Bowser's Moveset Analysis/Discussion (Pre-Release discussion)

[Hokori]

The new ledge mechanic sounds like it'll be a lot of fun. Especially since you can't stall and retain invincibility frames.

 

[Jerodak]

The new ledge mechanic sounds like it'll be a lot of fun. Especially since you can't stall and retain invincibility frames.

Yeah, and with the absence of edgehogging it will take a bit more forethought to gimp an opponent and you won't be able to just get an easy stock of off the smallest mistakes, basically you always have a match now. The removal of over 100% attacks is also a good thing in my opinion, they probably wouldn't have worked in this new system at all. Also, most importantly, the player on the offensive is actually rewarded for cornering the other player and forcing them to the ledge because now it actually opens up more options instead of forcing them to deal with ledgestall tactics from the other player. I'm pretty excited to see what kind of matches this is going to result in once everyone learns the meta.

Edit: Another thing I forgot to mention is now each character's edgeguarding should be a lot more diverse now, having that really good universal option kinda made things a little too flowchart in my opinion.

 

[Hokori]

Yeah, and with the absence of edgehogging it will take a bit more forethought to gimp an opponent and you won't be able to just get an easy stock of off the smallest mistakes, basically you always have a match now. The removal of over 100% attacks is also a good thing in my opinion, they probably wouldn't have worked in this new system at all. Also, most importantly, the player on the offensive is actually rewarded for cornering the other player and forcing them to the ledge because now it actually opens up more options instead of forcing them to deal with ledgestall tactics from the other player. I'm pretty excited to see what kind of matches this is going to result in once everyone learns the meta.

Indeed. Players won't be able to plan out how they want to get back as much or wear out the patience of their opponent. Also nice because it keeps the pace of the match going.

I feel as though Bowser will be pretty sick at edgeguarding in the new games since he seems to have options for days. His Fire Breath is pretty massive and Whirling Fortress doesn't go off the stage...it'd be funny to see people getting semi-spiked trying to get back on

 

[B!squick]

Fortress doesn't go off the stage? That's weird. What about if you roll into the edge to put you in that teetering state without the animation, if you know what I'm talking about.

Though come to think of it I remember from a video that you even have a special animation just for running off, I wonder if that factors in somehow.

Also, I'm starting to get tentative in my desire to main Bowser again. Half of the fun of picking him was his trashiness.

 

[4cast]

Someone has probably already posted this but on the off chance someone hasn't I'll do it anyway VGB's Bowser Moveset Demonstration sorry if someone has already posted it

 

[Hokori]

Fortress doesn't go off the stage? That's weird. What about if you roll into the edge to put you in that teetering state without the animation, if you know what I'm talking about.

Though come to think of it I remember from a video that you even have a special animation just for running off, I wonder if that factors in somehow.

Also, I'm starting to get tentative in my desire to main Bowser again. Half of the fun of picking him was his trashiness.

Yeah, in the moveset demonstration video, they couldn't go off-stage with Whirling Fortress...wonder if that's going to be the case in the final version of the game.

Bowser may not be my main (I always main a Fire Emblem character, I'll co-main Shulk too if he's in) but he's definitely going to be in my most used characters, so that's why I'm enjoying all of the discussion we're having here.

Someone has probably already posted this but on the off chance someone hasn't I'll do it anyway VGB's Bowser Moveset Demonstration sorry if someone has already posted it

That's what we're basing the majority of our discussion from. It's the very first video that's posted in the original post. Don't worry about it though. At least you embedded the vid and we have access to it on the second page now

 

[4cast]

Oh well that's fine I guess! XD
on a side note I have a video of every Final Smash We know of right now so would you like me to embed it?

 

[Hokori]

That wouldn't be necessary since it's not relevant for this particular topic.

 

[4cast]

That's fine XD

 

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Good job find the Jab cancel! I've been trying to see if it's been in the game for a while. Really gonna need this.

 

[Hokori]

Good job find the Jab cancel! I've been trying to see if it's been in the game for a while. Really gonna need this.

Bowser's jab cancel strings are going to be so menacing

 

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Bowser's jab cancel strings are going to be so menacing

What makes it so nuts for Bowser is his jab range. Really good for footsies.

 

[Hokori]

What makes it so nuts for Bowser is his jab range. Really good for footsies.

Speaking of range, I believe his grab range was buffed slightly as well.

 

[Jerodak]

Speaking of range, I believe his grab range was buffed slightly as well.

It was buffed actually, he can grab from a bit past the tip of his knuckles, the clash tournaments Bowser vs Zero Suit Samus video shows this when Bowser does a banana throw into grab, you can slow it down and pause to see about how far away she is from him when the grab connects.

http://youtu.be/lL0F2BNCU2k?t=1m41s

It woulda been great if he'd gone for a grab release instead so we could have some good footage for it.

 

[Hokori]

It was buffed actually, he can grab from a bit past the tip of his knuckles, the clash tournaments Bowser vs Zero Suit Samus video shows this when Bowser does a banana throw into grab, you can slow it down and pause to see about how far away she is from him when the grab connects.

http://youtu.be/lL0F2BNCU2k?t=1m41s

Yeah, that's the video I was referring to. Nice, I'm just running through all of the potential jab cancel shenanigans through my head

 

[Jerodak]

@ Hokori same here, i'm also wondering what his pivot grab range is like, I already liked his Brawl pivot grab so I bet i'll have a lot of fun with this one.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser Jab is good. Nothing new here. lol

 

[Hokori]

Bowser Jab is good. Nothing new here. lol

Ha ha. Well aside from his jab, what are your thoughts on the new Bowser so far?

 

[Jerodak]

Whoops, replied accidently while trying to edit something, lol.

Edit: Ok, I cleaned up the O.P a little bit and sorted out the links by date. It was rather long so I tried to make everything easier to read without too much scrolling, my apologies to anyone trying to browse on a flip phone though, lol.

 

[Hokori]

#ThankYouSpoilerTags

I was going back over the F-Smash footage and it's pretty ridiculous. The initial hit when Little Mac was struck did 21% while I delayed hit still managed to do 18% on ZSS. Would've been nice to see the percentage of the portion that the other Bowser took.

Due to how long the hitbox stays out, Jab cancel > F-Smash could be potentially be used on a spotdodge happy opponent as a mix-up.

And it was also interesting to see how early Marth was KO'd on the Pilotwings stage (granted, the move was somewhat charged). 43%! Seemed livable, but regardless, the dropkick is good for mollywhopping.

 

[Jerodak]

mollywhopping.

Lol.

I'm going to try to get more Fsmash footage, Fsmash has always been like his bread and butter. There's a clip somewhere showign Bowser fsmashing Samus from on top of a platform while she tries to upsmash him, if that's not up there already I'll be adding it next.

 

[Hokori]

@ J Jerodak That's one of my favorite words and since Bowser has a plethora of kill moves, he's going to be doing a lot of it. F-Air, B-Air, D-Air, U-Air, all Smash Attacks, Down-B, Side-B, F-Tilt...let the mollywhopping begin >:D

I don't think that clip you mentioned is on here so if you add it, that'll be great. Definitely interested in seeing that.

 

[Vysetron]

@ J Jerodak let the mollywhopping begin >:D

You know what they say about Koopas with big claws.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Hokori He'll be handing out those flying lesson to everyone for sure. I'm really liking how much respect it's looking like players will need to give him now; I bet it's going to be a lot of fun meeting people who try to fight him like it's Brawl.

 

[Hokori]

@ Hokori He'll be handing out those flying lesson to everyone for sure. I'm really liking how much respect it's looking like players will need to give him now; I bet it's going to be a lot of fun meeting people who try to fight him like it's Brawl.

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of players will be hesitant to challenge some of the moves in which he displays his resistance (although I'm sure in the beginning, people are really going to be surprised...unless they've been studying up on Bowser as much as we have ) as well as respecting landing hitboxes and hitboxes that linger for awhile.

Bowser actually having a fair amount of potential traps and shenanigans is cool stuff.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Bowser's UpB is now a edge guard instead of a edge specifc technique now. Since most recovery moves no longer go past the edge(Fox side B, Bowser Up B), you can have perfect edge coverage with it. Some hits to seem to be pseudo spike as well.

From the demo we see ledge snapping is not always present. Samus seems to have a hard time with it and Sonic and Mega Man look like they'll have trouble no matter what.

 

[Hokori]

Bowser's UpB is now a edge guard instead of a edge specifc technique now. Since most recovery moves no longer go past the edge(Fox side B, Bowser Up B), you can have perfect edge coverage with it. Some hits to seem to be pseudo spike as well.

From the demo we see ledge snapping is not always present. Samus seems to have a hard time with it and Sonic and Mega Man look like they'll have trouble no matter what.

I was thinking about this awhile ago actually. Was also wondering about Bowser's D-Air regarding the move's spiking feature. If the whole shell spikes, then recoveries adjacent to the ledge and coming from below could be in danger of being denied without Bowser actually jumping off the stage to use the move since the hitbox for it is so large. Kind of like Falco's D-Air in Melee in the sense that if you connect even a little bit with it it'll spike...that's what I was thinking about

 

[Jerodak]

I was thinking about this awhile ago actually. Was also wondering about Bowser's D-Air regarding the move's spiking feature. If the whole shell spikes, then recoveries adjacent to the ledge and coming from below could be in danger of being denied without Bowser actually jumping off the stage to use the move since the hitbox for it is so large. Kind of like Falco's D-Air in Melee in the sense that if you connect even a little bit with it it'll spike...that's what I was thinking about

I was actually thinking about this as well, and if you miss with the spike then the landing hitbox might still be useful, it appears to semi-spike. Not as good, but still a dangerous situation when recovering.

 

[Hokori]

I was actually thinking about this as well, and if you miss with the spike then the landing hitbox might still be useful, it appears to semi-spike. Not as good, but still a dangerous situation when recovering.

Exactly why I'm seeing more potential for D-Air as a viable edge-guard option rather than just for suicidal kills (Koopaciding with the Side-B can still serve that role as well). And the lag isn't all too bad to worry excessively about getting punished.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I was thinking about this awhile ago actually. Was also wondering about Bowser's D-Air regarding the move's spiking feature. If the whole shell spikes, then recoveries adjacent to the ledge and coming from below could be in danger of being denied without Bowser actually jumping off the stage to use the move since the hitbox for it is so large. Kind of like Falco's D-Air in Melee in the sense that if you connect even a little bit with it it'll spike...that's what I was thinking about

If the only recovery option is to go up then it's certainly a good edgeguarding tool. On the other hand if IASA frames are present we can UpB OoS if we miss.

 

[Hokori]

Noticed the update to the OP.

Welp, the other Bowser was just out of reach, but it has noticeably improved. Seems like the cooldown is about the same, but I wonder if the hitbox comes out a little earlier compared to his former T-Rex grab...

 

[Jerodak]

Noticed the update to the OP.

Welp, the other Bowser was just out of reach, but it has noticeably improved. Seems like the cooldown is about the same, but I wonder if the hitbox comes out a little earlier compared to his former T-Rex grab...

Maybe, either way it still looks a lot better than the old grab, just need some good footage for dash and pivot grabs to get a nice range approximation overall.

 

[Hokori]

Maybe, either way it still looks a lot better than the old grab, just need some good footage for dash and pivot grabs to get a nice range approximation overall.

Would've been nice if that Smash 4 event that took place in Japan was streamed. Could have seen more footage that way. But at this point, we'll probably have to wait until the game is out in Japan to snoop on some content. Doubt Bowser would be shown some more in a Smash segment of the Nintendo Direct expected in August.

But yeah, his grab has definitely improved. And once again, that'll open up some more possibilities for the Koopa King.

 

[Z1GMA]

Do you guys think there's a good chance his down+b insta Shield Break will stay?

 

[Hokori]

Do you guys think there's a good chance his down+b insta Shield Break will stay?

Unless during further play-testing they feel as though the shield breaking properties is a bit "too much", I don't feel like it would change. Marth received a Shield Breaker buff and well...Bowser is meant to be immensely powerful, and he's just big in general. Seems pretty natural for him to be busting shields coming down like that

 

[Vysetron]

Do you guys think there's a good chance his down+b insta Shield Break will stay?

Down B is so easy to avoid that I can't see it being an issue, but who knows. I want to believe though.

 

[Hokori]

Bowser players just shouldn't be using the move willy nilly every time they're high in the air though. Good judgment can make this move something, you know...hitting people having the audacity to challenge you, catching someone off guard that they panic into their shield last second or can't get out of the range of the landing hitbox...although it got buffed, that doesn't mean that the move should be used often in a match.

 

[Jerodak]

Bowser players just shouldn't be using the move willy nilly every time they're high in the air though. Good judgment can make this move something, you know...hitting people having the audacity to challenge you, catching someone off guard that they panic into their shield last second or can't get out of the range of the landing hitbox...although it got buffed, that doesn't mean that the move should be used often in a match.

As long as it can properly link now from both hits then we can see it finally being much more reliable as an anti-air. Also, I agree on the shield break, it's already super punishable if the opponent rolls or spot dodges, especially with Luigi. So it's nice that there's at least one defensive option which actually loses to it. It actually means we have another reason to condition a player to shield, nothing against the Klaw or Bowser's grab game of course but a shield break is HUGE you can get the most optimal attack whether you want big damage or huge knockback.

 

[Hokori]

As long as it can properly link now from both hits then we can see it finally being much more reliable as an anti-air. Also, I agree on the shield break, it's already super punishable if the opponent rolls or spot dodges, especially with Luigi. So it's nice that there's at least one defensive option which actually loses to it. It actually means we have another reason to condition a player to shield, nothing against the Klaw or Bowser's grab game of course but a shield break is HUGE you can get the most optimal attack whether you want big damage or huge knockback.

I'll probably end up charging up the drop kick (F-Smash) all the way upon shield break. After I saw how it literally destroyed Marth on Pilotwings at 43%, that move is almighty and it needs to be feared. Seems like it'll have both the damage output and the huge knockback I'm looking for in a major punish.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ya, definitely Fsmash after Shield Break, if one is looking for a kill.
Not sure what's the best option if you happen to break their shield at around 0%, though.