Social Bowser's Castle

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Zapp Branniglenn Chill. It's just a social thread. It's a place for people to introduce themselves and talk about whatever is convenient.

The flame push-back is called auto-spacing. It prevents the opponent from DIing directly towards Bowser and getting a huge reward for it. It also prevents us from being immediately punished if we get pushed off the ledge by our own move. It has more merits than demerits, as long as you know what it's there for.

 

[Cassius.]

Not to derail the topic, but I'm probably going to be streaming again when I get out of class for a bit. A couple of local Smash players are coming to my apartment. They're not really super good per se but if you want to tune in and hear me say some **** you definitely should. Jerodak was on my stream last night after I finished hosting my WiFi monthly.

Http://twitch.tv/notcassius

edit: im probably going to turn the stream on between 6-6:30 est

edit: I lied. More people are coming over but they want to play marvel and Ultra. Ill try to stream at some point during this week. Sorry guys ;-;

 

[Zigsta]

Finally made my thread on Bowser and the Suicide Clause.

http://smashboards.com/threads/bowser-and-the-suicide-clause.392566/

 

[LIQUID12A]

Late to the topic, but I enjoy the idea of custom-legal tournaments. Bowser's dash grab custom, for example feels so great to use that I don't even care for the low jump height.

That's just me, though.

 

[Hitman JT]

If I were you in that position I think I would've RKO'd the TOs and demanded my money back + interest for the coast-to-coast screwjob, so props for not being me.

Spoiler

I'm still in utter disbelief that this actually needs to be a thing, like I'm half-tempted to quit until this lunacy is fixed...

 

[Cassius.]

I actually considered not going to APEX when I saw that he was excluded from the clauss. I wasn't put in the position that Chris was (can I even say "thankfully" here?), but it was absolutely ****ty watching that happen.

I wouldn't blame anyone for stopping until that's fixed. I was playing Jerodak on my stream last night and I had him with a few side-B's when I had a pretty big lead, and he somehow was in complete control of the move. Of course, I die first. All I kept thinking about is how we essentially CANNOT use that move if we're not in the center of the stage. As a grappler character, our command grab is becoming less abd less of a viable option, and for all of the wrong reasons.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

What I'd like to know is, why the change in a balance update? And why only bowsercide and not the other suicides? Some people claim it's because a lot of players were vocal about suicide moves being lame, but it can't be based on player response, if only one suicide is changed. We may never know the answer to "why", but I do want to know whether this change was intended in the first place.

Most bug fixes in that update were exploits just uploaded to youtube and clearly not intended by the developers, but Bowsercide had been intended to work not just in smash 4 before the patch, but Brawl as well. And another reason that supports this change being an error is that sometimes Bowser loses, and other times, it's sudden death. How can that aspect be inconsistent?

 

[Hitman JT]

Bowser was probably targeted because his is the easiest to pull off. The casuals weren't too fond about losing one stock then getting grabbed and being too incompetent to press the other direction to avoid losing their next one immediately. I'm more than guilty of abusing this in the pre-patched 3DS version myself, lol. Someone theorized that it could've been changed due to the Flying Man glitch on the Magicant stage, but it shouldn't have been an issue to fix the glitch without royally screwing over Bowser players everywhere. Especially when Ganondorf can Ganoncide the Flying Men without any problems.

 

[MrEh]

Finally made my thread on Bowser and the Suicide Clause.

http://smashboards.com/threads/bowser-and-the-suicide-clause.392566/

Let's do this.

 

[Cassius.]

I'm saying it now, if that suicide ruling becomes a thing, either two things will have to happen:

Customs be fully legal EVERYWHERE so we become used to dash slash

We fully figure out how flying slam works, because its properties aren't as straightforward as Brawl's as far as control goes.

That move is HORRIBLY programmed, and I'm not playing this character to lose for doing the right thing. I love Bowser, but I'm not about it. At all.

 

[Jerodak]

Bowser was probably targeted because his is the easiest to pull off. The casuals weren't too fond about losing one stock then getting grabbed and being too incompetent to press the other direction to avoid losing their next one immediately. I'm more than guilty of abusing this in the pre-patched 3DS version myself, lol. Someone theorized that it could've been changed due to the Flying Man glitch on the Magicant stage, but it shouldn't have been an issue to fix the glitch without royally screwing over Bowser players everywhere. Especially when Ganondorf can Ganoncide the Flying Men without any problems.

I still don't think the way this move works is at all intentional. Despite what seems to be popular opinion, I do not believe that the dev team would look at something this glaring and think "Not only does that look great, but it's completely fair and balanced!" When it very clearly looks "jank" and is quite obviously broken. Even moreso, why would they design it to give varied results based on the stage? That doesn't even make sense, no matter how casual you are. Also, for those who want to offer up the "Well Sakurai is a casual." argument. The current "design" of Bowsercides hurts casual players WAY more than competitive ones. It was already amuch weaker tactic in casual play to begin with, whether we're talking FFA items on with stocks, or time matches with any number of players, even if it worked like it did prepatch, it'd still be a much weaker tactic than it is in competitive. It doesn't work well in FFA because you have only 2-3 stocks to the 6-9 that your opponents have, and since Bowser is a massive target, he draws a lot of attention and players will likely tend to gang up on him, or he'll just likely get hit by every attack being thrown even if it wasn't aimed at him. So even trying to run in to get the grab is a terrible idea, then factor in that it takes a while to actually get into the air, so you'll likely just get hit out of it before going anywhere. Then let's look at timed matches, technically an unlimited stock amount but each bowsercide ends up breaking even when it worked the old way, with the chance of also giving a point to one of the other players on top of that. With the way it works now, you don't even get to break even, you just die, and maybe the opponent makes it back, in fact it's more likely because they will probably be wearing custom equipment in a casual match, which means there might be even more characters who can recover from that, possibly the entire cast depending on how strong any jump-boosting equipment is.

Also, Kirby can still do the Kirbycide where he just spits you out really low then recovers after, Ganoncide is generally favorable to Ganon. Why allow the tactic for some characters but not others? Especially when ganon already gets huge rewards even when just using the move normally. It's also not percent dependant at all and there's no way to steer him out of it. Also, with the 1 frame ledgesnap thing, couldn't Ganon just get Ganoncides quite easily on anyone trying to snap the ledge? Even if he missed the timing he'd probably just get the ledge trump anyway. Bowser can't do anything like that without customs, and his doesn't even snap to the ledge, then even if he does land it, if he's too high, the opponent could potentially just steer onto the stage anyway; Bowsercides are not "easier to land".

 

[Langston777]

ATTENTION BOWSER MAINS

PLEASE STOP PIVOT GRABBING ME

THANK YOU

 

[Cassius.]

attention langston777,

stand about 3 feet away from bowser if you want to live.

sincerely,
bowser mains

 

[Jerodak]

ATTENTION BOWSER MAINS

PLEASE STOP PIVOT GRABBING ME

THANK YOU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iHFvQ4_Hx0

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm having hell finding the third character in my trinity. Bara Dragon is staying my main. No questions asked. Donkey Kong is another character I really enjoy. Meanwhile, finding that third character has been hell. I've been juggling around Fox, Wii Fit Trainer, Palutena, and Shulk.Thing is they don't completely mesh with me. I'm not even a fan of using projectiles.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

I'm having hell finding the third character in my trinity. Bara Dragon is staying my main. No questions asked. Donkey Kong is another character I really enjoy. Meanwhile, finding that third character has been hell. I've been juggling around Fox, Wii Fit Trainer, Palutena, and Shulk.Thing is they don't completely mesh with me. I'm not even a fan of using projectiles.

Shulk has a high learning curve, so he takes alot of getting used to. If you want pure physical, he's a good choice. Of course, his artes give him alot more variety in how he attacks/his strategy. With your defensive playstyle, i think he could work well with you if you get used to his range and such.

 

[Cassius.]

going to do a late night stream if anyone is willing to tune in. you guys are more than welcome to play me as well and hear me talk about random bowser stuff. i'll be looking at the chat.

http://twitch.tv/notcassius

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@Cassius Was watching past broadcast. Good voice and picture. Looking forward to when you, Jerodak, and TruthOrDare stream again.

 

[Cassius.]

Yeah I got lucky that people actually wanted to play. I was talking to Jero for a bit before anything happened, and then people were like "DO STUFF, BRO."

 

[Shroomsy]

ATTENTION BOWSER MAINS

PLEASE STOP PIVOT GRABBING ME

THANK YOU

 

[33percentgod]

So folks, I think today is time where I have to retire Bowser. I love the character and I really wanted to get better and learn him. I have been playing him since day 1, but after today I've realized Bowser has such limitations where, in most cases, you will not win against most characters. It's the sad truth, but it's taken today for me to realize it.

I played a great Cap. Falcon today. He racked up 120% on me without me ever touching him once. Kept me airborne and juggled all over the stage where literally no matter what button I pushed, be it attack or air dodge, did anything because of Bowser's incredible lag. Down spiked to my death both times.

Then after that was a Link who murdered me with projectiles. You can't fight up close because the sword range still kills you and then if you try to play patient across the stage, you're spammed to death with projectiles.

Then, I played a Ness who beat me 8 to nothing. Apparently he can grab you and get 3, yes 3, F-air on you and no matter how much you push dodge, or anything else, there's 0 output. Once he starts the F-air combo, you might as well just set down the controller because there's no buttons that will work, they simply become obsolete.

I realized that's it's not just all me that can't "git gud", it's just the character. Bowser is gimped by many characters if they are played well. After today of just being decimated by a variety of higher tier characters, I realized that I'm never going to get any further as a Smash player with this character holding me back. It's a shame too cause I just spent 12 bucks on that amiibo! haha.

If anyone has any words of wisdom I'm all ears. I've taken everything I've learned from the Smash boards on Bowser and have tried to apply them. In many cases they do work, but once you're up against a really good player, the actual game limitations become painfully obvious. Bowser is very limited as his move set is missing so many fundamental things most characters have that are required for play. That coupled with the painfully long landing lag and ability to get spammed to absolute death with projectiles, it's just not possible for me. The game has been more frustrating instead of fun at this point and I've come to realize that it's because of the character and nothing ever working against higher tiered characters in the hands of a great player.

Good night, travel well, my favorite dinosaur.

 

[Zigsta]

@ 33percentgod , I moved your post to our social thread. I'm sorry to hear your frustrations about Bowser in Smash 4--they are certainly valid. Not everyone enjoys getting spammed and combo'd to death. Bowser's blindspot is still a very big weakness. If the character isn't fun to you anymore, then I definitely recommend moving on OR just take a break from Smash entirely. Either option often breathes fresh, new life into your Bowser game, should you ever desire to return to the character.

You're of course welcome to hang around our boards regardless.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Bowser talk somewhere else made me think of Zigsta.
I miss Zigsta, have you made that character based off me yet

 

[Zigsta]

Bowser talk somewhere else made me think of Zigsta.
I miss Zigsta, have you made that character based off me yet

Miss ya too, Slush! I haven't yet written a character based on you yet, but rest assured that I haven't forgot!

 

[Sinister Slush]

I await the day for it to happen.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Ha, this was posted to our local Facebook group. When only the opponent is hit once in a blue moon during flying slam, you get reset to a neutral position in the air. The CPU knew the opponent was right behind him, so it chose to Bair. But I think Dair is the best move to use should this ever happen in a real match.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Ha, this was posted to our local Facebook group. When only the opponent is hit once in a blue moon during flying slam, you get reset to a neutral position in the air. The CPU knew the opponent was right behind him, so it chose to Bair. But I think Dair is the best move to use should this ever happen in a real match.

To think an Amiibo taught me something!

 

[Jerodak]

The only way I know of making this "consistently" happen is after being stuck with a crash bomb, but... yeah...

 

[Zigsta]

Ha, this was posted to our local Facebook group. When only the opponent is hit once in a blue moon during flying slam, you get reset to a neutral position in the air. The CPU knew the opponent was right behind him, so it chose to Bair. But I think Dair is the best move to use should this ever happen in a real match.

Bair is 100% better than dair in this scenario because the opponent can tech the dair upon hitting the ground.

It is really, really funny to see people freaking out over this, though.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bair is 100% better than dair in this scenario because the opponent can tech the dair upon hitting the ground.

That's true, but I don't think you can guarantee the opponent being sent to the right or left of Bowser. You may know which way Bowser is facing (since it doesn't change during the move), but the opponent really would have to be behind you for a Bair to connect. A Dair will send Bowser up and then crashing down, easily hitting opponents to the immediate sides of him.

The only way I know of making this "consistently" happen is after being stuck with a crash bomb, but... yeah...

It would be a weird mixup option that you'd never guarantee to work. You can't control when your opponent is within grabbing range of flying slam. Even if you did get up in the air in time, I'd hazard a guess that Bowser has at least double the chance of being struck by the item compared to the (usually) smaller opponent. Nobody would expect the move to be interrupted so quickly, but if the Bowser is anticipating it, his reaction will come much sooner after taking a hit than the opponent would think to air dodge or jump. But that's just conjecture.

 

[Jerodak]

It would be a weird mixup option that you'd never guarantee to work. You can't control when your opponent is within grabbing range of flying slam. Even if you did get up in the air in time, I'd hazard a guess that Bowser has at least double the chance of being struck by the item compared to the (usually) smaller opponent. Nobody would expect the move to be interrupted so quickly, but if the Bowser is anticipating it, his reaction will come much sooner after taking a hit than the opponent would think to air dodge or jump. But that's just conjecture.

In the first place the idea of the opponent, and only the opponent being hit mid-flip during a side-b is already a huge stretch, this is just the most likely scenario where that could happen, as far as I can tell. You could also do something similar with Bowser Jr but that's even less likely, you have to pick up the mecha koopa, drop and regrab it, then grab jr.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Was Smashing with some friends during class breaks on the 3DS version.

Took out my Bowser for about two of those matches.

One was vs . Aside from the guy being a good player himself, Fox gave me trouble until I started reading his moves. And when I was in the lead stock-wise(4 stock), I managed to Bowsercide twice: once to reset the percentages and another to end the match.
It was fun seeing him fall for it twice.

The second was vs his . By that time the guy had caught on to my tricks and was ready to beat me. He whiffed a few counters, and at one point I began a throwing spree. I was a bit too slow, though, and died to a spike offstage on the last stock.

It was fun.

 

[Corgian]

One was vs . Aside from the guy being a good player himself, Fox gave me trouble until I started reading his moves. And when I was in the lead stock-wise(4 stock), I managed to Bowsercide twice: once to reset the percentages and another to end the match.

Bowser vs Fox is an experience. It's difficult to adapt to how quickly he gets in, and Bowser is a delicious 3-course meal of not stop combo food. Fox lands one dash attack at low percent and we're already at 60%. I tend to play super defensive against him.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Bowser vs Fox is an experience. It's difficult to adapt to how quickly he gets in, and Bowser is a delicious 3-course meal of not stop combo food. Fox lands one dash attack at low percent and we're already at 60%. I tend to play super defensive against him.

Most of the later parts of the match were me reading his Fox Illusion/recovery and drop-kicking/up b-ing in response. You can't afford to try and Fire Breath an offstage Fox either because of the Illusion.

Throws/command grabs on block were fun, too. Sometimes he'd mispredict with a Smash and give a wide opening to grab and Bowsercide(on Unova, just in case you're curious).

 

[Dre89]

Yo am I the only one who thinks Bowser is worse than he was in Brawl. He got buffs, but this engine punishes him harder. He still has the same Brawl problems of getting camped and juggled. He struggles against rushdown characters except this time he eats 30%+ combos everytime. At least in Brawl he had grab releases to get good punishes off. The only two changes that help him are ledge trumping aiding his recovery and rage. Rage is good for Bowser because rage bairs can kill people below 100%, but that's all he's got.

 

[Uncle]

It's a whole lot of give and take with Bowser's transition from Brawl to this game. I feel like more attention has been given to what he's lost than what he's gained, at least on this board. Here's more of a full picture.....

-His Klaw got much worse, but at least he gets access to the ridiculously good Dash Klaw/Dash Slash with customs legal.
-His Jab got shorter, but now it has much more frame advantage.
-His Bowser Bomb is just plain better, period.
-His recovery is just plain better, even when you exclude ledge trump benefits.
-His Fortress no longer has invincibility frames, but it's still a potent defense.
-Rage is awesome for him, like you already said, Dre.
-True chaingrabs no longer exist, and Bowser was one of the most notable victims of them in Brawl.
-Dair is now an actual move with actual situations where it can be actually useful.
-Usmash is better than ever with the shellguard property.
-Grab release followups being gone is bad news. Can't argue with that.
-His dash is noticeably better, and badass to boot.

Smash 4 Bowser is a different beast from Brawl Bowser. You can't play them the same way, and they both have their advantages over each other. Ultimately, Smash 4 Bowser is considered better due to him stacking up against the Smash 4 cast more favorably than Brawl Bowser up against the Brawl cast.

 

[MrEh]

I said months ago that I think Bowser is a worse character that happens to be in a more balanced environment.

When you nerf a character's only good tools, it's hard to appreciate the buffs he got in return. I love frame trap jab shenanigans more then anyone else, believe me. However, without customs, Bowser is pretty horrible.

With customs, he's ok.

 

[Dre89]

I said months ago that I think Bowser is a worse character that happens to be in a more balanced environment.

When you nerf a character's only good tools, it's hard to appreciate the buffs he got in return. I love frame trap jab shenanigans more then anyone else, believe me. However, without customs, Bowser is pretty horrible.

With customs, he's ok.

What are these frame trap jab shenanigans you speak of. Enlighten me please.

 

[MrEh]

Jab 1 is +7 on hit.

You can do Jab 1 into buffered Bowser Bomb or dash grab and it basically beats most forms of mashing. It's pretty damn glorious.


You can also do dtilt or ftilt, but that's a significantly harder link to pull off since it cannot be buffered.

 

[Uncle]

Believe me, I would never try to pass off customless Bowser as good. My "full picture" considers a customs-legal environment, and that's where Smash 4 Bowser truly surpasses Brawl Bowser.