Blazing Player, Cinderace for Smash!

LightKnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
274
If Cinderace is a pick I wonder if they'd try adjusting the release to perhaps next summer or whenever the Olympics end up happening. That wouldn't likely be the primary factor but just a thought.

Oh, and I know I said I was making a moveset but its not finished yet still sooo we'll see..
 

MajestyIndigo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
462
Location
France
Is Cinderace one of your top 6 favorite Pokemon ?

I've been asked by a friend of mine who my 6 are ( so that she could make a drawing for me ), but I can't decide wether I prefer my good old Ninetales or Cinderace as my fire type now. :/
 

LightKnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
274
Who, me? I actually don't care that much for Cinderace. The Pokemon might grow on me overtime though.

Hmm.. Tricky situation, what are the other 5?

Personally, my top 6 are (in order); Ampharos, Chesnaught, Samurott, Aggron, Umbreon, and Braviary.
Other honorable mentions would be; Dragonite, Galvantula, Zeraora, Breloom, Leavanny, Empoleon, Luxray, Zebstrika, Araquanid/Dewpider, Snowshrew (Alolan Sandshrew), Mudkip, Cyndaquil, Sobble, and Pachirisu.
I've got a bias for water, grass, electric, light, and knightly types.
 

MajestyIndigo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
462
Location
France
You or anyone passing by. ^^

My other 5 are Vileplume, Milotic, Delcatty, Tsareena and Beautifly.( together they are much stronger than one might expect, we kick ass on ShowDown hehe ).

The 6th has always been Ninetales, but Cinderace is really getting that shaken up.
If Cinderace becomes playable in Smash, I guess I'll get even more attached to him.

LightKnight LightKnight Who would you rather see as a 8th gen rep then ?
 
Last edited:

LightKnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
274
For Smash Ultimate, Rillaboom would be my 8th gen pick. I think they would have the most fun/unique moveset out of all the likely choices. Toxtricity might not be bad either, would be my second choice. Inteleon could work but would probably be an annoying addition and Cinderace would no doubt be a fun pick but one of the least unique additions imo compared to the rest of the existing roster. I finished and posted Rillaboom's and Inteleon's movesets in their respective threads a while ago. Ideally, I'd have all 4 of them added to the game :laugh:

As far as your top 6 for the picture go, I'll just say Ninetales would certainly fit best with the overall theme of the rest of those Pokemon. However, Cinderace pairs quite well with Tsareena. I suppose that leaves it at a stalemate again but oh well, thats my input XD
 
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
832
Location
Looking for new first parties that aren't Waluigi.
Is Cinderace one of your top 6 favorite Pokemon ?

I've been asked by a friend of mine who my 6 are ( so that she could make a drawing for me ), but I can't decide wether I prefer my good old Ninetales or Cinderace as my fire type now. :/
With me, Cinderace has really grown on me since I started this thread, but he's not in my top 6. But anyways, top 6, um... hm.
1. Spoink
2. Beedrill
3. Mudkip
4. Obstagoon
5. Breloom
6. Dialga
My favorites are highly contested.
 

LightKnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
274
With me, Cinderace has really grown on me since I started this thread, but he's not in my top 6. But anyways, top 6, um... hm.
1. Spoink
2. Beedrill
3. Mudkip
4. Obstagoon
5. Breloom
6. Dialga
My favorites are highly contested.
Cool choices. What would take the number 6 spot if it couldn't be legendaries/mythicals?
Curious what other Pokemon are making it so tough for you to decide, as I also had to re-evaluate my top 6, originally having Dragonite higher.
 

NeonVoid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
107
Is Cinderace one of your top 6 favorite Pokemon ?

I've been asked by a friend of mine who my 6 are ( so that she could make a drawing for me ), but I can't decide wether I prefer my good old Ninetales or Cinderace as my fire type now. :/
Sorry if this sounds banal or cliche, but these are my top 6: Pikachu, Ampharos, Charizard, Garchomp, Greninja, and yes, Cinderace.

Also LightKnight, I've been thinking about (Your*) comment on how Cinderace might grow on you at some point. What if he grew like Greninja (decently liked at first but later on a fan-favorite)?

What if Go's Raboot in the anime will evolve into a Cinderace that possibly has Battle Bond for an ability. Is that even a little bit possible? If that happened LightKnight, would that influence your opinion?
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
832
Location
Looking for new first parties that aren't Waluigi.
Cool choices. What would take the number 6 spot if it couldn't be legendaries/mythicals?
Curious what other Pokemon are making it so tough for you to decide, as I also had to re-evaluate my top 6, originally having Dragonite higher.
That's a hard question. Um. Turtanator? Scollipede? I've got a lot more after so yeah.
 

LightKnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
274
LightKnight LightKnight It got me thinking, why did you say that Cinderace and Tsareena are a good pair ? Is it on a strategic aspect ?
Well, they both primarily use their legs in combat, though usually in slightly different ways. I thought there could be a few cool poses with this idea in mind. Like perhaps the two would be on opposite sides of your trainer doing a pose using their leg/s.
Sorry if this sounds banal or cliche, but these are my top 6: Pikachu, Ampharos, Charizard, Garchomp, Greninja, and yes, Cinderace.

Also LightKnight, I've been thinking about (Your*) comment on how Cinderace might grow on you at some point. What if he grew like Greninja (decently liked at first but later on a fan-favorite)?

What if Go's Raboot in the anime will evolve into a Cinderace that possibly has Battle Bond for an ability. Is that even a little bit possible? If that happened LightKnight, would that influence your opinion?
Haha, those are definitely popular picks!

I haven't been able to watch much of the new anime but if I ever get to it then I think I could certainly start to like the fiery rabbit more if it grows to be powerful and fun to watch. Actually, I tend to like characters/fighters with a kicking fight style so there's that. It was definitely the smart pick for the anime to be the main representing starter from gen 8 just looking at how it fights compared to the other two.
My first impressions is that Rillaboom is a very thematically cool Pokemon, Inteleon is also cool but I ended up disappointed after not liking it as much as its first evolution Sobble, and Cinderace makes sense for the game its in and has a clever/cool concept but I was initially taken back by its very human/sports-player like design. For example, you had some people saying it looked more like a digimon. Can't weigh in on that comment but you've always had people criticizing Pokemon designs so I don't think it carries much weight.

Overall, I think I'll definitely warm up to it overtime as I get use to its design and see it in action. Yes, especially if they end up having some 'mode' or form (which will likely be its gigantamax) akin to Infernape or Greninja due to their bond.
 
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
832
Location
Looking for new first parties that aren't Waluigi.
Well, they both primarily use their legs in combat, though usually in slightly different ways. I thought there could be a few cool poses with this idea in mind. Like perhaps the two would be on opposite sides of your trainer doing a pose using their leg/s.

Haha, those are definitely popular picks!

I haven't been able to watch much of the new anime but if I ever get to it then I think I could certainly start to like the fiery rabbit more if it grows to be powerful and fun to watch. Actually, I tend to like characters/fighters with a kicking fight style so there's that. It was definitely the smart pick for the anime to be the main representing starter from gen 8 just looking at how it fights compared to the other two.
My first impressions is that Rillaboom is a very thematically cool Pokemon, Inteleon is also cool but I ended up disappointed after not liking it as much as its first evolution Sobble, and Cinderace makes sense for the game its in and has a clever/cool concept but I was initially taken back by its very human/sports-player like design. For example, you had some people saying it looked more like a digimon. Can't weigh in on that comment but you've always had people criticizing Pokemon designs so I don't think it carries much weight.

Overall, I think I'll definitely warm up to it overtime as I get use to its design and see it in action. Yes, especially if they end up having some 'mode' or form (which will likely be its gigantamax) akin to Infernape or Greninja due to their bond.
I don't recall infernape having a special form
 

LightKnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
274
I don't recall infernape having a special form
He doesn't necessarily. I was referencing his buffed up boost he gets from his Blaze ability. Making him go 'super saiyan' so to speak.
It isn't too dissimilar to the power and new attacks Greninja unlocks in his true form change.
 
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
28,010
Location
Vibin’
Switch FC
SW: 7210-0785-3330
My top 10 are definitely

Dragapult
Toxtricity
Cinderace
Impidimp
Snom
Falinks
Copperajah
Dracozolt
Cramorant
Mr. Rime
 
Last edited:

LightKnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
274
My top 6 from Galar at the moment are:
Sobble
Toxtricity
Rillaboom
Grapploct
Corviknight
Wooloo

Edit; I should have the Cinderace moveset out on this thread by tomorrow (within 16 hours after this post)!
In the meantime, could someone give me an idea for a taunt a soccer/futball player would do that Cinderace could use?
 
Last edited:

NeonVoid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
107
My top 6 from Galar at the moment are:
Sobble
Toxtricity
Rillaboom
Grapploct
Corviknight
Wooloo

Edit; I should have the Cinderace moveset out on this thread by tomorrow (within 16 hours after this post)!
In the meantime, could someone give me an idea for a taunt a soccer/futball player would do that Cinderace could use?
You know when Cinderace dynamaxes, and gets on his knees and roar? You could do that, minus the Dynamax. Or, you could also do his idle animation too
 
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
832
Location
Looking for new first parties that aren't Waluigi.
Top 6 Galar
Rillaboom
Toxtricity
Cinderace
Obstagoon
Eiscue
Eternatus
Might change later though
My top 6 from Galar at the moment are:
Sobble
Toxtricity
Rillaboom
Grapploct
Corviknight
Wooloo

Edit; I should have the Cinderace moveset out on this thread by tomorrow (within 16 hours after this post)!
In the meantime, could someone give me an idea for a taunt a soccer/futball player would do that Cinderace could use?
Have it kick the ball with it's feet casually. Like, bouncing the ball on one foot and bouncing it to another.
 

Brodemmars

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Messages
51
My top 6 from Galar at the moment are:
Sobble
Toxtricity
Rillaboom
Grapploct
Corviknight
Wooloo

Edit; I should have the Cinderace moveset out on this thread by tomorrow (within 16 hours after this post)!
In the meantime, could someone give me an idea for a taunt a soccer/futball player would do that Cinderace could use?
Taunts that I'd also like to recommend for Cinderace are:
-Bouncing a ball on it's head then knocking it away (ball will do damage)
-Casual stretching
-Jogging in place while the ground beneath its feet catches on fire
-Pulling out a carrot and eating it.

If you haven't done so already you can also look into Mario Strikers for some inspiration.
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
832
Location
Looking for new first parties that aren't Waluigi.
Taunts that I'd also like to recommend for Cinderace are:
-Bouncing a ball on it's head then knocking it away (ball will do damage)
-Casual stretching
-Jogging in place while the ground beneath its feet catches on fire
-Pulling out a carrot and eating it.

If you haven't done so already you can also look into Mario Strikers for some inspiration.
Carrots are not good for rabbits. Why does no one know this?
 

LightKnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
274
Alright, took a long break from making movesets which is why this took so long but here we are!
Thanks everyone for the input on what Cinderace's taunts could be. I needed one more but I got enough ideas from everyone and the video that I decided to make the win animations as well! Side note, Mario and Cinderace have a lot more in common than I thought.
As always, happy to hear any thoughts.
* Attacks
Neutral Attack
; Headbutt; Thrusts head forward in an arc with great force.

Dash attack; Flame-Charge; Cinderace gets low, skidding across the ground a good distance with a foot forward, creating cinders in their wake. Has a sweetspot that does extra fiery damage and makes it into a KO move at around 130% at the ledge. (like Mario dash-attack)

Up tilt; Zen-Headbutt; Thrusts head upwards with great force.

Side tilt; Assurance; Cinderace puts forth their right arm and leg forcibly forward for a moment. This move has various small hitboxes that have different medium knockback angles.

Down tilt; Low-Kick; A quick low kick that has a tripping chance. Has a sweetspot at the tip which does more fiery damage and has a better trip chance. Is Cinderace's most spammable move due to coming out quickly and having very little end-lag.

Up air; Acrobatics; Starting from the front, do an upwards kick in an arc. The last frame of the attack has a diagonally downward light spiking hitbox. (like Ganondorf/Captain-Falcon up-air)

Dair; Double-Kick; A quick succession of two kicks directly below Cinderace. Can sweetspot at the tip of the kicks, doing more fiery damage while the second kick additionally has a weak spike comparable to Kirby's down-air. Is Cinderace's fastest aerial with low start-up and hardly any end-lag. (like Lucario down-air)

Fair; Iron-Head; Cinderace thrusts head forcefully forward and down in an arc. Slow start-up and high end-lag (like Mario forward-air)

Bair; Blaze-Kick; A good ranged back-kick with big explosive power at the sweetspot. The weak hit creates no fire explosion and has low knock-back that generally won't KO. Sweetspot KOs around 90% at the ledge. Slow start-up.

Nair; Facade; Quickly does the splits midair with both legs extending outward on both sides of Cinderace. Has sweetspots on both tips of Cinderace's feet that do extra fiery damage. Good start-up with some end-lag.

Side smash; Mega-Kick; Cinderace lifts up his leg in a fierce signature kick with 'dabbing' arms. Does more fiery damage and knockback at the tip of the foot on the last frame of the attack. Has good reach but slow start-up and average knockback (without sweetspot) compared to other smash attacks, and while the sweetspot allows it to KO around 70% at the ledge the precise timing needed makes it unreliable.

Down smash; Reversal; Does the splits with legs covering both sides of the ground around Cinderace, doing more fiery damage and knockback on both tips of the feet. Good for covering rolls and get-ups. When landing the ledge facing sweetspot it'll KO around 90% at the ledge uncharged, otherwise around 130% without it.

Up smash; U-Turn; Cinderace does a quick backwards summersault kick, dealing extra fiery damage and knockback on the sweetspot. Even without the sweetspot, its Cinderace's go-to smash attack, KO'ing on the base stage around 105% and with the sweetspot around 90%. (like Fox up-smash)
Has a hitbox directly behind Cinderace at the end of the move as well with the last frame of the move having a diagonally spiking hitbox that can work to 2-frame some recovering opponents who haven't grabbed the ledge yet.

Neutral special; Feint+Quick-Attack; Cinderace charges forward in a flash a short distance, traveling behind an enemy's shield if in front of it, with a fist out which does high shield damage and can be followed up by a forward or backward kick depending on which direction you hold on the second part which will shield-poke if the shield was hit by the first part of the move. The first part of the move only hits shields so while it does high shield-stun in order for you to do a follow-up attack with the second part of the move, if you don't land the first hit there is enough end-lag on it to get you punished by a responsive opponent's attack. Noticeable end-lag on the kick part of the attack as well. Kick doesn't KO till around 150%. Can break shields that are very low with first hit. (similar to Corrin Side-Special)

Side special; Pyro-Ball; Cinderace kicks up a pebble and on your second press shoots it forward in the chosen direction speedily in flames. On first press the direction you hold the joystick influences the position the pebble is in, setting up for varying attack angles. Additionally, you can cancel out of the first press with a normal, or smash attack, or a short-hop followed by an aerial in order to expand the number of angles the Pyro-Ball can go. The initial press stalls you in the air for a second to allow you to react with a follow-up. The pebble will stay out for a couple seconds total before being hit even if it lands on the ground. During this time out it can still be hit to send it in flames but another pebble can't be spawned till it despawns. It can travel the full length of Final Destination in flames but becomes a normal pebble again after that point and still has a hitbox as it travels, acting like Snake's grenade till it disappears after a second or hits someone. This allows it to still interrupt recoveries or attacks. KO percent varies but does so as early as 95% far offstage. Though, if its not stale, it'll KO reliably at 150% nearly anywhere on the stage. Its possible for the opponent to clank with the projectile but is very difficult without disjoints. All of this makes it a core attack of Cinderace's moveset that is very flexible but difficult to master.

Down special; Court-Change; Holds out hand defiantly as Cinderace rants, creating a mysterious arcing barrier of black smoke and red energy flowing outwards which also appears over Cinderace's head in small bursts. The ghastly barrier of energy stays out for a second, reflecting projectiles, turning the opponent around, and any status that Cinderace or the opponent have will be swapped between each other and their effect timer will also be reset. This makes it one of the stronger reflectors in the game as you can steal powerful affects such as Wii-Fit-Trainer's Deep-Breathing boost, Hero's Bounce shield, and even affects granted by items such as invincibility. Has noticeable end-lag, being just a little more than other reflectors.

Up special; High-Jump-Kick; Shoots up in a forward angle with knee a good distance then brings other leg around and down with strong momentum. Generally carries opponents caught within the move through the whole duration. Move only stops when hitting the ground or falling offstage and usually KOs Cinderace before the opponent in that situation. Generally doesn't KO onstage until around 150%. (reverse of Incineroar's recovery)

Forward throw; Fire-Punch; Steps forward with a flaming punch, sending the opponent at a low upward angle.
Back throw; Baton-Pass; Summersaults backwards with the opponent then kicks them back. (like Ken Bthrow)
Up throw; Bounce; Jumps high out of sight with opponent then comes crashing down with them underneath Cinderace's feet, resulting in a mini-explosion that send them high up forward vertically. (like Kirby Uthrow)
Down throw; Work-Up; Puts opponent to the ground then pelts them with a flurry of fiery kicks from above, sending them in flames behind Cinderace upwards a distance. The highest damage throw. (like Kirby Dthrow)
Grabs; Bad range and slow.
Pummel; Sucker-Punch; Throws a quick underhanded punch.

Final Smash; Gigantamax Hotshot; Cinderace jumps out of frame and a giant fireball is seen rapidly growing in the background, ending with opened eyes and a mouth and the newly formed Cinderace coming out above from in it. A huge target reticle then shows up and once the location is chosen Cinderace kicks the fireball which reaches the stage within a second, covering half the screen as it burns anyone caught in it for a full second then explodes!

* Movement
Jumps
; small short-hop but overall high jumps
Rolls; Fast
Dodges; Fast
Groundspeed; Fast
Airspeed; Average
Fallspeed; Fast
Weight; Light

* Animations/Functionality
Match-Start Animation
; Cinderace bursts through a wall of fire on his knees and quickly gets up.
Up taunt; Gets out a pebble which Cinderace confidently lightly kicks up repeatedly to show-off.
Side taunt; Jogs in place, setting the ground on fire while Cinderace does various poses with arms such as crossing them and dabbing to show-off and taunt opponents.
Down taunt; Gets on knees excitedly, yelling “Cinderrrrr!!” as arms slightly thrust.
Crouch; Falls onto knees with body slightly leaning back. Can't crawl either direction.
Idle Animation; Cinderace puts an arm to their side as they look around.
Walking Animation; The simple walk seen in Pokemon Camp
Running Animation; The same run used in Pokemon Camp
Shield Animation; Crosses arms in front of chest with legs bracing
When Footstooled; Goes limp with widened surprised eyes
Win Animation 1#; Cinderace does a victorious hop followed by a much higher one, then puts one arm to his side in triumph while looking off into the distance.
Win Animation 2#; Cinderace excitedly hops forward a total of 3 times for the crowd then ends in the last hop with arms outward with a pumped pose.
Win Animation 3#; Cinderace runs and does a slide on their knees with a trail of flames behind them, ending with pumping arms up in the air as Cinderace slows to a stop.
Loss Animation; Claps respectfully with a smile.

* Analysis
Synopsis
;
Cinderace is a very flexible fighter good at both offense and defense that likes playing around the ledges of the map. At the core of Cinderace's moveset is its Pyro-Ball which most of its moves are meant to synergize with, making Cinderace's moves generally come out fast in order to combo and react quickly to Pyro-Ball but as a result they tend to have noticeable end-lag. When on offense Cinderace can set up trap situations with Pyro-Ball and likely finish off with a forward-air Iron Head spike. And while the Pokemon has a lacking grab-game, it is helped with the potent move Feint to get past others defenses. However, on defense Cinderace can also pester the opponent from across the stage with Pyro-Ball. But if the opponent tries to go in with projectiles or buffs of their own then Cinderace can turn it around in his favor with Court Change. Overall, Cinderace is good at making others play his game while creating openings and punishing slip-ups all with the careful use of Pyro-Ball in tandem with the rest of Cinderace's moveset.

Difficulty of use; Hard
With the highly technical Pyro-Ball being the centerpiece of Cinderace's moveset and the good number of sweetspots on various moves, the precision and ingenuity needed to maximize this character is high. This is further highlighted with the lightweight status Cinderace has despite having overall good stats such as a speedy fast-fall and great ground-speed which are also more difficult to control than slower normal speeds. As such, it can be easy to make mistakes or hard-reads that heavily punish you with losing a stock, given Cinderace's lightweight profile. Having an almost non-existent grab-game also limits your options but Cinderace tries to get around this problem with Feint. Though, moves like the dash-attack, up-air, forward-air, and up-smash should still get you by as a new player with the character.

Fighter Classification; Zoner/(Bait&Punisher)
The heavy usage of Pyro-Ball paired with many moves having noticeable end-lag lends itself to a more careful zoning playstyle that relies on baiting certain movements and attacks then punishing accordingly. In movement and attacks Cinderace can be best surmised as a combination of Captain Falcon and Wii Fit Trainer with hints of Mario. As such, Cinderace kinda plays like them combined, looking similar to Wii-Fit when playing defense and Captain Falcon when going on the offense.
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
832
Location
Looking for new first parties that aren't Waluigi.
Alright, took a long break from making movesets which is why this took so long but here we are!
Thanks everyone for the input on what Cinderace's taunts could be. I needed one more but I got enough ideas from everyone and the video that I decided to make the win animations as well! Side note, Mario and Cinderace have a lot more in common than I thought.
As always, happy to hear any thoughts.
* Attacks
Neutral Attack
; Headbutt; Thrusts head forward in an arc with great force.

Dash attack; Flame-Charge; Cinderace gets low, skidding across the ground a good distance with a foot forward, creating cinders in their wake. Has a sweetspot that does extra fiery damage and makes it into a KO move at around 130% at the ledge. (like Mario dash-attack)

Up tilt; Zen-Headbutt; Thrusts head upwards with great force.

Side tilt; Assurance; Cinderace puts forth their right arm and leg forcibly forward for a moment. This move has various small hitboxes that have different medium knockback angles.

Down tilt; Low-Kick; A quick low kick that has a tripping chance. Has a sweetspot at the tip which does more fiery damage and has a better trip chance. Is Cinderace's most spammable move due to coming out quickly and having very little end-lag.

Up air; Acrobatics; Starting from the front, do an upwards kick in an arc. The last frame of the attack has a diagonally downward light spiking hitbox. (like Ganondorf/Captain-Falcon up-air)

Dair; Double-Kick; A quick succession of two kicks directly below Cinderace. Can sweetspot at the tip of the kicks, doing more fiery damage while the second kick additionally has a weak spike comparable to Kirby's down-air. Is Cinderace's fastest aerial with low start-up and hardly any end-lag. (like Lucario down-air)

Fair; Iron-Head; Cinderace thrusts head forcefully forward and down in an arc. Slow start-up and high end-lag (like Mario forward-air)

Bair; Blaze-Kick; A good ranged back-kick with big explosive power at the sweetspot. The weak hit creates no fire explosion and has low knock-back that generally won't KO. Sweetspot KOs around 90% at the ledge. Slow start-up.

Nair; Facade; Quickly does the splits midair with both legs extending outward on both sides of Cinderace. Has sweetspots on both tips of Cinderace's feet that do extra fiery damage. Good start-up with some end-lag.

Side smash; Mega-Kick; Cinderace lifts up his leg in a fierce signature kick with 'dabbing' arms. Does more fiery damage and knockback at the tip of the foot on the last frame of the attack. Has good reach but slow start-up and average knockback (without sweetspot) compared to other smash attacks, and while the sweetspot allows it to KO around 70% at the ledge the precise timing needed makes it unreliable.

Down smash; Reversal; Does the splits with legs covering both sides of the ground around Cinderace, doing more fiery damage and knockback on both tips of the feet. Good for covering rolls and get-ups. When landing the ledge facing sweetspot it'll KO around 90% at the ledge uncharged, otherwise around 130% without it.

Up smash; U-Turn; Cinderace does a quick backwards summersault kick, dealing extra fiery damage and knockback on the sweetspot. Even without the sweetspot, its Cinderace's go-to smash attack, KO'ing on the base stage around 105% and with the sweetspot around 90%. (like Fox up-smash)
Has a hitbox directly behind Cinderace at the end of the move as well with the last frame of the move having a diagonally spiking hitbox that can work to 2-frame some recovering opponents who haven't grabbed the ledge yet.

Neutral special; Feint+Quick-Attack; Cinderace charges forward in a flash a short distance, traveling behind an enemy's shield if in front of it, with a fist out which does high shield damage and can be followed up by a forward or backward kick depending on which direction you hold on the second part which will shield-poke if the shield was hit by the first part of the move. The first part of the move only hits shields so while it does high shield-stun in order for you to do a follow-up attack with the second part of the move, if you don't land the first hit there is enough end-lag on it to get you punished by a responsive opponent's attack. Noticeable end-lag on the kick part of the attack as well. Kick doesn't KO till around 150%. Can break shields that are very low with first hit. (similar to Corrin Side-Special)

Side special; Pyro-Ball; Cinderace kicks up a pebble and on your second press shoots it forward in the chosen direction speedily in flames. On first press the direction you hold the joystick influences the position the pebble is in, setting up for varying attack angles. Additionally, you can cancel out of the first press with a normal, or smash attack, or a short-hop followed by an aerial in order to expand the number of angles the Pyro-Ball can go. The initial press stalls you in the air for a second to allow you to react with a follow-up. The pebble will stay out for a couple seconds total before being hit even if it lands on the ground. During this time out it can still be hit to send it in flames but another pebble can't be spawned till it despawns. It can travel the full length of Final Destination in flames but becomes a normal pebble again after that point and still has a hitbox as it travels, acting like Snake's grenade till it disappears after a second or hits someone. This allows it to still interrupt recoveries or attacks. KO percent varies but does so as early as 95% far offstage. Though, if its not stale, it'll KO reliably at 150% nearly anywhere on the stage. Its possible for the opponent to clank with the projectile but is very difficult without disjoints. All of this makes it a core attack of Cinderace's moveset that is very flexible but difficult to master.

Down special; Court-Change; Holds out hand defiantly as Cinderace rants, creating a mysterious arcing barrier of black smoke and red energy flowing outwards which also appears over Cinderace's head in small bursts. The ghastly barrier of energy stays out for a second, reflecting projectiles, turning the opponent around, and any status that Cinderace or the opponent have will be swapped between each other and their effect timer will also be reset. This makes it one of the stronger reflectors in the game as you can steal powerful affects such as Wii-Fit-Trainer's Deep-Breathing boost, Hero's Bounce shield, and even affects granted by items such as invincibility. Has noticeable end-lag, being just a little more than other reflectors.

Up special; High-Jump-Kick; Shoots up in a forward angle with knee a good distance then brings other leg around and down with strong momentum. Generally carries opponents caught within the move through the whole duration. Move only stops when hitting the ground or falling offstage and usually KOs Cinderace before the opponent in that situation. Generally doesn't KO onstage until around 150%. (reverse of Incineroar's recovery)

Forward throw; Fire-Punch; Steps forward with a flaming punch, sending the opponent at a low upward angle.
Back throw; Baton-Pass; Summersaults backwards with the opponent then kicks them back. (like Ken Bthrow)
Up throw; Bounce; Jumps high out of sight with opponent then comes crashing down with them underneath Cinderace's feet, resulting in a mini-explosion that send them high up forward vertically. (like Kirby Uthrow)
Down throw; Work-Up; Puts opponent to the ground then pelts them with a flurry of fiery kicks from above, sending them in flames behind Cinderace upwards a distance. The highest damage throw. (like Kirby Dthrow)
Grabs; Bad range and slow.
Pummel; Sucker-Punch; Throws a quick underhanded punch.

Final Smash; Gigantamax Hotshot; Cinderace jumps out of frame and a giant fireball is seen rapidly growing in the background, ending with opened eyes and a mouth and the newly formed Cinderace coming out above from in it. A huge target reticle then shows up and once the location is chosen Cinderace kicks the fireball which reaches the stage within a second, covering half the screen as it burns anyone caught in it for a full second then explodes!

* Movement
Jumps
; small short-hop but overall high jumps
Rolls; Fast
Dodges; Fast
Groundspeed; Fast
Airspeed; Average
Fallspeed; Fast
Weight; Light

* Animations/Functionality
Match-Start Animation
; Cinderace bursts through a wall of fire on his knees and quickly gets up.
Up taunt; Gets out a pebble which Cinderace confidently lightly kicks up repeatedly to show-off.
Side taunt; Jogs in place, setting the ground on fire while Cinderace does various poses with arms such as crossing them and dabbing to show-off and taunt opponents.
Down taunt; Gets on knees excitedly, yelling “Cinderrrrr!!” as arms slightly thrust.
Crouch; Falls onto knees with body slightly leaning back. Can't crawl either direction.
Idle Animation; Cinderace puts an arm to their side as they look around.
Walking Animation; The simple walk seen in Pokemon Camp
Running Animation; The same run used in Pokemon Camp
Shield Animation; Crosses arms in front of chest with legs bracing
When Footstooled; Goes limp with widened surprised eyes
Win Animation 1#; Cinderace does a victorious hop followed by a much higher one, then puts one arm to his side in triumph while looking off into the distance.
Win Animation 2#; Cinderace excitedly hops forward a total of 3 times for the crowd then ends in the last hop with arms outward with a pumped pose.
Win Animation 3#; Cinderace runs and does a slide on their knees with a trail of flames behind them, ending with pumping arms up in the air as Cinderace slows to a stop.
Loss Animation; Claps respectfully with a smile.

* Analysis
Synopsis
;
Cinderace is a very flexible fighter good at both offense and defense that likes playing around the ledges of the map. At the core of Cinderace's moveset is its Pyro-Ball which most of its moves are meant to synergize with, making Cinderace's moves generally come out fast in order to combo and react quickly to Pyro-Ball but as a result they tend to have noticeable end-lag. When on offense Cinderace can set up trap situations with Pyro-Ball and likely finish off with a forward-air Iron Head spike. And while the Pokemon has a lacking grab-game, it is helped with the potent move Feint to get past others defenses. However, on defense Cinderace can also pester the opponent from across the stage with Pyro-Ball. But if the opponent tries to go in with projectiles or buffs of their own then Cinderace can turn it around in his favor with Court Change. Overall, Cinderace is good at making others play his game while creating openings and punishing slip-ups all with the careful use of Pyro-Ball in tandem with the rest of Cinderace's moveset.

Difficulty of use; Hard
With the highly technical Pyro-Ball being the centerpiece of Cinderace's moveset and the good number of sweetspots on various moves, the precision and ingenuity needed to maximize this character is high. This is further highlighted with the lightweight status Cinderace has despite having overall good stats such as a speedy fast-fall and great ground-speed which are also more difficult to control than slower normal speeds. As such, it can be easy to make mistakes or hard-reads that heavily punish you with losing a stock, given Cinderace's lightweight profile. Having an almost non-existent grab-game also limits your options but Cinderace tries to get around this problem with Feint. Though, moves like the dash-attack, up-air, forward-air, and up-smash should still get you by as a new player with the character.

Fighter Classification; Zoner/(Bait&Punisher)
The heavy usage of Pyro-Ball paired with many moves having noticeable end-lag lends itself to a more careful zoning playstyle that relies on baiting certain movements and attacks then punishing accordingly. In movement and attacks Cinderace can be best surmised as a combination of Captain Falcon and Wii Fit Trainer with hints of Mario. As such, Cinderace kinda plays like them combined, looking similar to Wii-Fit when playing defense and Captain Falcon when going on the offense.
I'll fully check this out and add it to the op tomorrow as its getting late for me.
 

NeonVoid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
107
Taunts that I'd also like to recommend for Cinderace are:
-Bouncing a ball on it's head then knocking it away (ball will do damage)
-Casual stretching
-Jogging in place while the ground beneath its feet catches on fire
-Pulling out a carrot and eating it.

If you haven't done so already you can also look into Mario Strikers for some inspiration.
I died when I read "Pulling out a carrot and eating it." Not the worst idea

Alright, took a long break from making movesets which is why this took so long but here we are!
Thanks everyone for the input on what Cinderace's taunts could be. I needed one more but I got enough ideas from everyone and the video that I decided to make the win animations as well! Side note, Mario and Cinderace have a lot more in common than I thought.
As always, happy to hear any thoughts.
* Attacks
Neutral Attack
; Headbutt; Thrusts head forward in an arc with great force.

Dash attack; Flame-Charge; Cinderace gets low, skidding across the ground a good distance with a foot forward, creating cinders in their wake. Has a sweetspot that does extra fiery damage and makes it into a KO move at around 130% at the ledge. (like Mario dash-attack)

Up tilt; Zen-Headbutt; Thrusts head upwards with great force.

Side tilt; Assurance; Cinderace puts forth their right arm and leg forcibly forward for a moment. This move has various small hitboxes that have different medium knockback angles.

Down tilt; Low-Kick; A quick low kick that has a tripping chance. Has a sweetspot at the tip which does more fiery damage and has a better trip chance. Is Cinderace's most spammable move due to coming out quickly and having very little end-lag.

Up air; Acrobatics; Starting from the front, do an upwards kick in an arc. The last frame of the attack has a diagonally downward light spiking hitbox. (like Ganondorf/Captain-Falcon up-air)

Dair; Double-Kick; A quick succession of two kicks directly below Cinderace. Can sweetspot at the tip of the kicks, doing more fiery damage while the second kick additionally has a weak spike comparable to Kirby's down-air. Is Cinderace's fastest aerial with low start-up and hardly any end-lag. (like Lucario down-air)

Fair; Iron-Head; Cinderace thrusts head forcefully forward and down in an arc. Slow start-up and high end-lag (like Mario forward-air)

Bair; Blaze-Kick; A good ranged back-kick with big explosive power at the sweetspot. The weak hit creates no fire explosion and has low knock-back that generally won't KO. Sweetspot KOs around 90% at the ledge. Slow start-up.

Nair; Facade; Quickly does the splits midair with both legs extending outward on both sides of Cinderace. Has sweetspots on both tips of Cinderace's feet that do extra fiery damage. Good start-up with some end-lag.

Side smash; Mega-Kick; Cinderace lifts up his leg in a fierce signature kick with 'dabbing' arms. Does more fiery damage and knockback at the tip of the foot on the last frame of the attack. Has good reach but slow start-up and average knockback (without sweetspot) compared to other smash attacks, and while the sweetspot allows it to KO around 70% at the ledge the precise timing needed makes it unreliable.

Down smash; Reversal; Does the splits with legs covering both sides of the ground around Cinderace, doing more fiery damage and knockback on both tips of the feet. Good for covering rolls and get-ups. When landing the ledge facing sweetspot it'll KO around 90% at the ledge uncharged, otherwise around 130% without it.

Up smash; U-Turn; Cinderace does a quick backwards summersault kick, dealing extra fiery damage and knockback on the sweetspot. Even without the sweetspot, its Cinderace's go-to smash attack, KO'ing on the base stage around 105% and with the sweetspot around 90%. (like Fox up-smash)
Has a hitbox directly behind Cinderace at the end of the move as well with the last frame of the move having a diagonally spiking hitbox that can work to 2-frame some recovering opponents who haven't grabbed the ledge yet.

Neutral special; Feint+Quick-Attack; Cinderace charges forward in a flash a short distance, traveling behind an enemy's shield if in front of it, with a fist out which does high shield damage and can be followed up by a forward or backward kick depending on which direction you hold on the second part which will shield-poke if the shield was hit by the first part of the move. The first part of the move only hits shields so while it does high shield-stun in order for you to do a follow-up attack with the second part of the move, if you don't land the first hit there is enough end-lag on it to get you punished by a responsive opponent's attack. Noticeable end-lag on the kick part of the attack as well. Kick doesn't KO till around 150%. Can break shields that are very low with first hit. (similar to Corrin Side-Special)

Side special; Pyro-Ball; Cinderace kicks up a pebble and on your second press shoots it forward in the chosen direction speedily in flames. On first press the direction you hold the joystick influences the position the pebble is in, setting up for varying attack angles. Additionally, you can cancel out of the first press with a normal, or smash attack, or a short-hop followed by an aerial in order to expand the number of angles the Pyro-Ball can go. The initial press stalls you in the air for a second to allow you to react with a follow-up. The pebble will stay out for a couple seconds total before being hit even if it lands on the ground. During this time out it can still be hit to send it in flames but another pebble can't be spawned till it despawns. It can travel the full length of Final Destination in flames but becomes a normal pebble again after that point and still has a hitbox as it travels, acting like Snake's grenade till it disappears after a second or hits someone. This allows it to still interrupt recoveries or attacks. KO percent varies but does so as early as 95% far offstage. Though, if its not stale, it'll KO reliably at 150% nearly anywhere on the stage. Its possible for the opponent to clank with the projectile but is very difficult without disjoints. All of this makes it a core attack of Cinderace's moveset that is very flexible but difficult to master.

Down special; Court-Change; Holds out hand defiantly as Cinderace rants, creating a mysterious arcing barrier of black smoke and red energy flowing outwards which also appears over Cinderace's head in small bursts. The ghastly barrier of energy stays out for a second, reflecting projectiles, turning the opponent around, and any status that Cinderace or the opponent have will be swapped between each other and their effect timer will also be reset. This makes it one of the stronger reflectors in the game as you can steal powerful affects such as Wii-Fit-Trainer's Deep-Breathing boost, Hero's Bounce shield, and even affects granted by items such as invincibility. Has noticeable end-lag, being just a little more than other reflectors.

Up special; High-Jump-Kick; Shoots up in a forward angle with knee a good distance then brings other leg around and down with strong momentum. Generally carries opponents caught within the move through the whole duration. Move only stops when hitting the ground or falling offstage and usually KOs Cinderace before the opponent in that situation. Generally doesn't KO onstage until around 150%. (reverse of Incineroar's recovery)

Forward throw; Fire-Punch; Steps forward with a flaming punch, sending the opponent at a low upward angle.
Back throw; Baton-Pass; Summersaults backwards with the opponent then kicks them back. (like Ken Bthrow)
Up throw; Bounce; Jumps high out of sight with opponent then comes crashing down with them underneath Cinderace's feet, resulting in a mini-explosion that send them high up forward vertically. (like Kirby Uthrow)
Down throw; Work-Up; Puts opponent to the ground then pelts them with a flurry of fiery kicks from above, sending them in flames behind Cinderace upwards a distance. The highest damage throw. (like Kirby Dthrow)
Grabs; Bad range and slow.
Pummel; Sucker-Punch; Throws a quick underhanded punch.

Final Smash; Gigantamax Hotshot; Cinderace jumps out of frame and a giant fireball is seen rapidly growing in the background, ending with opened eyes and a mouth and the newly formed Cinderace coming out above from in it. A huge target reticle then shows up and once the location is chosen Cinderace kicks the fireball which reaches the stage within a second, covering half the screen as it burns anyone caught in it for a full second then explodes!

* Movement
Jumps
; small short-hop but overall high jumps
Rolls; Fast
Dodges; Fast
Groundspeed; Fast
Airspeed; Average
Fallspeed; Fast
Weight; Light

* Animations/Functionality
Match-Start Animation
; Cinderace bursts through a wall of fire on his knees and quickly gets up.
Up taunt; Gets out a pebble which Cinderace confidently lightly kicks up repeatedly to show-off.
Side taunt; Jogs in place, setting the ground on fire while Cinderace does various poses with arms such as crossing them and dabbing to show-off and taunt opponents.
Down taunt; Gets on knees excitedly, yelling “Cinderrrrr!!” as arms slightly thrust.
Crouch; Falls onto knees with body slightly leaning back. Can't crawl either direction.
Idle Animation; Cinderace puts an arm to their side as they look around.
Walking Animation; The simple walk seen in Pokemon Camp
Running Animation; The same run used in Pokemon Camp
Shield Animation; Crosses arms in front of chest with legs bracing
When Footstooled; Goes limp with widened surprised eyes
Win Animation 1#; Cinderace does a victorious hop followed by a much higher one, then puts one arm to his side in triumph while looking off into the distance.
Win Animation 2#; Cinderace excitedly hops forward a total of 3 times for the crowd then ends in the last hop with arms outward with a pumped pose.
Win Animation 3#; Cinderace runs and does a slide on their knees with a trail of flames behind them, ending with pumping arms up in the air as Cinderace slows to a stop.
Loss Animation; Claps respectfully with a smile.

* Analysis
Synopsis
;
Cinderace is a very flexible fighter good at both offense and defense that likes playing around the ledges of the map. At the core of Cinderace's moveset is its Pyro-Ball which most of its moves are meant to synergize with, making Cinderace's moves generally come out fast in order to combo and react quickly to Pyro-Ball but as a result they tend to have noticeable end-lag. When on offense Cinderace can set up trap situations with Pyro-Ball and likely finish off with a forward-air Iron Head spike. And while the Pokemon has a lacking grab-game, it is helped with the potent move Feint to get past others defenses. However, on defense Cinderace can also pester the opponent from across the stage with Pyro-Ball. But if the opponent tries to go in with projectiles or buffs of their own then Cinderace can turn it around in his favor with Court Change. Overall, Cinderace is good at making others play his game while creating openings and punishing slip-ups all with the careful use of Pyro-Ball in tandem with the rest of Cinderace's moveset.

Difficulty of use; Hard
With the highly technical Pyro-Ball being the centerpiece of Cinderace's moveset and the good number of sweetspots on various moves, the precision and ingenuity needed to maximize this character is high. This is further highlighted with the lightweight status Cinderace has despite having overall good stats such as a speedy fast-fall and great ground-speed which are also more difficult to control than slower normal speeds. As such, it can be easy to make mistakes or hard-reads that heavily punish you with losing a stock, given Cinderace's lightweight profile. Having an almost non-existent grab-game also limits your options but Cinderace tries to get around this problem with Feint. Though, moves like the dash-attack, up-air, forward-air, and up-smash should still get you by as a new player with the character.

Fighter Classification; Zoner/(Bait&Punisher)
The heavy usage of Pyro-Ball paired with many moves having noticeable end-lag lends itself to a more careful zoning playstyle that relies on baiting certain movements and attacks then punishing accordingly. In movement and attacks Cinderace can be best surmised as a combination of Captain Falcon and Wii Fit Trainer with hints of Mario. As such, Cinderace kinda plays like them combined, looking similar to Wii-Fit when playing defense and Captain Falcon when going on the offense.
Wow, I'm impressed. You clearly put a lot of work towards a Pokemon, but I have a couple of questions. For Court Change, I love the idea, but you said Cinderace rants? Like what is Cinderace doing while the move is unfolding?

For Pyro Ball, you said that it can cross Final destination, but if you're closer, would it be able to bounce off the stages of the screen?

Give me your opinion, but as you know, logically, Pokemon can only learn 4 moves (Greninja has Water Shuriken, Hydro Pump, Shadow Sneak, and Substitute). Realistically, what moves would you want to keep on Cinderace?

Sorry for all of the questions, i'm just trying to compare this set to my Libero Moveset (on the front page if you need reference), and I want to possible take notes so I can make a moveset for Galar Pokemon trainer
 
Last edited:

LightKnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
274
Wow, I'm impressed. You clearly put a lot of work towards a Pokemon, but I have a couple of questions. For Court Change, I love the idea, but you said Cinderace rants? Like what is Cinderace doing while the move is unfolding?

For Pyro Ball, you said that it can cross Final destination, but if you're closer, would it be able to bounce off the stages of the screen?

Give me your opinion, but as you know, logically, Pokemon can only learn 4 moves (Greninja has Water Shuriken, Hydro Pump, Shadow Sneak, and Substitute). Realistically, what moves would you want to keep on Cinderace?

Sorry for all of the questions, i'm just trying to compare this set to my Libero Moveset (on the front page if you need reference), and I want to possible take notes so I can make a moveset for Galar Pokemon trainer
Thanks! Don't worry about the questions, I was actually trying to encourage them when I asked for thoughts. Been awhile since I looked at your moveset but I'll do so again.
This ended up being a long post because I explained so many extra details so hopefully you don't mind. :nervous: I'll use + to show my talking points and if it doesn't relate to what you want to know then thats up to you as to whether you want to read it or not :p

+ Story Behind Choosing the Animation
Oh, yeah, my idea with Court Change was kinda outside the box and could have been explained a little better (but I thought I'd spare the details seeing as I'd written so much anyway) but the explanation in-game for the move is so vague that I decided to get a little creative with it. The dex explains it as a "mysterious power" and I figured, "What is the main mysterious power in Sword/Shield? Well that would be the energy that comes from Eternatus of course!" so the idea was that Cinderace is tapping into this power that is generally used for dynamaxing and as a result the excess energy (signified by black smoke and red light) is coming out of him as he uses it.
+ Cinderace's Court Change Animation
To answer your main question, Cinderace is acting out in frustration like when a soccer/futball player might rant wildly about a foul or injustice on the field that isn't being called. The idea is that Cinderace would be angrily raising and shaking one of his fists up (in front of chest/face) as he says something like "cin-CIN-derrrr-CIN!" as the eyes and eyebrows show his anger and 'storm' clouds puff out around his head (kinda like when steam is shown in animation to show boiling anger). During all that, the same black smoke infused with red light is forming an arcing barrier in front of Cinderace with the red energy specifically stretching out a little (of which looks similar to Mii-Swordfighter's reflector animation).

+ "Would Pyro Ball be able to bounce of the stages of the screen?"
With Pyro Ball, if there is no physical wall then it can't bounce. So if Cinderace is by the ledge and shooting it offstage towards the blast-zone on Final Destination (for example) then it won't come back.

+ Lists of Moves I'd Keep
I'm trying to figure out exactly what you mean by your last question but I'll answer it in many ways so that hopefully I answer it and you know my thought process.
If I had to limit myself and could only pick 4 moves to represent Cinderace in a general sense then they would be; Pyro Ball, Court Change, Bounce, and Headbutt (or any of the moves associated with the word).
If what you meant by was the specials specifically then I'd say; Pyro Ball, Court Change, Bounce, and Feint.
If you meant out of all the moves in the set which are most important to me that he keeps then I'd say; Pyro Ball, Court Change, Iron Head (Fair), and Flame Charge (Dash attack)
+ Explanation for the Recovery and how it relates to Bounce:
I ended up picking High Jump Kick for the recovery because I noticed it was a recommended move on some sets used so I figured it'd be good to also somewhat represent the competitive scene of Cinderace and the move fits overall very well with the theme of the Pokemon (think Rabbit/Bounce). I chose it to be the reverse of Incineroar's recovery because in the dex explanation of the move it says, "The target is attacked with a knee kick from a jump." but I still wanted Cinderace to use its legs when recovering and I had no intention of giving Cinderace a great recovery so I added the second part. I probably could have spoken more on the fact Cinderace doesn't have a good recovery in this moveset but the thought hadn't occurred to me and I think its good for balancing this set, and again, fits with the theme of the Pokemon. :shades:
Originally I actually had an idea to do a variation of Pyro Ball but Cinderace would shoot it vertically below him, using the momentum of kicking it to bounce the desired direction. While I still could have gone with it, High Jump Kick just seemed like a more simple and balanced route to take. You could also interpret the move as a type of 'bounce' seeing as Cinderace jumps in the move.
+ I Don't Agree with Limiting things to 4 Moves and Here's Why:
The way I see it, Pokemon can use more than 4 moves. In the mainline games limiting it to that small number is just a way of keeping balance within that game genre.
Although in the anime they try to keep it close to the lore of the mainline games, they haven't always upheld this and the show is made specifically for younger kids with the idea of advertising the games. With all of that in mind, it makes sense to stay as close to the game mechanics as possible, only veering from that in order to liven up the plot. One example of where more than 4 moves were used is in one of Snorlax's battles when Ash was using him. I'd suggest looking it up for more details if you aren't familiar with it. Another thing about the anime and general advertising for Pokemon is that the vast majority of the creatures make audible noises which are just variations of their name. While this isn't always the case (as seen by Charizard, who needs no name introduction), it usually is because from a marketing standpoint they want people to be as familiar with the franchise as possible. I don't agree with it from a lore standpoint but thats just good marketing...
You might notice in the 'Pokemon Origins' animation, which is a more serious take on the story, the Pokemon don't say their names at all.
Talking more specifically about Pokemon represented in Smash Brothers, they obviously use more than 4 moves just when looking at their normals. Even Greninja's Substitute special move is actually a combination of two moves because of the follow-up kick attack.
I just assign names to all the attacks the Pokemon uses because its fun and shows part of where I'm taking inspiration from when giving them the attack. I try including as many moves from the primary moveset and try hard to stay away from anything that can't be attained in any way in-game sense it gives parameters without being overly limiting.

+ Retrospect
I understand more clearly now you were probably just thinking what moves to best represent Cinderace or one of its forms in your Galar Trainer moveset but hopefully this was all helpful and my light-hearted rant on 4 moves wasn't too overbearing despite perhaps misunderstanding your original intent.
I'm curious, what's your general idea for the character? Do they use the first, middle, and last form just like the Kanto trainer?
 
Last edited:

NeonVoid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
107
Thanks! Don't worry about the questions, I was actually trying to encourage them when I asked for thoughts. Been awhile since I looked at your moveset but I'll do so again.
This ended up being a long post because I explained so many extra details so hopefully you don't mind. :nervous: I'll use + to show my talking points and if it doesn't relate to what you want to know then thats up to you as to whether you want to read it or not :p

+ Story Behind Choosing the Animation
Oh, yeah, my idea with Court Change was kinda outside the box and could have been explained a little better (but I thought I'd spare the details seeing as I'd written so much anyway) but the explanation in-game for the move is so vague that I decided to get a little creative with it. The dex explains it as a "mysterious power" and I figured, "What is the main mysterious power in Sword/Shield? Well that would be the energy that comes from Eternatus of course!" so the idea was that Cinderace is tapping into this power that is generally used for dynamaxing and as a result the excess energy (signified by black smoke and red light) is coming out of him as he uses it.
+ Cinderace's Court Change Animation
To answer your main question, Cinderace is acting out in frustration like when a soccer/futball player might rant wildly about a foul or injustice on the field that isn't being called. The idea is that Cinderace would be angrily raising and shaking one of his fists up (in front of chest/face) as he says something like "cin-CIN-derrrr-CIN!" as the eyes and eyebrows show his anger and 'storm' clouds puff out around his head (kinda like when steam is shown in animation to show boiling anger). During all that, the same black smoke infused with red light is forming an arcing barrier in front of Cinderace with the red energy specifically stretching out a little (of which looks similar to Mii-Swordfighter's reflector animation).

+ "Would Pyro Ball be able to bounce of the stages of the screen?"
With Pyro Ball, if there is no physical wall then it can't bounce. So if Cinderace is by the ledge and shooting it offstage towards the blast-zone on Final Destination (for example) then it won't come back.

+ Lists of Moves I'd Keep
I'm trying to figure out exactly what you mean by your last question but I'll answer it in many ways so that hopefully I answer it and you know my thought process.
If I had to limit myself and could only pick 4 moves to represent Cinderace in a general sense then they would be; Pyro Ball, Court Change, Bounce, and Headbutt (or any of the moves associated with the word).
If what you meant by was the specials specifically then I'd say; Pyro Ball, Court Change, Bounce, and Feint.
If you meant out of all the moves in the set which are most important to me that he keeps then I'd say; Pyro Ball, Court Change, Iron Head (Fair), and Flame Charge (Dash attack)
+ Explanation for the Recovery and how it relates to Bounce:
I ended up picking High Jump Kick for the recovery because I noticed it was a recommended move on some sets used so I figured it'd be good to also somewhat represent the competitive scene of Cinderace and the move fits overall very well with the theme of the Pokemon (think Rabbit/Bounce). I chose it to be the reverse of Incineroar's recovery because in the dex explanation of the move it says, "The target is attacked with a knee kick from a jump." but I still wanted Cinderace to use its legs when recovering and I had no intention of giving Cinderace a great recovery so I added the second part. I probably could have spoken more on the fact Cinderace doesn't have a good recovery in this moveset but the thought hadn't occurred to me and I think its good for balancing this set, and again, fits with the theme of the Pokemon. :shades:
Originally I actually had an idea to do a variation of Pyro Ball but Cinderace would shoot it vertically below him, using the momentum of kicking it to bounce the desired direction. While I still could have gone with it, High Jump Kick just seemed like a more simple and balanced route to take. You could also interpret the move as a type of 'bounce' seeing as Cinderace jumps in the move.
+ I Don't Agree with Limiting things to 4 Moves and Here's Why:
The way I see it, Pokemon can use more than 4 moves. In the mainline games limiting it to that small number is just a way of keeping balance within that game genre.
Although in the anime they try to keep it close to the lore of the mainline games, they haven't always upheld this and the show is made specifically for younger kids with the idea of advertising the games. With all of that in mind, it makes sense to stay as close to the game mechanics as possible, only veering from that in order to liven up the plot. One example of where more than 4 moves were used is in one of Snorlax's battles when Ash was using him. I'd suggest looking it up for more details if you aren't familiar with it. Another thing about the anime and general advertising for Pokemon is that the vast majority of the creatures make audible noises which are just variations of their name. While this isn't always the case (as seen by Charizard, who needs no name introduction), it usually is because from a marketing standpoint they want people to be as familiar with the franchise as possible. I don't agree with it from a lore standpoint but thats just good marketing...
You might notice in the 'Pokemon Origins' animation, which is a more serious take on the story, the Pokemon don't say their names at all.
Talking more specifically about Pokemon represented in Smash Brothers, they obviously use more than 4 moves just when looking at their normals. Even Greninja's Substitute special move is actually a combination of two moves because of the follow-up kick attack.
I just assign names to all the attacks the Pokemon uses because its fun and shows part of where I'm taking inspiration from when giving them the attack. I try including as many moves from the primary moveset and try hard to stay away from anything that can't be attained in any way in-game sense it gives parameters without being overly limiting.

+ Retrospect
I understand more clearly now you were probably just thinking what moves to best represent Cinderace or one of its forms in your Galar Trainer moveset but hopefully this was all helpful and my light-hearted rant on 4 moves wasn't too overbearing despite perhaps misunderstanding your original intent.
I'm curious, what's your general idea for the character? Do they use the first, middle, and last form just like the Kanto trainer?
Okay, so on here, I really like the idea behind Court Change, but look at Greninja and buff kitty. Those two were the only starters from their generations to have two signature moves. Greninja had Mat Block, and idk what Incineroar had, but their secondary signature moves were never implemented in Smash. This is also another reason I see Cinderace as likely for Smash, given that developer likability clearly plays a part in this. Cinderace is the only Pokemon from his Gen to have two signature moves (Pyro Ball and Court Change), and TPCI and GF clearly gave him the most attention of the three.

I thought of another question pertaining to High Jump Kick, you said it's like the reverse of Incineroar, so would this move be like Terry's down B?

On the moves, yeah, that's what I meant. A lot of the Pokemon just use attacks, but not a specific move with the tilts, smashes and aerials. I mean how the actual moves are B moves.

Yeah, I'm already going to regret doing the Galar Pokemon Trainer, but my general idea with the set is to be more realistic, and have a first, middle line, and final evolution, preferably Grookey, Drizzile and Cinderace. Honestly, I think it would be cool to have all final evolutions, but for some reason I doubt that's going to happen.

The reason I want Drizzile in over Sobble is because Drizzile is more unique in terms of mechanics. Grookey can act like Squirtle, as in its quick to move and can attack with its tree branch (plus, Grookey's adorable). Drizzile has the spirit and personality of a rambunctious teen, and he can throw water balloons at the opponent. The reason I want Drizzile is because Inteleon went downhill, while Drizzile had somewhat of a unique essence. Obviously, I'd want to maintain Cinderace, given that's hes the most popular of the three. His main mechanic would be Pyro Ball and High Jump Kick.

I'll work on it, and hopefully then the moveset for the trainer will be in much more detail, but if you have and questions, I'd be happy to answer them in more detail!
 
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
832
Location
Looking for new first parties that aren't Waluigi.
Okay, so on here, I really like the idea behind Court Change, but look at Greninja and buff kitty. Those two were the only starters from their generations to have two signature moves. Greninja had Mat Block, and idk what Incineroar had, but their secondary signature moves were never implemented in Smash. This is also another reason I see Cinderace as likely for Smash, given that developer likability clearly plays a part in this. Cinderace is the only Pokemon from his Gen to have two signature moves (Pyro Ball and Court Change), and TPCI and GF clearly gave him the most attention of the three.

I thought of another question pertaining to High Jump Kick, you said it's like the reverse of Incineroar, so would this move be like Terry's down B?

On the moves, yeah, that's what I meant. A lot of the Pokemon just use attacks, but not a specific move with the tilts, smashes and aerials. I mean how the actual moves are B moves.

Yeah, I'm already going to regret doing the Galar Pokemon Trainer, but my general idea with the set is to be more realistic, and have a first, middle line, and final evolution, preferably Grookey, Drizzile and Cinderace. Honestly, I think it would be cool to have all final evolutions, but for some reason I doubt that's going to happen.

The reason I want Drizzile in over Sobble is because Drizzile is more unique in terms of mechanics. Grookey can act like Squirtle, as in its quick to move and can attack with its tree branch (plus, Grookey's adorable). Drizzile has the spirit and personality of a rambunctious teen, and he can throw water balloons at the opponent. The reason I want Drizzile is because Inteleon went downhill, while Drizzile had somewhat of a unique essence. Obviously, I'd want to maintain Cinderace, given that's hes the most popular of the three. His main mechanic would be Pyro Ball and High Jump Kick.

I'll work on it, and hopefully then the moveset for the trainer will be in much more detail, but if you have and questions, I'd be happy to answer them in more detail!
Greninja's Signature Moves were Mat Block and Water Shuriken, Incineroar's were Throat Chop and Darkest Lariat, and Cinderace's is Pyro Ball and Court Change.
 

Brodemmars

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Messages
51
Greninja’s Mat Block is part of its Final Smash and Incineroar’s forward tilt matches how the Anime depicts Throat Chop. If Sakurai were to integrate Court Change into Cinderace’s moveset I’d imagine it would either act like some sort of counter, condition/status switcher, or like Greninja it would act as the hit box/transition part of its Final Smash. But like with Incineroar, I wouldn't put it pass Sakurai to just make up new moves for Cinderace if he needed to round out its moveset.
 
Last edited:

LightKnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
274
Okay, so on here, I really like the idea behind Court Change, but look at Greninja and buff kitty. Those two were the only starters from their generations to have two signature moves. Greninja had Mat Block, and idk what Incineroar had, but their secondary signature moves were never implemented in Smash. This is also another reason I see Cinderace as likely for Smash, given that developer likability clearly plays a part in this. Cinderace is the only Pokemon from his Gen to have two signature moves (Pyro Ball and Court Change), and TPCI and GF clearly gave him the most attention of the three.

I thought of another question pertaining to High Jump Kick, you said it's like the reverse of Incineroar, so would this move be like Terry's down B?

On the moves, yeah, that's what I meant. A lot of the Pokemon just use attacks, but not a specific move with the tilts, smashes and aerials. I mean how the actual moves are B moves.

Yeah, I'm already going to regret doing the Galar Pokemon Trainer, but my general idea with the set is to be more realistic, and have a first, middle line, and final evolution, preferably Grookey, Drizzile and Cinderace. Honestly, I think it would be cool to have all final evolutions, but for some reason I doubt that's going to happen.

The reason I want Drizzile in over Sobble is because Drizzile is more unique in terms of mechanics. Grookey can act like Squirtle, as in its quick to move and can attack with its tree branch (plus, Grookey's adorable). Drizzile has the spirit and personality of a rambunctious teen, and he can throw water balloons at the opponent. The reason I want Drizzile is because Inteleon went downhill, while Drizzile had somewhat of a unique essence. Obviously, I'd want to maintain Cinderace, given that's hes the most popular of the three. His main mechanic would be Pyro Ball and High Jump Kick.

I'll work on it, and hopefully then the moveset for the trainer will be in much more detail, but if you have and questions, I'd be happy to answer them in more detail!
Terry's goes diagonally up and down. Incineroar's goes vertically up then diagonally down. So the total reverse of that would be going diagonally up then vertically down. So Cinderace and Terry would both have the same beginning (Cinderace would travel further) but Cinderace would come straight down in the second part of the attack.
Just in case I wasn't clear enough in the animation description, Cinderace has a rising knee (similar to Captain Falcon Fair animation but knee raised higher like Terry) and just before coming down Cinderace will take their other leg and swing it around from behind (doing a front-flip) then come down (like Bayo Dair).

As to whether the starters use both of their signature moves or not I'll just refer back to Brodemmars previous recent comment.
With that, it should go without being said that the Pokemon in Smash use a wide variety of moves from the mainline games but just as a fun creative exorcise I'll show you examples for Incineroar and Greninja. Of course some of these will be somewhat improvised but I think this will show the majority of the attacks used are more or less linked with other actual Pokemon moves. I'll generally avoid the moves that are already named unless they seem like a combination of two moves.
Neutral Attack; Arm Thrust
Dash attack; Body Press
Up tilt; Iron Head
Side tilt; Throat Chop
Down tilt; Low Sweep
Up air; Acrobatics
Dair; Jump Kick
Fair; Reversal
Bair; Rolling Kick
Nair; Flying Press
Side smash; Mega Kick
Down smash; Body Slam
Up smash; Brutal Swing
Up special; Cross-Chop+Flare-Blitz
Forward throw; Circle Throw
Back throw; Submission
Up throw; Storm Throw
Down throw; Seismic Throw
Pummel; Headbutt
Neutral Attack; Arm-Thrust+Soak
Dash attack; Low Kick
Up tilt; Lick
Side tilt; Pound
Down tilt; Low Sweep
Up air; Acrobatics
Dair; Bounce
Fair; Aerial Ace
Bair; Triple Kick
Nair; Waterfall
Side smash; Night Slash
Down smash; Double Hit
Up smash; Water-Pledge or Guillotine
Down special; Substitute+Return
Pummel; Whirlpool (the throws were boring and I already did them for Incineroar so I skipped those)

Yeah, Drizzile is definitely the most unique pick out of that Pokemon's evolution line as far as mechanics go. In my Inteleon moveset I just ended up incorporating the water balloon theme in one of his specials as a sort of grenade. If you ended up doing all final evolutions I think it could actually work in the sense they could easily be the 3 different weight classes. Inteleon could be a lightweight, even though I classified Cinderace as a lightweight I can easily see him being a middleweight, and Rillaboom could easily be a heavyweight. I suppose the only concern is that each of them could potentially have a big focus on zoning which I chalk up to being a design choice but I don't think it'd be to hard to have Inteleon built upon heavy combo usage (in conjunction with ranged shots). Cinderace is easy to make into a zoner and Rillaboom is essentially just a variation of DK :awesome:
Given your reasons, I totally understand you not going for the Scorbunny, Drizzile, Rillaboom combination but I think Cinderace is loved to one degree or another in all of its forms so I don't see this being a bad combination either, seeing as it probably best fits the archetype and evolution themes that the original PT has.

Would this trainer character have a way to use 4 specials on each Pokemon that don't include switching or would it be only 3 like the other trainer?
 

NeonVoid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
107
Terry's goes diagonally up and down. Incineroar's goes vertically up then diagonally down. So the total reverse of that would be going diagonally up then vertically down. So Cinderace and Terry would both have the same beginning (Cinderace would travel further) but Cinderace would come straight down in the second part of the attack.
Just in case I wasn't clear enough in the animation description, Cinderace has a rising knee (similar to Captain Falcon Fair animation but knee raised higher like Terry) and just before coming down Cinderace will take their other leg and swing it around from behind (doing a front-flip) then come down (like Bayo Dair).

As to whether the starters use both of their signature moves or not I'll just refer back to Brodemmars previous recent comment.
With that, it should go without being said that the Pokemon in Smash use a wide variety of moves from the mainline games but just as a fun creative exorcise I'll show you examples for Incineroar and Greninja. Of course some of these will be somewhat improvised but I think this will show the majority of the attacks used are more or less linked with other actual Pokemon moves. I'll generally avoid the moves that are already named unless they seem like a combination of two moves.
Neutral Attack; Arm Thrust
Dash attack; Body Press
Up tilt; Iron Head
Side tilt; Throat Chop
Down tilt; Low Sweep
Up air; Acrobatics
Dair; Jump Kick
Fair; Reversal
Bair; Rolling Kick
Nair; Flying Press
Side smash; Mega Kick
Down smash; Body Slam
Up smash; Brutal Swing
Up special; Cross-Chop+Flare-Blitz
Forward throw; Circle Throw
Back throw; Submission
Up throw; Storm Throw
Down throw; Seismic Throw
Pummel; Headbutt
Neutral Attack; Arm-Thrust+Soak
Dash attack; Low Kick
Up tilt; Lick
Side tilt; Pound
Down tilt; Low Sweep
Up air; Acrobatics
Dair; Bounce
Fair; Aerial Ace
Bair; Triple Kick
Nair; Waterfall
Side smash; Night Slash
Down smash; Double Hit
Up smash; Water-Pledge or Guillotine
Down special; Substitute+Return
Pummel; Whirlpool (the throws were boring and I already did them for Incineroar so I skipped those)

Yeah, Drizzile is definitely the most unique pick out of that Pokemon's evolution line as far as mechanics go. In my Inteleon moveset I just ended up incorporating the water balloon theme in one of his specials as a sort of grenade. If you ended up doing all final evolutions I think it could actually work in the sense they could easily be the 3 different weight classes. Inteleon could be a lightweight, even though I classified Cinderace as a lightweight I can easily see him being a middleweight, and Rillaboom could easily be a heavyweight. I suppose the only concern is that each of them could potentially have a big focus on zoning which I chalk up to being a design choice but I don't think it'd be to hard to have Inteleon built upon heavy combo usage (in conjunction with ranged shots). Cinderace is easy to make into a zoner and Rillaboom is essentially just a variation of DK :awesome:
Given your reasons, I totally understand you not going for the Scorbunny, Drizzile, Rillaboom combination but I think Cinderace is loved to one degree or another in all of its forms so I don't see this being a bad combination either, seeing as it probably best fits the archetype and evolution themes that the original PT has.

Would this trainer character have a way to use 4 specials on each Pokemon that don't include switching or would it be only 3 like the other trainer?
Thank you for the response, I guess I didnt look at the moves that way, but to answer your question, I would make it be like the Kantonian trainer, where you use down B to switch out. I really dont see a way around this, but my closest idea is that each of the three Pokemon can count as a stock. That way, they all have unique movesets including Down B, and then, like the actual Trainer, you could choose who goes out first. If you only like one Pokemon, then you might be able to fix it on only one. It's all a rough-draft idea, but great question. Thats one of the problems that I'm trying to sort out at the moment
 

Perkilator

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
2,047
Location
San Clemente, California
I may support Sirfetch’d more, but Scorbunny line’s my favorite of Galar’s starters, so I wouldn’t mind Cidnerace as well! I even did a Classic Mode route for it:

Cinderace: Showboating Smash (Fights characters who have a tendency of showing off. The Soccer Ball is the only item.)
Stage 1: :ultbowser::ultroy2:on :npc: (Super Bell Hill)
Stage 2: :ultfalco:on Corneria (Main Theme - Star Fox 64 (Melee))
Stage 3: :ultwario::ultsonic:on :warioware: (free-for-all; WarioWare Inc. Medley)
Stage 4: :ultdarkpit::ultwolf:on Reset Bomb Forest (Star Fox Medley)
Stage 5: :ultken:(Stamina Battle, 150HP) on Suzaku Castle Ω (Ken Stage Type B)
Stage 6: :ultkrool::ultincineroar:on Kongo Falls (Snakey Chantey)
Boss: Master (and Crazy) Hand (Eternatus (Phase 3))
 

NeonVoid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
107
I may support Sirfetch’d more, but Scorbunny line’s my favorite of Galar’s starters, so I wouldn’t mind Cidnerace as well! I even did a Classic Mode route for it:

Cinderace: Showboating Smash (Fights characters who have a tendency of showing off. The Soccer Ball is the only item.)
Stage 1: :ultbowser::ultroy2:on :npc: (Super Bell Hill)
Stage 2: :ultfalco:on Corneria (Main Theme - Star Fox 64 (Melee))
Stage 3: :ultwario::ultsonic:on :warioware: (free-for-all; WarioWare Inc. Medley)
Stage 4: :ultdarkpit::ultwolf:on Reset Bomb Forest (Star Fox Medley)
Stage 5: :ultken:(Stamina Battle, 150HP) on Suzaku Castle Ω (Ken Stage Type B)
Stage 6: :ultkrool::ultincineroar:on Kongo Falls (Snakey Chantey)
Boss: Master (and Crazy) Hand (Eternatus (Phase 3))
Dang, well thought out! I honestly didnt even plan a classic route, but this legit makes perfect sense.

On your other note, I would love to have Sirfetchd in. Hes definitely one of my favorite Galar forms, but what worries me is he wont get added because hes Sword exclusive. Who knows, anything can happen!
 
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
832
Location
Looking for new first parties that aren't Waluigi.
I may support Sirfetch’d more, but Scorbunny line’s my favorite of Galar’s starters, so I wouldn’t mind Cidnerace as well! I even did a Classic Mode route for it:

Cinderace: Showboating Smash (Fights characters who have a tendency of showing off. The Soccer Ball is the only item.)
Stage 1: :ultbowser::ultroy2:on :npc: (Super Bell Hill)
Stage 2: :ultfalco:on Corneria (Main Theme - Star Fox 64 (Melee))
Stage 3: :ultwario::ultsonic:on :warioware: (free-for-all; WarioWare Inc. Medley)
Stage 4: :ultdarkpit::ultwolf:on Reset Bomb Forest (Star Fox Medley)
Stage 5: :ultken:(Stamina Battle, 150HP) on Suzaku Castle Ω (Ken Stage Type B)
Stage 6: :ultkrool::ultincineroar:on Kongo Falls (Snakey Chantey)
Boss: Master (and Crazy) Hand (Eternatus (Phase 3))
How did I not think of a Classic Route? I'll add this and your support if you're ok with it.
 

RandysRage

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
271
Location
Somewhere between the North and South Poles
I'm don't really watch the anime anymore but were Incineroar, Greninja ect. prominent in it ?
In the anime, Ash chose Froakie as his starter in the Gen 6 season and found/adopted Litten in Gen 7; later on Ash's bond with his Greninja gave way to its unique Ash-Greninja form (which is used in its Final Smash btw) and Litten/Torracat was one of Ash's strongest party members, even defeating Professor Kukui's own Incineroar after which culminating in one of the most badass evolutions in the anime:

 
Last edited:

LightKnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
274
For anyone wondering, I intentionally made this as SPOILER FREE as possible while I talk about the anime and the franchise moving forward. The only thing I think I mention that is a direct spoiler is a Pokemon that someone has I'm sure everyone on this thread already knows about.

I recently started getting up to date with the Sword/Shield anime and am now on track with the story.
Cinderace's character has been really fun to watch and I'm curious to see where they take it especially after recent episodes.

In fact, I've been incredibly impressed with this series overall and all of its characters! Previously I had only watched the first episode which had to do with Pikachu and was kinda disappointed with it so after that I hadn't seen more till now.
However, I'm now at the point where I'm convinced this is the best series/season ever made for the Pokemon anime! It has the hilarity of Sun/Moon, the gripping narrative and battles of XYZ, and actually has a ton of continuity to the rest of the series!

After watching these episodes though I have a feeling that gen 9 is gonna be a game changer, perhaps taking the franchise and series in a very different direction than before. Similar to what happened with the introduction of X&Y. Part of me wonders if we'll even still see Ash in the main anime series continuation. I suspect not though partly because of the aforementioned points and the fact they've been making those new movies using a re-imagining of the character which I'm guessing WILL continue.
 
Top Bottom