Britches and Hose Mafia - Game Over!

[felipe_9595]

At least i learned some things from this game ( I didnt know that in forum Mafia kills happens at the same time, i am used to a Mafia kill having priority over town kills), next time i need to be little less cegated by facts. I didnt believe adum was scum tracker or than swiss was indy ( if only we would have lynched Swiss/Adum, it would hae been a victory XDD So close xD)

 

[Swiss]

At least i learned some things from this game ( I didnt know that in forum Mafia kills happens at the same time, i am used to a Mafia kill having priority over town kills), next time i need to be little less cegated by facts. I didnt believe adum was scum tracker or than swiss was indy ( if only we would have lynched Swiss/Adum, it would hae been a victory XDD So close xD)

Town never even came close to winning this game. I never came close to being realistically lynched - and Adum scraped there once and easily carved his way back through town while I was asleep.

 

[felipe_9595]

If Sokr had choosed you instead of adum we would have won.

 

[Asdioh]

he had a bulletproof protection. it would give you an extra day to lynch: if you lynched adum, swiss would have won anyway.

 

[felipe_9595]

Oh nvm, derping even after game.

yeah we were ****ed :D

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adumb man, you had me fooled. I''m going to take your slot as a learning experience. For now on when a good player attacks one of my town reads I'm going to look into it. I'm NOT going to dismiss it just because the effort "looks" genuine. I was too hooked up on the thought that you were going to play like you did in Melee mafia, where you set yourself up for townie points upon mislynches.

So what did I do that you can actually pick up on? Good players have misreads and I've been known to have a number of them myself since I've always been stronger town then scum. What if I'm right and you're wrong?


Oh, and *wrinkles brow* when did I do that in melee mafia?

he had a bulletproof protection. it would give you an extra day to lynch: if you lynched adum, swiss would have won anyway.

There's a reason I suggested the strategy I did. While it would've been useful to me, it was the only only way town could've won in that situation.


And honestly Asdioh, I expect you to know better.

 

[Sokr]

Felipe, after we lynched July it was between Mafia and Swiss to win it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You know what I take that partially back. Sokr played real well considering how little xp he has with this game.

 

[felipe_9595]

yeah in the end he played very well, at the beginning he was pretty disoriented.

 

[Asdioh]

There's a reason I suggested the strategy I did. While it would've been useful to me, it was the only only way town could've won in that situation.


And honestly Asdioh, I expect you to know better.

There's a reason I roleblocked swiss
The problem with D3 was that it was you vs swiss, and while I should have been looking for an indy, I didn't, because there's no guarantee there was an indy and I was looking for the other two mafia. Also, the fact that John was SO SO SO scummy and I really wanted to lynch him over you two... and so we did. If I had lived to D4, I definitely would have been looking at Swiss or July.

Again, why did you kill me D3 over Swiss or Sokr? Did you actually think I would have roleblocked you? Did you want to leave Swiss alive to lynch him?

 

[adumbrodeus]

There's a reason I roleblocked swiss
The problem with D3 was that it was you vs swiss, and while I should have been looking for an indy, I didn't, because there's no guarantee there was an indy and I was looking for the other two mafia. Also, the fact that John was SO SO SO scummy and I really wanted to lynch him over you two... and so we did. If I had lived to D4, I definitely would have been looking at Swiss or July.

Again, why did you kill me D3 over Swiss or Sokr? Did you actually think I would have roleblocked you? Did you want to leave Swiss alive to lynch him?

Hard indy read, was worried about bp. Was between you and sokr basically and I saw you as more dangerous since I thought I could exert a fair amount of control over sokr's kill.

I don't generally pick people to kill based on who likes me more.

 

[Kantrip]

Thanks for the comments, guys. Just wondering from adum/Swiss:

If I could theoretically erase everything about my playstyle and start from scratch, but I had to keep one thing, what quality would you say I should keep?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

So what did I do that you can actually pick up on? Good players have misreads and I've been known to have a number of them myself since I've always been stronger town then scum. What if I'm right and you're wrong?


Oh, and *wrinkles brow* when did I do that in melee mafia?

Well, not only did I think that your attack on Kantrip was wrong, but I also remember thinking it was unfair. I thought that you were making too big of a deal out of it oringally.

Note though that I didn't say that when I think a good player is wrong I'm going to think they're scum, just that I'm going to look more into good players when they are wrong. There was probably a line of questioning that I should of asked you about your early Kantrip read that I didn't.

What you did in Melee mafia was give out town reads on town players that could of been mislynched. For example, I can't remember his name, but there was one townie that a lot of people thought were scum, but you somehow interpreted his actions as townie. You were setting yourself up for town points in that situation, which you didn't do here.

@Swiss: If you were town, how would you of dealt with Adumb after seeing his PR softclaim?

 

[Swiss]

Thanks for the comments, guys. Just wondering from adum/Swiss:

If I could theoretically erase everything about my playstyle and start from scratch, but I had to keep one thing, what quality would you say I should keep?

Confidence.

Without confidence you'll get nowhere, no matter how right you are, no matter how correct your reads - you need to convince people you're right.

There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance - and crossing that has been the downfall of many players.

 

[Swiss]

@Swiss: If you were town, how would you of dealt with Adumb after seeing his PR softclaim?

Assuming I were the town RB'er and I saw his crumb saying he knew I visited Sokr?

Ideally I'd have made him give his next night action or visit who I wanted. In regards to the code etc, I still would have done it - but would have been far more subtle about it.

I'd not have assumed he was town tracker, but the play was very smart and I'd have taken it as a town tell (not many scum give out info when it's not necessary). It's difficult to say exactly what I'd have done as to my mind it would entirely be dependant on Adum's tactic doing it (which was influenced by my reaction as an Indie Marker).

 

[Swiss]

Basically, you asked me a question that's really hard to answer.

 

[Kantrip]

I thought adum's attack on me was pretty unfair too. When I came to a conclusion and voted him, that was legitimate but I backed down really easily because I didn't want the attacks to start all over again from me "OMGUSing".

Retrospect 20/20 here, I didn't like how easily he backed down when you and I were suspecting him, and how he said "my read has changed on you Kantrip, yours has changed on me too, right?"

@Swiss: That's true. It's hard to know when to be confident, though. I have yet to pick up completely on my scumhunting game, and so confidence is something that, when I'm showing it, is probably not really all that confident after all. In that regard, I will only ever catch bad scum players. I'll be really good at it, though

 

[Asdioh]

regret time.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13763870&postcount=1325
so close.

@Swiss: if we had received opposite role PMs, what would have happened? :3
Also, what did you plan on claiming if Adum had never tracked you? Were you like "oh ****" when you saw my claim, since you (reasonably) didn't expect a town roleblocker?

But yeah, there's no we have a census taker (which is EXTREMELY powerful) a tracker AND a gunsmith. Plus two roleblockers and a vigdoctor. I don't care what the scumteam would have to counter that, there's no way.

but then we lynched July >_<

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13783173&postcount=1586 http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13790417&postcount=1625 me being almost smart



http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13781090&postcount=1581
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13788847#post13788847
:\ should have pushed legitimate scumslips

 

[Swiss]

Initially I was gonna claim DayVig - seems to work pretty well.

 

[Swiss]

Also, I've run over the set-up a few times in my head - not convinced. Really like the idea, though. Never been a fan of PR heavy games though. Give me a newbie set-up with strong players any day.

Thanks to Gova for modding and really enjoyed myself.

 

[adumbrodeus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13781090&postcount=1581
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13788847#post13788847
:\ should have pushed legitimate scumslips

Asdioh, you think that me saying nk was a scumslip?

We had an obvious-town vig, with the only possibility being that he was mentored which came up a lot later in the game. Yes, town can have nks too, you just did. In this game.

I thought you were joking otherwise I would've busted your chops about it in game, but seriously asdioh. Respect -20.

 

[Asdioh]

Initially I was gonna claim DayVig - seems to work pretty well.

lol.

Also, I've run over the set-up a few times in my head - not convinced. Really like the idea, though. Never been a fan of PR heavy games though. Give me a newbie set-up with strong players any day.

Thanks to Gova for modding and really enjoyed myself.

Not convinced of what?

I don't know, Kantrip. I'm voting Adum because Swiss was seen visiting someone that wasn't Sworddancer N1, and we have to lynch one of the two I guess. I really don't care at this point.
Like I said, the Adum wagon looks grosser than the Swiss wagon. It could be his scummate (John or July) bussing him, but if it's John, I have no idea how he plans to win the game after losing Adum.
The Swiss wagon is full of townies, possible exception being Adum.

oh that accuracy. I especially would like to know what the hell John would have done after bussing adum, lol.

I thought you were joking otherwise I would've busted your chops about it in game, but seriously asdioh. Respect -20.

Calling town NKs anything other than "vig?" :mistyface:

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes, people do that interchangeably. A NK is a NK, a vig is a specific kind of nk.

 

[Asdioh]

swiss, what say you on that subject?

 

[Swiss]

First you could take as a scum slip in his thought process in that he said role and not alignment, but no-one would have followed it.

Second is in no way a slip. You order the NK you order the vig / sk-pretending-to-be-vig.

 

[Swiss]

And townies should be trying to figure out people's roles anyway. Just because it's anti-town to make people reveal information about their role - doesn't mean you can't figure out their role anyway.

Basically Adum is right, in my opinion.

 

[adumbrodeus]

swiss, what say you on that subject?

And this is why he was was able to feed you sh** like a two town RB. You don't really have a lot of necessary conceptual connections and you go to players you interpret as an authority instead of examining the information and figuring it out.


As long as you stay like this, you'll never get past mid-level player.


Edit: I'm sorry about being harsh here, I am a bit salty, but conceptually I hope you can take this to heart. I think you have a lot of room to grow if you learn how to think about mafia

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well, not only did I think that your attack on Kantrip was wrong, but I also remember thinking it was unfair. I thought that you were making too big of a deal out of it oringally.

Actually it wasn't really, I was posing as trying to read intent and to be quite honest his early collapse had me place him as a strong indy candidate if you read the QT. I just couldn't see a protown reasoning for his actions.

If you read my past games, there's plenty of examples of me latching on to minor subtleties like this to scumhunt as town, Resident Evil mafia is a good example of me using it to read a scum (indy in that case and I thought her target was town, but whatevs).

Note though that I didn't say that when I think a good player is wrong I'm going to think they're scum, just that I'm going to look more into good players when they are wrong. There was probably a line of questioning that I should of asked you about your early Kantrip read that I didn't.

Fair enough.

It's all about intent.

What you did in Melee mafia was give out town reads on town players that could of been mislynched. For example, I can't remember his name, but there was one townie that a lot of people thought were scum, but you somehow interpreted his actions as townie. You were setting yourself up for town points in that situation, which you didn't do here.

You mean gorf? TBH I wasn't planning on just leaving that read, I wanted to protect him from his wagon. I don't generally just drop townreads without following em up unless i go full lurker mode which is usually due to lack of time, not alignment.

I drop townreads that everyone disagrees with in games where I'm town all the time too, remember bioware.

 

[Asdioh]

don't be mad, he was viewing and i wanted to hear his opinion as a more experienced player. i still think there was a scummy thought process behind both of those "slips" and I doubt you would have said them (or at least the role one) as town. i also think that it would be ridiculously hard to push you as scum alone on those, but if it was added to scummy play (which i didn't think you had) it would only help my case. sort of icing on the scumcake.


and two roleblockers is conceivable, but the setup would have to be balanced around it, which we had no way of knowing in a partial flip game. more importantly, i roleblocked him n3 for a reason. i preferred the john lynch D3 because he was so blatantly scummy, and you yourself pretty much proved swiss couldn't be mafia, when i was looking for mafia.

 

[adumbrodeus]

don't be mad, he was viewing and i wanted to hear his opinion as a more experienced player. i still think there was a scummy thought process behind both of those "slips" and I doubt you would have said them (or at least the role one) as town. i also think that it would be ridiculously hard to push you as scum alone on those, but if it was added to scummy play (which i didn't think you had) it would only help my case. sort of icing on the scumcake.

I absolutely would've called it a nk as town. I do all the time.


The role one, less likely. The thing you have to remember is getting role is in the tracker's thought process as well, so it's a very weak tell.

 

[Asdioh]

yes, and your reaction to kantrip's guilty ("there can't be a cop as i am the tracker") was an example of town tracker thought process, so i was impressed there.

 

[adumbrodeus]

and two roleblockers is conceivable, but the setup would have to be balanced around it, which we had no way of knowing in a partial flip game. more importantly, i roleblocked him n3 for a reason. i preferred the john lynch D3 because he was so blatantly scummy, and you yourself pretty much proved swiss couldn't be mafia, when i was looking for mafia.

Again, it wasn't balanced for it at all. There would need to be a 2 lynch buffer because double roles don't happen for town. It mean an auto 2 lynches unless you depend on one of the players being a fantastically good speaker AND having a super-hard townread on the other. Also, the game has to be primarily comprised of weaker players.


Edit: and yea, this isn't about me being mad per say. It's about a fundamental weakness in your thought process.

 

[Swiss]

Depending on the set-up, two town RB'ers is possible - albeit incredibly unlikely.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Depending on the set-up, two town RB'ers is possible - albeit incredibly unlikely.

Large game. Some indication of the possibility of double'd roles. In a small, they'd basically have to be mod-confirmed town to each other to work or the mod would have to specify it in thread somehow.

Or a REALLY large game.

 

[Kantrip]

I agree with adum in part, Asdioh. One thing (if not THE one thing) holding you back from greatness is your reliance on "high level players". Just because you think a player is superior to you in some manner doesn't mean you have to run every single thing by them. Not only does this open yourself up to manipulation, but it also leaves you dependent on the presence of these players. If you can decide on your own what the answer is, then I believe you can really shine. Though this doesn't mean never ask the top players stuff. Just don't rely on it. Then you will be one of those top players

Hey adum, I don't need you to explain why you were disappointed with me this game as it is pretty clear to me where I went full ******, but could you outline something for me to take away going into future games? I want to know how to capitilize so that when we play again the same thing doesn't happen. Thanks.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I agree with adum in part, Asdioh. One thing (if not THE one thing) holding you back from greatness is your reliance on "high level players". Just because you think a player is superior to you in some manner doesn't mean you have to run every single thing by them. Not only does this open yourself up to manipulation, but it also leaves you dependent on the presence of these players. If you can decide on your own what the answer is, then I believe you can really shine. Though this doesn't mean never ask the top players stuff. Just don't rely on it. Then you will be one of those top players

An important thing to remember is this isn't the same as barreling forward regardless of what people say, You need to remember that it's not about who's right, it's about what's right.

Yielding to players because they're good players is bad. Yielding to players cause they're obviously right is good.

Hey adum, I don't need you to explain why you were disappointed with me this game as it is pretty clear to me where I went full ******, but could you outline something for me to take away going into future games? I want to know how to capitilize so that when we play again the same thing doesn't happen. Thanks.

Don't get cocky. Seriously.

 

[Swiss]

You should all definitely do what I say and always yield to me.

I'll only lynch you anyway.

 

[felipe_9595]

In fact we went ******** on d3, when we were pretty much ****ed.

Only thing i can say about you Kantrip, you are WAY too defensive. I hope you can see what did i see you as scum if you reread.

 

[Gova]

Felipe, town was noticeably winning the entire game up until D4 when you guys decided it would be a good idea to lynch July after Asdioh had flipped town.

 

[Kantrip]

I was defensive, yes. However I will never see what you saw felipe, as we analyze in completely different ways. Both were evidently wrong this game.