Boozer Matchup Discussion

[BurtonEarny]

Fire breath is everything vs DK. A sh neutral B is the only way for Big B. to get around DKs down B, which outranges pretty much everything bowser has. Also DKs Tilts > Bowsers tilts...

65:35 for DK?

I'll go with that

 

[MrEh]

65:35 for DK?

That seems about right. I think the DK boards would agree too, since that's another green matchup for DK. ^^

In short, it comes down to DK out ranging Bowser and having aerial priority,

 

[eyestrain92]

Wow. I've never really noticed an issue against DK, for the fact he's a punishable, heavyweight character.

You can gimp him, and you have a ranged attack. That ALONE means a lot to this match up. I think it's much more even. The Bowser can almost CAMP using fire waves, and you CAN smack him if you mind-game him. He's faster and has beastly long arms, but yours are pretty **** close and probably twice as strong.

60:40 for DK at the most, personally I think it's less though.

 

[MrEh]

Wow. I've never really noticed an issue against DK, for the fact he's a punishable, heavyweight character.

But so is Bowser, and therein lies the problem.

You can gimp him, and you have a ranged attack. That ALONE means a lot to this match up. I think it's much more even. The Bowser can almost CAMP using fire waves, and you CAN smack him if you mind-game him.

The Fire is awesome on DK, I think we can all agree on that. However, you can't shoot fire forever, and you're definately not going to be able to shoot fire while DK is beating the crap out of you in the air. ><

He's faster and has beastly long arms, but yours are pretty **** close and probably twice as strong.

Bowser's tilts are still important, but DK's are just...well...better in this fight. His Dtilt is utter evil. ><

 

[eyestrain92]

See? You could argue either way. That's why I'm supporting at most a 10/-10 difference. The two seem to be able to fight pretty equally, trading off advantages as the match turns out. They're pretty much equal in the way the Mario Bros. aren't too different. Maybe one has slightly better potential, but not enough to swing the match one way.

EDIT: You also didn't do your Bowser matchup. I'm pretty sure we all know it's about 1/99 in Bowser's favor. Bowser doesn't really have much options against Bowser, because Bowser can shut down everything you have. Bowser will hurt you. Bowser is a scary match up here.

 

[BurtonEarny]

See? You could argue either way. That's why I'm supporting at most a 10/-10 difference. The two seem to be able to fight pretty equally, trading off advantages as the match turns out. They're pretty much equal in the way the Mario Bros. aren't too different. Maybe one has slightly better potential, but not enough to swing the match one way.

EDIT: You also didn't do your Bowser matchup. I'm pretty sure we all know it's about 1/99 in Bowser's favor. Bowser doesn't really have much options against Bowser, because Bowser can shut down everything you have. Bowser will hurt you. Bowser is a scary match up here.

no its not arguable. Dk's tilts >(in range) bowser's tilts
this makes fire your only "safe" option of aproach, but once that is over you are going to eat a tilt or grab. D.k. has a stagering amount of power jusk like bowser, and with better reach. The only thing bowser has on dk is fire and that just doesn't make up for his reach and speed disadvantages.

 

[darkspatan117]

Dk is better execpt against ddd

 

[eyestrain92]

I've never been panicked against DK's. They're every bit as predictable as Bowser himself, and considering you DO have fire, it's all about player capability. You could place this as a disadvantaged fight, but I'll never stop believing me'self >_>

 

[BurtonEarny]

every bit as predictable with the crutch of better range. So long as the d.k. plays smart you wont really ever have many options.

 

[MrEh]

Not to mention that DK has aerial priority.

In the air, DK can destroy Bowser with Uairs and Dairs.

 

[BurtonEarny]

when is the next char coming?

 

[MrEh]

Next matchup was added.

I really don't think there's much to say though. ><

 

[BurtonEarny]

Falco. This char has been great since his smash debut, unfortunatly for bowser he is too great. Bowser always has problems with charcters that dont have to come into range of a jab, tilt, or even upb oos to lay on the damage. Falco has the ability to put bowser into the kill percentages by simply not aproaching and stoping all of his aproaches with his reflector and/or laser. Not to mention a falco can chain grab you into spike, but early in a stock you shouldn't find this killing you if you immediatly fortress after the spike.(shouldn't)
Lets take a look at what aproaches bowser has on falco. Well bowser could normally use an arial sh as an aproach, unfortunatly if you try this you will either eat a laser shot or two OR you get a reflector in the face. Also as an aproach, bowser likes to try is a sh'd firebreath, this aproach is completly destroyed by the reflector not to mention you also get hit with the fire... not fun. Bowser walking in and tilting can also be used as an aproach, but since flacos lazer and reflector aren't hitboxes, they go right through your move. Are you noticing a trend? Basically bowser is shut down completly by those two moves.
Once off the level, though, falco becomes easy to deal with thanks to his horrible recovery going at an angle. Also, falco is light making getting him into the killing percents easy, but you wont find yourself hitting him often if the falco plays right. Basically, this not a good one for you AT ALL. You lose all aproaches and that pretty much gurantees you lose. Expect to lose when you see this matchup... its really that bad, 20- 80 or 30- 70 in falcos favor bad.

 

[Flayl]

I'm sorry fellas but we're not getting any input from known tournament-placing bowsers. I really don't think it's fair to make a matchup discussion like this, specially when this thread is being used for the matchup chart in tactical discussion.

Ask KishSquared and Sliq before making conclusions.

 

[BurtonEarny]

I'm sorry fellas but we're not getting any input from known tournament-placing bowsers. I really don't think it's fair to make a matchup discussion like this, specially when this thread is being used for the matchup chart in tactical discussion.

Ask KishSquared and Sliq before making conclusions.

stfu, why the hell does sliq have to be the only person to contribute to the boards? I'm telling you people around here are on his tit bad. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve the credit or whatever, but if you are trying to say that we cant see that bowser gets beat by a flaco or a d.k. just as well as him, then you have never played one. Its not hard to learn matchups, you just have to play them against players that are worth a crap. If we waited on sliq to do everything for us then, through no fault of his own, we would never advance as a community... When was the last time you even saw him post? People need to experimant and play and learn as a community. You hit a raw subject with me on that one. Your way of thinking would bring bowser's metagame to a halt(not that it going fast as it is). So tell you what... why dont we all just not post anymore and only let sliq and kish post on the bowser boards since they are the only ones who can play a game and use common sense, reasoning, and form basic understandings about said game.

 

[Flayl]

Haha, look at you raging and making asinine assumptions. Sucking on sliq's teat? What are you on about? Do you think the Dedede boards base their matchup discussions without having Aero/Romeo/JTB tournament results in mind? I'm not asking you to shut up and let the more experienced players do the talking, I'm asking you to use some god**** common sense and check with someone before marking a character as a x/10 on the difficulty scale. For example (an the reason I made this post) is that both of the tournament placing bowsers that ever visited these boards think Falco, although a disadvantage for Bowser, is nowhere near a hard counter. Whose judgement do you think I'm going to trust more, yours or theirs?

Really, only three people in this thread are discussing the matchups. I choose not to because I'm strictly a wifi player, and wifi sucks balls against projectile characters, among other things. Simply put it's really not cut out for Bowser. Can we at least get some evidence for the theory posted here, like videos against DECENT players?

And FYI I have created several threads to help advance Bowser's metagame, but these forums aren't exactfully helpful. Everybody can say "nice work" but when it comes to doing an effort I can't get anybody to give a ****.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

100:0 for Falco...?

OK, it's not that bad but 20:80 isn't out of the Question...

 

[BurtonEarny]

Haha, look at you raging and making asinine assumptions. Sucking on sliq's teat? What are you on about? Do you think the Dedede boards base their matchup discussions without having Aero/Romeo/JTB tournament results in mind? I'm not asking you to shut up and let the more experienced players do the talking, I'm asking you to use some god**** common sense and check with someone before marking a character as a x/10 on the difficulty scale. For example (an the reason I made this post) is that both of the tournament placing bowsers that ever visited these boards think Falco, although a disadvantage for Bowser, is nowhere near a hard counter. Whose judgement do you think I'm going to trust more, yours or theirs?

Really, only three people in this thread are discussing the matchups. I choose not to because I'm strictly a wifi player, and wifi sucks balls against projectile characters, among other things. Simply put it's really not cut out for Bowser. Can we at least get some evidence for the theory posted here, like videos against DECENT players?

And FYI I have created several threads to help advance Bowser's metagame, but these forums aren't exactfully helpful. Everybody can say "nice work" but when it comes to doing an effort I can't get anybody to give a ****.

Okay, well how about we post our opinions until the time that sliq deems it appropriate to swing by and give a thumbs up or down? And if you want sliq's opinions on the match up then here it is http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187393&page=7
browse this and the next page and you will see that I did not go against what he said at ALL. the only difference is he calls it an annoying match up and I call it a hard one. He touched on the lasers being a problem and how you shouldn't find yourself dieing to a chaingrab spike... I also said that. I'm not trying to take away from the god status that you hold him at, but you need to see that other people have knowledge on the matchup. Its always going to be nice to have the him contribute to a thread, but he hasn't as of now, and hasn't posted on the bowser boards for a while. Be thankful that the people who are discussing the matchups are knowledgeable and aren't saying "spam the fsmash its good". And sliq if your reading this I hope you DO give your opinions on the matchup... but since we havent been called out yet for not knowing what we are talking about, then we can't be too far off the mark. And yes, this board sucks his teat partially because half of the bowser community is noobs with 4 posts that say "sliq can tilt OMG" *blows load in pants*. The other half sees him as a very good player(myself), but not enough people think for themselves. And thanks for trying to further bowser meta by posting vids and things... he NEEDS it, but you should still contribute to the matchup thread. The more people with a clue that discuss it the more improtant issues wont be overlooked. Do I think that every little noob needs to be posting here, no. Do i think that people who know what they are talking about need to post and try to further disscusion and add depth, yes.

Update: I just pm'd sliq and kevinM, and am going to post kish and asked them to stop by and give their opinions... I'm not against them contributing, I'm just not going to wait for it when I know I have a good understanding of the matchups.

 

[KevinM]

Um, why did you guys say 65-35 for DK

without mentioning his Back-Air which is basically anti-bowser.

80-20 DK easily.

A good DK has so many options against Bowser, his tilts and his B-air brutalize Bowser, to the point where it's not funny. His B-air can simply be used to approach just out of range or to jump out of shield and punish or to retreat with, not to mention his easy stage spike that Bowser is prone to or the giant punch set-ups that happen anywhere from I believe like 50 percent to 80.

DK ***** Bowser maybe even worse then Falco, I'll get to Falco later.

Got your PM Burt ^_^

 

[BurtonEarny]

Thanks. now can we all just get along?

 

[MrEh]

Um, why did you guys say 65-35 for DK

without mentioning his Back-Air which is basically anti-bowser.

80-20 DK easily.

I mentioned the Bair a couple of times...

*EDIT*
I made a typo a few posts back. I meant to say Bair instead of Dair. *slaps self*

DK's Bair is sexy though. Huge hixbox, and it comes out fast.


I guess I never realized exactly how much DK owned Bowser. Oh well, I guess I'll change the matchup to make things seem more realistic.

 

[Tyser]

Can it be Olimar time now?

 

[eyestrain92]

So tell you what... why dont we all just not post anymore and only let sliq and kish post on the bowser boards since they are the only ones who can play a game and use common sense, reasoning, and form basic understandings about said game.

This is why I hate people like Yuna. If it didn't come from someone who's got a massive reputation, or someone with an ego to mask the lack of it, they're flamed. These boards are mod'd by trolls.

Falco isn't as horribly put as you had it at. I have actual experience against someone much greater than me, and his lasers and reflector are not exactly, a threat, they are annoying. They pepper you, but the chaingrab is about the most threatening thing he has. He's not powerful enough to be scary. He's light and that's a definate advantage in Bowser's favor.

Annoying can go a long way, however, and anyone who spams these two tactics has efficiently brickwalled any inexperienced Bowser. Hell, in all situations there's not much you can do but take the damage. Just keep above his lasers, or below depending on the terrain, and air dodge and spot dodge intelligently.

I'm saying 70:30 in Falco's favor, if not 65:35.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Annoying seems to be the prefered word when refering to the laser/ reflector. I must ask then, what do you use to get in at them? i must be missing something, because I dont find the chaingrab that threatening at all as long as you spike cancel, but I HATE the laserflector. So, there must be a way around it that I'm unaware of, so someone enlighten me, because trying to avoid the laserflector just gets me into a position to get punished in a worse way. Clearly I'm a pessimist though, and hopefully I can be enlightened. Btw, thanks all for helping out with this disscusion. I asked some more well known players to give their thoughts, because I wanted the matchup to be as closely analyzed as possible to please everyone and to get hopefully the most acurate matchup rating as possible. Hopefully everyone will be content with what we decide is the appropriate ratings of matchups.

 

[MrEh]

i must be missing something, because I dont find the chaingrab that threatening at all as long as you spike cancel

It's not really the spike the bothers me.

It's just the damage it deals. Going from 0% to 50% in less then 10 seconds is not cool.

 

[KevinM]

Thanks. now can we all just get along?

Yeah sure.. can I go back to Melee now? I'll pop in whenever you need me guys just someone PM me on a match-up ^_^

 

[Tyser]

Uhh, what is a spike cancel?

EDIT: NVM, you meant meteor cancel ehh?

 

[BurtonEarny]

It's not really the spike the bothers me.

It's just the damage it deals. Going from 0% to 50% in less then 10 seconds is not cool.

not cool, but for bowser its managable since you can live to very high percents. Also, as long as you stay spaced right, falco should have trouble landing a killing blow while you can tilt and jab to your hearts content. (but both the laser and reflector can help set it up though its still a challenge) I really think that those two moves alone give bowser the disadvantage, otherwise it wouldn't be so bad, because really without the ability to get in and strick a killing move, 50 percent, especailly on bowser is negligable. Bowser just hates characters that dont have to aproach to do damage, always will.

meteor canceling (spike cancel)- using your upb immediatly after a spike to *hopefully* cancel the downward motion of the spike. Early on in a stock, basically when a falco can chaingrab and spike, you can use this to avoid a death.

Oh and KevinM thanks again... as you were. We'll be more than glad to p.m. you again when it becomes nessesary.

 

[eyestrain92]

Yeah, the main reason I'm irritated by the chain-grab so much is the fact I didn't know you could UpB out of it. Personal ignorance. The damage it deals is still not that fun either, being as it's still a decent amount of damage.

Burton, it's more or less as I stated, it's coping with it and not letting it bother you enough. It's main effect is on your mindset; if you think it's so horrible and you can't get around it, sure enough, energy will follow thought and play a detriment to your game. There's ways around the reflector, and more than likely the Falco knows the danger of your range and will instead try to get away. Remember, I also said there's not much you can do but take the damage. Same with the chaingrab. They're both really annoying, but I found the chaingrab worse because, as said, I didn't know you could fortress out of it. I put his match-up about right where I believe most will agree, 7:3 to 6.5:3.5-ish.

 

[MrEh]

I personally thing the match is something like 20-80 or 25-75. It's not unwinnable, but it's going to take some very good playing.

A little tip: use the fire.

Yes, he can reflect it back at you, but it makes a very awesome edgeguard, especially against Falco's recovery. If he tries to Phantasm the ledge, blow fire. If he tries to Phantasm on to the stage and through you, blow fire anyway. His Phantasm will not go through your fire.

 

[BurtonEarny]

well fortressing out of the spike takes away falcos chance to legitimatly kill you early, without that he has to wait to lazeyflector( because falco can spam the laser and reflector and be LAZY) forever and then punish with a kill move. I lean more toward the 6.5/ 3.5 falco side, simply because people with more knowledge on the mathcup seem to think the lazyflector is annoying not destroying(but this still reflects a pretty bad matchup), and now everyone knows you can meteor cancel... might want to mention that in the matchup summary since some people just dont know about it.

i think that its just one of my worst matchups... at least I know why lol.

 

[MrEh]

Falco still has superior air game though.

He could short hop Dair, and then use something like his Dsmash, Utilt, or Jab immediately afterwards. When confronted with this, Bowser has severe issues handling this sort of aerial pressure.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Falco's Shine also destroys Bowsers ground game...

 

[-Kagato-]

Fighting a Falco isn't an issue because of the chaingrab into the spike since you can cancel to safety and also escape a grab by whirling fortress, assuming the timing for the chaingrab is thrown off somehow.

What is an issue is Falco's camping game which becomes a problem on stages with few platforms to escape to. Also, when fighting up close, you need to be spot-on with your spacing distance. It's not impossible, but it's extremely difficult to fight Falco.

 

[eyestrain92]

I feel a bit less concerned with his aerial game. It's possible to get close to him and through his reflector. Fairs are neat on this matchup. This is also one where the Bomb can win. With the amount Falco should be bouncing for lazer spam, sometimes a Bomb from the ground can devastate. Try that out if you feel daring.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Can the bomb jump over the SHDL -> Shine?

 

[MrEh]

A big problem in this matchup is that Falco has so many ways to approach you.


He could choose not to and shoot laser at you.

He could choose to use his dash attack, then dash attack cancel into his Up Smash.

He could choose to short hop into one of his aerials.

He could choose to run or short hop near you, then use his reflector.

He could try to grab you, pretty much guaranteeing that you're going to get chaingrabbed.


It's a bad situation.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ most of these options can be shieldgrabbed. Only Shine works 100% against Big Booza. But seriously, you'll never see a Falco approaching and certainly not Bowser.

 

[eyestrain92]

Save the laser. Not like you can shieldgrab a laser >_>

Thus bringing us back to the point: it's mainly his laser and reflector that are bothering people.

 

[MrEh]

Someone needs to test whether or not Falco can escape Bowser's chaingrab with his reflector.