Brawl - the game where no one ever dies?

[Hippochinfat]

aND HOW does living longer take away depth, youkai?

 

[Brawler1432]

Does anyone feel like their idea of balance was "Let's just make it much harder to KO in general"?

"It's just like [...] Titanic, only no one dies."


I mean, first we have the new characters. Almost every single one of them has an Up B with broken range a la Game & Watch and Mewtwo. Then there's Sonic who can move and do anything but another Up B after an Up B (the ultimate level of brokenness).

Then, there's the new airdodge. Enemy coming at you with an attack? Airdodge and then jump/whatever to get back on the stage.

Then, all of the returning characters received buffed Up Bs. Mario's is denitely longer and Peach's is practically 50% longer. Even Yoshi got a height increase.

And lastly, there's the broken new feature where most Up Bs auto-sweetspot.

According to Gimpyfish, characters seemingly live for much longer now than in Melee. It's almost virtually impossible to KO anyone before the 120%'s. And then there's the added "bonus" och super-freeze-frame to DI (though this is just a side effect).

It would've been a blast to sit in on that meeting where they discussed this. "Hmm... Melee was too broken! People would die at 70% if they got owned through edgeguarding and edgehogging. Let's make it much harder to KO people!"

Wow, close this thread NOW

 

[CHAOSDRAGON88]

@Hippochinfat: Double posting is as bad as using the cstick with peach. Longer matches is a good thing.

 

[Eaode]

@Hippochinfat: Double posting is as bad as using the cstick with peach. Longer matches is a good thing.

*facepalm*

 

[Fearthesmash]

I think the main purpose of changing the damage levels at which people die is part of balancing. Even in Melee power characters were capable of killing at lower percents than speed characters, however it was only 10-15% lower, which constituted maybe 1 attack meaning there was little to no variance of the level at which you could kill(aside shine spiking).

Now with people dying at 120%+ and Extreme power characters like Ike not dying till 200% and killing at 60% there is an actual differential in kill damage to set apart the advantage of speed. being light or a fast faller now also has disadvantages to go with the advantages. Getting knocked off the screen rather than just off the stage MEANS something now, rather than just the ability to get them off the stage.

Lastly, remember length of recovery =/= good recovery, take a look at Ganon. Great horizontal recovery, even the vertical isnt' horrible; but if you can't ledgeguard him there is somethign wrong with you.

 

[El HP]

I agree with some points the lack of wavedash is something terrible I mean why take out such a versatile technique? it added a lot of depth to the game, it also seems that edgeguarding is not as effective as in melee another technique that made the game more interesting.

 

[C.Olimar788]

I like it, personally. The idea of opponents taking a bit longer to kill appeals to me, sense it seemed like in Melee people dropped like flies sometimes, especially computers.

 

[Metal B]

I think the reason for harder KOs is to balance speed and heavy/power characters.
Heavy Characters have to deal with some damage, because its harder for them to doge attacks and (new) they take damage with heavy armor. They really now really like Tanks. But on the other side they dont have much chances to hit there opponet, but if there is a hit than its big damage.
The speed characters othersides are able to doge attacks easierly and they do some quick damage. But like Meta Knight, they dont have much finisher and have to ko there opponets with high damage. Also there sometimes really lightly and get easily koed with low damage.

Now there is the point. Heavy characters need time, becauce they dont hit often. In Melee Speed Characters ownage the heavy or balance ones, becauce they could to damage fast and kill on low damage. Now the Heavy and balance characters got more time to hit there opponets.

Speed Characters win if they can can short the time of matches, because there opponets have not enough time to act.
Heavy Charakters win if the match are long, becauce they can take more damage without getting in danger and just need a few hits to win the match.

There we need the balance =)

 

[Sliq]

Isn't the reason Sonic isn't rendered useless after his up-b so people will actually use it as an attack? This seems like a good thing considering how many up-b's in melee were rarely used when not recovering.

Samus and Link say hi.

The thing that gets me is that edgeguarding appears to be of less importance than in Melee, which is a shame, considering the method for KO'ing someone in Melee spaced it for away from other stamina based fighters.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

Speed Characters win if they can can short the time of matches, because there opponets have not enough time to act.
Heavy Charakters win if the match are long, becauce they can take more damage without getting in danger and just need a few hits to win the match.

Word. Oh, and I'm totally a Sonic main

 

[yoshi_fan]

I don't get the point.

Harder KOs = More fun = More time and more skill to KILL! xd

 

[KratosAurion192]

Oh and one more thing to add to my random post...


You seem to be forgeting another little aspect of smash, your oponent might be harder to KO, but so are you... use that to an advantage :D

 

[flyinfilipino]

Samus and Link say hi.

The thing that gets me is that edgeguarding appears to be of less importance than in Melee, which is a shame, considering the method for KO'ing someone in Melee spaced it for away from other stamina based fighters.

I think there's a little clip somewhere of Sonic doing a roll and off the edge to grab it.

 

[El_Duderino]

Matches lasting longer is fine by me. Bowser getting a boost is ok in my book too, since he really needs it. Most of the heavy hitters were at a disadvantage in Melee, and one of the main benefits of being a heavy hitter, e.g. lasting longer, just wasn't there.

But if you really can't stand longer matches, there is always the option of using the new handicap method anyway. The one where you start off at a certain percentage. That should shorten it up a bit.

 

[Dubyah8r]

Roy's our boy...

If im playing in Hyrule Temple I can already hang around as Roy up to 350%. Thats just gonna be crazy if I can take more.

 

[SolidSonic]

Thats weird. In the gameplay videos I saw plenty of people dying.

Hmmm.......

*scratches head in bewilderment

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Its not neccesarily a buff if EVERYONE dies at higher percents.

1.

Longer fights = more intensity.

2.

More intensity = potentially more fun

3..

Kind of a dumb thing to complain about imo

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Why would you want to kill your opponent easily?

Link's recovering, I run to the edge as Ike, he uses his B-Up, I Counter, he's smacked away and explodes.

*Yawn*

What I would want to see is:

Link's recovering, I run to the edge as Ike, he grapples, jumps up, and Master Sword's my face!

Matches where you win easily are boring, I want a challenge, it makes you feel so much better when you win.

 

[Lemon Drop]

According to Gimpyfish, characters seemingly live for much longer now than in Melee. It's almost virtually impossible to KO anyone before the 120%'s. And then there's the added "bonus" och super-freeze-frame to DI (though this is just a side effect).

It would've been a blast to sit in on that meeting where they discussed this. "Hmm... Melee was too broken! People would die at 70% if they got owned through edgeguarding and edgehogging. Let's make it much harder to KO people!"

Have you played Super SMash Bros. 64? Thats how the original Smash was. Brawl is going back to its roots.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Why would you want to kill your opponent easily?

Link's recovering, I run to the edge as Ike, he uses his B-Up, I Counter, he's smacked away and explodes.

*Yawn*

What I would want to see is:

Link's recovering, I run to the edge as Ike, he grapples, jumps up, and Master Sword's my face!

Matches where you win easily are boring, I want a challenge, it makes you feel so much better when you win.

For once, I agree with you 100%

 

[Metal B]

Thats weird. In the gameplay videos I saw plenty of people dying.

Hmmm.......

*scratches head in bewilderment

Items and Ultra-Smashes =)

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

You just don't get it, do you? There's still things such as floatiness and weight in the game. Different characters require different levels of damage to get KO:ed by the exact same attack.

By generally raising the bar for KO:ing, the characters who live longer will gain a much greater advantage.

For example, let's say that MetaKnights Fsmash would KO Peach at 120% in Melee and Bowser at 135%. In Brawl, you need 1.3 as much damage as in Melee in order to KO, so the same attack would KO Peach at 156% and Bowser at 175,5%. Instead of just a difference of 15%, it's now a difference of 19,5% and that's just a random example.

As for the Footstool Jump, have you read how it works? Not that good.

The footstool jump doesn't work? I got killed at 0% with a footstool jump, and I was Meta Knight. >_>

But Yuna, you are blowing this situation out of proportion. Because characters live for a longer time doesn't mean that the game is imbalanced character wise, it's possible that the KO cealings for some stages have been expanded. The greatest example would be BattleField. More than often I would witness characters falling down off the stage and dying late. Alot of characters also took some time to recover horizontally on stages such as Lylat Cruise, but the verticle kill percentage rates were lower than those of battlefield by 30%.

I remember being hit by Ike's U-smash at 68% on Yoshi Story and gettinf KO'd. But on Battle Field I didn't get KO'd by Ike's U-smash until the 90% mark. I theorized that there may be percentage barriers in Brawl that don't alow you to Vertically KO at X percentages (I can assume that 50% would be the minimal).

Also, the characters in Brawl have become more balanced. Speed characters and power characters now hav the ability to work with their distinct advantages. To name a specific character; Sonic, who wasn't able to get kills till around the 100% mark. Characters such as Bowser were able to kill around the 80% mark.

Brawl has eveolved into a different game. Take into consideration that this is not Melee, and viewing it from that perspective is invalid.

Melee is not Brawl. Brawl is far more balanced.

 

[A New England Winter]

The footstool jump doesn't work? I got killed at 0% with a footstool jump, and I was Meta Knight. >_> :D

But Yuna, you are blowing this situation out of proportion. Because characters live for a longer time doesn't mean that the game is imbalanced character wise, it's possible that the KO ceilings for some stages have been expanded. The greatest example would be Battle Field. More than often I would witness characters falling down off the stage and dying late. Alot of characters also took some time to recover horizontally on stages such as Lylat Cruise, but the vertical kill percentage rates were lower than those of battlefield by 30%.

I remember being hit by Ike's U-smash at 68% on Yoshi Story and gettinf KO'd. But on Battle Field I didn't get KO'd by Ike's U-smash until the 90% mark. I theorized that there may be percentage barriers in Brawl that don't alow you to Vertically KO at X percentages (I can assume that 50% would be the minimal).

Also, the characters in Brawl have become more balanced. Speed characters and power characters now have the ability to work with their distinct advantages. To name a specific character; Sonic, who wasn't able to get kills till around the 100% mark. Characters such as Bowser were able to kill around the 80% mark.

Brawl has evolved into a different game. Take into consideration that this is not Melee, and viewing it from that perspective is invalid.

Melee is not Brawl. Brawl is far more balanced.

This man is your FRIEND. He fights for FREEDOM.

 

[Psydon]

*deep breath*

I've returned.

Comments will be made later. BTW, EpF = QFT.

 

[VanillaMummy]

The footstool jump doesn't work? I got killed at 0% with a footstool jump, and I was Meta Knight. >_>

But Yuna, you are blowing this situation out of proportion. Because characters live for a longer time doesn't mean that the game is imbalanced character wise, it's possible that the KO cealings for some stages have been expanded. The greatest example would be BattleField. More than often I would witness characters falling down off the stage and dying late. Alot of characters also took some time to recover horizontally on stages such as Lylat Cruise, but the verticle kill percentage rates were lower than those of battlefield by 30%.

I remember being hit by Ike's U-smash at 68% on Yoshi Story and gettinf KO'd. But on Battle Field I didn't get KO'd by Ike's U-smash until the 90% mark. I theorized that there may be percentage barriers in Brawl that don't alow you to Vertically KO at X percentages (I can assume that 50% would be the minimal).

Also, the characters in Brawl have become more balanced. Speed characters and power characters now hav the ability to work with their distinct advantages. To name a specific character; Sonic, who wasn't able to get kills till around the 100% mark. Characters such as Bowser were able to kill around the 80% mark.

Brawl has eveolved into a different game. Take into consideration that this is not Melee, and viewing it from that perspective is invalid.

Melee is not Brawl. Brawl is far more balanced.

That is why I <3 EPF.

/topic

 

[KratosAurion192]

I think we scared Yuna off.... I havn't seen him post :D

 

[Psydon]

Because I laugh at you love you so, Yuna, I'm going to reply to at least one post from every page here. At the same time.

Edit: That's not actually true.

I agree with some points the lack of wavedash is something terrible I mean why take out such a versatile technique? it added a lot of depth to the game, it also seems that edgeguarding is not as effective as in melee another technique that made the game more interesting.

Why take out wavedashing? Because they want to. They want to deliver a new experience from Melee. As for the effectiveness of edgeguarding, you're absolutely right. But, as I've said so many times, this only serves to make the game harder, not easier, because the edgeguarding player will have to work that much harder to ensure his/her opponent stays dead.

Not to say that Yuna is right, though. We've seen plenty of examples of people dying; it won't be nearly as much of a challenge as he thinks. We still have killing off the top, spiking and horizontal killing, and we can still edgeguard effectively.

So somebody sweetspots a Up+B. Who cares? If they jump from the ledge, go with them and nair them back out of the stage. If they edgehop attack, shieldgrab them back out. Or, if you really wanna stop them, chase them off and whack them out of their recovery zone.

Look at Link and Mario. Their recovery distance is terrible; it doesn't take much to put them in a position where they can't do anything to recover, especially Mario.

Metaknight, who officially has the best recovery in the game (of all confirmed characters), is a light, short-range character. Smack him!

I think the main purpose of changing the damage levels at which people die is part of balancing. Even in Melee power characters were capable of killing at lower percents than speed characters, however it was only 10-15% lower, which constituted maybe 1 attack meaning there was little to no variance of the level at which you could kill(aside shine spiking).

Now with people dying at 120%+ and Extreme power characters like Ike not dying till 200% and killing at 60% there is an actual differential in kill damage to set apart the advantage of speed. being light or a fast faller now also has disadvantages to go with the advantages. Getting knocked off the screen rather than just off the stage MEANS something now, rather than just the ability to get them off the stage.

Lastly, remember length of recovery =/= good recovery, take a look at Ganon. Great horizontal recovery, even the vertical isnt' horrible; but if you can't ledgeguard him there is somethign wrong with you.

QFT.

Items and Ultra-Smashes =)

Don't forget Mario's magical Up+B, which can now KO people at 10%.

If im playing in Hyrule Temple I can already hang around as Roy up to 350%. Thats just gonna be crazy if I can take more.

Who do you play with? XD

 

[MilesPrower]

Why would you want to kill your opponent easily?

Link's recovering, I run to the edge as Ike, he uses his B-Up, I Counter, he's smacked away and explodes.

*Yawn*

What I would want to see is:

Link's recovering, I run to the edge as Ike, he grapples, jumps up, and Master Sword's my face!

Matches where you win easily are boring, I want a challenge, it makes you feel so much better when you win.

yeah I agree with you too I'm tired of all these fun but no challenge games I want something that has some hard as heck challenges. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!

Now I know how a meatball feels.




But anyway, I'd probably just say what most people have already said.... How can you judge a game that only a handful of people got to play, and for only 3 days?

Brawl will be just fine, and like someone else said, when I get up to about 130%... I start to play better, cuz I could die any second. I love that feeling. =D

 

[SamusPoop]

I liked melee, a lot...I'd have been...happier if this was just melee v2, with online mode and rankings and everything I wanted it to be ._.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

^I sure hope that's sarcasm... because otherwise that would be epic fail and lose.

 

[Digital Angel]

Longer matches leave more room for error so if anything it's helping make the game more skill intensive.

 

[maxieman]

JUMPMAN

lol spam

 

[Darkurai]

Oh my god! Matcthes that are longer! This is a terrible tragedy!

 

[skeletim]

The thing is that in Melee, you already could survive 'til high %s. On Final Destionation, as Peach, you rarely die below 150% unless hit by one of the Big Ones like a Marth-Tipper, Fox U-smash, etc. Living even longer will only make it boring.

enjoy playing Melee for 1 min. 25 second matches with fox on final destination then while the rest of us enjoy Brawl.

 

[Mattnumbers]

UpB: spring. As already demonstrated, sonic goes way high, and the sping lasts for a significant bit when used on the ground (however, unlike in sonic games, it must be jumped on to be activated and cannot simply be run into (I think)). Sonic gains control very quickly (sometime before the apex), and can perform any a move. He can also perform airdodges. He definitely cannot perform another upb but I'm not certain whether he can perform his other bmoves. It does hit in the initial ascent, but doesn't knock back at all. Nonetheless I've opened a smash ball with this move. If used in air the spring goes tumbling down and bop people. It doesn't deal significant damage or any knockback but is a great way to annoy people. Sonic will not snap to the ledge as he passes it, unlike many characters upbs now.

that is the report of what sonics upb does from the person who signed up to figure stuff out about him.

See? sonics upb isn't that good, its not in that quote but its been said that sonic moves very slow in the air, making it even easier to counter/ edgeguard
________
portable vaporizer

 

[Lightning Ice]

Not being able to sweetspot the edge with such a vertical move can make Sonic's Up B easy to edgeguard as well.

 

[Shadic]

Don't forget Mario's magical Up+B, which can now KO people at 10%.

Wait.. What?

 

[Yuna]

By the way. I'm not saying that "harder to KO = automatically bad". I'm saying that it just doesn't work that well in this case because of how it was carried out and how funny I think that it's their idea of generally balancing the game.

Sigh . . . You're not good at reading comprehension, are you? You adressed everything a moderator on a video game forums already knows.

Mic talked as if it wasn't a lot harder to kill Bowser than Peach. While it was a lot easier to edgeguard him, killing him just like that (with the move itself) was much harder.

Meta Knight?

Sigh . . . Actually, I'm just going to leave now. This is obviously pointless.

So we have a small number of characters which have alternates. Peach had the float in SSBM. Doesn't mean all or the majority have the same options.

Second, unless you have played the demo I would hesitate before calling any of the new features "broken." This is an entirely new game, so its possible to add new features like auto-sweet spotting and multiple air dodging while still keeping all the characters equally balanced.

Third, what was shown at E4ALL was not the final game - just a demo. The final product will likely see some drastic changes before hitting store shelves. All I'm saying is that it is much too early to pass judgement.

People just love to say "This is just a demo". They've been saying it for over a year about crap like the ultra-freeze-frame-**** now. Just because something is stupid does not mean it'll be gone in the final version. A lot of stupid stuff gets overlooked, even by companies which make some of the big fighters like Tekken and Street Fighter.

And SSBB has stayed pretty much the same since the very first trailer. Nothing's changed as far as we know. And it's not that reliable to think that they'll change stuff before release. They weren't smart enough to not include it in the first place, after all.

Isn't the reason Sonic isn't rendered useless after his up-b so people will actually use it as an attack? This seems like a good thing considering how many up-b's in melee were rarely used when not recovering.

As opposed to anyone else whose Up B isn't a multi-attack move (rendering edgehogging useless) or has zero lag on landing (+ good priority)?

You're comparing smash brothers to any other fighting game.... WTF? The only game like smash brothers is.... well... the other smash brothers....

Using an example to show genereally lowering the knockback output will only make the differences between the Hard to KOs and Easy to KOs even greater.

Exactly, it doesn't stay in the air, but have you seen the air he gets with it? he would be a sitting duck, part of it being balanced is still giving him the chance to defend himself...

Almost everyone is a sitting duck after their Up Bs. Why not just give his move attack frames and be done with it?

You want to get into weight and floatiness but then you don't want to talk about start-up lag and the ability to hit? Meta knight can potentially combo bowser A LOT better than he can peach, giving him to ability to get Bowser to 175 a lot faster than peach to 156. There is A LOT to consider about the game (a lot isn't known yet) before making any kind of assumption about being broken.

Ummm what? When did I "not want to talk about start-up lag and the ability to hit"? And who are these people who've "discovered" that Bowser's a lot easier to combo than Peach? It must just be that Bowser's generally a lot easier to combo (because of a bad jumpout, bad hitstun, whatever) because unless Meta-Knight has a shine-like move, there's no reason why it'd be easier.

1. going after a mod? no no...
2. bowser hard to KO? harder than peach? So again you overlook COMPLETLY how easy it is to be combo'd among other things...
3. Melee did have aerial combat, brawl is attempting (and by buffing all of the recoveries effectivly doing so) making it better and more common. You also seem to miss that this also means you can actually go out and off the stage and attack as well (oh look! More air games!)
4. as far as I know Sonic is the only one allowed to attack out of his upB....
5. If you only know of two ways to recover with your character you have a lot of work to do...

1) The mod addressed me first and I responded. It's called, um, replying.
2) The topic at hand is "How hard is it to KO someone", not "How hard is it to combo someone".
3) Brawl is buffing aerial edgeguarding, not aerial combat. Both parties have to actually be, you know, combating, in order for it to be an actual combat.
4) Which is why Sonic being able to do is broken because he's got something no one else (except Jiggz, whose Up B is useless for recovery, and Yoshi, whose Up B is almost equally useless) has. Read the original post again.
5) Pray tell, besides a handful of characters who have an extra option or two, what options do the general populus have besides Up B and jumping? Certain Side Bs like Luigi Missile is limited to that handful of characters and a lot of moves that give you some extra distance won't give you enough distance to make it back (like Marths Side B). The general populus only has Up B and double jumping (especially in Brawl, where you no longer have directional airdodge).

You're thread is based off a very biased opinion. NOTHING in this thread can be proven (what I said and others included) because the game's not out. You know NOTHING of the game just like the rest of us so stop trying to interpret info you don't have...

We have the trailers and the beta. If we can't criticize the game for stuff in the beta, can we praise it? Can we talk about anything at all? I'm so sick and tired of people saying "This isn't the final game! Why are you complaining?!". Then why are we talking about the game whatsoever?! Quick, close down the boards! The game's not out, after all. You can't prove Sonic's gonna be in the final version!

It depends, I do think Direction Influence is still possible in it, perhaps in the video, the player had the missile hit slightly upward...But to me it seems no different from Melee, except for Bowser is Bowser not easier to kill then peach

No, Pikachu's downsmash really does eat away your shield just as badly or even worse than Peach's in Melee, hit your feet below your shield, do a good deal of damage and kill you vertically at 90%-ish.

I think the reason for harder KOs is to balance speed and heavy/power characters.
Heavy Characters have to deal with some damage, because its harder for them to doge attacks and (new) they take damage with heavy armor.

Umm... whut? Do you mean Super Armor? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they say that while using Super Armor, you take no damage?

They really now really like Tanks. But on the other side they dont have much chances to hit there opponet, but if there is a hit than its big damage.

No, just being heavy/a power characters does in no way mean you'll have a hard time hitting your opponents. Being a slow character does that to you.

Now there is the point. Heavy characters need time, becauce they dont hit often. In Melee Speed Characters ownage the heavy or balance ones, becauce they could to damage fast and kill on low damage. Now the Heavy and balance characters got more time to hit there opponets.

So instead of just balancing the game by making it so that the characters with good comboability and finishers are less broken, the solution is to make it generally harder to KO? What about those characters who were fast, good at KO:ing and lived for a very long time? As I said, making it generally harder to KO will make the gaps even greater. It's not generally balancing the game in favour in those who are slow. They still have to deal with speedy characters zig zagging between their legs.

Its not neccesarily a buff if EVERYONE dies at higher percents.

You're not getting it.

It's not like it's "Everyone dies at 20% higher damages". It's "The knockback has been reduced by % percents", meaning that those who survived 'til ridiculous percentages will survive 'til much more ridiculous percentages compared to those who died at not-so-ridiculous percentages now. The difference will be much greater.

Eternal phoenix Fire[/URL]]Also, the characters in Brawl have become more balanced. Speed characters and power characters now hav the ability to work with their distinct advantages. To name a specific character; Sonic, who wasn't able to get kills till around the 100% mark. Characters such as Bowser were able to kill around the 80% mark.

And this differs from Melee how? The only fast character in Melee that could KO (and by that I mean get off a clean kill, not "Throw off the stage and edgeguard you to death") you at below 100% was Fox and only against really light characters on smaller stages, anyway.

Bowser was also able to kill at around the 80% mark (character-dependant). Ike happens to be slower and more powerful than Bowser.

Not being able to sweetspot the edge with such a vertical move can make Sonic's Up B easy to edgeguard as well.

It just means that you have to be smart. Either sweetspot perfect, or if you think they're gonna edgehog/after edgehogging, don't sweetspot, knock their *** off the ledge, double jump back to safety. However, the inability to auto-sweetspot does detract a lot.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Umm... whut? Do you mean Super Armor? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they say that while using Super Armor, you take no damage?

I'm in a rush, but I'll just post this:

He’s not really invincible—he still takes damage. But he won’t flinch in the slightest.

I think Gimpy said that when they did it, they actually took no damage at all, but that's probably just a glitch that they'll remove before the final version. Like that one where Link when from 49% to 999%.

 

[Mic_128]

By the way. I'm not saying that "harder to KO = automatically bad". I'm saying that it just doesn't work that well in this case because of how it was carried out and how funny I think that it's their idea of generally balancing the game.

How is it bad "just doesn't work"?

Mic talked as if it wasn't a lot harder to kill Bowser than Peach. While it was a lot easier to edgeguard him, killing him just like that (with the move itself) was much harder.

Maybe you've played better Bowsers/Worse Peach's than me. I don't find her a lot easier to kill, except for some vertical moves.

So we have a small number of characters which have alternates. Peach had the float in SSBM. Doesn't mean all or the majority have the same options.

Exactly. So Sonic could very well be the only one with the "stuff after up-b's" then.

People just love to say "This is just a demo". They've been saying it for over a year about crap like the ultra-freeze-frame-**** now.

Just for the record to whomever it concerns, the "freeze-frame" stuff was in PAL Melee. It's no big deal.

Using an example to show genereally lowering the knockback output will only make the differences between the Hard to KOs and Easy to KOs even greater.

Which is why some lighter characters have better recoveries, like Sonics.

Almost everyone is a sitting duck after their Up Bs. Why not just give his move attack frames and be done with it?

Because that would be boring. If we use that logic, Almost everyone has a melee special, a projectile special and a reflecting one. Why not make them all the same attack and be done with it?

3) Brawl is buffing aerial edgeguarding, not aerial combat. Both parties have to actually be, you know, combating, in order for it to be an actual combat.

I would have thought being able to attack after dodging an increase in airial combat skills.

4) Which is why Sonic being able to do is broken because he's got something no one else (except Jiggz, whose Up B is useless for recovery, and Yoshi, whose Up B is almost equally useless) has.

Which is why Rest is broken, Sing is broken, DK's headbut is broken (Smash someone stuck into the ground, holy hell!) but, oh wait, it really isn't once we have a large group of people play for a lot longer than a few short matches to work things out. There is no way ANYTHING can be said to be broken in Brawl's current position.

We have the trailers and the beta.

We do? Pass me a copy! Oh wait, no we don't, we had about 3 days with a version of the game that had a very reduced number of playable characters, small stage choices, 2 minute matches and unwieldy controller options.

We do NOT "have the beta"

If we can't criticize the game for stuff in the beta, can we praise it?

Critisize is all you want, but from what we've seen and know, it's not broken.

Umm... whut? Do you mean Super Armor? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they say that while using Super Armor, you take no damage?

No, you just don't flinch, like Gigabowser.

So instead of just balancing the game by making it so that the characters with good comboability and finishers are less broken, the solution is to make it generally harder to KO? What about those characters who were fast, good at KO:ing and lived for a very long time? [/quote]



We'll have to wait til it's released and find out.