Brawl will be as competitive of melee eventually!

[WastingPenguins]

Raise your hand if you're posting nonsense in this thread and yet have never played Smash Bros. in a remotely competitive setting (i.e. not just with your friends in your living room.)

...

Yeah, basically. Yuna, why bother with these threads?

 

[tennisthehilife]

Competitive = Tournament

Of course all fighting games are "competitive" but few are deep and fast-paced, hand and head sweating tourney worthy.

Hopefully Brawl will be at least as competitive as Melee or even more.

 

[-sonny-]

Dude .. brawl is a new game. you dont know what to look for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU HAVE NO CLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you keep talking about elitism. This is it. Just because you grew up with melee, and helped make up rules for the competitive scene, you automatically KNOW everything about brawl just by playing it for 3 weeks?

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

man, i can only take so much before i crack.

Seriously. The people who were "somebodies" in melee are now "nobodies" in brawl.

Youre opinion doesnt matter to anyone. The only possible thing that is important coming from a melee vets mouth is the way to develop the competitive scene.

i.e.

Look for "this". Don't rely too heavily on doing "this". Play a lot. Blah blah blah.

Don't talk to people like you understand Brawl. Like you know its more simple just because they changed some of the things from melee to make them easier. It just makes you look like a chump.

/harshness off

No, I don't think you understand.

I'm not going to just repeat Yuna's first post, so I really suggest you read it. Basically, the community is not new to Smash games anymore. They've found out a couple of things, but really for the most part it's things that have been removed. I seriously doubt that that much more will be found out in the next year or two.

 

[Catfish_Mike]

Oh yes, we've seen how Online play has done wonders to Dead or Alive 4. I mean, that scene's sooooo large!

At least in DoA4, you could face off against random players for rank. In Brawl, you can only play against people you already know (somehow) or completely random people you won't know the name of in 2 minute FFAs... for no rank at all. It's basically just a whole bunch of friendlies with added lag.

The Competitive Smash Scene will revolve around the game the most Competitive Smashers put their support behind. It's not about not wanting to adapt or "renewing" ourselves. It's not wanting to play a game we view as inferior when a much better game is available. It's pur decision, it's our view. I don't see tons of people calling you an idiot for choosing Brawl over Melee. Why are you insult me for choosing Melee over Brawl for completely valid reasons?

Calm down there bro, no one is insulting you. I'm saying that the Brawl scene has nothing to do with the Melee vets. Brawl will develop a competitive scene based on it's own merits, not on what the Melee vets perceive as flaws. You can all stick with Melee, but the majority of people are going to be playing Brawl, and so new elites are going to develop, and in turn they'll develop new techniques and mind-games and all that fun ****.

And DoA just sucks in general, it's pretty much just an eye-candy fest.

 

[WastingPenguins]

No, I don't think you understand.

I'm not going to just repeat Yuna's first post, so I really suggest you read it. Basically, the community is not new to Smash games anymore. They've found out a couple of things, but really for the most part it's things that have been removed. I seriously doubt that that much more will be found out in the next year or two.

Basically. Anyone who thinks there were crack squads of experienced Smash vets breaking their thumbs looking for new techniques in Melee as soon as that game was released is just... well. Wrong.

 

[Gindler]

Well alot of the Pros don't seem to like it because now they actually have to run (my goodness!!!) rather than wavedash, and chaingrabbing seems to be out the window (yoshi couldn't do it anyway). But hopefully some people can suck it up and learn to play the new game. and the pro scene won't be as elite as the melee one for at least a year till the noobs are rooted out anyway.

 

[Kev$]

Seriously. The people who were "somebodies" in melee are now "nobodies" in brawl.

I beg to differ, the biggest example of a player adapting to a new game and still remained someone. Of course it is Isai.....

There is no way, that someone can stop playing such as Ken, and somehow win Evo....

Behind all the Technical Skill and Mind games, comes Natural Talent...

something we ALL don't have.

 

[PhoenixWiight]

ATs for the loss

 

[OrlanduEX]

I'm saying that the Brawl scene has nothing to do with the Melee vets.

This is not true.

I think what many people need to realize is that BRAWL IS MELEE 2.0.

In the transition from Smash 64 to Melee, Nintendo took the idea of Smash and reinvented it completely. Being good at Smash 64 has almost nothing to do with how good you are in Melee essentially.

But the transition from Melee to Brawl is a different case. I think it should be obvious to any reasonable person that the Brawl development team took Melee and edted it rather than making something completely new like the Melee team did. The core elements of Brawl are very similar to Melee, and don't mean that just because both games involve smashing your opponent offscreen. I mean that all the basic mechanics in Melee like DI, teching, short hop, side dodge, smash charging, meteor canceling and such constitute the majority of the basic mechanics in Brawl. All we got in the way of new mechanics in Brawl is more floatiness and stale move strength reduction. Many of the characters got rebalanced as well, but they all play pretty similarly to how they did before. They just feel a little different now. Basically, if you knew how to play Melee well, you have a great advantage over n00bs to the series going into Brawl.

PLEASE don't think that the years of experience that so many players have devoted to Melee will suddenly count for nothing in Brawl. Brawl is not different enough from Melee for that to be the case.

 

[Catfish_Mike]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Being good at Melee is obviously going to carry over, that's not the argument. A lot of the Melee veterans seem like they would rather play that game and leave Brawl to "teh OMG n00bzorsLOL". And that's fine. But Brawl is going to continue to develop competitively regardless of their participation. How many people regularly attended Melee tournaments? Was it a significant fraction of the six million people who owned the game? I don't think so. A lot of people are going to be playing Brawl, and with the online component they're going to have a lot of competition. The good players will eventually gravitate toward one another and develop strategies and techs and all the other stuff that popped up in Melee once the scene got moving. Like I said, the Melee veterans aren't the final word on what Brawl will develop into. If you don't want to come along for the ride, by all means, move aside and let the rest of us shine.

 

[Yuna]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Being good at Melee is obviously going to carry over, that's not the argument. A lot of the Melee veterans seem like they would rather play that game and leave Brawl to "teh OMG n00bzorsLOL". And that's fine. But Brawl is going to continue to develop competitively regardless of their participation. How many people regularly attended Melee tournaments? Was it a significant fraction of the six million people who owned the game? I don't think so. A lot of people are going to be playing Brawl, and with the online component they're going to have a lot of competition. The good players will eventually gravitate toward one another and develop strategies and techs and all the other stuff that popped up in Melee once the scene got moving. Like I said, the Melee veterans aren't the final word on what Brawl will develop into. If you don't want to come along for the ride, by all means, move aside and let the rest of us shine.

You're arguing as if someone's denied any of what you're saying.

No one's leaving Brawl to the "n00bzors". We're leaving to those who wish to play it instead of Melee. It's their choice. I could really care less.

The Competitive Smash Scene is formed by the Competitive Players. If a majority of players prefer Brawl, then we'll switch to Brawl. If not, we'll stick with Melee.

Yes, there will still be the scene of players developing strategies and techniques in Brawl should the competitive scene prefer Melee. But will they be able to or even want to host competitive tournaments on the scale of Melee-tournaments today and in the future? And why does it even matter?!

What does it matter to you if I choose not to play Brawl unless I have no choice? I've never once complained about the fact that you've opted for Brawl. Why are you so obsessed about the fact that I (and others) choose Melee?

 

[shadydentist]

The fact that the finals of the Mass. Nintendo Brawl tournament consisted of two very good melee players (DA Comp and KoreanDJ) suggests that many good players will, in fact, move on to Brawl, and will continue to be good.

 

[Plairnkk]

The fact that the finals of the Mass. Nintendo Brawl tournament consisted of two very good melee players (DA Comp and KoreanDJ) suggests that many good players will, in fact, move on to Brawl, and will continue to be good.

And azen and m2k won the tournament at chus. Realize, though, DA already as the game. Azen already has the game. M2k already has the game. The game hasnt even been released so you can't really pin this on anything more than experience at this point (not saying they may not have won otherwise, though.) You can also base it on their overall ability to space and camp, as that's what brawl is.

Bottom line is brawl is not a good competitive game thus far, and it may never be. The difference between n64-->melee and melee--> brawl is that n64--> melee they looked to expand play by (adding wavedashing, DI, teching, etc) whereas into brawl they looked to simplify it (removing wavedashing, teching, dashdancing, and making people floatier to take away combos and float back to the ledge, while adding in auto-sweetspot and ledge-grab lag to make everything easier).

They saw the demand of the newbs for brawl to be newb-friendly and they did it, are you all happy now? (it seems so)

 

[EmperorCesar]

To start off! Most competitive people are disappointed with Brawl ATM due to lack of technical skills! RIGHT?

What a lot of people don't realize is the fact it takes time for things to be found to make the game more technical! It took MANY years for a lot of things to be founded in melee and not a single month. May i add the fact that only japan and not many U.S. people own the game. So how can you just be like it's garbage no more wavedash or L-cancel! There is new things that i have seen already that is technical. It's gonna take a while but it will be more technical as the months/years go on and more competitive!

So it seems to me that the people that were the top players in the world are disappointed in the clean slate and the ones that were competitive but not among the top what so ever are happier and ya i understand....just a thought because i heard some people already are gonna quit playing due to this and that it BLASPHEMY!

P.S. - No hate replies please but serious ones

Lock this trash.

 

[Wife]

And azen and m2k won the tournament at chus. Realize, though, DA already as the game. Azen already has the game. M2k already has the game. The game hasnt even been released so you can't really pin this on anything more than experience at this point (not saying they may not have won otherwise, though.) You can also base it on their overall ability to space and camp, as that's what brawl is.

Bottom line is brawl is not a good competitive game thus far, and it may never be. The difference between n64-->melee and melee--> brawl is that n64--> melee they looked to expand play by (adding wavedashing, DI, teching, etc) whereas into brawl they looked to simplify it (removing wavedashing, teching, dashdancing, and making people floatier to take away combos and float back to the ledge, while adding in auto-sweetspot and ledge-grab lag to make everything easier).

They saw the demand of the newbs for brawl to be newb-friendly and they did it, are you all happy now? (it seems so)

Love this post, Plank. Spot on.

 

[JonFelton]

Ok 1st post for me. I browse the forums alot though.

1st and foremost I have to say that BRAWL WILL BE COMPETITIVE.

-For the simple reason that it is a super smash bros. game, smash warrants competitive play because of how different it is from other fighting games. It will always be competitive due to the fact that nothing is really guaranteed in smash. There is no life bar that,if depleted, kills you. You can't just press buttons and hope to win like in some fighting games because in smash the stages are huge and you have to approach. Also one of the things that makes smash very competitive, i believe, is the LACK of definite combos. Winners are determined by mindgames and spacing rather than how fast he presses his buttons. etc. etc. Mindgames, spacing, and timing separate noobs from pros in smash.

-Advanced Techs are not what make smash competitive. They can aid in the mindgames but they ultimatley do not make smash competitive. The reasons I stated above are what make smash competitive.

-Its the newest version of smash so yeah . . . . its shiny. People are gonna play it.

-It has wifi allowing more possible matchups.

Whether it will be as competitive as melee is a different story. I, for one, will play Brawl and most likely play it competitively. I don't really want to stick with melee that much, cuz I just don't want to. If the majority of smashboards competitive players decides to stick with melee, which I doubt, then so be it. The way I see it, the Brawl Scene will form on its own because it has too much hype not to. Whether or not the current melee masters choose to master brawl is irrelevant, because if they don't then someone else will.

 

[Koga]

One thing:

Technical(in a melee sense)=/= Competative

 

[Catfish_Mike]

You're arguing as if someone's denied any of what you're saying.

Go look at page two of the thread, 180OP and Balloon's posts. Look around the forum sometime. A lot of players are saying Brawl will not be competitive.

No one's leaving Brawl to the "n00bzors". We're leaving to those who wish to play it instead of Melee. It's their choice. I could really care less.

The Competitive Smash Scene is formed by the Competitive Players. If a majority of players prefer Brawl, then we'll switch to Brawl. If not, we'll stick with Melee.

The current Smash scene is formed by Melee players. Whatever community develops around Brawl will be centered on the great Brawl players. Don't assume because you played a part in what exists now that you'll have any role in what's to come. Brawl will have a lot more penetration than Melee because of WiFi. It stands to reason that a lot more elite players will emerge now.

Yes, there will still be the scene of players developing strategies and techniques in Brawl should the competitive scene prefer Melee. But will they be able to or even want to host competitive tournaments on the scale of Melee-tournaments today and in the future? And why does it even matter?!

Would you have ever believed that a competitive scene could develop around Melee? People still brush it off to this day as "just a kids game", when it's so much more. I have no doubt that Brawl will have "Melee-scale" tournaments. As for why it matters, shouldn't that be obvious? The more successful the game is the more recognition gaming will receive as a legitimate "sport"(I use the term loosely). Who wouldn't want that?

What does it matter to you if I choose not to play Brawl unless I have no choice? I've never once complained about the fact that you've opted for Brawl. Why are you so obsessed about the fact that I (and others) choose Melee?

Why are you so obsessed with getting offended when I've given no offense? I don't care if you or any other competitive Melee player chooses Brawl or not. It means nothing to me. I'll say it as many times as I have to; the Brawl community will develop regardless of what the Melee veterans choose to do.

 

[mthegreatone]

even if advanced defensive skills were completely removed from Brawl it would still be competitive anyway seeing how essentially you need to bring your A-game from an offensive standpoint.

makes me wonder how a Smash game would play out if developers took out shielding altogether LOL

 

[Devotion]

And azen and m2k won the tournament at chus. Realize, though, DA already as the game. Azen already has the game. M2k already has the game. The game hasnt even been released so you can't really pin this on anything more than experience at this point (not saying they may not have won otherwise, though.) You can also base it on their overall ability to space and camp, as that's what brawl is.

Bottom line is brawl is not a good competitive game thus far, and it may never be. The difference between n64-->melee and melee--> brawl is that n64--> melee they looked to expand play by (adding wavedashing, DI, teching, etc) whereas into brawl they looked to simplify it (removing wavedashing, teching, dashdancing, and making people floatier to take away combos and float back to the ledge, while adding in auto-sweetspot and ledge-grab lag to make everything easier).

They saw the demand of the newbs for brawl to be newb-friendly and they did it, are you all happy now? (it seems so)

Uh I could swear teching is still in brawl and I don't think they purposely added in wavedashing in melee.

 

[MoldinMindz]

Brawl will be fun because it requires you to fight without abusing glitches in the game. Nintendo didn't intend for wave dashing or chain grabbing, they were just glitches in the physics engine. The last few years of playing melee became very repetitive for me because it was all about picking the same best characters and abusing the same physics glitches.

 

[Libomasus]

Brawl will be fun because it requires you to fight without abusing glitches in the game. Nintendo didn't intend for wave dashing or chain grabbing, they were just glitches in the physics engine. The last few years of playing melee became very repetitive for me because it was all about picking the same best characters and abusing the same physics glitches.

Its not about a technique looking aesthetically different, its about its uses. The same physics glitches? Wavedashing is the only one, and you can't handle seeing that one animation? Okay, thats fine, but thats kind of narrow-minded. How about thinking of how many different ways it can be used. Like-desyncing, it opens up a whole bunch of new possibilities that are still being discovered today. So no, its not about picking the same best characters and "abusing" the same "glitches."

 

[What's The Point]

So no, its not about picking the same best characters and "abusing" the same "glitches."

It is.

As it will be in Brawl.

That's how it is in all competitive play.

 

[Doctor T]

Well, completely disregarding the topic-starter's post, I agree with the topic title. Except I don't think it will take long at all for Brawl to mostly replace Melee altogether. This should be a much easier transition than the one from Smash64 to Melee, for most of us at least.

But really, theres no way we'll be able to tell until the game has been released for a while.

 

[bayonettrials]

Why did it take years for some things to be found? Because they were well hidden. In a game where Sakurai went to great lengths to make everything simple to do, do you really think he'd include really obscure techniques that can't be found even after a month of testing?

The only things left should be glitches.

And why did it take us years? Because back then, we weren't very technical (or rather, "they" weren't as I wasn't around for the first couple of years). SSB64 was not an AT-fest. People weren't used to ATs and therefore didn't actively look for them.

They didn't know what to look for and how to look for them. Now we do.

Oh lawd, is that sum trollin?!

 

[Doctor T]

Oh lawd, is that sum trollin?!

No... that would be YOUR post.

 

[MoldinMindz]

My point is that with the absence of certain glitches that heavily favor a few characters, the game could become more competitive because more characters would have a real chance of winning a match. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed playing competitive melee, but the problem with console games is you cannot patch imbalances. For exampple, I played competitive starcraft and warcraft 3 and once a group of people would abuse a strat., blizzard would patch the game so the strat didn't work. I think in essence that's what sakurai did, he made all the annoying moves less powerful. ie. fox upkicks, chain grabs, sheiks fair, falcon knee, marth combos... i could go on....

 

[RenX]

First off my spelling and grammer sucks

Advanced Techs are nice and ALL but seriously your all going to convert at one point or another
and if anyone in the Yorba linda area that thinks ATs are the SHIZ go to

GameStop #4992
Anaheim Hills Festiv
8126 SANTA ANA CANYON RD
ANAHEIM HILLS CA, 92808 US
(714)974-7290
Mon-Sat 10am-9pm, Sun 12pm-6pm*

Ask to play Jorden in smash
GAREN****ING T YOU he might not beat you the first time but he will in fact beat you and he uses NO ATS NONE not even L canceling so have fun Prove to me that ATs are the Competitive part of this game and that they add depth ect ect.

Brawl will take over and that is that its all the basics of the game that are everything
so plz go take a falcon punch and die

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

My point is that with the absence of certain glitches that heavily favor a few characters, the game could become more competitive because more characters would have a real chance of winning a match. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed playing competitive melee, but the problem with console games is you cannot patch imbalances. For exampple, I played competitive starcraft and warcraft 3 and once a group of people would abuse a strat., blizzard would patch the game so the strat didn't work. I think in essence that's what sakurai did, he made all the annoying moves less powerful. ie. fox upkicks, chain grabs, sheiks fair, falcon knee, marth combos... i could go on....

Well, nerfing to a certain point is good, but Sakurai sucks at balancing. Nerf Fox' shine and uair and usmash and utilt, and he loses serious KO'ing power. Weaker Fair for shiek? Good! Weaken every aerial and nerf her to infinity? Bad.

Kirby was God tier in SSB, and pretty much the worst character in SSBM. Sakurai has no idea how to nerf characters, in all reality.

Also, what glitches are you talking about that heavily favor a few characters?

If you mean wavedashing, (which wasn't a glitch btw) have you actually looked carefully at the characters? Sheik, C. Falcon, Peach, and Jiggs all have bad wavedashes yet they're high up on the list. Mewtwo has like the third best wavedash in the game yet he is last on the latest tier list (though I think he should move up above Kirby).

Wavedashing most certainly does not break character balance.

 

[LinkNSnake4Main]

To start off! Most competitive people are disappointed with Brawl ATM due to lack of technical skills! RIGHT?

What a lot of people don't realize is the fact it takes time for things to be found to make the game more technical! It took MANY years for a lot of things to be founded in melee and not a single month. May i add the fact that only japan and not many U.S. people own the game. So how can you just be like it's garbage no more wavedash or L-cancel! There is new things that i have seen already that is technical. It's gonna take a while but it will be more technical as the months/years go on and more competitive!

So it seems to me that the people that were the top players in the world are disappointed in the clean slate and the ones that were competitive but not among the top what so ever are happier and ya i understand....just a thought because i heard some people already are gonna quit playing due to this and that it BLASPHEMY!

P.S. - No hate replies please but serious ones

...Try passing English next year.

 

[Libomasus]

It is.

As it will be in Brawl.

That's how it is in all competitive play.

Of course it always is, but that doesn't mean there aren't different ways to use the same technique.

 

[RenX]

Just as expected from you torney kids no respond to me post! get a life kids if you cant face the music

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Just as expected from you torney kids no respond to me post! get a life kids if you cant face the music

Why should anyone reply to a provocative, badly presented, hardly backed up and insulting post? By the way that you attack us like this, I can tell that you're just trolling and there's no point in replying to someone like you.

 

[RenX]

sounds more like excuses to me from you

 

[MoldinMindz]

Correct me if i'm wrong... but Sakurai didn't develop melee... he was busy with some other project, and that's why melee was so much different than ssb64 and brawl was his vision of fixing what he felt were "Errors" in melee

 

[Doctor T]

Just as expected from you torney kids no respond to me post! get a life kids if you cant face the music

You posted in somone else's topic way toward the end, and expected someone to reply within like 15 minutes. You weren't asking a question. You didn't really say anything that important. I could understand if you started your own topic. But you can't expect people to reply to everything you say. Most posts you will make on an active board like this will most likely get overlooked entirely. Really the only reason to get people to respond to you this way is to say something stupid, which is why people are responding now.

By the way... not all of us here are 11 years old. Just so you know.

 

[TwilightSky]

Correct me if i'm wrong... but Sakurai didn't develop melee... he was busy with some other project, and that's why melee was so much different than ssb64 and brawl was his vision of fixing what he felt were "Errors" in melee

Lol I don't think so. I never heard that before.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

sounds more like excuses to me from you

Let's compare our posts once more:

I stated what was wrong with your post and why no one was replying to it, told you that you don't need to continue posting because you're a troll, and what do you do?

You post a sentence that isn't backed up or reasoned in any way whatsoever.

A forum is for debating. If you can't debate or be civil, get out. Trolls not welcome.

 

[Chopperdave77]

Did Melee have a Nintendo sponsered tournement upon release like Brawl does? How about a gamestop tournement? Even if the older players who formed the melee competitive scene years ago leave brawl in the dust, their will me many other players out there to pick up the torch. Adapt or be left behind its your call.

 

[RenX]

How am i suppsota back up a guy that i know that would prolly crush your world? hmmm? he doesnt go to tornements ect ect he doesnt even go here he thinks all of you guys are Ghey so i cant really back it up if you want to find out how melee was suppsota be played go play him and he will beat you and if you dont want to then its just an excuse from you to me

and as for the other guy I am simply trying to state that this is a new game and its not trash like you guys think and why didnt i just say that insted of making a post because its my proof go play him and then tell me AT's SERIOUSLY matter cuz they dont and they dont make a game and if you think that then you shouldnt even be a part of this community

Stab me if im wrong but i thought competeing was about Winning But having to win with exploites ect ect i know your mumbojumbo WD is part of the game ect ect well it was a mistake if you didnt realize IN BRAWL if you want to play a BROKEN game and say its FAIR then go for it but as stated i know a guy who doesnt need YOUR BROKEN crap to beat you