Blazblue Mafia Extend: Game Over - NYANCAT In Charge!

[Spak]

This makes me feel stupid that i didn't consider the obvious answer of "we're being stubborn" and instead came up with a whole hero worship theory : |

Spak Images don't work, tells me I don't have permission to view it

Bleh, I was hoping I could just link them from where I posted attachments in the PM. I don't see it allowing me to upload the photos in-thread, so I'll just put them in photobucket and link it.

 

[Spak]

Here is the album. If you want all of the pages instead of sorting through the album (or if the album doesn't work; I just made a photobucket account to post this), here are the individual pictures:

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@Maven89 is it working now?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wish I had my vote, but I was hated and was about to lose my self protection I had before I stumped.

I shouldn't have stumped me thinks. But oh well.

Game was fun but I wasn't as active as I should have been.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ok, "bile" was probably a bit strong and over the line. I apologize.

Though I really did wonder if I'd be able to keep my enthusiasm for the game up if the mood in the thread went seriously south (like it did, twice). Fortunately, I rolled scum and could just lurk it out without damaging my win condition. If I had rolled town, the AtE stuff would have been far more distressing to me (like Slick found it to be)

Separately, I really do like and respect both Raz and Ryker. If I didn't, I wouldn't have signed up for this game. However, just because I like and respect them as people, doesn't mean that I have to like and respect every aspect of how they play Mafia. And I don't. And they already know that because we've talked about it before. That's the extent of it. I'm not trying to **** talk them, I'm just trying to be open about how I find certain things incredibly distasteful.

I would like to say I don't like where that game went either. People DEFINITELY stepped over the line, and more than once. That's super frustrating from my end because, as a player, I can tell them to stow it. As a moderator, I need to remain impartial and can either ruin the game with punishments or wrist slap them.

Personal attacks have no place in this game. Frustrated people should leave rather than insult each other and no one should EVER try and grab pity with out of game context.

We let things get out of hand in the past (I mean, Gorf exists) and I would love to see us bring it back in. I know Bardull was pushing it with his recent game as well.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

ALSO MOOSY'S ROLE PM POST!!!!
Just don't do that again.

Why didn't you mod kill him for that?

 

[Spak]

Why didn't you mod kill him for that?

It would been a Mafia auto-win

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He still broke a fundamental rule and one you don't do it it breaks the game.

 

[Jdietz43]

Setup thoughts!:

The general theme behind this setup ended up being to make a Town with many roles that are strong and clearable in a vaccuum and make them easily disrupt-able, chiefly through a mafia that has the ability to not only kill, but temporarily remove players, and an Indy who could kill large swaths of people at a time if let alive.

If you haven't checked out the Greenroom where I summarize the roles, players in the setup role-wise were:

Standard Indy Arsonist (that could ignite as many times as needed)

vs

Town Mason Jailer team (one who could jail, and one who needed to be alive to keep the jail functioning)
Town Odd Night Cop
Innocent Child
Town Informed Tree Stump (Hated with some immunity N1 and N2 to offset that they'd be a negative in the long run)
No Chill Townie (Hated 50/50 Dayvig and triple voter at-will before N2, but forced to use both or die.)
Town Self Watcher
Town Doublevoter (gets doublevote if the hammer)
Town Sleepwalker (immune to day actions, but randomly sleepwalks at night)

vs

Mafia Abductor (could remove one player for the dayphase each night, but stopped working after N3)
Mafia Tracker
Mafia Roleblocker
and Mafia Underinformed Traitor


The main idea was that there would be a town that was quite hard to deal with normally, but through strength of removal, excellent claims, and numbers could be competed with. In the long run, I think we failed a bit and made town slightly too strong (despite the fact the game was a clean sweep, I don't think it should have been as close as it should've been based on how many wrong choices were made)

So, the roles, why, and why not!:


Jin Kisaragi, Independant Iceonist
Overall this role was a staple of the initial setup idea. We wanted to be able to include an arsonist in some way (and make an arsonist related pun in the process). However, we (especially Ryker) were wary of making a game where an arsonist lives until Night 4 or so and suddenly blows the entire game up without warning, as that's kind of a feel bad for every other faction, not having any meaningful way to try and play around it. Ryker made sure that if we included an arsonist, we would also include a method of determining that an arsonist is in the game so it's not a salt-explosion surprise, in this game that method was the Tree Stump's information side-effect.

Did it work?:
Overall, I think the arsonist role itself was perfectly fine. But we stacked the odds harder than they needed to be against it. Initially the arsonist was going to have people told "They felt cold" as a way to indicate that something odd was happening to them, then sooner or later after Arsonist was revealed to be in-game someone would connect the dots. We changed the reveal however to be the entire role PM (barring only the safeclaim) because we thought that would be hilarious. What we forgot to do though, is stop telling people they felt cold (which was now no longer a weird vague hint that something was awry (or maybe even protecting against "arsonist!"), and instead directly told people they were doomed, when and how many). By the time this started to matter it was too late and the Iceonist died of natural too-town causes. But it was still too much in 20/20 hindsight, especially since it made our planned Day 5 message of how many people were marked redundant.

Would would Dietz change?:
If I had to run this all again. I'd probably just leave it as merely telling thread that there was an arsonist in play, and leave the role PM and marking messages out of it. Alternatively, keep the marking messages and merely say an Indy of no particular description is afoot.



Terumi, No Chill Town
We wanted to make a role that would twist thread's arm to activity ASAP. And there's nothing that can do that quite like an extreme claim or action that happens shortly into the game. By giving what would normally be insane abilities to someone who is forced to use them before N2 starts, we ensured that there'd not only be a shake-up but someone to talk about, possibly even before any flips happened. It's also a role that can easily thin out the herd, which was essential in what we thought would be a game that needed activity and a slot that could remove lurkers if they were a problem. The only problem with that? Both me and Ryker (for obvious reasons) hate unrestricted Dayvigs. The solution was to make it uncertain whether it would work, and since we especially dislike the insta-death possible to also make it secretly fail if they try and use it too early... That way they still get to start the game without ruining it for one player in particular if it's still been too early to make an actual read on their contribution rather than just slap-sticking them out of the game.

Did it work?:
In starting the game off with a bang? HELL YEAH. Did the rest of it work? ...Meh. Unfortunately it was used immediately instead of held for a gamestate where there'd be more to work with, which in a way was the intent, but was also somewhat disappointing. It meant we had to *******-mod the outcome as planned, then the slot died before anything else happened (as we semi-expected from a slot that would be naturally grimy in powers). It did start the game, but people failed to do anything with it afterwards, so in a way it was like RVS was just pushed back 48 hours once the talk died down about the shot.

What would Dietz change?:
Knowing what I do now, I think I'd instead make it so that the triplevote had to be used D1 to achieve the desired effect of starting the game with something amazing to talk about. But leave the dayvig restricted to only D2. It was hoped the dayvig user would hold the shot until a time when more info was available to make it informed on game-alignments instead of just arbirtary or based on players. In theory it was one of those "if they want to do it they can hang themselves" style pitfalls where it'd be an opportunity to make a mistake for their faction (or a big gain), but when the bad outcome is that severe to the point we felt the need to plan to *******-mod that eventuality, we probably just shouldn't have let them do that in the first place then.


Hazama, Beligerant Town
This role was chiefly a way to make our planned trickle of mod-info intractable, if only very slightly, while still playing to the theme of both removal and clears simultaneously! The thought was, it would be a double-edged sword and therefore neutral on the scale of the game balance, as a town essentially voluntarily killing themselves is always good for mafia's numbers, even if it means they can still speak, even if it's annoying if scum was pushing them at the time it happened. However, we very much wanted this role to be able to live until the point we deemed it appropriate to inform the thread of the arsonist, so we gave it some immunity from actions until then as an extra bonus.

Did it work?:
As a tree stump? Yes, it did work as intended there. A player got a chance to say what they wanted to for free in exchange for a free slot advantage for scum. The rest of it? No I don't think it really played out as we wanted it to.

What would Dietz change?
For one I'd make it more immediately clear that if you die die, the information stops, but if you tree-stump it stays. It was hinted in the role PM, but not explicitly stated. This gives the player incentive to play well BUT weigh the value of stumping for continued info vs possibly dying much more highly. The N1 and N2 immunity wasn't really necessary based on the strength of the rest of town, and it probably would have simply been better to make that D1 message the indy information so it's gauranteed to come out, even if it did have an equal chance of screwing over a town aligned role like Odd Night Cop. It didn't end up affecting this game in particular because the only time anyone tried to target the tree-stump during those phases they were also independently roleblocked by the Jailer, but it was I think, unnecessary. If we did this, we probably also wouldn't have made them hated. Hindsight very 20/20 here.


Carl, Innocent Child
This was a second role designed to garner discussion D1 and then die off. So what happened? No one talked about it and it lived until endgame of course! *shrugs wildly*

Did it work?
It existed, so technically yes. But as far as interactions went, it really didn't do any of the things we expected. It didn't draw protects or nightkils as a means to dilute the general power level of the game, and it didn't die either!

What would Dietz change?
Nothing, it just happened to turn out quite weirdly this game.


Rachel and Valkenhayn, Town Mason Jailer pair
Okay, this role was really interesting to us. We wanted some protects since the game was going to have two killing factions, but we didn't want to leave it as just jailer either. We thought the idea of connecting a Jailer to another confirmed town would be a great PR combo to help equal out the fact people would be regularly missing through abducts and likely the No Chill Townie would either kill someone or get lynched right away. A sort of backbone for town in the early game if you will. So, masons are very powerful, and Jailer is quite good as well, so how do you weaken it just a little bit? Make it so they're both needed alive for those things to work. And while we're going whole hog, why not let them talk to who they jail for giggles! We thought maybe this would be clear overkill with a cop and inno child, but thought "hey, but that's the theme of the game, and they'll almost certainly die soon since they're two slots trying to dodge three different removal abilities (nightkill, abduct, and Indy ignite) and they'll be running extra risk by talking to people secretly since it has the hidden disadvantage of tipping your hand to scum that you're PR's if you target one, so they'll certainly die or only be one extra clear by endgame right?"

Did it work?:
Well, the masonry and jail were quite instrumental for game balance buuuuut: WTF They lived until endgame!

Because of that, there were a somewhat unreasonable amount of clearable slots left in lylo but... hey whatever!

What would Dietz change?
Honestly, despite the hilarious outcome this game, probably nothing about this particular role itself. I quite liked it in fact! Instead the problem was that it existed with a bunch of other roles that also happened to simultaneously get to end-game one way or another. Bad math I guess.


Tsubaki, Odd Night Cop
In a game with 5/15 players as scum, towns going to need some bones thrown their way at night in case the other PRs don't deliver. Or at least... that was the thought. Initially this role was going to be Even Night Cop actually, but we thought maybe that would be too weak to matter based on the amount of players who a clear wouldn't mean much on (Masons, Inno child, indy) and the potential to be roleblocked, so we bumped it to Odd Night. Hard to say if this was an accurate guess or not had it actually come into play, but with the amount of alive clears at lylo in this game probably if it would've done what it was supposed to it would've been a bit much.

Did it work?:
Hilariously no. It was continuously roleblocked and abducted, but it did live to be a potential pain for scum in lylo. That was probably for the best however, there were a surprising amount of roles that lived when they weren't expected to already.

What would Dietz change?
Probably could've gone back down to Even Night Cop, despite the results.


Celica, Oblivious Town
This one was a "mostly for fun" role that would have a chance to affect the game in a meaningful way, but also might never be more than a VT. Celica was immune to all day-affecting actions (50/50 Dayvig, being double or triple-voted on, being abducted, having a convo with the jailers) but in return was a sleepwalker that randomly visited other players (meaning both tracker and self watcher could get false positives on their role). It was designed to be neutral overall, while still being non VT.

Did it work?
Yes, I think it did. While no one ever tried to use a day-affecting action on the slot, it was successfully tracked to a target which influenced Mafia's decision to kill the slot. A good spice of life role.

What would Dietz change?
Nothing


Lambda, Town Self Watcher
Despite watcher being a fairly powerful ability, this too was a role that was mostly for added spice, as most of the important things to be watched for were useless to watch your own slot for as you'd be dead or roleblocked from knowing who it was if they successfully targeted you. (I.e. Kills, the Abduct, Jail, and Roleblocker ). As far as actual useful things to do you could: confirm that the Tracker (who is mafia, oops!), the Enabler, the Cop, The Indy, and the Sleepwalker indeed had roles that could target. It was also a minor way for town to try and track down who potential Indy was if it neared lategame with this role still alive.

Did it work?:
Hard to say. It was lynched D1 before any night actions happened!

What would Dietz change?
Nothing


Bullet, Town Doublevoter
Once again, a role that was mostly to make some non-VTs. We figured someone getting doublevote from hammer would be both mildly useful to an active player, but also give opportunity for undo suspicion on them of being scummy as their ability would make them want to hammer at opportunistic times.

Did it work?:
Yes, but too well! What I don't think we expected for this role was to suddenly clear itself (kinda sorta) in lylo by being able to prove they weren't a part of a 3 man scum-team (as otherwise the game would've already been alpha'd). That was one more clear than we planned for, and we planned for a lot of clears already. It also would've been obnoxious for everyone to have to keep the game going in a 3v3 scenario just for this role, thankfully that didn't happen.

What would Dietz change?
I think with this hindsight, I'd probably try to get a different "spice up" role instead of the doublevoter.


Amane, Town Enabler
And as the final town member-padder we had the enabler. The idea here is since there's both a roleblocker, jailer, and abductor in play: it would be good interaction to give someone the ability to try and help people fight through it and get to use their powerful PRs.

Did it work?:
As we saw, the roleblocking was a very key part of how this game went. So the potential to circumvent that for some roles (like Odd Night Cop) would've been good. However, in this particular game, the ability was never successfully used at all, due to inactivity on Zaixl's part. Saddddnesss.

What would Dietz change?
The player playing the role


Kokonoe, Mafia Boundary Technician
This was Mafia's cornerstone role this game, and what enabled them to play against what was an otherwise on-paper superpowered multi-clear Town. With this role, not only are you getting your regular nightkill, but you can also "save for later" the second most pressing slot you don't want to deal with! It's effective as not only removal, but thread control. Letting scum remove more than one person at a time, even if only temporarily let them set their own pace this game. Removing your own teammates to try and save them from scrutiny was another, slightly less powerful but no less useful angle that could also be employed.

Did it work?:
Yes! There were ups and downs with the actual details of the usage of this role in the game itself, (like the fact that mafia put all their eggs in one basket N1 and let both their kill and their abduct be roleblocked), but it did successfully help mafia navigate a large number of potential threats when they otherwise wouldn't have been able to. It was also used for its secondary potential of easing pressure from a teammate, successfully I may add.

What would Dietz change?
Nothing, I'm extremely pleased with how this role turned out! I was worried that out of game people would be bored waiting for their chance to come into thread, but by telling people exactly when they'd come back instead of the indefinite hiatus of a real abductor, people stayed actively watching thread even when abducted.


Jubei, Mafia Tracker
To complement their ability to remove more than one person was mafia's potential to find the people who had important things to prevent from being used. Tracker was a perfect means to this, as well as giving mafia a very solid safeclaim to work with.

Did it work?:
Yes it did. Mafia was led slightly astray by the Sleepwalker, as was a potential downside, but they also used it successfully to peg the Cop in a lie about which day he was able to use his power, and who he visited.

What would Dietz change?
All good here


Taokaka, Mafia Roleblocker
Rounding out the mafia's methods of dealing with problem people was their roleblocker. A way to keep known PRs around but useless if they preferred to keep the player alive, but not the role. There purposefully weren't that many roles to RB meaningfully, but the ones that really mattered if claimed, like Cop and Indy, were.

Did it work?:
Kind of yes, kind of no. They successfully RB'd the cop, but RB'ing the jailer was pointless as both RB's resolved at the same time, which reduced their counterplay to the Mason pair a bit. It was only used twice as the slot was abducted for tactical reasons N2.

What would Dietz change?
Nothing about this role itself, but if I had more foresight there were probably opportunities to make this more meaningful instead of purely a Cop and Salty-Claimed-Indy preventer. Which was partially by design that it had small opportunity for impact compared to the otherwise game-bending Boundary Technician, but still.


And finally
Platinum, Mafia Traitor
We needed this role to make Mafia's worst case scenario better vs a stacked Town + Indy combo, and so we gave them that crucial 4th member as a Traitor, because anything else probably would've been too much, and there needed to be potential for crossfire with the main mafia group. Since the primary purpose of this was pure numbers padding and discussion disruption, we only gave them the ability to know the mafia role who would be the best off in a claim scenario: the Tracker. Since the mafia was secretly cats, picking the character who loves "Master Jubei", the tracker, as the Traitor seemed perfect lol. We gave them a flavor Beloved until they vote as well, mostly for fun, but in theory it could also be useful in that worst case scenario that all 3 other mafia members are trying to lynch you.

Did it work?
Like a charm.

What would Dietz change?
Nada


Overall, I think the setup and circumstances made this game slightly Town sided, and especially harder than intended for the Indy. But in the end Scum got a clean sweep minus the traitor (which they helped push for) because of some sub-par play and decisionmaking on the part of Town, despite having some really horrible luck with being roleblocked out of a kill N1. This was somewhat made up for by an AFK Town getting modkilled, but when you take into account that the same slot could've easily been killed by a Dayvig which failed, it really isn't an unfair thing to have happened as far as the setup is concerned.

Next up: Super Shout-out Spectacular!

 

[Jdietz43]

Why didn't you mod kill him for that?

No good options, he was a new player who didn't know he wasn't doing enough to paraphrase, and we already had just mod-killed Zaixl. We had to settle for yelling at him in PM instead because yelling at him in public would've just confirmed that he copy-pasta'd most of his role and just changed some words, which at that point was lylo. It would've been a very, very, bad feel end to the game with a mod-kill for a mafia victory.

We've made it very clear that cannot happen again though.

 

[BarDulL]

Ok, "bile" was probably a bit strong and over the line. I apologize.

Though I really did wonder if I'd be able to keep my enthusiasm for the game up if the mood in the thread went seriously south (like it did, twice). Fortunately, I rolled scum and could just lurk it out without damaging my win condition. If I had rolled town, the AtE stuff would have been far more distressing to me (like Slick found it to be)

Separately, I really do like and respect both Raz and Ryker. If I didn't, I wouldn't have signed up for this game. However, just because I like and respect them as people, doesn't mean that I have to like and respect every aspect of how they play Mafia. And I don't. And they already know that because we've talked about it before. That's the extent of it. I'm not trying to **** talk them, I'm just trying to be open about how I find certain things incredibly distasteful.

It's cool. As long as your ego isn't actually inflating to the size of our resident jester, it'll be fine.

For the record, bringing up out-of-game material to guilt trip or otherwise manipulate anyone at any point of time is going too far. I don't believe I ever actually did this, although I do know a player or two that did. I think they know that it was too much already, so I won't entertain that end of the dialogue any further.

 

[Jdietz43]

It's cool. As long as your ego isn't actually inflating to the size of our resident jester, it'll be fine.

For the record, bringing up out-of-game material to guilt trip or otherwise manipulate anyone at any point of time is going too far. I don't believe I ever actually did this, although I do know a player or two that did. I think they know that it was too much already, so I won't entertain that end of the dialogue any further.

Actually you posted your plane ticket for some sympathy points for being short on time at one point, that was definitely a little much lol.

 

[BarDulL]

Actually you posted your plane ticket for some sympathy points for being short on time, that was definitely a little much lol.

Honestly, I posted that so people wouldn't cry "OMGERD HE IS DODGING QUESTIONS," not necessarily sympathy points. It was null!

'Course, I ended up sending a flurry of messages on my phone while on my way to the airport to make sure the lynch happened, so it really didn't account for much.

 

[Jdietz43]

Yeah I know what you were really trying to say with that lol. I'm just sayin' that ticket was from Irl to try and gain an in-game advantage too!

 

[BarDulL]

Yeah I know what you were really trying to say with that lol. I'm just sayin' that ticket was from Irl to try and gain an in-game advantage too!

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I just want everyone to acknowledge that Glyph played worse then Zaixl, and maybe the public shaming will get Glyph to not act like a ****** and pretend it's playing mafia

I think Mallo is right, Dgames has this crazy hero fascination where everyone here wants to think they're some james-bond hero who will "do anti-town FOR THE TOWN" and it basically never ****ing works. I blame Marshy for it, but people need to stop it cause it's just bad play, and the only reason it works on this site like to play like abused housewives. Open dayvigs at the start of day 1 and players here will fawn on the ****** that did it. It's always a dumb move, no excuse, I don't care if Ryker once ****ed over a town and drove a great player away forever but guys lols he got mafia too (like four days later), it's still a **** move. So was Gorf's revenge and Glyph's attempt to fake a personality or pretend to be a human being, or whatever he was doing.

I noticed really soon after I got here that you guys literally have some sort of hero worship going on with players like RYker and Marshy and will essentially blow these players and attempt to emulate their every action. It's like some weird playground hero isolation mixed with just pathetic *** kicking, which I'll just point out isn't a problem because those players were capable of doing something with it. Others are not

You have this idea that people are just emulating Ryker, Marshy, or others here simply because of some hero fascination but that's not the case. Nobody loved Drew when he basically killed EE's mafia drive; most people regard that as a **** move, and one of the biggest **** moves ever to occur on this site. In fact, when Gorf pulled the same **** on Drew/Raz in my game, it killed a lot of people's motivation to play my game simply because of how much a **** move it is. The difference here is Glyfe's shot could fail, and I feel like Glyfe was even expecting it to fail with the way he was acting. Hilariously, he actually used the role as intended. The problem is that there's people like you who just want to ride him into the ****ing dirt for it when I don't think he deserves that. Call him a boner for AFKing afterwards, he definitely deserves that, but don't pretend that what Glyfe did is the same as what Gorf and Drew did in the past.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Also

Jdietz43

Your rundown is basically how I feel about it. You had a couple of neat roles that either worked specifically to the set-up (Fandangox's in particular) or were just really cool ideas (Zaixl's) but I feel like they get lost in how ****ed up the rest of town worked. Mafia and Indy were absolutely balanced in terms of their power--the problem is all the easy self-clears that exist in the game. Even some of the anti-town roles were still town because their actions were provable (i.e. J confirmed Glyfe did shoot him) and at that point you have to come up with an argument as to why the player is scum through that. The one thing about all PR games is that you can't have a high number of roles that confirm themselves (or, if you do, a good amount of them have to be scum), otherwise you run the risk of everyone proving themselves by a massclaim and scum getting ****ed by PoE. There needs to be ambiguity.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I think I would definitely keep hated on Hazama. The goal is to make him WANT to remove himself so that the numbers play out as intended. If he successfully manages to pull off staying in the game through that, then great!

Other than that, I mostly echo those comments.

In other news, Zaixl getting modkilled accelerated the game to MyLo a phase early, which was also unintended.

#HBC | Red Ryu He "paraphrased" but the ability names and format were the same. I had mercy because I don't think he was trying to abuse a loophole.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Before RR's info on D3 though, we were planning on shooting Slick and abducting J, to insure we didn't accidentally kill our traitor before D4. We just had to switch things up once we knew your role and that you had marked me on N1. We actually thought that if your N2 mark was still alive that you'd want to explode those 2 people N3, and we also figured that the track Raz, NK you, also gave us the best chance of winning if you or Raz had killed me overnight.

I actually marked Fandangox under the assumption that you guys would never shoot him--and then you did. I was actually considering marking Soup that night but didn't because I didn't want him to **** up the thread about the mark and create a bunch of needless paranoia about it and then somehow link it to me, so I picked Fanny as he's very easy to trust but also ignore and I figured you guys would've ignored him as well in the night kill. I was a little salty at that one as I saw no reason to shoot him whatsoever.

I actually did consider popping N3 and then not marking for the rest of the game though, as I was scared to death of Spak randomly deciding to track me. I wanted to claim Bodyguard really badly as my safeclaim (BP) is often an untrustworthy one and I wanted something to fall back on in the event I was tracked to an action. I then decided that that was stupid, as Spak (who I considered town) had no reason to track me as I didn't think I was high on his suspect list and just went for it. Then I got shot through a tracker, cop, and inno child claim and was a sad boy.

 

[Spak]

Also, without you and Bard I was thinking that town would fall into a disorganized chaos (which I assumed correctly). Worst-case scenerio, we would eliminate one of the strongest town leaders. Best-case scenario, we would eliminate the Indie that marked Mal. Your lynch and Bard's abduction made most sense.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Alex, I think you greatly underestimate how much wasn't clearable. Masons are always a one clear role. Glyph can't prove his alignment. Raz can't prove his alignment. Bardull, Fanny, Zaixl and even Maven can't even prove that their role is what they say it is.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

The issue with the town's strength in the setup, IMO, is mostly that the clearable roles were left alone. Enabler wasn't hurting anyone, now was sleepwalker, Self Watcher, or Doublevoter. If a NKill gets dropped on a clear there, at any point by any faction, then the game becomes much more reasonable at end game. It's not like it's even that much of an imposition for mafia given their ability to remove to roles from a night phase WITHOUT using their kill. I think that the prevalence of cleared townies on this end game is a fluke of the circumstances that wouldn't happen again if the setup was run another nine times.

 

[Fandangox]

Fanny as he's very easy to trust but also ignore

 

[Jdietz43]

Next: here's who people were, and what the Night Actions shaped up to be!

Arsonist: Laundry

No Chill Town: Glyph
Belligerent Town (Tree stump): Red Ryu
Town Odd Night Cop: Bardull
Town Mason: J
Town Jailer: MoosyDoosy
Town Self Watcher: Maven
Town Enabler: Zaixl
Oblivious Town (Sleepwalker): Fandangox
Town Doublevoter: Raziek
Innocent Child: SlickWylde

Mafia Boundary Technician (Abductor): Mal_Thug
Mafia Tracker: Spak
Mafia Roleblocker: Soup
Mafia Traitor: FullMetalLynch



Night 1:
Zaixl enables no one
Moosy jails Mal_thug
Mal_thug black holes J (fails, roleblocked in jail by Moosy)
Soup roleblocks Bardull
Fandangox sleepwalks to Raziek
Spak tracks Fandangox to Raziek
Bardull cops Fandangox (Fails, roleblocked by Soup)
Laundry marks Mal_Thug
Mal_thug kills Red Ryu (fails, roleblocked in jail by Moosy AND Red Ryu is immune tonight)


Results:
Mal_Thug is told he is cold
Mal_Thug is told he is roleblocked
Masons and Mal_thug gain a quicktopic
Bardull is told he is roleblocked
Spak recieves track result from Fandangox to Raziek


Night 2:
Zaixl enables no one
Moosy jails J by default
Mal_thug black holes Soup
Soup roleblocks Moosy (delayed by black hole)
Spak tracks Bardull (goes nowhere)
Fandangox sleepwalks to Zaixl
Laundry marks Fandangox
Mal_thug kills Fandangox


Results:
Soup is sent to the boundary
Spak is told Bardull goes nowhere
Fandangox is killed


Night 3:
Moosy jails Bardull
Mal_thug black holes Bardull
Soup returns, forced to roleblock Moosy from previous night action (cancels convo part of jail)
Bardull cops Laundry (fails, roleblocked)
Spak tracks Raziek
Laundry marks Soup
Soup kills Laundry

Results:
Moosy told he was roleblocked, no convo
Bardull told he was roleblocked, sent to boundary
Spak is told Raziek goes nowhere
Raziek gets a doublevote for hammering the last dayphase
Laundry is killed

Night 4:
Scumteam submits Raziek kill and there are no town actions available to stop them. Game immediately ends.




And last but not even close to least:
DIETZ VIP INDIVIDUAL SHOOOOUUUT-OOOOUUTS *airhorns*

(And as always, these shoutouts constitute the opinion of Dietz, and may or may not be accurate representations of "good advice". Take them at your own risk!)

1. Orboknown+Rake (FullMetalLynch)
This game you were: Mafia Traitor. I think you did great! Not only were you effective at undermining town without the help of the main scumteam, but at a few points in the game people had you as their strongest town reads! Extremely solid balance between being "helpful town" and purposefully getting nothing accomplished for town. It took a big over the top gambit that almost sank Bardull's credibility to get you even considered as a lynch choice. Noice.

2. J
This game you were: Town Mason. Your day play was decidedly okay. Not great, but okay. Obviously you had a lot of initial attention with the shot etc etc. But what I'm really surprised about is how you used (or didn't use) your masonry. I was really shocked when you guys jailed Mal_thug to prevent the kill N1(!!!), but then assumed him to be town without really grilling him(!!!!!) and pretty much left him there until end-game. Like it was brought up as possible, but then quickly dismissed without a lot of double-checking what could have been a really game-changing bingo. You also correctly identified that Soup was acting scummy, but brushed it aside for meta reasons and fear of upsetting him early, which led to him getting away quite free as well. Hopefully you'll be able to learn from that one and both double check your NA results' potential meanings and not let legitimate scumtells go solely for the players involved. Next time!

3. Soup
This game you were: Mafia Roleblocker. Of the scumteam, I do think you were the most openly scummy, to the point that it was deemed a good use of black hole to abduct you to reduce the time people could examine you rather than remove other threats. I think overall if you could work on doing fewer direct appeals to people when questioned about your play you'd be in a much better place. I saw a lot of pushes that you clearly couldn't fully justify turn into you trying to 1 on 1 convince people that it wasn't your fault as you were forced to backpedal. It worked as far as getting yourself not lynched, but it didn't get you anywhere as far as looking more town or getting things down for the scumteam, and I think in the long term and in other games that's going to hurt you (living is only half the battle). I think if you just took the time you put into defending yourself when things go wrong into plugging the holes in your pushes ahead of time instead, that would go a long way to making your play more solid. Otherwise as Laundry said, you get stuck looking preachy and opportunistic. Beyond that you used your roleblock as well as it could be in this setup.

4. Maven
This game you were: Town Self Watcher. Stuff happens man, sometimes you're the one lynching D1, sometimes you're the one getting lynched D1. You weren't wrong when you said you didn't like what Glyph did, but at the point you got around to saying it, people were sick and tired of examining it as an angle and looking for a different route out of D1. You not looking elsewhere quickly became that alternate angle out. Hopefully you live a little longer next time, but it seems like you were having a good time just watching and learning as this one progressed.

5. Bardilicious
This game you were: Town Odd Night Cop. Bard rofl. I have never seen such no-chill Cop play. We should've given you Terumi's role instead! You got that unfortunate RB N1, which was tough, but then you did something I can only say I don't at all agree with. You went rambo instead of chilling and pretending nothing had happened (so the RB would move on). Claimed, and called out a fake guilty on FML which was immediately blown up by Spak having tracked you going nowhere. Now obviously you couldn't have known that track would deconfirm your guilty, but I think really there was no need for the gambit. At the time you claimed you were decidedly of not great, but not particularly bad standing in thread, and though FML had some people thinking him town, if you really had feelings of why he was scum (as he was) you probably would've been better served just trying to explain them in thread legit. The way it shook out, you tanked your credibility to rock bottom, and then ensured you'd never see the use of your PR again (as both the Masons and the Mafia decided you were priority #1 for RB'ing, and you were abducted). And even then, the push itself on FML was more successful because the scumteam saw a big opportunity for a mislynch they weren't responsible for, not realizing it was their traitor. Thinking instead it was you because of how left field you were acting. Let that sink in: You lived because mafia thought your actions meant you were probably aligned with them. Sure, if FML was straight up scum (you got unlucky he was merely traitor and the motivations were therefore unclear) you're probably clear and down a scummer, but you also could've gotten the same result from just waiting and letting yourself try to cop someone again N3. The upside of that being if you're wrong, one townie gets confirmed instead of two townies dying on a gamble. Something to think about.

6. Red Ryu
This game you were: Beligerant Town (Tree Stump). Can confirm, you probably really didn't need to stump. You were only just starting to get pressure, and though yes you were hated, stumping guarantees you give mafia that extra step towards majority. Probably could have fought it a little instead of immediately popping it. Otherwise your play was fine, if a little sparse once you stumped (understandable, since you have no vote or pressure)

7. Raziek
This game you were: Town Doublevoter. I think you had good insight, or at least good thread presence and guidance when you were here, but it was hard to take what you said with much impact when- oops inactivity strikes again. Even if your opinions weren't necessarily right, it still helps to have a clear voice cut through the muk and make people think about what really matters more distinctly. Town definitely needed some solid influences to get it straightened out, but with J absorbed with masonry and you largely either catching up or not being around, that left the most townie person in thread as Laundry, the Indy. Not a place you want to be.

8. Mal_Thug
This game you were: Mafia Boundary Technician (Abductor). You did well. I know there were some speedbumps with getting used to a closed setup, but you pulled together to take proper advantage of town's shambles and did quite a good job looking mechanically town in thread. A lot of times being a good scum is less about what you yourself do, and more about knowing when to let Town continue to destroy themselves in peace; and that's exactly what you did here. Just be careful, since now that people know, they probably won't let you get away with just going with the mechanically correct analysis when the tough situations come up and leaving it at that without your own followups the next go around. What you probably already learned from this game as well: is how important it is as scum to kill off clears! You made the right decision to leave Slick alone at the start as he wasn't making a big splash in-thread, but no matter what when you're coming up to lylo it's important to just get rid of them! Even if that means leaving a stronger in-thread player who's probably town in thread's eyes alive, it's still more to work with than navigating around someone who is confirmed town. There's always room to spread doubt that the player who is oh so good is actually oh so bad, but when you leave a straight clear, you open the door wider for process of elimination scum lynches as you almost had happen (though it's also important to remember that losing one scum member in exchange for more time to NK the problem slots until you have a better pool to work with is also totally fine, you don't have to bring everyone alive to endgame if the situation isn't reasonable.) I also think you could've considered roleblocking Bardull instead of abducting him, as it would've been quite manageable to swing his overextension on FML to being scum unaware of his traitor and trying for one last kill. Instead scumteam seemed to immediately regard him as clear in thread's eyes, which I don't think was the case. (that might have just been from unfamiliarity with traitor though)

9. Laundry
This game you were: Independont Iceonist. Laundry! Town MVP. I kid, but I don't really kid. You played your town game very well in thread, and I think ironically the fact that you were playing better than the rest of the people still alive at the time you were NK'd was the reason you were taken down. I think you probably could've let off the helpfulness gas a little and you could've lived long enough to ignite both Soup and Mal_Thug, which would've blown the game wide open for you. Remember: when town is suck, it's your gain! You don't have to be the best member of town if you aren't actually town; you just can't be the worst member of town. All things considered though, you did quite well versus what you were up against. Ironically I think you being abducted instead of killed would have been a phenomenal outcome for you, as you'd have been safely transported to Day 4 with 2/6 other people marked. That's the luck of the NA's though.

10. Fandangox
This game you were: Oblivious Town (Sleepwalker). You did fine on paper, and asked some pertinent questions of people that no one else was asking at the start of the game, which was promising. In the end though you just didn't do a lot with what you were uncovering, which meant once you were gone there wasn't anything to be gained for town from your flip post-kill. Try and push a few people over next time if you can! You'd be surprised what you can do with some real pushing, even if you don't follow through with the actual lynch. Flex a little! If you never ask anyone else to vote with you, they probably won't.

11. DtJ Glyphmoney
This game you were: No Chill Town. You came, you shot, you were hated, you died. I want to say that was kinda par for the course for the expectations of the role you were dealt, but I think you could've done better to move somewhere constructive after the fact. I know it's obnoxious to answer questions from people over and over when they can't accept what you did, but you've really got to in situations like that. If you say "no more answers" and leave, you're just toast and that's that.

12. Spak
This game you were: Mafia Tracker. Solid. You had some moments where you tripped and scraped a knee and people looked at you, (like that time you said there were multiple factions and thread came to a grinding halt to fact check you lol), but each time you properly dusted off and made everyone look elsewhere while you continued quietly helping mislynches move forward. Now, I do think a bit of this is due to people unsure how much to hold you over the fire yet, (and having a tracker claim always helps!) but just try and take what you learned from this one for the next game you're in and I'm sure you'll be on the road to constant improvement.

13. MooseyDoosey
This game you were: Town Jailer. I won't sugar-coat it, you still have a lot of learning to do Moosy! You did an okay job of leveraging your ability to confer with J over the course of the game to inform your decisions; but you also let the fact that you had a Mason partner go to your head and affect every aspect of your interaction with thread, to the point that people were actively wasting time trying to decipher if you were scummy or not, and eventually didn't even believe your claim which got you lynched in lylo. Yikes! Remember: just because one person knows you're town doesn't mean you can slack on being a constructive town for the rest of the players. All that self voting and "okay sure try to lynch me" only made people trust you less, and in the end even J's word that you were town wasn't enough to save you. I hope this is a good lesson about not counting your chickens before they hatch lol. Not only is the game not over until it's over (cite "Scum should just give up" D4 post here), but you're not proven town until everyone else actually agrees you to be town either! That's okay though, pull up those pants and knock em dead next time.

14. SlickWylde
This game you were: Town Innocent Child. Innocent Child is a very unique role as I'm sure you got to see this game. There's no pressure, but also the onus is entirely on you to get something meaningful accomplished: very few other people will be actively investing time investigating a player who the mod just said was 100% town. In this case, you spent a lot of time in the game taking a very neutral stance, as if you were an outside observer in the game with your new confirmed status. The true strength of Innocent Child though, isn't in being a voice of reason (though that's good), but being a tool to put unbridled and unmitigated pressure on people you think are scummy. When you play as a VT, sometimes you do have to tiptoe around your opinion if it's unpopular, or the person you're questioning also wants you dead. But as an Innocent Child, there's no question of why you're coming at someone. No push from you is scummy, only incorrect at worst. That means you don't have to worry about how bad you look reaching for things in your interactions with people, as long as those things are actually important to reach for. You got a little better with this as the game went on, but still in the end I think you didn't have the impact the role could've had. If you have the chance to play the role again: organize! Rally the people! Tell them who the options are toDay and take no substitutes. Don't let others dictate your opinion. You're confirmed Town, so everyone can fully trust that what you're saying comes from someone who wants Town to win. They can tell you you're wrong, but they can't tell you to shut up.

15. Zaixl
This game you were: Town Enabler. Sad to see that we had to mod-kill you. As such, there's not really anything interesting I can say about your play, as there wasn't much to be had while you were around. Hopefully as you said, next time you'll join a smaller game you can get a better handle on.

 

[Jdietz43]

The issue with the town's strength in the setup, IMO, is mostly that the clearable roles were left alone. Enabler wasn't hurting anyone, now was sleepwalker, Self Watcher, or Doublevoter. If a NKill gets dropped on a clear there, at any point by any faction, then the game becomes much more reasonable at end game. It's not like it's even that much of an imposition for mafia given their ability to remove to roles from a night phase WITHOUT using their kill. I think that the prevalence of cleared townies on this end game is a fluke of the circumstances that wouldn't happen again if the setup was run another nine times.

Yeah I agree, it was a super unfortunate series of night actions in that regard lol. It also didn't help mafia left alive the Inno Child from the get go, which is definitely preventable. But them's the breaks, and scum still won.

 

[Jdietz43]

And final final finally: A big big shoutout to my boi #HBC | Ryker , for hashing out setup and interactions, and being eager to run another BB mafia with me. I probably wouldn't have had a chance to run another one this big without him!

 

[mallorean_thug]

I also think you could've considered roleblocking Bardull instead of abducting him

We couldn't!

Because Soup was locked into roleblocking Moosy from the abduct, as we decided N2 before Bard claimed.

Another reason why we probably shouldn't have used the abduct on our own roleblocker.

 

[Jdietz43]

We couldn't!

Because Soup was locked into roleblocking Moosy from the abduct, as we decided N2 before Bard claimed.

Another reason why we probably shouldn't have used the abduct on our own roleblocker.

That's right! I had forgotten about that lol.

In that case yeah, you did what was reasonable in the face of a Bardull threatening to investigate Spak.

 

[BarDulL]

I will stand by that gambit until the day I die. It netted us scum, we can argue semantics literally all day but the end justified the means. I am acutely aware that I looked like a traitor to the scum team as I did it, and it still worked out regardless. Suck it, dietz.

As for my standing in thread, I was constantly hounded by a few slots despite having never pushed a town lynch. Hard defended Glyph, didn't vote for Maven, yet I was still being looked at as potential scum. Wtf? I honestly do not believe even for a moment that if I hadn't gambited FML, we would have magically been able to pin spak/thug/soup. The game would have been over a day earlier because Town would have mislynched again.

 

[Orboknown]

And i still say that the "he lynched town twice" argument is garbage, and being always right is hella worse than being wrong.

 

[BarDulL]

And i still say that the "he lynched town twice" argument is garbage, and being always right is hella worse than being wrong.

That makes literally no sense, and I'm 99% sure you're still just salty for getting lynched.

We can go over this all day, but the fact is that I read you correctly. Deal with it.

 

[BarDulL]

'huh this slot pushed two mislynches pretty grimily, nah he can't be scum because he was wrong, bard must be scum because he tried to turn away the lynch from glyph and maven, he was just too on point this game"

Yeah, real smooth.

 

[Orboknown]

The result doesnt make the process right
I'd have called bull**** on the argument even if i wasnt on the recieving end. You said nothing about how what i did was scummy and just said "he was wrong and i was right so lynch him"

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Bardull, cut it out.

 

[BarDulL]

Bardull, cut it out.

If he is going to call my play garbage, I'm at liberty to make him out to be a wiener.

The result doesnt make the process right
I'd have called bull**** on the argument even if i wasnt on the recieving end. You said nothing about how what i did was scummy and just said "he was wrong and i was right so lynch him"

I'm so over it dude, it's nowhere near as black and white as you make it out to be. We're just going around in circles now. Cut it out.

 

[Orboknown]

If he is going to call my play garbage, I'm at liberty to make him out to be a wiener.



I'm so over it dude, it's nowhere near as black and white as you make it out to be. We're just going around in circles now. Cut it out.

You're play wasnt garbage
The reasons you were putting out (as i understand them) were. But w/evs. Good hame.

 

[Raziek]

I took a couple days away from the thread because I didn't want to say anything rash right after the game concluded.

First, talking about me. I didn't end up having enough time to fully delve into this game with everything else going on in my life currently. It's why I'm not playing mafia currently at all. I thought I'd be able to at least SORT of manage it but then the game exploded stupid quickly and I was behind for most of Day 1 and 2. I didn't want to disappoint Ryker & Dietz by not playing their game (especially because I love their setups), and I especially didn't want to burden them further by having them need to seek an additional replacement that they were unable to find.

Everybody already knows why Town lost.

1) Glyph caused a ****storm and AFK'd. Causing the ****storm was fine and by design, AFK'ing was not. Life stuff happens, but it still cost Town pretty badly as a result.
2) Zaixl had to be modkilled.
3) Ruy stumped earlier than he needed to. (This was a lesser mistake)

And finally, the issue we knew I was going to end up talking about: Day 4.

I really honestly don't know why J is surprised I didn't believe the claim. I spent a good portion of Day 1 and 2 trying to pick J's brain on various reads, especially on players I was uncertain on. Moosy being the big one here. I constantly got basically empty reads that really did nothing to make me trust him at all, and being told 'Moosy is Town' with no explanation just made me distrust both of you even more.

That became exacerbated by the fact that Moosy played badly. I was not at all alone in thinking you were scum, and your play on Day 2 was just bad. Self-voting, being actively useless in thread.... just not good.

So when it finally came down to Day 4 and you guys claimed Mason+Jailer, it just didn't make any sense from my PoV. Moosy was my strongest scum read at that point, and when the two of you started pushing me primarily for inactivity it just looked opportunistic as hell. You managed to play scummy enough that I scumread the Mason claim.

Coupled with the fact that at the time I was Townreading Soup and Spak (because they were the only ones giving any sort of trust to me), I didn't really have any choice in what I did. I was Townreading 2 of the scum members and scumreading 2 Town members because of the circumstances I faced. Mal_thug was kinda just in my remaining PoE pile. (I thought the Abduct was Indy and not mafia, so I thought we had more time) With J and Moosy pushing me anyway I literally had no correct out as they weren't going to vote with me, they were going to vote FOR me and not with me under any circumstance.

• "Razzle was never here. Came in and NK WIFOM'd and handed the game to town by double voting in MyLo"

This right here is the only beef I have with this game. I was here and active for most of Day 2. I had more than enough interactions with Laundry and the rest. My Day 1 was slight, but there was more than enough content. I kept my reads on the table, ACTIVELY kept my stances on conflicts known (Glyph, Soup vs. Alex, Alex in general). I did what I could with the time I had.

Secondly, I maintain that it made no sense at all from a Scum PoV for me to support my only defense in the thread, especially with a claimed Cop and Tracker. The fact that you still think this is WIFOM is absurd to me. NK analysis is absolutely valid.

Finally, I did not 'throw the game'. If I didn't vote Moosy, I was going to be lynched by the rest of the Town (You, Moosy, Slick). Please don't act like you weren't about to ALSO make the wrong decision, I just inb4'd you and took the blame because I had a double-vote.

I was presented a very clear choice. Die as Town and be the lynch that likely cost Town the game, or lynch my scumread with my double-vote even if there was a chance I could be wrong. It was a very obvious choice.

Should I have recognized that TownSoup wouldn't leave his vote on like that to allow me to hammer? Probably. Would I have been able to stop my own lynch when 2 Townies were already voting me and try to lynch Soup? Not a chance, I'd have been alpha'd.

Good games everyone, unfortunately game was hampered by inactivity and modkills. Stand-out players definitely Laundry, Bardull, FML and mal_thug.

 

[#HBC | J]

Uuuuh, I wasn't solely blaming you for the lose of the game. I was merely pointing out that you had to be prodded 2 and also did not do anything of near significance besides double-vote/NK WIFOM.

I apologize if it offended you, but I am merely speaking the truth from my perspective of how the game went down. *shrug*

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Honestly, I feel like the only reason I ran this town was because of the fact that the rest of town was so uninvested in the game. J never really approached the game, Raz admittedly stayed back due to burnout or exhaustion or whatever he claimed, Bardull avoided it because he drew Cop, Glyfe pretty much stopped playing halfway through D1, and Zaixl got modkilled for it. That's half of town right there. With the other half consists of Ruy (barely here+stumped himself), Moosy (active but misguided), Slick (kinda active but sat the fence), Maven (afked for 60% of d1, awful push on Glyfe when he came back), and Fanny (Slick-level activity, not bad content, but got NKed). All of those players either died early, were forgettable, or had no chance of leading and directing town.

Look at how many of those townies didn't interact with the game. By my count, the most active townies were Moosy, Slick, and Fanny. That's really bad and, regardless of personal criticisms that I have for each of you, that's the general one I'd take away from this game: as town, there is zero reason to play like this. You have to interact, you have to get your hands dirty, you have to make connections. While you can make mistakes, I'm certain that half of that list can plow through any d1/d2 wagons simply by playing the game and the fact that town played nebulous while the scum ran the thread is the reason why town lost this game.

 

[BarDulL]

I agree that the term "wifom" was thrown around a lot to dismiss valid arguments. For example, a few people (mostly me) said that Glyph doing what he did completely didn't make sense if he was scum, yet people were still paranoid of the slot to holy hell anyway and ended up lynching him.

I feel like WIFOM only really applies to situations where it legitimately makes sense for scum or town to do something presuming feasible incentives. For example, me supporting another slot in an argument at its most basic form could be done literally as either alignment. Reading into the intent is important though and a lot of people outright dismissed intent as well as context and just lumped Glyph's slot with "omg why would town have this role omgerd so scum" which in itself is wifom as holy **** because there isn't a reason for Ryker/Dietz to NOT throw that role into the game as Town.

You can call something wifom all you want, but unless the argument can actually be turned on its head to show feasible townie or scummy motivations contrary to the initial argument, then it's not really wifom.

Citing NK incentives isn't bad because Raz essentially (and knowingly) would have signed his death warrant after killing washed. I don't remember Raz getting any support from the thread other than WL, and it would have been easier for him to just kill off J or moosy in order to keep himself alive.

OF COURSE Raz as scum could have done that to make himself look more innocent, but just how feasible is that really? How likely is he really going to be able to keep himself alive if he does that?

Just stuff to think about for next game.

 

[Raziek]

You can call something wifom all you want, but unless the argument can actually be turned on its head to show feasible townie or scummy motivations contrary to the initial argument, then it's not really wifom.

Citing NK incentives isn't bad because Raz essentially (and knowingly) would have signed his death warrant after killing washed. I don't remember Raz getting any support from the thread other than WL, and it would have been easier for him to just kill off J or moosy in order to keep himself alive.

OF COURSE Raz as scum could have done that to make himself look more innocent, but just how feasible is that really? How likely is he really going to be able to keep himself alive if he does that?