Brawl - the game where no one ever dies?

[Yuna]

Does anyone feel like their idea of balance was "Let's just make it much harder to KO in general"?

"It's just like [...] Titanic, only no one dies."


I mean, first we have the new characters. Almost every single one of them has an Up B with broken range a la Game & Watch and Mewtwo. Then there's Sonic who can move and do anything but another Up B after an Up B (the ultimate level of brokenness).

Then, there's the new airdodge. Enemy coming at you with an attack? Airdodge and then jump/whatever to get back on the stage.

Then, all of the returning characters received buffed Up Bs. Mario's is denitely longer and Peach's is practically 50% longer. Even Yoshi got a height increase.

And lastly, there's the broken new feature where most Up Bs auto-sweetspot.

According to Gimpyfish, characters seemingly live for much longer now than in Melee. It's almost virtually impossible to KO anyone before the 120%'s. And then there's the added "bonus" och super-freeze-frame to DI (though this is just a side effect).

It would've been a blast to sit in on that meeting where they discussed this. "Hmm... Melee was too broken! People would die at 70% if they got owned through edgeguarding and edgehogging. Let's make it much harder to KO people!"

 

[Yigguth]

So what? Harder to K.O means longer matches. I'm fine with that, the better player will still come out victorious in the end

 

[error_alt_delete]

I think they did this because of the fact that people would die at obsenely low damage percentages. 70% is a common percentage to be at and it made the battles sort of short. the fact was, they wanted to make things like edge hogging and edge guarding vitrualy useless. givving the one knocked off a better survival rate. the balance they wanted comes from the nerfes and buffs.


the reason sonic can attack and what not after his up B is that other people can use his up B against him.(you can use his spring since it stays in place).

 

[Yuna]

So what? Harder to K.O means longer matches. I'm fine with that, the better player will still come out victorious in the end

Actually, making people generally much harder to KO will only serve to make the gaps between the Top Tiers and Low Tiers even more noticable.

I'll make a comparison:
In Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4, characters have different amounts of HP. The more Hp, the longer they live. There are only 4 "Damage Levels". At each Damage Level, HP goes down faster/slower. At DL1 (highest), you lose less life and at DL4, life goes down like crazy.

What's the big difference between DL2 and DL1? In DL1, the characters with the more HP have a much higher chance because while they only have to work marginally harder to KO lower HP characters, people have to work much harder to KO high HP characters.

The harder it is to generally KO, the harder people will have to work to kill really hard to KO characters. And characters will "cheap" moves like semi-spikes, spikes and meteor smashes will gain even greater advantages since while they'll be able to KO people at lower %s, no one else will be able to.

So in effect, the game just got more unbalanced.

 

[Corax The Cold]

harder to KO is good, i was recently playing as Kirby in ssbm and i disliked how i got owned at like 80ish % regularly i'd much rather stay alive till 120 even 150

 

[Yuna]

the reason sonic can attack and what not after his up B is that other people can use his up B against him.(you can use his spring since it stays in place).

Irrelevant. Does the spring stay in place even in the air? You do not Up B when on the ground. That's just stupid... unless it's, like, the only move you can use to finish a combo or something.

If he uses it as a recovery move, no one would use the spring against him (because they'd be busy trying to KO him). To have him be able to move even after using Up B in the air is just broken.

 

[Yigguth]

The harder it is to generally KO, the harder people will have to work to kill really hard to KO characters. And characters will "cheap" moves like semi-spikes, spikes and meteor smashes will gain even greater advantages since while they'll be able to KO people at lower %s, no one else will be able to.

So in effect, the game just got more unbalanced.

It doesn't make a difference if EVERYONE is equally harder to KO. And everyone can meteor smash in brawl with the footstool jump so a lot of the basic necessities are spread evenly among the cast

 

[Corax The Cold]

Actually, making people generally much harder to KO will only serve to make the gaps between the Top Tiers and Low Tiers even more noticable.

I'll make a comparison:
In Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4, characters have different amounts of HP. The more Hp, the longer they live. There are only 4 "Damage Levels". At each Damage Level, HP goes down faster/slower. At DL1 (highest), you lose less life and at DL4, life goes down like crazy.

What's the big difference between DL2 and DL1? In DL1, the characters with the more HP have a much higher chance because while they only have to work marginally harder to KO lower HP characters, people have to work much harder to KO high HP characters.

The harder it is to generally KO, the harder people will have to work to kill really hard to KO characters. And characters will "cheap" moves like semi-spikes, spikes and meteor smashes will gain even greater advantages since while they'll be able to KO people at lower %s, no one else will be able to.

So in effect, the game just got more unbalanced.

now you are just blowing it out of proportion, now its like you are saying "seems like people are harder to ko" "people are much harder to ko" "people are impossible to ko" "in brawl, you cant ko people, all the stages are walled in"

wait till you play the game to see what you think of this feature, you wont be able to tell by speculating on this one

 

[error_alt_delete]

Irrelevant. Does the spring stay in place even in the air? You do not Up B when on the ground. That's just stupid... unless it's, like, the only move you can use to finish a combo or something.

If he uses it as a recovery move, no one would use the spring against him (because they'd be busy trying to KO him). To have him be able to move even after using Up B in the air is just broken.

dont forget the reason may also be that the attack does no damage at all. I dont know if this is true or not but it seems to be the case, since you can launch up to him on the spring without takeing damage. if this is the case, than the ability to attack afterwards doesnt seem all that broken.

also if he cant damage an opponent with this attack and, since it isnt a warp, he will be wide open to edge guarding. making it one of the less useful up B's.

 

[Yuna]

It doesn't make a difference if EVERYONE is equally harder to KO. And everyone can meteor smash in brawl with the footstool jump so a lot of the basic necessities are spread evenly among the cast

You just don't get it, do you? There's still things such as floatiness and weight in the game. Different characters require different levels of damage to get KO:ed by the exact same attack.

By generally raising the bar for KO:ing, the characters who live longer will gain a much greater advantage.

For example, let's say that MetaKnights Fsmash would KO Peach at 120% in Melee and Bowser at 135%. In Brawl, you need 1.3 as much damage as in Melee in order to KO, so the same attack would KO Peach at 156% and Bowser at 175,5%. Instead of just a difference of 15%, it's now a difference of 19,5% and that's just a random example.

As for the Footstool Jump, have you read how it works? Not that good.

 

[Aminar]

I doubt spike spikes will return. Everything will be meteor cancelable, and therefor not all that powerful. And honestly living to higher percentages is fun. It gives a different feeling when anything can kill you, often I find I play my best game at 110-250%. I DI better because I need to, i dodge better because I need to, I combo better because I need to.

 

[Yuna]

dont forget the reason may also be that the attack does no damage at all. I dont know if this is true or not but it seems to be the case, since you can launch up to him on the spring without takeing damage. if this is the case, than the ability to attack afterwards doesnt seem all that broken.

also if he cant damage an opponent with this attack and, since it isnt a warp, he will be wide open to edge guarding. making it one of the less useful up B's.

Easily fixed by actually letting the move have some hitframes during which it is an attack. To allow him the freedom to do anything (except another Up B) after Up B is broken. I think it's one of the auto-sweetspotting Up Bs so if he does it from below the stage, he'll either auto-sweeetspot, or should someone be edgehogging, he'll just go past them and onto the stage.

The only reason why I could imagine him being able to move after Up B would not be broken is that it's apparently a 100% vertical move, making it way too easy to just edgehog.

They could've just made it a really good Up B instead of making the Up B useless, but his options afterwards broken.

 

[Yuna]

I doubt spike spikes will return. Everything will be meteor cancelable, and therefor not all that powerful. And honestly living to higher percentages is fun. It gives a different feeling when anything can kill you, often I find I play my best game at 110-250%. I DI better because I need to, i dodge better because I need to, I combo better because I need to.

The thing is that in Melee, you already could survive 'til high %s. On Final Destionation, as Peach, you rarely die below 150% unless hit by one of the Big Ones like a Marth-Tipper, Fox U-smash, etc. Living even longer will only make it boring.

 

[Yigguth]

By generally raising the bar for KO:ing, the characters who live longer will gain a much greater advantage.

It makes no difference at all if it's harder for them to KO the little guy as well. There obviously will be tiers as there was in melee, so I really don't see the fact that everyone lives to higher percentages a significant design flaw

Living even longer will only make it boring.

turn the stock/time down (or if you think it's beginning to get boring simply quit playing)

 

[error_alt_delete]

Easily fixed by actually letting the move have some hitframes during which it is an attack. To allow him the freedom to do anything (except another Up B) after Up B is broken. I think it's one of the auto-sweetspotting Up Bs so if he does it from below the stage, he'll either auto-sweeetspot, or should someone be edgehogging, he'll just go past them and onto the stage.

The only reason why I could imagine him being able to move after Up B would not be broken is that it's apparently a 100% vertical move, making it way too easy to just edgehog.

They could've just made it a really good Up B instead of making the Up B useless, but his options afterwards broken.

1.I am saying that it is possible that there are no frames were it is a attack. it might be a move to launch you upwards and nothing more.

2.as for the auto sweet spotting, they may actualy bring back the ability to hit a opponents hands while they hold onto a edge. this would weaken his recovery advantage further.

3.how would he get past them so easily? he doesnt get invincibility frames from it, so unless the person has realy bad reflexes, he shouldnt get past them with his up B.

 

[Gilgamesh]

According to the same Gimpyfish this didn't seem to be a problem either, so no, i don't feel like their idea of balance is that.

 

[Psydon]

Oh, certainly. Nobody will ever die in Brawl. Not even heavy characters with crappy recovery. Rumour has it that they're removing the % meter; no matter what you do you'll never win now.

I know exactly what tomorrow's update will be:

How to Glide even with characters that don't have wings.

 

[maxieman]

^B + <B = answer to a vertical recovery in sonic's case

but still he isnt broken

 

[Mic_128]

By generally raising the bar for KO:ing, the characters who live longer will gain a much greater advantage.

For example, let's say that MetaKnights Fsmash would KO Peach at 120% in Melee and Bowser at 135%. In Brawl, you need 1.3 as much damage as in Melee in order to KO, so the same attack would KO Peach at 156% and Bowser at 175,5%. Instead of just a difference of 15%, it's now a difference of 19,5% and that's just a random example.

My god, that would mena that Bowser got a buff! Unthinkable!

The heavyweights SHOULD take a lot more to be killed than a Princess with a frilly dress, right? You can do stuff after Up B's and air dodges, the thing is everyone can do that, so it's not that horrific, and the point is that Sakurai, as he said ages ago, wanted to put additional focus into arial combat. He's managed to do that I think.

Besides, would you rather have it so that each character has only 2 options to recover, all easily countered, so it comes down to whoever's off the edge first automatically wins? (Like a number of characters and Fox in Melee)

 

[Yuna]

My god, that would mena that Bowser got a buff! Unthinkable!

The heavyweights SHOULD take a lot more to be killed than a Princess with a frilly dress, right? You can do stuff after Up B's and air dodges, the thing is everyone can do that, so it's not that horrific, and the point is that Sakurai, as he said ages ago, wanted to put additional focus into arial combat. He's managed to do that I think.

I don't know how you played Melee, but Bowser was much harder to kill compared to Peach (and Peach was even a pretty heavy character). And you don't think Melee had a lot of aerial combat? And how have these changes put much more focus on aerial combat?

Everyone can do stuff after Up B since when now?

Besides, would you rather have it so that each character has only 2 options to recover, all easily countered, so it comes down to whoever's off the edge first automatically wins? (Like a number of characters and Fox in Melee)

Each character still only has two options to recover. Sonic's the only one with an additional option. In fact, people used to have more than two options, but since airdodges can no longer be done directionally...

 

[Demon Kirby]

I don't know how you played Melee, but Bowser was much harder to kill compared to Peach (and Peach was even a pretty heavy character). And you don't think Melee had a lot of aerial combat? And how have these changes put much more focus on aerial combat?

Everyone can do stuff after Up B since when now?

Sigh . . . You're not good at reading comprehension, are you? You adressed everything a moderator on a video game forums already knows.

Each character still only has two options to recover. Sonic's the only one with an additional option. In fact, people used to have more than two options, but since airdodges can no longer be done directionally...

Meta Knight?

Sigh . . . Actually, I'm just going to leave now. This is obviously pointless.

 

[Sumenora]

I really dont have a problem with this really, as far as im concerned....harder to KO = More skill Required and more fun IMO^^....we are worrying too much if this game gonna suck. i know it will be full of EPIC WIN! so no worries..

 

[Wiseguy]

Does anyone feel like their idea of balance was "Let's just make it much harder to KO in general"?

"It's just like [...] Titanic, only no one dies."


I mean, first we have the new characters. Almost every single one of them has an Up B with broken range a la Game & Watch and Mewtwo. Then there's Sonic who can move and do anything but another Up B after an Up B (the ultimate level of brokenness).

Then, there's the new airdodge. Enemy coming at you with an attack? Airdodge and then jump/whatever to get back on the stage.

Then, all of the returning characters received buffed Up Bs. Mario's is denitely longer and Peach's is practically 50% longer. Even Yoshi got a height increase.

And lastly, there's the broken new feature where most Up Bs auto-sweetspot.

According to Gimpyfish, characters seemingly live for much longer now than in Melee. It's almost virtually impossible to KO anyone before the 120%'s. And then there's the added "bonus" och super-freeze-frame to DI (though this is just a side effect).

It would've been a blast to sit in on that meeting where they discussed this. "Hmm... Melee was too broken! People would die at 70% if they got owned through edgeguarding and edgehogging. Let's make it much harder to KO people!"

First, if you are worried about the characters being too difficult to kill, just crank up the damage ratio.

Second, unless you have played the demo I would hesitate before calling any of the new features "broken." This is an entirely new game, so its possible to add new features like auto-sweet spotting and multiple air dodging while still keeping all the characters equally balanced.

Third, what was shown at E4ALL was not the final game - just a demo. The final product will likely see some drastic changes before hitting store shelves. All I'm saying is that it is much too early to pass judgement.

Peace.

 

[shipoffools]

it just means you have to actually knock people off the screen instead of winning just because the opponent was not able to get back. a better game, i say

 

[Mambo]

I like the focus split it creates. Like two players go at it. One's goal may be to knock the oppoent to the edge as quick as possible and the other's maybe to rack up damage. It can give a stylized fighting methods. But overall I don't think it'll be that much harder to KO. And turnyments and such can compensate with more/less time more/less stock.

 

[2007]

harder to KO eh? that just means longer sudden death matches.
=2007=

 

[Egret]

Isn't the reason Sonic isn't rendered useless after his up-b so people will actually use it as an attack? This seems like a good thing considering how many up-b's in melee were rarely used when not recovering.

 

[maxieman]

items = on

problem solved

 

[KratosAurion192]

I had a lot to say abotu EVERYTHING you've said so far....

Does anyone feel like their idea of balance was "Let's just make it much harder to KO in general"?

"It's just like [...] Titanic, only no one dies."


I mean, first we have the new characters. Almost every single one of them has an Up B with broken range a la Game & Watch and Mewtwo. Then there's Sonic who can move and do anything but another Up B after an Up B (the ultimate level of brokenness).

Then, there's the new airdodge. Enemy coming at you with an attack? Airdodge and then jump/whatever to get back on the stage.

Then, all of the returning characters received buffed Up Bs. Mario's is denitely longer and Peach's is practically 50% longer. Even Yoshi got a height increase.

And lastly, there's the broken new feature where most Up Bs auto-sweetspot.

According to Gimpyfish, characters seemingly live for much longer now than in Melee. It's almost virtually impossible to KO anyone before the 120%'s. And then there's the added "bonus" och super-freeze-frame to DI (though this is just a side effect).

It would've been a blast to sit in on that meeting where they discussed this. "Hmm... Melee was too broken! People would die at 70% if they got owned through edgeguarding and edgehogging. Let's make it much harder to KO people!"

1. Brawl is NOT going to be melee, get over it and stop comparing.
2. Sonics upB will probably be easy to counter regardless of being able to move...
3.Shouldn't it be more like 100-120% before death anyway? Seems more like a fighter to me...

Actually, making people generally much harder to KO will only serve to make the gaps between the Top Tiers and Low Tiers even more noticable.

I'll make a comparison:
In Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4, characters have different amounts of HP. The more Hp, the longer they live. There are only 4 "Damage Levels". At each Damage Level, HP goes down faster/slower. At DL1 (highest), you lose less life and at DL4, life goes down like crazy.

What's the big difference between DL2 and DL1? In DL1, the characters with the more HP have a much higher chance because while they only have to work marginally harder to KO lower HP characters, people have to work much harder to KO high HP characters.

The harder it is to generally KO, the harder people will have to work to kill really hard to KO characters. And characters will "cheap" moves like semi-spikes, spikes and meteor smashes will gain even greater advantages since while they'll be able to KO people at lower %s, no one else will be able to.

So in effect, the game just got more unbalanced.

You're comparing smash brothers to any other fighting game.... WTF? The only game like smash brothers is.... well... the other smash brothers....

Irrelevant. Does the spring stay in place even in the air? You do not Up B when on the ground. That's just stupid... unless it's, like, the only move you can use to finish a combo or something.

If he uses it as a recovery move, no one would use the spring against him (because they'd be busy trying to KO him). To have him be able to move even after using Up B in the air is just broken.

Exactly, it doesn't stay in the air, but have you seen the air he gets with it? he would be a sitting duck, part of it being balanced is still giving him the chance to defend himself...

you can still KO him, news flash, Sonics fast, but weak.

You just don't get it, do you? There's still things such as floatiness and weight in the game. Different characters require different levels of damage to get KO:ed by the exact same attack.

By generally raising the bar for KO:ing, the characters who live longer will gain a much greater advantage.

For example, let's say that MetaKnights Fsmash would KO Peach at 120% in Melee and Bowser at 135%. In Brawl, you need 1.3 as much damage as in Melee in order to KO, so the same attack would KO Peach at 156% and Bowser at 175,5%. Instead of just a difference of 15%, it's now a difference of 19,5% and that's just a random example.

As for the Footstool Jump, have you read how it works? Not that good.

You want to get into weight and floatiness but then you don't want to talk about start-up lag and the ability to hit? Meta knight can potentially combo bowser A LOT better than he can peach, giving him to ability to get Bowser to 175 a lot faster than peach to 156. There is A LOT to consider about the game (a lot isn't known yet) before making any kind of assumption about being broken.

Easily fixed by actually letting the move have some hitframes during which it is an attack. To allow him the freedom to do anything (except another Up B) after Up B is broken. I think it's one of the auto-sweetspotting Up Bs so if he does it from below the stage, he'll either auto-sweeetspot, or should someone be edgehogging, he'll just go past them and onto the stage.

The only reason why I could imagine him being able to move after Up B would not be broken is that it's apparently a 100% vertical move, making it way too easy to just edgehog.

They could've just made it a really good Up B instead of making the Up B useless, but his options afterwards broken.

You're talking about mabye's and potentials in this one, it's not as perfect as you're giving it credit for I'm sure.

The thing is that in Melee, you already could survive 'til high %s. On Final Destionation, as Peach, you rarely die below 150% unless hit by one of the Big Ones like a Marth-Tipper, Fox U-smash, etc. Living even longer will only make it boring.

Why play if you think it's boring?

I don't know how you played Melee, but Bowser was much harder to kill compared to Peach (and Peach was even a pretty heavy character). And you don't think Melee had a lot of aerial combat? And how have these changes put much more focus on aerial combat?

Everyone can do stuff after Up B since when now?


Each character still only has two options to recover. Sonic's the only one with an additional option. In fact, people used to have more than two options, but since airdodges can no longer be done directionally...

Wow... where to start....

1. going after a mod? no no...
2. bowser hard to KO? harder than peach? So again you overlook COMPLETLY how easy it is to be combo'd among other things...
3. Melee did have aerial combat, brawl is attempting (and by buffing all of the recoveries effectivly doing so) making it better and more common. You also seem to miss that this also means you can actually go out and off the stage and attack as well (oh look! More air games!)
4. as far as I know Sonic is the only one allowed to attack out of his upB....
5. If you only know of two ways to recover with your character you have a lot of work to do...




You're thread is based off a very biased opinion. NOTHING in this thread can be proven (what I said and others included) because the game's not out. You know NOTHING of the game just like the rest of us so stop trying to interpret info you don't have...

 

[SJAK47]

Um... sorry to be blunt but...

1) New game, new mechanics, get used to it
2) Comparisons to Melee is absolutely pointless.
3) The more damage, the more fun. This game is not for pros and competitors only! Nintendo is aiming at the kids who may be new to this, and they have every right to play amongst everyone. So stop making it sound like Sakurai is ruining the game or buffing everyone up for a bad cause just because of your style of play. Casual and competitive players alike deserve to play at the same level, like it or not.
4) This is all speculation. Even if you played the demo, the finalized version is bound to be different.
5) Don't play if you don't like how the game works.

 

[Corax The Cold]

will this effect balance? yeah, but it won't matter because its a whole fresh new game and they are going to balance it anyways. you are making it seem like brawl is an expansion to melee, its not; its its own game

 

[Card]

I'm going to add even more emphasis on KratosAurion192's post, aimed specifically at you Yuna.

This is probably the most obvious, yet easily missed point about Smash Brawl, which totally and completely destroys all the mentality you have right now about KO's in general. This was written by Gimpyfish in his original thread, and I think you need to take a long good look at it because you've obviously forgotten this valuable point;


Alright so first and foremost, the most important thing that I can possibly stress (beyond it being very fun) is this.

THIS GAME IS NOT MELEE. THIS GAME IS NOT SMASH 64.
THIS IS A NEW GAME.



I think you need to go back and read all of your posts Yuna. I think practically in every single post you have made in this thread, you made a GIGANTIC comparison from Smash Brawl to Smash Melee. It seems that you have forgotten that this is NOT Smash Melee. You seem to imagine all the methods of recovery, and different mind-games, as if they were in a Smash Melee setting. But as Gimpyfish and all the other E4All'ists have explained, this is NOT the case. Smash Brawl should not be compared with Smash Melee, or Smash 64.

Not only are you making these enormous comparisons between the two games, but you are making these comparisons with a game you have NEVER even played! I must say you are really grasping at facts and acting as if you have experienced them first hand.

I hope this message from Gimpyfish and myself has gotten through to you.

 

[WeeklyJumpman]

I don't care how long it takes as long as it's still fun.

 

[KratosAurion192]

card is my new favorite person...

 

[Eaode]

Just pointing out, Bowser is a lot easier to kill than Peach in Melee

 

[legendofme]

Don't play it. Simple. 411 is it's not the same game.

 

[Youkai Master]

Am I the only one who agrees with Yuna...?

I've thought of the same thing since I saw the E for All impressions, another thing I dislike is the new trajectories, most attacks seem to send you way upwards now, stuff like Pikachu's dsmash or Samus' missiles should NOT send you straight up, it makes them kind of pointless, there should be different (and appropriate) kinds of trajectories....

Couple that with the improved DI and every character seemingly having the same floatiness and air mobility, and you have a very stale and repetitive game =/


I really hope I'm wrong and it's not at all like I think it is, I'm all up for new things I don't want a Melee copypaste, but I want Brawl to be fun and infinitely deep and replayable too so these things kind of worry me...

 

[Desruprot]

It depends, I do think Direction Influence is still possible in it, perhaps in the video, the player had the missile hit slightly upward...But to me it seems no different from Melee, except for Bowser is Bowser not easier to kill then peach

 

[El Raspa]

I think that with all the changes a player is forced to kill by kicking some people out of the stage and not by impeding that them return to stage like was in melee

 

[Hippochinfat]

Its a new game who cares if we live longer, some people might like it some people might not. Your acting like its impossible to kill somone go burn in hell.