Bowser Counter Pick and Ban Thread- Current Discussion: Marth and Diddy

[Bowser King]

Bowser's Counter Picks and Bans​

This thread is used to choose what stages should be counter picked or banned on what character.

Guideline​

At the end of each summary there will be a "final verdict".

1 Fsmash means it's a bad stage (Stay away!!)---Ban choice

1.5 Fsmashes are really bad stages and should never be used in this matchup---Ban Choice

2 Fsmashes are not very good stages and should be avoided-Ban Choice of there aren't any 1's

2.5 Fsmashes- Not very good stages and have are more in favor for your opponent---Neutral/Below Par

3 Fsmashes- An even stage that's not in favour for either sides- Neutral

3.5 Fsmashes- A stage in your favour, take it if there's nothing better--- Neutral/Above Par

4 Fsmashes- A good stage and very good choice-Counter Pick

4.5-5 Fsmashes- An amazing choice and should be choosen right away- Strong Counterpick

Image by ArcZero

Metaknight

Counter-Final Destination, Smashville
Ban-Rainbow Cruise, Battlefield​

Synopsis- MK:

For MK, ban basically any stage you can not CG on. CG is your shining light, right next to Up B oos. This means, Final Destination and Smashville are usually good choices.

MK will **** you through platforms. Short and sweet. His attacks are generally long range, and that coupled with platforms does not bode well for Bowser at all. You can't CG as efficiently with platforms either, chances are he'll land on one and proceed to own you with a drop through fair or whatever other bs MK has up his sleeve.

Final Destination you have more of a chances. No platforms, plus a chaingrab. MK can't come at you from all angles now, thus greatly reducing the effectiveness of his attacks. Smashville is basically the same, though the moving platform could bother you; but it's pretty slow, so it's not TOO big of a concern.

Rainbow Cruise is also bad. I don't need to explain why, either; ban it.

Frigate Orpheon is pretty bad, too. Though not QUITE as bad as Battlefield, it's way up there. It's platforms aren't as effective as Battlefields; however, the no ledge could cause some problems with gimping.

Final Verdict:

Final Destination: 5/5 Fsmashes
Battlefield: 1/5 Fsmashes
Smashville: 4/5 Fsmashes
Rainbow Cruise: Flubbed fsmash into a punishment ko.

written by: Liquid Gen

Snake

Counter-Smashville
Ban- Battlefield and Lylat Cruise​

Synopsis- Snake;

For snake, you need a stage where you wont be in as big of a threat from c4, mines ect.
Platform stages are a pretty bad choice. His utlit is amazing (though your’s is to) on platforms and so are his many weapons (c4 ect.). However, grenade spam isn’t as effective and that’s a huge plus.
Flat stages allow for you to see the c4’s ect. However, mortar sliding becomes easier as well as grenade spam. Therefore, choice a stage that’s relatively simple and minimizes the above.

Smashville is a good choice. It’s not to small but not to huge for grenade spam. Watch out for the top platform for a moving c4 (!). Other then that this stage isn’t to bad.

Other then that, go for basically non-neutral stages. Snake does really well on those. Don’t go norfair either. Snake can do a lot over there with his weapons.

For banning, go for lylat cruise. The C4’s blend really well and the platforms shape screw’s you over.
DON’T COME HERE. Bad things happen.

Banning Battlefield as another one. His utlit, c4’s are amazing over here. Not to mention that bowser’s weight isn’t as handy, especially against someone like snake.

Final Verdict:

Smashville- 4/5 Fsmashes
Battlefield- 1/5 Fsmashes
Lylat Cruise- -1/5 Fsmashes
Norfair- 2/5 Fsmashes
Final Destination- 2.5/5 Fsmashes

The last choice for a counter pick is pretty optional and should likely be a non-neutral stage.

Falco

Counter-Battlefield or Norfair
Ban-Jungle Japes, Lylat Cruise (Gen's idea) or Final Destination (if you hate lazers)​

Synopsis- Falco:

For falco, don't choose a stage that's good for chaingrabs, spikes and lazers (I know that's a lot of stuff but If you can get around those 3 things, you will be able to do a lot better in the matchup).

Let's start with lazers. He will lazer you to force an approach (nothing new for bowser) but flaco’s blaster is a real pain. If you play smart you wont have much trouble with them but that doesn’t mean that they don’t raise the heat. Basically watch out for them and find a stage that can get help you get around them.

Chaingrab isn’t as bad. You can get out with whirling fortress (?) but it’s pretty hard to do (practice makes perfect). If you get trouble with getting out then your basically in for quite a bit of damage. If it’s on the edge, it leads to our next problem the spike.

The spike on itself isn’t THAT bad (invincibility frames on fortress help a great deal) but when added with chain grab it gets pretty bad. Choose a stage that won’t harm you to much in the process of chain grabs and spikes. There not something you can’t get around but when you can’t they can be a pain.

Battlefield is a good choice. You can get around lazers through multiple ways. The stage is also small so you shouldn’t worry much about that. You can keep the pressure high and it will be easier to get falco offstage. When it’s at the point of recovering, pull out the fire. Battlefield is an overall good stage because of the common things like bowser and his ability to destroy people on the platforms.

Norfair is another stage that will help out. Lazers aren’t much trouble because the multiple ledges and , if your lucky, the fire might be up when he’s trying to go for a spike (you’ll take damage but it’s better then losing a stock). On a random note, watch out for falco’s moves like shine when trying to approach from a lower platform to a higher.

Don’t go japes. The spike will eat you hear if your not ready for it and even then, if your anywhere near the water your in a danger zone. Lazer spam is amazing, Getting from one end to falco is a huge hassle because if you do get there, you’ve only won a bit of the battle. Plus, he can peck you with lazers into the water or farther away and then can get really frustrating when trying to approach a character who has the advantage either way.

FD is a so-so stage. It’s not to bad because on offstage falco is a falco that’s not in a good positon. Go here if you want the space (at the cost of lazers). If your good at getting around projectiles (which you should be as a bowser main ). The chain grab to spike is lame blah blah blah. You know that by now

Final Verdict-

Battlefield- 4/5 Fsmashes
Norfair- 4/5 Fsmashes
----
Jungle Japes- 1.5/5 Fsmashes
Lylat Cruise- 2(?) Fsmashes
FD- 3-3.5 Fsmashes

King Dedede
Counter-
Ban-

Mr. Game and Watch
Counter-
Ban-

Marth
Counter-
Ban-

Diddy Kong
Counter-
Ban-

Wario
Counter-
Ban-

Rob
Counter-
Ban-

Lucario
Counter-
Ban-

Olimar
Counter-
Ban-

Pikachu
Counter-
Ban-

Kirby
Counter-
Ban-

Donkey Kong
Counter-
Ban-

Ice Climbers
Counter-
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Zero Suit Samus
Counter-
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Toon Link
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Ban-

Pit
Counter-
Ban-

Peach
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Ban-

Wolf
Counter-
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Luigi
Counter-
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Zelda
Counter-
Ban-

Bowser
Counter-
Ban-

Fox
Counter-
Ban-

:shiek:

Shiek
Counter-
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Ike
Counter-
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Mario
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Lucas
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Ness
Counter-
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Samus
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Sonic
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Pokemon Trainer
Counter-
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Yoshi
Counter-
Ban-

Link
Counter-
Ban-

Jigglypuff
Counter-
Ban-

Ganondorf
Counter-
Ban-

Falcon
Counter-
Ban-

---


Good Stages



Norfair - This stage is great because it helps stop bowser-gimping, allows bowser to space his moves and the stacked platforms are great for hitting someone on a higher platform then you.


Smashville - small stage, fairly open, with a platform if you need it. The moving platform allows you to mow people down with fire from above. Grab releases are very easy to do here. you're favorite neutral

Castle Siege - during all stage changes, as well as when you are on the second stage, you can grab release people off the side for an easy ko. small stage, hard to get camped here, just don't cp dedede here

Corneria - the ceiling in here is LOW, really LOW, upb kills early, usmash kills early, utilt kills early, uair pretty much just kills

Pokemon Stadium 1 - not really sure, bowser's just really fun on this stage


Situational Counterpicks



Final Destination- good for metaknight and wario

Frigate Orpheon - for the tether characters, and other people who rely on ledges

Battlefield - good for campy characters, rob, falco, snake, NOT olimar, TAKE OLI ELSEWHERE, BAD THINGS HAPPEN ON THIS STAGE



Bad stages



Yoshi's Island - the central platform makes it very easy for people to camp you, i just never liked this stage

Jungle Japes - very high ceiling, so all your ko moves are no good, water kills you and it says mean things about your mother, all in all, you probably wanna ban either this or rainbow cruise

Rainbow Cruise - this fabulous stage doesn't stop moving, and you will occasionally die because of it, good luck



------

Thanks to the TL boards for the idea.

itsthebigfoot for being so cool with this. He also made the original thread where I took some info out of.

 

[Bowser King]

Informative posts​

METAKNIGHT

For MK, ban basically any stage you can not CG on (or one that ***** you). I would suggest banning either Battlefield, Frigate, Rainbow Cruise, etc. Platforms on BF PLUS no ledge on Frigate. Those are the top two, imo.

For a CP, definitely Final Destination. You can chain grab him, he cant attack through platforms, etc. Basically, FD is your best bet, and Smashville is close behind it (though the CG is slightly less effective).

For more in depth Battlefield:

Metaknight's attacks are **** through platforms; namely forward air, back air, and up air (on occasion rising down air and neutral air). These will destroy you whether you like it or not. If you shield them, Metaknight will probably try to fast fall to avoid punishment from Fortress (though is this possible?). But he can simply avoid the Fortress by going with up air instead, as it's range out ranges Fortress. He can also tornado you from under the platform anyway, and without a proper way to use fire, you can't out prioritize it. You could keep your shield out for the whole duration, but you'd eat it up in the process.

Even if Metaknight ***** you with platforms already, it gets worse. With the hinderance of platforms, you can not grab release chaingrab Metaknight at all. He'll land on a platform and happily own you with down smash. Don't try it.

Basically he lives on Battlefield. Avoid it. At all costs.

For Frigate Orpheon, take everything I just said and replace "Battlefield" with Frigate. PLUS a ledge that doesn't work.

For FD:

Bowser> Metaknight on this stage, when played right. Grab him every opportunity you have so you can CG his *** all over. When you get the edge, fall off and fair his *** to next week. Plus, he's on your level the whole fight. He has no tactical height advantage on you this time. Plan your attacks out, beat his tornado with fire, punish well, and space good, too.

ALSO LOLOLOL SIDE B GOES THROGUH TORNADO

Another stage that you could consider banning is Rainbow Cruise. It gives you rarely any times to chaingrab and forces you into the air where MK will **** you.

All in all i say ban BF or RC and counterpick FD

Ban BF as fast as possible.

Most Meta players won't bother banning FD, so that's your pick.

I think in the MK matchup, close KO boundaries are bad, one of Bowser's main strengths in that matchup is that he lives so long compared to MK and one Shuttle Loop or reverse D Smash near the edge of Halberd and that advantage is gone.

-------------------

Snake

If you go Norfair against a Snake, you're on heroin or something.

Never, ever go there.

Also, Snake loves Neutral Stages, so avoid bringing him to those.

When I play Snake, (as Snake, not against mind you though the match up has come up) I try to use the C4 on stage as little as possible, usually only when I think I can plant it with little notice (you'd be surprised how often you'll miss it). A great stage for the C4 is on Smashville. Nothing like a nice moving platform to explode at a moments notice. :D But the reason why I try not to use the C4 on stage is for recovery purposes. As long as I don't fast fall (easy to do x_x) I can use it to recover the UpB.

As for the trip mines, I usally don't bother with them, Smashville and other such small/platformed staged excluded because I usally don't have the time and because everyone has a way to deal with it anyway.

It's the nades that are the real danger. Whether it's been dropped and rolled away from or held and cooked for a nice boom upon impact.

Also, the UpTilt kills at ~100% for most characters.

So, basically, stay away from small stages. However, larger stages cause more draw distance if you happen to be far away from your opponent, making it harder to see if he's set C4. :/

Bowser has at least one advantage and that is his lone projectile. Snake has one as well but I've yet to really see Nakita used since the game first came out. Spacing is of huge importance.

So, can't be too large nor too small and the less platforms the better.

One thing I know of, ban Lylat if it's playable. Because of the way the stage is layered C4 and trip mines just freakin' disapper! O.o

EDIT: I may reply with more later if I can/feel like it.

for snake ban lylat or bf he is god there.frigate may be a good counter.easy horizantal kills and with snake's recovery it should make easy pickens for an easy fair death over the stage.also he is limited to a small area where if he messes up with nades or c4 then he has the risk of gettin hit easily by his own stuff.

 

[Liquid Gen]

For MK, ban basically any stage you can not CG on (or one that ***** you). I would suggest banning either Battlefield, Frigate, Rainbow Cruise, etc. Platforms on BF PLUS no ledge on Frigate. Those are the top two, imo.

For a CP, definitely Final Destination. You can chain grab him, he cant attack through platforms, etc. Basically, FD is your best bet, and Smashville is close behind it (though the CG is slightly less effective).

For more in depth Battlefield:

Metaknight's attacks are **** through platforms; namely forward air, back air, and up air (on occasion rising down air and neutral air). These will destroy you whether you like it or not. If you shield them, Metaknight will probably try to fast fall to avoid punishment from Fortress (though is this possible?). But he can simply avoid the Fortress by going with up air instead, as it's range out ranges Fortress. He can also tornado you from under the platform anyway, and without a proper way to use fire, you can't out prioritize it. You could keep your shield out for the whole duration, but you'd eat it up in the process.

Even if Metaknight ***** you with platforms already, it gets worse. With the hinderance of platforms, you can not grab release chaingrab Metaknight at all. He'll land on a platform and happily own you with down smash. Don't try it.

Basically he lives on Battlefield. Avoid it. At all costs.

For Frigate Orpheon, take everything I just said and replace "Battlefield" with Frigate. PLUS a ledge that doesn't work.

For FD:

Bowser> Metaknight on this stage, when played right. Grab him every opportunity you have so you can CG his *** all over. When you get the edge, fall off and fair his *** to next week. Plus, he's on your level the whole fight. He has no tactical height advantage on you this time. Plan your attacks out, beat his tornado with fire, punish well, and space good, too.

ALSO LOLOLOL SIDE B GOES THROGUH TORNADO

 

[Bowser King]

I was thinking along the lines of that to. Also, ban moving stages. You can rarely get a good chance to CG and when you get the chance, the MK can play it safer. Bowsers also really bad at moving stages and MK, with his multi-jumps and great air game, is actually quite good.

-Bowser King

 

[Hobobloke]

Gen summed it up pretty well another stage that you could consider banning is Rainbow Cruise. It gives you rarely any times to chaingrab and forces you into the air where NK will **** you.

All in all i say ban BF or RC and counterpick FD

 

[MrEh]

Ban BF as fast as possible.

Most Meta players won't bother banning FD, so that's your pick.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

you copied my thread >.>

i'd at least like my name in the credits and a witty title

 

[Hobobloke]

Your name is in the credits.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Have you guys ever tried shielding an aerial while on a platform, then dropping through it and doing the Forward B? I find this works wonders. It just takes some technical skill and quick fingers, but it's possible and can really help punish people when they have you above a platform. Just drop shield, fast fall and forward B.

 

[Liquid Gen]

^ Sadly, on Metaknight that isn't applicable. Though I do it on many other characters while on BF. It is pretty useful.

 

[Bowser King]

Your name is in the credits.

This.


lol

Anyway, I think taking MK to FD is the best bet. Smashville can be chosen to but it's all up to personal preference (aka trade of easier kills for harder CG).

-Bowser King

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Would Halberd be good due to a low ceiling (very early KOs, especially forward B'ing MK onto the platform), or would it be bad because you may actually die early?

 

[Blistering Speed]

I think in the MK matchup, close KO boundaries are bad, one of Bowser's main strengths in that matchup is that he lives so long compared to MK and one Shuttle Loop or reverse D Smash near the edge of Halberd and that advantage is gone.

 

[Liquid Gen]

This.

Plus, Halberd's platform will **** you like Battlefield, though not quite as badly.

 

[Bowser King]

Since the MK discussion still alive I think it would be good to do 2 characters a week.

I think it would be pretty easy to do and it would allow better discussions on the topic.

-Bowser King

 

[Liquid Gen]

^ Good idea.

More text for me to write lol.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Most Meta players won't bother banning FD, so that's your pick.

What if they ban FD? Smashville? And what if they ban both? Is there a better stage than FD or Smashville vs MK?

 

[Liquid Gen]

^ Pick an equally flat stage; Pokemon Stadium Melee is good too, though you might not be able to CG as long.


ALSO: For Snack

Snake is really hard to beat, but if you work hard it becomes a whole lot easier. My Bowser can stand up to Tapion's Snake, so I guess thats a plus?

Basically, think like this:

-Mines go on platforms. If you pick a platformed stage, be wary of where they are and if given time blow em up with fire breath.

-Grenade camping is easily beaten by either:
A) Throwing the grenades back to Snake
B) Run straight through his grenades and punish him with a side B or grab (try to throw, not grab release because chances are the grenade will be on the floor and you want out of there quickly).

Snake's up tilt is gay through platforms, but yours is too. His mortar can be a pain but a maneuvered neutral air will take care of that.

So to pick a stage with platforms, the matchup is somewhat even (55-45, I would say), not completely even since Snake has his C4 and mines to play with.

For flat stages, i believe it is completely even, though it is listed as 60-40 Snake. Speaking for FD, his mine is not as effective as C4; it is more visible and you can easily fire it. However, Snake's mortarslide will **** you if you don't see it coming. Keep in your shield when expecting attacks; the Snake will probably try to mindgame you into safety and leave him self open.

So basically for Snake, BAN LYLAT CRUISE. Snake is just too good there.

Generally every neutral stage is fine for Snake (or at least the Snakes I have played).

 

[SuSa]

If you go Norfair against a Snake, you're on heroin or something.

Never, ever go there.

Also, Snake loves Neutral Stages, so avoid bringing him to those.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Hmm, I do fairly well against Snack on Norfair/Neutrals. And I've fought you on one, in which I did pretty well.


Since Snake is such a broad character I guess it really depends?

 

[SuSa]

Depends how well the Snake utilizes the Stage.

I did poorly with my stage control, so you did fairly well. I've also learned a few tricks and tips in platform stages, and my Snake's improved on Norfair.

I used it in tourney as my CP, because its just too good.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Hm.

Im sure online contributes a lot, as I'm sure stage control is much more difficult online?

 

[SuSa]

It wasn't on my mind until the latter half of the match (when I started doing much better).

Also, I try not to be omnigay online. I didn't camp you to oblivion like most Snake's would.

 

[Bowser King]

I guess were done MK.

CP-Final Destination, Smashville
Ban- Rainbow Cruise, Battlefield

Agreed?

-Bowser King

 

[SuSa]

What about Luigi's Mansion?

Ban that crap if its legal.

 

[B!squick]

When I play Snake, (as Snake, not against mind you though the match up has come up) I try to use the C4 on stage as little as possible, usually only when I think I can plant it with little notice (you'd be surprised how often you'll miss it). A great stage for the C4 is on Smashville. Nothing like a nice moving platform to explode at a moments notice. :D But the reason why I try not to use the C4 on stage is for recovery purposes. As long as I don't fast fall (easy to do x_x) I can use it to recover the UpB.

As for the trip mines, I usally don't bother with them, Smashville and other such small/platformed staged excluded because I usally don't have the time and because everyone has a way to deal with it anyway.

It's the nades that are the real danger. Whether it's been dropped and rolled away from or held and cooked for a nice boom upon impact.

Also, the UpTilt kills at ~100% for most characters.

So, basically, stay away from small stages. However, larger stages cause more draw distance if you happen to be far away from your opponent, making it harder to see if he's set C4. :/

Bowser has at least one advantage and that is his lone projectile. Snake has one as well but I've yet to really see Nakita used since the game first came out. Spacing is of huge importance.

So, can't be too large nor too small and the less platforms the better.

One thing I know of, ban Lylat if it's playable. Because of the way the stage is layered C4 and trip mines just freakin' disapper! O.o

EDIT: I may reply with more later if I can/feel like it.

 

[SuSa]

JayDeth has never seen me play /nikita

Or Ally /mines

or Razer / c4

... <_<

 

[B!squick]

Nope, sure haven't, lol. Is it brutal? Vids maybe? 'Cause I only play Snake casually.

 

[Seagull Joe]

for snake ban lylat or bf he is god there.frigate may be a good counter.easy horizantal kills and with snake's recovery it should make easy pickens for an easy fair death over the stage.also he is limited to a small area where if he messes up with nades or c4 then he has the risk of gettin hit easily by his own stuff.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Bowser King, I feel we should update this thread with a summary of MK and Snake; unless of course you need more input.


We should get a sticky when this is completed; or more info. til then I believe it's fine.

 

[Bowser King]

Bowser King, I feel we should update this thread with a summary of MK and Snake; unless of course you need more input.


We should get a sticky when this is completed; or more info. til then I believe it's fine.

I'm pretty busy right now

If you don't mind could you right up a summary?


pleaseeee....

-Bowser King

 

[Liquid Gen]

Alright. I'm at a hospital public computer atm, so when I get home I'll write it up.

Or, I could do it now so I don't have to later lol.

 

[Bowser King]

Thanks

Were discussing Falco now

-Bowser King

 

[Jim Morrison]

ban jungle japes. do not pick FD. go Battlefield.

my basics, will tell why later even though its obvious.

 

[B!squick]

It's usually a good idea to ban Japes regardless of the match up though. I don't think Bowser has ANY good match ups there.

 

[Hobobloke]

Ban Final Destination and jungle japes.

FD - he can camp you all day not to mention CG to spike

JJ - he can stay on the side platforms and have a campfest forcing you to approach and his spike+water=ouch

CP battlefield or norfair

BF - he cant camp and you can keep the pressure on him

Norfair - ......need i explain.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

FD is a much better stage against Falco than Japes. At least on FD you can chain grab him to an offstage fair without any stage stage interference. I'm not saying that FD is good against Falco, but it's not as bad as Japes

 

[S_B]

Any stage where you can push Falco out of his ability to laser the bejeezus out of you, you'll be better off.

 

[Bowser King]

I'll have the snake summary later on today.

-Bowser King

 

[Liquid Gen]

I find it necessary to mention FD is not a bad choice vs. Falco. I have little trouble than normal on FD. Learn to get past the lasers, learn to deal with the CG, it's not as bad as you think. Smashville is the same.

It's all about the matchup.