is canceled on the ground. In fact, this move usually chains into itself in the air because the hitstun changes depending on if the opponent did something in between or not. Almost like a counter hit.
Some of the combos/chains I've seen are zair -> grab, uair -> zair, zair -> utilt, zair -> dtilt, zair -> ftilt, dthrow -> zair. It is a great damage racker and generally makes it safer to use other moves. It is also one of her kill moves. The tip of zair can kill MK at about 170% depending on what part of the stage you are on.
This is Samus' safest move. It has so much distance on other characters, it is ridiculous. It has so much priority, I don't think I have ever seen this move canceled out. I have only seen it interrupted. It makes such a good counter move, a move followup, combo starter, the versatility of this move is amazing. If it's usefulness for combat weren't enough, it also has awesome range for recovery as a tether.
Tether recoveries are amazingly safe too. While you can be hit out of a tether recovery before you snap to the ledge, once you grab the ledge you may do anything you want with zero lag. While invincibility doesn't last near as long, the usefulness of being able to do anything you want the instant you latch on is immeasurable. Recently discussed was the tether cancel, and such things as taking advantage of those invincibility frames to do other moves. Such things make Samus a beast on the ledge, and possibly is where Samus will progress in the future.
Gimping. This move is great off the stage, and because of Samus' great recovery, it allows her to punish characters that generally will go unpunished offstage. Adding in a great priority, this move is pretty unbeatable offstage. Pretty much the only option an enemy has offstage against Samus is to airdodge and come in at a safe angle. Most players get into the habit of DIing up because Samus has too many options to stop them from coming in below.
-Cross-'s Input: There is too much to talk about when you talk about zair. Well basics, 7% tip, 4% everywhere else. Does NOT STALE so it will always do the same damage. Amazing range, although there are blind spots in there. Can be used out of air dodge which is a very nice ability, and allows for some immediate counterattacking abilities. Possibly the best tether grab range (not sure on this one, so somebody else confirm). Autocancels upon landing, so you have will always have 2 or 4 frames of landing lag (soft or hard landing), making it your best aerial if zair is considered as such.
This move combos into dash attack or dash grab (also jab and ftilt) at low %'s depending on where in your zair the opponent got hit. At higher %'s you could combo into charge shot or another zair. The long range zair is obviously used to keep your opponents out. Mixed with your camping game, you have the ability to cover and control an obscene amount of ground with this move. Abuse it. There is no way an opponent can punish this (Perfect Shield or not) if they are at a mid-long distance range. Now spamming it without reason will not get you wins, but just remember that this is the bread and butter of your camping game along with missiles.
SH immediate zair can be used to shut down opponents who have a tendency to try and jump over your projectiles, only use this when you anticipate the jump, because the opponent can just run up and punish you since Samus fall speed is slow. Otherwise you will mostly use zair as you are falling seeing as it is a lot safer because you will autocancel. SHFF zair is also possible, and it adds speed to your Samus. But it covers only mid range, and should be used to catch on coming opponents off guard, because they expect you to slow fall zair. There is also FH double zair, which can counter high up opponents, and usually you can catch them with the second zair if they don't have more than 2 jumps, even if you don't you are put into an advantageous position if they wasted their jump to get out.
You really can not go wrong with zair, just do not use it thoughtlessly.
I really do not know what tier to give this move
/sarcasm
Edit: Btw I was still writing my post when Raigoth posted, so if I repeated info sorry.
Anyway something in Raigoth's post:
The knockback tidbit is false. Knockback is not nearly the same at all %'s just because it does not stale/refresh. Not staling only means that the knockback will always increase at a consistent rate. So if you discover a combo, let's say zair>fully charged f-smash (this is fake btw) and it works at 90%. Then this combo will be guaranteed at 90% but not necessarily at higher or lower %'s. Just keep that in mind.
Also despite zair's priority it can not beat out MK's nado head on. You can if you get the zair to travel above the hitboxes on the side and get the tip to hit MK in the middle, which is ridiculously difficult. I do not know what other moves can beat zair out, but usually zair will win. And something I forgot to mention, this move can be used to cancel out most projectiles (expect translucent ones) which can shut down a lot of campers.
Conclusion:
Everyone thinks / knows: S Tier
Overall Conclusion: S Tier
Important Notice(s):
*Just note that we will be coming back to discussions after a complete cycle, you don't need to add on any more information at the moment.