Bowser's Moveset Analysis/Discussion (Pre-Release discussion)

[S_B]

Keep in mind that the armor on Up smash is on the charge, not the attack itself, so if you saw someone beat the attack while it was active then that's why

Are you sure about this?

There's a video somewhere of Bowser U-smashing a Bobomb on the platform above him and taking zero damage/knockback, thanks to his SA...

 

[Jerodak]

Are you sure about this?

There's a video somewhere of Bowser U-smashing a Bobomb on the platform above him and taking zero damage/knockback, thanks to his SA...

I'm absolutely positive, i've seen the video you're talking about, but it doesn't really confirm armor, it could have been a clank, or it could have been intangibility, I'll look further into it to see if I can give you a more concrete answer. Until then, please have a look at this. http://youtu.be/f0rnJeXedJY?t=2m1s Note that instead of what one would call armor, it's actually more akin to a guard point property, Bowser actually takes no damage from the attack, so it's more like a Shell guard or Shell parry perhaps? All instances of Up smash "armor" that I've seen have been during the charge, not the attack. I hope that helps!

Edit: I took another look, the quality of the video you mentioned is not great so it's not easy to tell, I looks like there's a klank bubble, but it could just be an artifact or part of the explosion effect that's just skewed a bit by the resolution. However, with the smash being fully charged, I wouldn't be surprised if it could klank a bob-om, especially if priority works the same as it does in Brawl, but right now it's just inconclusive unless I can get better footage or actually get to test it myself.

 

[S_B]

I'm absolutely positive, i've seen the video you're talking about, but it doesn't really confirm armor, it could have been a clank, or it could have been intangibility, I'll look further into it to see if I can give you a more concrete answer. Until then, please have a look at this. http://youtu.be/f0rnJeXedJY?t=2m1s Note that instead of what one would call armor, it's actually more akin to a guard point property, Bowser actually takes no damage from the attack, so it's more like a Shell guard or Shell parry perhaps? All instances of Up smash armor that I've seen have been during the charge, not the attack. I hope that helps!

I guess clanking will work differently in this game? Usually clanking causes the moves to stop, right?

Also, can bobomb blasts actually clank? I've always seen them win outright in the past...

There was a "clank" in one of the tournament matches where TLink came down on Bowser with his D-air while Bowser was smack dab in the middle of his Fsmash (hit Bowser right in the middle of his body) and yet Bowser didn't react.

Sadly, because this was on the 3DS, we couldn't see percentage.

Given that TLink didn't seem to be striking Bowser's hitbox, is this evidence of SA or just a clank? I should probably add that TLink bounced off of Bowser as if he had delivered the hit...

 

[Jerodak]

I guess clanking will work differently in this game? Usually clanking causes the moves to stop, right?

Also, can bobomb blasts actually clank? I've always seen them win outright in the past...

There was a "clank" in one of the tournament matches where TLink came down on Bowser with his D-air while Bowser was smack dab in the middle of his Fsmash (hit Bowser right in the middle of his body) and yet Bowser didn't react.

Sadly, because this was on the 3DS, we couldn't see percentage.

Given that TLink didn't seem to be striking Bowser's hitbox, is this evidence of SA or just a clank? I should probably add that TLink bounced off of Bowser as if he had delivered the hit...

Yes, in a lot of cases, clanking will cause attacks to stop, however that's only if both attacks are within 8% of each other, if the difference is greater a clank still happens but only to the weaker attack, for grounded attacks this will end the weaker attack while the stronger attack continues, usually dealing damage to whoever initiated the weaker attack, aerials follow a slightly different set of rules, if you win a priority fight vs an aerial, it continues, although the hitboxes which were clanked will be rendered useless. If you'd like a good Brawl example that's easy to demonstrate of an attack outright beating another in a priority battle, pick Bowser vs peach in training mode, make peach use toad, then fsmash her with Bowser so that the first hit of the attack will activate toad. The spores will uselessly clank against the second, more powerful hitbox and deal no damage while Bowser's second hit will plow through and hit Peach. Another example is any fully charged neutral special projectile from either Samus or lucario versus Bowser's firebreath.

If clanking works similarly in this game then it is possible that a fully charges upsmash may have just clanked out the bob-om and won, but since it's an item maybe it worked similar to an aerial? It might not be intangibility, since I've seen that same up smash get hit, it's also not armor because i've seen the active frames get hit and cause a flinch, so it just seems like it's most likely a clank. This doesn't prove it outright of course, since it might be something completely new altogether. I've certainly been wrong before, lol.

 

[S_B]

This doesn't prove it outright of course, since it might be something completely new altogether. I've certainly been wrong before, lol.

I'm almost wondering if it's something new altogether, but only time will tell.

I'm anxious to see what you think of the tourney videos. I'll see if I can find the Bowser/TLink clank for analysis once they get uploaded somewhere (unless you get there first).

It was a 1v1 in the winner's bracket on the AC stage, if that helps.

 

[Jerodak]

I'm almost wondering if it's something new altogether, but only time will tell.

I'm anxious to see what you think of the tourney videos. I'll see if I can find the Bowser/TLink clank for analysis once they get uploaded somewhere (unless you get there first).

It was a 1v1 in the winner's bracket on the AC stage, if that helps.

Much appreciated, I actually prefer to find footage on youtube because of the ability to slow down the footage and because of the share feature, it makes things a lot more convenient for everyone. If you find it before I post my update then you can just post it here in the thread or PM it to me and I'll take it from there.

 

[S_B]

It's right around 6:44:35:
http://www.twitch.tv/nintendo/b/551127009

And it looks very much to be a clank.

 

[Jerodak]

It's right around 6:44:35:
http://www.twitch.tv/nintendo/b/551127009

And it looks very much to be a clank.

Yep, Bowser bomb is similar, it'll clank out an attack, making it useless, then keep going so it seems like a much better way to deal with juggling now, I could also see it being used for counter-poking and as an anti air if it turns out to be a true one-two combo now.

By the way, Bowser does have armor on his up and side specials, light armor on the up special and probably also light armor on the side special during the part where him and the opponent are airborne. I especially like the side-b armor because being knocked out of it with weak projectiles was rather annoying, in fact I wonder how good the armor on it actually is, I've only seen it shrug off a thrown wind bell which did 6%.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I'm incredibly sad we could not see %. I really REALLY want to know how much a grounded UpB does now. I love how it's a ground multi-hit and I wonder what kind of effect it has on shields, especially if it's capable of shield poke. Seeing as it can no longer be safely ledge canceled, I want to know how good it is when you put the move to use. I hope someone that went to SDCC can shed light on this.

Edit: Thanks, Jerodak. My bad. I derped too hard.

 

[Jerodak]

@ UltimaLuminaire

Up-B: 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 4% (11%)

This is based on footage from the Bowser's moveset demo video.

http://youtu.be/eOEo0A7zVMU?t=4m46s

Edit: Nah, it's all good man, glad I could help.

 

[S_B]

Yep, Bowser bomb is similar, it'll clank out an attack, making it useless, then keep going so it seems like a much better way to deal with juggling now, I could also see it being used for counter-poking and as an anti air if it turns out to be a true one-two combo now.

By the way, Bowser does have armor on his up and side specials, light armor on the up special and probably also light armor on the side special during the part where him and the opponent are airborne. I especially like the side-b armor because being knocked out of it with weak projectiles was rather annoying, in fact I wonder how good the armor on it actually is, I've only seen it shrug off a thrown wind bell which did 6%.

I find it interesting that a clank happened here, however.

That gif in your sig demonstrates this, and it really, REALLY shows us just the IMMENSE amount of hitbox Bowser is sending out when he does his new Fsmash. Because TLink clanked there, we know for a fact that, yes, even the side of Bowser's gut is enough hitbox to deflect an aerial.

Had it not been an aerial with a disjointed hitbox (ie the sword), I'm betting the aerial would've lost to Bowser's Fsmash and the character would've been hit by it, too.

 

[Jerodak]

I find it interesting that a clank happened here, howe ver.

That gif in your sig demonstrates this, and it really, REALLY shows us just the IMMENSE amount of hitbox Bowser is sending out when he does his new Fsmash. Because TLink clanked there, we know for a fact that, yes, even the side of Bowser's gut is enough hitbox to deflect an aerial.

Had it not been an aerial with a disjointed hitbox (ie the sword), I'm betting the aerial would've lost to Bowser's Fsmash and the character would've been hit by it, too.

Yeah, Bowser's Fsmash basically turns his entire body into a kill zone, so now it's a far more aggressive move that controls space incredibly well, and it also still looks to have the same functions that the old Fsmash had as a defensive counter poking tool. I'm really linking how the priority on his attacks are actually looking like a real factor in the game now with both Bowser bomb and Fsmash being seen clanking various hitboxes. Perhaps clanking will be a bit more important now? We might start seeing more clank wars, and more strategies based around what to do when you clank; could be pretty interesting.

By the way, on a random note, I noticed that if you use a get-up attack when someone tries to grab the ledge with you on it, then they will just grab on while to complete the animation. I could see this leading to some interesting ledge play.

http://youtu.be/_V1L3Br2GYk?t=5h36m watch Mario and Pikachu.

 

[ImaClubYou]

6:20 is weird.

 

[Jerodak]

6:20 is weird.

Yeah, it looks like the tip of the firebreath has a push effect instead of a damaging effect like the rest of the breath does. I've noticed characters falling out of the damaging hitboxes and into the tip of the flames where they just get pushed away instead, seems like a way to keep it balanced considering the sheer size of the attack and reduced cooldown.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I was assuming Bowser has armor when falling, lol. But that's the only time I saw that happen so you're probably right.

 

[Jerodak]

I was assuming Bowser has armor when falling, lol. But that's the only time I saw that happen so you're probably right.

LOL that'd be pretty funny, fast fall for best approach.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I kind of don't like Bowser's Dash Attack, btw. At least animation wise.

It could've been his double shell rollout move from Galaxy 1, if anything.

 

[Jerodak]

I kind of don't like Bowser's Dash Attack, btw. At least animation wise.

It could've been his double shell rollout move from Galaxy 1, if anything.

It has a pretty mixed reception, I don't mind it too much myself but I do really like how the screen shakes with each step and the sound each footfall makes. I don't ever recall seeing Bowser run in any of the Mario games. It may be possible that this is the first time he's been animated actually running. Either way, if my opponent thinks it's goofy, and doesn't want to take Bowser seriously, then I welcome the easy game.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

It has a pretty mixed reception, I don't mind it too much myself but I do really like how the screen shakes with each step and the sound each footfall makes. I don't ever recall seeing Bowser run in any of the Mario games. It may be possible that this is the first time he's been animated actually running. Either way, if my opponent thinks it's goofy, and doesn't want to take Bowser seriously, then I welcome the easy game.

His Smash4 run animation is as it was in the Galaxy series of games... when he's not jumping or hovering with his own fire breath. His walk animation is very much like it was from Bowser's Inside Story. His tumble animation from walking off a platform is also taken from his crazy acrobatic somersaults in the Galaxy games. I can actually see where they got the inspiration for his neutral air.

Edit: http://youtu.be/kS3TgDF9bww?t=2m23s

 

[Zigsta]

Bowser's upsmash definitely has super armor on it on the way down--I can confirm from playing the demo.

Also it's noteworthy that Scar was incorrect in his commentary in 3DS SDCC GFs--you CAN go backwards when grabbing someone with Klaw. I only tried it once, but I got a Koopacide off. Not sure why no one else tried to go back with Klaw.

 

[Jerodak]

Bowser's upsmash definitely has super armor on it on the way down--I can confirm from playing the demo.

Also it's noteworthy that Scar was incorrect in his commentary in 3DS SDCC GFs--you CAN go backwards when grabbing someone with Klaw. I only tried it once, but I got a Koopacide off. Not sure why no one else tried to go back with Klaw.

If you happen to have any footage of the armor on the way down, then that would be great for documentation, until then I'll take your word for it. And that's odd, how did anyone end up thinking that it couldn't go backwards?

 

[Zigsta]

I unfortunately don't have footage but it happened several times in the roughly 50ish matches I played over two days.

 

[Jerodak]

I unfortunately don't have footage but it happened several times in the roughly 50ish matches I played over two days.

Well thanks for the information, I'm going to look through all the footage i've seen so far to see if there's an instance of this that I may have missed; I'll post an update if there's anything good.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

So I dunno if this is current discussion, but guys, Bowser has some form of armour on his idle stance, or just takes reduced hitstun due to his insane weight. He also very definitely has some armour on his jab. Larry's Bowser literally jabbed Toon Link out of his grounded Up Special at one point in the SDCC tournament. I'm surprised the commentators didn't make a big deal of that.

See here. He does it again, too. And later, he just rolls right out of it, which works fine since rolls are intangible frame 1 now.

 

[Zigsta]

That might have more to do with Toon Link's grounded up B at that distance rather than Bowser having super armor on his idle stance. I played a TON of matches as Bowser on both Wii U and 3DS and never encountered super armor on my idle animation.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

That might have more to do with Toon Link's grounded up B at that distance rather than Bowser having super armor on his idle stance. I played a TON of matches as Bowser on both Wii U and 3DS and never encountered super armor on my idle animation.

Seems to me actually like it's Bowser's weight coupled with Spin Attack's low knockback means it doesn't combo at low percents, and his jab has armour.

 

[Jerodak]

@ JamietheAuraUser I've seen what you're talking about, there's also some footage of Bowser not caring about megabuster pellets and super scope's rapid fire, and a blue kremlin's spin attack. I don't think this is actually armor though since Bowser does actually flinch from the attack. It seems more like what you just said already, his attributes are enabling him to recover sooner. I think this might apply to more than just Bowser as well. Perhaps all the bigger characters have this trait. Luigi appears to be affected normally after all http://youtu.be/75k4eXbtbtk?t=1h15m54s I could see this applying only to the larger characters since they are already inherently easy to combo, so this would force the character to be more careful about what options they decide to use, it could also make projectiles easier to handle maybe. Hopefully someone might test this out at the next pre-release demo session at the play nintendo tour.

 

[Exegguter]

Is Bowser still able to infinite jump by canceling side-b on the ground?

Sorry if this has been asked before.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Exegguter It appears that he lost this feature in smash 4. However, thanks to his improved mobility, it's possible that he may not need it.

 

[Exegguter]

@ Exegguter It appears that he lost this feature in smash 4. However, thanks to his improved mobility, it's possible that he may not need it.

Aww bummer

 

[Jerodak]

Aww bummer

I felt the same way at first, but who knows, maybe it's still in the game in some fashion but we haven't found out how to use it yet.
However, if it's just not in the game at all then I'd be fine with that too as long as Bowser no longer needs it.

 

[Exegguter]

I felt the same way at first, but who knows, maybe it's still in the game in some fashion but we haven't found out how to use it yet.
However, if it's just not in the game at all then I'd be fine with that too as long as Bowser no longer needs it.

It was usefull to bait grabs and projectiles. I hope he still has it in some way

 

[Zigsta]

Definitely doesn't have Klaw Hopping anymore sadly. There's a TON of landing lag now after a short hopped Klaw.

 

[Zigsta]

Seems to me actually like it's Bowser's weight coupled with Spin Attack's low knockback means it doesn't combo at low percents, and his jab has armour.

I confirmed with Larry that it's as I thought--Toon Link's grounded up B sucks now. You can just roll out of it and counter.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I confirmed with Larry that it's as I thought--Toon Link's grounded up B sucks now. You can just roll out of it and counter.

I'm not convinced it entirely sucks though. I think it might be Bowser that makes it suck due to being so heavy.

 

[Zigsta]

No, it def sucks. Larry saw the same thing happen with other characters.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Zigsta While you were playing did you get a chance to take advantage of the new ledge mechanics? I feel like Bowser could make good use of it, but you've actually played the game, so what do you think? Also, I when you took a hit during the second hit of the Upsmash was it similar armor to the charging portion or did you actually take damage? I'm wondering if it's actually pseudo armor similar to Fsmash where the hit is just out-prioritizing the attack and dealing damage. Fsmash seems to do this quite often, so it wouldn't be too outlandish for the upsmash to have a similar quality. Also, what do you think about klanking overall this time around, it seems like it'll be more important, did you get that impression while playing?

 

[Zigsta]

I wasn't on the ledge very often, but edgeguarding bair is REALLY good.

As for upsmash, I took damage on the second hit but no knockback.

Despite the fact that I got in a ton of matches, I only had one instance of klanking happen, and it was Fox's ftilt klanking with Bowser's dtilt. We both tried the same moves four times in a row, with the moves klanking four times. On the fourth time I won.

 

[Jerodak]

I wasn't on the ledge very often, but edgeguarding bair is REALLY good.

As for upsmash, I took damage on the second hit but no knockback.

Despite the fact that I got in a ton of matches, I only had one instance of klanking happen, and it was Fox's ftilt klanking with Bowser's dtilt. We both tried the same moves four times in a row, with the moves klanking four times. On the fourth time I won.

That sounds pretty good, I'll continue to keep an eye out for any new footage, maybe I'll catch that upsmash armor. I'd kinda also like to see some Bowser bomb vs link up air footage, It seems like it might actually win or trade now without having to space it a certain way; it did beat a three turnip up air from villager after all Also, did forward tilt appear to have light armor? There's a gif image in the gallery of Bowser using it while a blue kremlin is hitting him, but that could just be from smash run buffs or because the attack was just really weak like link's grounded up b.


Also, I found footage of Bowser's upsmash taking a hit on the way down. http://youtu.be/5z34aC0ADQw?t=39s It appears that if it does have armor then it's only active while the hitboxes are out. It seems he gets hit out of it otherwise. I'll keep poking around to see if I can find a clip that shows the armor, but if I overlooked an instance of it in any of the videos I've posted of if you happen to find some footage, then please let me know so I can add it to the OP.


EDIT: By the way, in the 3ds leak footage, I found something interesting. http://youtu.be/g3fpgWxLptQ?t=8s That's not Bowser's Backthrow, not his normal one anyway. If the leaked footage here is indeed legit then could this maybe be the return of the Melee side-b back throw? It wouldn't be that surprising for melee klaw to make a return via custom moves in some way.

For comparison here is the normal backthrow, http://youtu.be/OD_ZnB8yJuA?t=1m39s

 

[Zigsta]

I didn't notice any armor on ftilt.