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Bias in the Media: Liberal or Conservative?

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RDK

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Between watching ridiculously slanted news stations and the bare-faced attacks on certain politicians and other news stations, watching the news has become an actual labor for me. It's become unbearable to sit and listen to Kieth Olberman on MSNBC ***** and moan and take potshot after potshot at FOX News. It's almost equally unbearable to sit and listen to Bill O'Reilly talk about what a d0uchebag Olberman is. Today, it's fashionable among news networks, and even other organizations to call the race card on someone, or to claim that another organization has liberal / conservative bias. All I want is the truth, for Christ's sake.

It seems that no news network today can actually give the news without putting some sort of spin on it. This is solely my opinion, but it seems to me that the majority of media today is slanted to be liberal, nevermind how ridiculously conservative FOX News has become. The coverage Barack Obama has been getting is incredibly bare-faced (although McCain's campaign has done virtually nothing to help himself). I'm not a fan of McCain--in fact, I disagree with him on a lot of his platform--but come election time, I'll probably find myself either voting for McCain, or some independent party loony just to escape voting for Barack Obama. He's such a golden-boy for the press it's not even funny. Not to mention I despise his platform.

This whole thing that's been going on between FOX News and MoveOn.org is repulsive. It's basically an elite conservative organization fighting with an elite liberal organization. While I'd probably label myself as a moderate, I find myself sypathetic to FOX in this case, as MoveOn.org's agenda is so ridiculously biased, and it's all about slamming conservatives at every turn. Even the rapper "Nas" has jumped on this bandwagon, calling FOX racist against blacks, and striving to have a petition signed to take away "Fair and Balanced" from FOX's slogan.

This is coming from Nas, the same exact person whose last album was entitled "N!gger". The same exact person who is a blatant womanizer and advocate of violence in almost every rap song he writes. This may sound a bit racist, but I'm of the opinon that black people in America are their own worst enemy. At the root of almost every single one of these altercations is some pro-black organization blaming everyone else of being racist. Maybe if blacks didn't run around pointing out differences between races, there wouldn't be any problems.

My whole point is that it's all getting tired, and fast. Politics has become about throwing truth out the window just to win a political campaign, or try and smear the other side.

Where do you stand on the issue?
 

Jam Stunna

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Between watching ridiculously slanted news stations and the bare-faced attacks on certain politicians and other news stations, watching the news has become an actual labor for me. It's become unbearable to sit and listen to Kieth Olberman on MSNBC ***** and moan and take potshot after potshot at FOX News. It's almost equally unbearable to sit and listen to Bill O'Reilly talk about what a d0uchebag Olberman is. Today, it's fashionable among news networks, and even other organizations to call the race card on someone, or to claim that another organization has liberal / conservative bias. All I want is the truth, for Christ's sake.

It seems that no news network today can actually give the news without putting some sort of spin on it. This is solely my opinion, but it seems to me that the majority of media today is slanted to be liberal, nevermind how ridiculously conservative FOX News has become. The coverage Barack Obama has been getting is incredibly bare-faced (although McCain's campaign has done virtually nothing to help himself). I'm not a fan of McCain--in fact, I disagree with him on a lot of his platform--but come election time, I'll probably find myself either voting for McCain, or some independent party loony just to escape voting for Barack Obama. He's such a golden-boy for the press it's not even funny. Not to mention I despise his platform.

This whole thing that's been going on between FOX News and MoveOn.org is repulsive. It's basically an elite conservative organization fighting with an elite liberal organization. While I'd probably label myself as a moderate, I find myself sypathetic to FOX in this case, as MoveOn.org's agenda is so ridiculously biased, and it's all about slamming conservatives at every turn. Even the rapper "Nas" has jumped on this bandwagon, calling FOX racist against blacks, and striving to have a petition signed to take away "Fair and Balanced" from FOX's slogan.



My whole point is that it's all getting tired, and fast. Politics has become about throwing truth out the window just to win a political campaign, or try and smear the other side.

Where do you stand on the issue?
I don't understand how the media can be characterized as liberal, when there have only been 7 Democratic presidents since 1900, as opposed to 11 Republican ones. We live in a center-right nation, and the media reflects that. Certain networks/shows may cater to a part of the population, but in general I think the news coverage reflects the nation's feelings.

And Barack Obama getting more press time than John McCain doesn't prove that the media is left-leaning, it just proves that Obama-related stories are more interesting to more people than McCain stories are. After all, the media is trying to sell you a product, and they can't sell you something that you don't want.

This is coming from Nas, the same exact person whose last album was entitled "N!gger". The same exact person who is a blatant womanizer and advocate of violence in almost every rap song he writes. This may sound a bit racist, but I'm of the opinon that black people in America are their own worst enemy. At the root of almost every single one of these altercations is some pro-black organization blaming everyone else of being racist. Maybe if blacks didn't run around pointing out differences between races, there wouldn't be any problems.
Be careful here, because you're introducing a topic that has nothing to do with the original point of the thread.
 

Kur

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The media is so liberal biased. Even Fox News, which is supposed to be the conservative channel, is pandering to the liberals every now and again.

Put it this way, as I type this, Obama has over 300 major media organizations following him around. John McCain has exactly 2.

And don't give me that "Obama is more interesting so he gets more coverage" line. McCain has done 7 or 8 tours through the middle east in the last couple years, and the media could care less. The only time McCain is in the media spotlight is if he does something they can spin against him.

Try to find a media organization that even attempts to question whether global warming is real or not.

I am sick and tired of the media as a whole, whether they are liberal or conservative biased. I don't want to hear the liberal or conservative view. I just want the **** truth, and it is becoming very hard to filter out the BS and find the truth anymore.

The media as it stands now, is fully supporting Obama. If Obama says anything at all that would normally seal a candidates fate, the media spins it and covers for him. He recently claimed that he is on the senate Banking committee, and that one of his bills from 'his' committee was recently passed. The media called him on it, but then made excuses for him like "He is on a whirlwind tour of the middle east and europe, he is very tired!"

really... How tired do you have to be to say you are on a committee that you are not on?

Not only is the media completely in the tank for Obama, but they also try as hard as they can to undermine McCain. When McCain accidentally says "Iran" instead of "Iraq", then the media questioned his age and mental health.

It really is ridiculous.
 

Crimson King

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The media is neither liberal nor conservative, but it's just wrong.

Take people like Glenn Beck, a self-proclaimed libertarian around the right people, he will pander to whomever serves his best interests. This is how all media works. Whomever can and will pay them the most, gets the most coverage and bias. Obama gets a lot of coverage because he'll be the first black president. Anyone who says different is a liar, and this is a perfect way for all the stations to fill their minority support quota - support the first black president. Sadly, it seems they don't care about his ideals otherwise, they probably wouldn't support him as freely.

What's sadder still, Obama will still win just because the media supports him because someone don't decide who to vote for until they get to the ballot and pick the name the recognize.
 

Aesir

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The Media (news stations) are owned by corporations, so they're cooperate bias. The Media is anything but liberally biased however it's incredibly silly, I remember people trying to discredit liberalism by saying Hillary Clinton is a Liberal which is far from the case, if she's a Liberal then I'm a hard left anarchist.

It's rather silly.

Edit: Obama isn't Liberal, so if the Media was Liberal biased why would it cover Obama in a good light?
 

SkylerOcon

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Why do you even bother watching news anymore? I've found people on blogspot that are less bias than most news networks.

They serve to whoever will get them higher ratings. Since Obama is black, and he's well-liked, you'll get more coverage in general on him. The media wants higher ratings, so they'll change to get those higher ratings.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
I think the idea that corporations inject their own personal bias into their news networks is a little overplayed. Corporations exist to make money first and foremost. That is the biggest motivation behind what they put on their networks. Whatever personal beliefs the CEOs hold is quite secondary to that concern.

Fox News exists to fill a market gap, this is plain from the kind of commercials you see on that station, for things like NewsMax and whatnot that openly declare their conservatism. One might take it as perhaps circumstantial evidence that the other networks are 'liberal.' There was no seemingly conservative news network previously, and when one came into the market, it was almost instantly the most watched one. In general I believe that the liberal slant came to exist because of a sort of "cult of the victim" that people are drawn to; it's natural to sympathize with the unfortunate and to challenge the 'faceless corporation,' for example, which are typically attitudes associated with liberals in America. And the market responds by providing.

I think anyone that respects the free market should be happy that Fox News exists whether you like its reporting or not, because it challenged the pre-existing liberal lean; the "fair and balanced" claim, regardless of its validity, has pushed the market in a direction where networks are trash talking each other about who is more biased, and this will in general lead to less bias (at face value at least, for what it's worth) among them.

When I think of media bias, it's more to do with what they DON'T report than what they do. You don't really get plainly WRONG information as much as you just don't get the full story. There's not really much harm in watching mainstream news (not that I'd advocate it) as long as you look further into matters in your own time to avail yourself of whatever they left out (intentionally or not), and you are well-versed in logical fallicies, espeically fallacies of distraction, changing the subject, and appeals to motives. It's just like everything else really.
 

chucklesXcore

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What's sadder still, Obama will still win just because the media supports him because someone don't decide who to vote for until they get to the ballot and pick the name the recognize.
I agree, its very disheartening. So many people, including my parents know who Obama is now because of how heated the race was between him and Hillary. Not only that, but John McCain has almost nothing going for him in terms of that "appeal" to people. He may be a person with some ideals that people can connect with, but the way the "average" person votes is they will go with whom they know the best or whoever has the "rock star" type popularity. Obama, has been on Rolling Stone...what twice now? Who is the average person going to vote for?whoever's name they recognize. Most people don't know ANYTHING about the candidates. I believe I heard someone I know ask "isn't Obama muslim?" For one, why would that matter? Secondly, he's Christian. The casual votes blindly and whoever seems like the more appealing pick at first glance with no insight to their ideals. Very depressing. Personally, I like Obama and his ideals right now, but I have to whole heartedly agree that the media is biased right now. Most stuff I see on the news is favoring Obama and everything I've seen down to articles on websites seems to be finding something to scrutinize with McCain.
 

EC_Joey

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I don't see much mainstream media these days (thank you Digg), but from what I've heard about it seems like the media is jumping on every little thing Obama does that is perceived as "wrong", while glossing over the huge missteps that McCain has taken.

The "terrorist fist-jab" fiasco? The rampant accusations of Obama being Muslim? Attacking Obama's wife for saying "For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country"? I admit the media has been giving overwhelmingly positive coverage to Obama, but these ridiculous insinuations almost have me convinced that there's more scum working in the media than in politics.

On the topic of McCain, the media has also presented him an overwhelmingly positive light, but I don't think he is deserving of it. McCain's recent claims that he was the "biggest critic of the war in Iraq" are complete bull****, as this video shows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ieHwOm4ljA
Also, a couple weeks back I read an article off Digg that discovered McCain's prediction that he will be able to overturn the deficit with his economic plan, which apparently depends on the end of the war coming very soon after his election. However, he has repeatedly stated that he'll have the nation's forces stay in Iraq "as long as it takes" which could possibly stretch beyond his term in office. As far as I know, this was not reported at all by mainstream media.

From what I've seen, I am under the impression that most of the media is of the conservative mindset. A few weeks ago I remember seeing a story covered by news websites about the attempted impeachment of President Bush, with over 30 articles of impeachment presented. Then a week later, President Bush pardoned HIMSELF of possible allegations of warcrimes. As far as I know, the mainstream media did not cover this AT ALL. Were they really not aware this was happening, or did they turn a blind eye towards this?
 

M@v

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I hate mainstream media. They are so full of it you need a 4X4 to navigate it. Its all about the ratings. And what better way than to rip on some1 no one likes and make him look from bad to horrible? Me and my family have had personal experiences with the media, and I'll tell you from experience that they are horrible at getting the story right. Only exception was when they inteviewed me and I told them what happened word for word (House fire next door to me)
 

Aesir

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This was probably directed at me.

I think the idea that corporations inject their own personal bias into their news networks is a little overplayed. Corporations exist to make money first and foremost. That is the biggest motivation behind what they put on their networks. Whatever personal beliefs the CEOs hold is quite secondary to that concern.
There in lies the problem, they need to make money, hence the argument that the media is biased to corporations. Look it how much air time Kucinich (who has a long record of fighting corporate interests) had when he ran in the democratic primary. Almost none, if you're not from his state you probably only know him as the guy trying to get Bush Impeached.

Fox News exists to fill a market gap, this is plain from the kind of commercials you see on that station, for things like NewsMax and whatnot that openly declare their conservatism. One might take it as perhaps circumstantial evidence that the other networks are 'liberal.' There was no seemingly conservative news network previously, and when one came into the market, it was almost instantly the most watched one. In general I believe that the liberal slant came to exist because of a sort of "cult of the victim" that people are drawn to; it's natural to sympathize with the unfortunate and to challenge the 'faceless corporation,' for example, which are typically attitudes associated with liberals in America. And the market responds by providing.
There is no Liberal Slant, if you look at the conservative argument it brings up two points. Journalists are of the left wing and alter the news to fit that line of thinking. However if you look at the journalists most are either centrists or they lean slightly to the right.

Many of the Corporations that own the media which is limited to about 6 of the large ones in the US. Have long endorsed conservative politics and lobbying in congress.
 

EC_Joey

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Actually, there's an article about this very topic on the Huffington Post. There's plenty of evidence there to suggest that mainstream media is not trying to get Obama elected. It seems like the Republicans supporting McCain are leading a "Gripe Surge", making the general population believe that the media is on Obama's side. However, there's obviously been a huge amount of negative reporting about Obama so far. Here's the main bulk of the article:

"When the press aired the Wright videos around the clock for approximately six weeks while continuing to refer to Senator Obama as "Osama bin Laden," they've clearly been employing some kind of magic or trickery -- some kind of scary reverse psychology. You know, to help Senator Obama. Thankfully the American people were "wise" to it.

The McCain campaign even turned their griping into a web video this week to prove that the corporate media loves Senator Obama more than they love Senator McCain. Setting aside the idea of a web video from the campaign of a man who is just now learning how to "get online," it's staggeringly desperate and ridiculous of them to produce such a thing. Reason the first: because the content of the video, apart from Chris Matthews "leg thrill" remark, is mostly just reporters saying things like, Is the media in love with Obama? which, of course, doesn't prove a **** thing one way or the other. And, reason the second: because this other web video exists:

On Tuesday's edition of Morning Joe, Mika Brzeznski, Andrea Mitchell and Very Serious Mark Halperin (who publicly encouraged Senator McCain to convince people that Senator Obama is a terrorist) agreed that after three days of reporting the actual news that Senator Obama's overseas visit was successful, they should deliberately attempt to "trip him up" -- to "hold him accountable." Oh yeah? For what? We're gonna hold him accountable for not screwing the pooch on this trip -- the rat *******! We're very serious! Barack's a Muslim terrorist [Halperin only]!

Then CBS News, showing its obvious penchant for wanting Senator Obama to win, edited out Senator McCain's laughable error with regards to the Anbar Awakening -- another in an on-going syllabus of McCain ignorance, which further proves that he's really not the Mighty Old Man of Awesome Foreign Policy Experience and Balls. Suggesting that there's such a thing as an Iraq/Pakistan border in a Today Show interview on Monday didn't help either.
But as the rule goes, the only way the corporate press (Olbermann, Maddow and the like excluded) can make a beef about these things would be to find a similar gaffe or mistake by Senator Obama and report on that first. And since nothing recent exists... Pass! Next!


And today, the word of the day in the corporate press is... "presumptuous." Used in a sentence: Senator Obama is being presumptuous during his trip -- acting all presidential and dignified. How dare he be presidential while running for, you know, president. Presumptuous. During the live CNN web feed of the Berlin address, an anchor used it to describe the event. Joe Klein used it in a blog post today. Of course Joe attributed it to racist voters rather than very serious reporters -- racist because it's presumably a synonym for 'uppity' and we can't accuse the press of such awfulness. And Candy Crowley used it in her post-address analysis on CNN. That's a lot of coincidences. "Presumptuous" must really be a popular word. Odd that it's being used so often by people who want Senator Obama to win.


AP: "In a speech that risked being seen as presumptuous..."


TIME Magazine: "capable to become the Commander in Chief of a superpower -- without seeming presumptuous..."


The National Journal: "He is well aware voters here at home might see that as presumptuous..."


Washington Post: "Whether by the end of this week he will be seen as presumptuous or overly cocky..."


Chicago Tribune: "That means walking the fine line between looking presidential and appearing arrogant and presumptuous..."


Boston Globe: "plus the growing sense in some quarters that the presumptive Democratic nominee is getting a little presumptuous..."


Can you feel the wanting-Obama-to-win love radiating off your computer screen? No?


The reality is that positive coverage of any Democrat is limited and temporary for fear of networks and newspapers either being accused of liberal bias or being tossed out of the very serious barbeque loop. Regardless of whether the Democrat, in this case Senator Obama, is having a good day, it's somehow unethical to report on such good news for too long without deliberately concocting an antidote to appease the far-right. So rather than standing up as the only industry explicitly named in the Constitution and defending the very basic idea of journalistic integrity, the corporate media is all too quick to capitulate to these specious Republican attacks -- that is, when they're not tossing their ethics aside and taking bribes in the form of barbeque and McBusch beer from a candidate whom they're supposed to be covering objectively."
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
There in lies the problem, they need to make money, hence the argument that the media is biased to corporations.
I don't think this argument really holds for a corporation beyond the one that's actually providing the news on the network you watch, and their sponsors. They aren't biased towards the idea of the corporation, or corporate economics/politics themselves, just those specific ones. My point is that this is what the argument that they need to make money implies; whether this phenomenon is realized or not is another story, I'm just talking about the implication of the argument.

Look it how much air time Kucinich (who has a long record of fighting corporate interests) had when he ran in the democratic primary. Almost none, if you're not from his state you probably only know him as the guy trying to get Bush Impeached.
I live in a city that may have more hippies per capita than any other city above 50,000 people. I'm well aware of Kucinich.

There is no Liberal Slant, if you look at the conservative argument it brings up two points. Journalists are of the left wing and alter the news to fit that line of thinking. However if you look at the journalists most are either centrists or they lean slightly to the right.
Do you have evidence that journalists are actually such? Every piece of evidence I've encountered has the liberals vastly outnumbering the conservatives (to the extent that such a binary classification makes sense). And I don't think that argument is as strong as the argument I made originally which is that people are drawn to certain kinds of stories that incidentally contain attitutes typically associated with liberals in America. That is, simply because the "cult of the victim" and "bad news" sells. It's not really anything more complicated or insidious than that.

Many of the Corporations that own the media which is limited to about 6 of the large ones in the US. Have long endorsed conservative politics and lobbying in congress.
I don't dispute that corporations and government have their ties, but that doesn't necessarily have to affect what said corporation puts on TV; as I've said before the #1 motivator is what will make them money. By the way, if you're dissatisfied with the relationship between corporation and government, the solution is to cut government, not chastize corporations. One may be interested in this article by Ted Turner:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0407.turner.html
 

Kur

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...people trying to discredit liberalism by saying Hillary Clinton is a Liberal which is far from the case, if she's a Liberal then I'm a hard left anarchist.

It's rather silly.

Edit: Obama isn't Liberal, so if the Media was Liberal biased why would it cover Obama in a good light?
Say what?

Obama was officially recognized as the MOST liberal senator in Washington. He edged out Hillary Clinton, barely.

Come on, those two are the definition of liberal.

Universal health care

pro-choice

Anti gun

bigger government

tax and spend

amnesty for illegal immigrants

global warming alarmists

Against drilling for oil

Against nuclear power

Against Americans driving SUVs (even if they do themselves)

Hates rich people (even though they are rich themselves)

Hates big companies (because they have rich people running them)

Both supported that ridiculous 'cap and trade' policy

I am surprised they aren't vegetarians.




You name a 'liberal' policy or view point and they are all for it.

Recently Obama has been 'talking center' trying to gather more votes across the spectrum, just like bill clinton did, just like john kerry did, just like all liberal officials do when running for election. But if he gets elected he will go right back to the super leftist he was a few months ago.
 

Aesir

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I don't think this argument really holds for a corporation beyond the one that's actually providing the news on the network you watch, and their sponsors. They aren't biased towards the idea of the corporation, or corporate economics/politics themselves, just those specific ones. My point is that this is what the argument that they need to make money implies; whether this phenomenon is realized or not is another story, I'm just talking about the implication of the argument.
I dunno what you're trying to get at, but my argument is pointing out that those corporately bought news corps won't being airing stories on issues that might show them in negative light.

Back in the great depression GE lowered the quality of it's light bulbs to gain more profit (simple business tactic.) Imagine how this would have effect them if they didn't' get caught and had a media monopoly.

Do you have evidence that journalists are actually such? Every piece of evidence I've encountered has the liberals vastly outnumbering the conservatives (to the extent that such a binary classification makes sense). And I don't think that argument is as strong as the argument I made originally which is that people are drawn to certain kinds of stories that incidentally contain attitutes typically associated with liberals in America. That is, simply because the "cult of the victim" and "bad news" sells. It's not really anything more complicated or insidious than that.
Yep I do.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2447 they performed a survey that showed many of the view points of journalists and other members in the news media.

I don't dispute that corporations and government have their ties, but that doesn't necessarily have to affect what said corporation puts on TV; as I've said before the #1 motivator is what will make them money. By the way, if you're dissatisfied with the relationship between corporation and government, the solution is to cut government, not chastize corporations. One may be interested in this article by Ted Turner:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0407.turner.html
[/quote]

That and cracking down on corporate fraud, and making sure corporations lose the power they have. Limiting government power would help this.

Say what?

Obama was officially recognized as the MOST liberal senator in Washington. He edged out Hillary Clinton, barely.
Lol @ the fact you think Hillary is Liberal. Maybe compared to American Politics but on the Global Scale she's a slightly right Authoritarian


Universal health care
Not exactly a pre-req to be a liberal.

pro-choice
Not exactly a pre-req

If you honestly think liberals endorse anti-gun positions then you have a very negative view of Liberals. (then again I wouldn't blame you lol) I'm very left and I can tell you I would rather castrate myself then lose my right to own a gun.

bigger government
Again this is a misconceptions, Liberal does not mean you endorse bigger government that's an authoritarian view.

Again I'm against big government, hence why I'm against Obama and Hillary they endorse big government.

tax and spend


amnesty for illegal immigrants
I dunno what to say about these two, as I'm opposed to both.

global warming alarmists
Conservatives are guilty of this too.

Against drilling for oil
Losing dependency on oil is a good thing

Against nuclear power
Conservatives are against this too, because the population doesn't want it. the Fear of nuclear melt down is still evident. Plus until fission power is harnessed we still have the waste issue.

Against Americans driving SUVs (even if they do themselves)
Now you're being Silly, when have either of them said that? quotes will be nice.

Hates rich people (even though they are rich themselves)
That's Why Obama caters to the upper class white family right?

Hates big companies (because they have rich people running them)
That's why they've both taken lobbyist money and have helped bail out those companies in Washington?
Obama with FISA

and Hillary with the healthcare industry. (I find this one rather ironic LOL)

Both supported that ridiculous 'cap and trade' policy
Probably something really ridicules that some pseudo-liberal nut job in Washington put forth.


You name a 'liberal' policy or view point and they are all for it.
Impeaching Bush and Cheney, neither of them have expressed any desire for this. It's a Liberal view point.

Recently Obama has been 'talking center' trying to gather more votes across the spectrum, just like bill clinton did, just like john kerry did, just like all liberal officials do when running for election. But if he gets elected he will go right back to the super leftist he was a few months ago.
No he won't he's a panderer and flatterer, he'll go where the money is, just like every politician. He played the Liberal card in the primaries and suckered the younger crowds in(I was almost sold luckily I actually think for myself.) now that he's a shoo in you'll see his true colors. (if someone makes this racist I'm going to shoot you.)

Just a simple look at his voting record and you'll see he's a right leaning authoritarian. Any free thinking liberal/progressive who looks at the facts will tell you he's not a liberal or not liberal enough to be considered one.
 

Kur

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Messages
200
Lol @ the fact you think Hillary is Liberal. Maybe compared to American Politics but on the Global Scale she's a slightly right Authoritarian
There is nothing right about Hillary Clinton. She is as far left as anybody in the US besides Barrack Obama.

in 2007 Hillary was the 16th most liberal and Obama was the number one most liberal senators in the US senate.

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/



Not exactly a pre-req to be a liberal.
No, but a very popular policy among liberals.


Not exactly a pre-req
Also, a very popular point of view for liberals.


If you honestly think liberals endorse anti-gun positions then you have a very negative view of Liberals. (then again I wouldn't blame you lol) I'm very left and I can tell you I would rather castrate myself then lose my right to own a gun.
Most liberals in the US are anti-gun. Honestly it is simply because they have never held or seen a gun and are terrified of them for no reason really. But the majority of liberals here are anti-gun.

Obama said "And it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations," while trying to explain his difficulty in winning over working class voters in the midwest.


Again this is a misconceptions, Liberal does not mean you endorse bigger government that's an authoritarian view.
You'd think. But the ideas and policies liberals have do nothing but increase the size of government. Public schools, social security, universal health care, government subsidies, cap and trade, welfare, food stamps, etc. All of which increase the power the government has over the population (not to mention taxes) the Americans with disabilities act, the EPA, and the endangered species act.

I realize the last 3 sound like great policies and I would have to be a cold hearted jerk to be against them, but they really do a lot more harm than good. I would be willing to go into more detail about them if you want.

I dunno what to say about these two, as I'm opposed to both.
Maybe you are, but most liberals are not.


Conservatives are guilty of this too.
Not nearly to the degree that liberals are. And with the media being mostly liberal, most people simply have not heard anything opposing the idea of global warming. They simply accept it because it is all over the place. Specials on the discovery channel and everything.


Losing dependency on oil is a good thing
Of course it is! But alternative fuel technologies will simply not be ready in time. We just can not afford to pay $20 a gallon for gas until the alternative fuel market can supply enough cars for the population. Not only that but we need oil for energy to power our homes and businesses. Simply drilling now will reduce the price of gas and oil in the US dramatically. When the alternative fuels take over, we will also have supply to sell to other countries.

And not drilling will not make us less dependent on oil. It will just keep the shortage growing and suck up the funds that would have otherwise been used to advance the alternative fuel technologies. We need to do both. Drill and advance the tech.


Conservatives are against this too, because the population doesn't want it. the Fear of nuclear melt down is still evident. Plus until fission power is harnessed we still have the waste issue.
What nuclear meltdown? These fears are based on nothing. 3 mile island happened so long ago most people have no idea what you would even be talking about. The technologies have come so far in the last 30 years it is incredible. And even 3 mile island was not a melt down. The plants safety protocols kicked in and it shut down. Everything went as it was supposed to. With current technologies there is really no way for a melt down, or even a radiation leak to occur. It has something to do with special glass beads that requires a long explanation.

And what waste issue? Spent cores can be safely transported in specially designed containers that can withstand being hit by freight trains, 2000+ degree fires, and various other forms of abuse.

The spent cores would be stored at a site called Yucca mountain. The area is exceptionally stable, and well suited to storage of spent cores. There is enough space to safely store the spent cores for tens of thousands of years. This site is almost complete. All it would take to finish it is for the federal government to lift the ban on nuclear power plants.

France gets something like 70% of their energy from nuclear plants and they love it. They don't have any problems at all with it.


Now you're being Silly, when have either of them said that? quotes will be nice.
Barrack Obama said "We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times ... and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK."

There, a quote. Obama really does think that all US citizens should give up our SUVs, turn up our thermostats, and cut back our food consumption. Because according to liberals, everything is a zero sum game. If I don't go back for seconds at the dinner table, then some starving kid in Burma gets to eat one more meal.. Or some such stupidity.


That's Why Obama caters to the upper class white family right?
?? He wants to raise taxes on everybody making over $75,000 a year. And raise them even further on everybody making over $125,000 a year.

His wife told women in small towns not to pursue jobs in corporate offices, or high paying jobs, but instead to go into the service industry. Not that there is anything wrong with being a maid, cook, nurse, or whatever, but to tell a person not to become wealthy? WTF?


That's why they've both taken lobbyist money and have helped bail out those companies in Washington?
Obama with FISA

and Hillary with the healthcare industry. (I find this one rather ironic LOL)
I believe I pointed out that they were hypocrites. They will take money from anybody who offers it. But they will always turn around and say that the rich should pay more taxes and the poor should pay lower taxes. Even if as it is now, the top 1% of income earners pay 90% of the taxes in this country. The idea of everybody paying the same tax rate is completely alien to them.


Probably something really ridicules that some pseudo-liberal nut job in Washington put forth.
The cap and trade program is the liberals attempt to reduce CO2 emissions to reduce the effects of global warming (which isn't real in the first place) and basically amounts to a quota. A company is assigned by the government (as if they would know) a certain amount of CO2 production per year. If they can not operate under that limit, they must by points from another business. If they can operate under the limit, they can sell their points. It can't possibly work and is completely useless even if it did. It is going to do nothing but increase the price of all consumer goods, gas, energy, and food. And the liberals are eating it up like wedding cake.




Impeaching Bush and Cheney, neither of them have expressed any desire for this. It's a Liberal view point.
They are at least smart enough to realize there is nothing Bush has done that is grounds for impeachment. They both have had strong vocal negativity about Bush however.


No he won't he's a panderer and flatterer, he'll go where the money is, just like every politician. He played the Liberal card in the primaries and suckered the younger crowds in(I was almost sold luckily I actually think for myself.) now that he's a shoo in you'll see his true colors. (if someone makes this racist I'm going to shoot you.)

Just a simple look at his voting record and you'll see he's a right leaning authoritarian. Any free thinking liberal/progressive who looks at the facts will tell you he's not a liberal or not liberal enough to be considered one.
Oh he will pander and flatter. But as soon as he is actually in office, he will go back to being the hard left liberal he has always been. Months ago he was defiantly against drilling for oil, today he is somewhat for it under certain circumstances. Once he is elected he will do his ****edest to keep drilling banned.



Anyway, I never said that any of those things makes you a certified liberal, just that they are generally liberal view points and a person who holds all or most of them is probably a liberal.
 

Aesir

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I don't want to go point for point, but speaking is one thing but actions are another. I think we're in agreement that Liberals in the US are ******** and hypocrites (well most of them).

Looking at Obama and Hillary's Voting Record I can tell they're not authentic liberals, They talk about stopping lobbiest but they take the most share. Hillary talks about Universal health Care but talks about a system where the government controls the health care rather then a single player system that the Canadians have. (which is a far better system then Hillary's ******** version.) Then you have Obama who does nothing but flip flop on the issues, I like a Candidate that's consistent in his views not, who can I sucker into voting for me. Don't get me started On McCain....


I'm for most of those things though, Public Schools, Single Payer, blah blah I'm for a lot of that, as they're not horrible ideas other countries manage with them just fine. It can be done, just it can't be sloppily implemented.

The Nuclear Issue:
I know meltdowns don't happen anymore, I'm speaking form the public perspective the fear is still in their minds.

if you want to go into more detail about this maybe we should take it to another thread, I just realized I'm derailing. =(
 

Kur

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Joined
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Messages
200
I don't want to go point for point, but speaking is one thing but actions are another. I think we're in agreement that Liberals in the US are ******** and hypocrites (well most of them).
I wouldn't say they are ********. They are just easily persuaded. Most people mean well, and if a good looking young guy gets on TV and says "We can't allow these big evil corporations to continue to pump CO2 into our atmosphere unchecked. If we continue as we are then within 10 years time the earth will become almost inhospitable. I fully support the Cap and Trade bill that would bring CO2 production down by 50% by the year 2020, taking a large step towards reducing the effects of global warming."

People hear this kind of thing and they think to themselves "Sounds good to me, I've seen enough movies to know that all corporations are big, evil, greedy, and don't care about the environment. I'll vote for this guy." And of course, 95% of the media caters to everything the liberals want so most people never hear the flip side of these things. They just think "Well it must be true, I saw it on CNN!"

Looking at Obama and Hillary's Voting Record I can tell they're not authentic liberals, They talk about stopping lobbiest but they take the most share. Hillary talks about Universal health Care but talks about a system where the government controls the health care rather then a single player system that the Canadians have. (which is a far better system then Hillary's ******** version.) Then you have Obama who does nothing but flip flop on the issues, I like a Candidate that's consistent in his views not, who can I sucker into voting for me. Don't get me started On McCain....
Liberals in this country have veered far from what the word 'liberal' used to mean. Originally liberalism was all about personal liberty (basically the conservatives motto these days) and has since become about 'taking care of people'. Liberals want to tax you so they can put me through school. Tax you so they can have my tonsils out. Tax you so they can pay my mortgage payment. Tax you so they can give me foodstamps. Tax you so they can pay for half of my hybrid car. It all amounts to redistribution of wealth. That is why liberals always go on and on about "there is a ever increasing gap between the rich and the poor".

That link I provided showing their ranking as the 1st and 16th most liberal senators, said it made those rankings by looking at 99 key votes made in the senate. Here is a list of those votes.

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/votes.htm

So the voting record clearly shows Hillary and Obama as liberal.

Even a single player system controlling health care (assuming that single player is not the government) is completely opposite anything the founding fathers would have wanted for this country. Free market healthcare with absolutely no government subsidies is what we should be using. That way employers have more money to pay their employees, people have more money to spend on whatever they want, and health insurance companies (no longer receiving government subsidies) will be forced to lower rates to compete with each other. Free market works. It always has, and always will.

As I've pointed out, Obama isn't really flip flopping. He is just lying. He will say one thing to a group of people and then the very next day he will say the opposite to another group. He will say whatever he needs to say to get elected.

As far as McCain goes, there is a huge difference between flip flopping and changing your views based on new evidence. McCain has never said one thing than said another the next day while claiming "I have always said that..." as Obama continually does. If McCain changes his views he explains why and sticks to his new view even if a lot of people do not like it. Though you may never know any of this by watching the liberally biased media.


I'm for most of those things though, Public Schools, Single Payer, blah blah I'm for a lot of that, as they're not horrible ideas other countries manage with them just fine. It can be done, just it can't be sloppily implemented.
Yes and the US has managed 'just fine' with public schools for a while, but look what is happening now. Our education system is horrible. Sure, it is better than Kenya, but it should be so much better. Home schooled and private schooled students continually have better test scores (college entrance scores, SATs, etc.) than public school students.

Social Security was a big liberal idea that meant well, and worked for a few decades, but look what is happening now. The system is running out of money, taxes have to be raised to continue funding the people drawing from SS right now and taxes will have to be raised much more to keep the program going for when you and I are old enough to draw.

The conservative response to these things is simple. Personal responsibility. Let people pay lower taxes and let them use the extra money themselves. Let people find a school for their children and let them save for retirement however they wish.

The Nuclear Issue:
I know meltdowns don't happen anymore, I'm speaking form the public perspective the fear is still in their minds.
Exactly. And liberals know that the dangers are almost insignificant now too. However that doesn't stop them from going haywire if nuclear power is even mentioned. They are propagating fear and ignorance to further their own agendas. They happily let people think that a melt down is a 50/50 possibility, and that any degree of a melt down leads directly to a nuclear explosion, mushroom cloud included.

Conservatives just want cheap, safe, energy and to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Nuclear power can do all of that, all without any smoke or pollution.


if you want to go into more detail about this maybe we should take it to another thread, I just realized I'm derailing. =(
eh.. it all relates. The media is doing a bang up job covering for the liberals on all of these issues.
 
D

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I give your silly liberal bashing a 2.5/10 on the troll scale. Grow up, man. You're like almost 30.
 

blazedaces

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As I've pointed out, Obama isn't really flip flopping. He is just lying. He will say one thing to a group of people and then the very next day he will say the opposite to another group. He will say whatever he needs to say to get elected.
Can you provide any evidence supporting this statement? I'm not doubting you, I just would really like to see it for myself.

-blazed
 

Aesir

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I wouldn't say they are ********. They are just easily persuaded. Most people mean well, and if a good looking young guy gets on TV and says "We can't allow these big evil corporations to continue to pump CO2 into our atmosphere unchecked. If we continue as we are then within 10 years time the earth will become almost inhospitable. I fully support the Cap and Trade bill that would bring CO2 production down by 50% by the year 2020, taking a large step towards reducing the effects of global warming."

People hear this kind of thing and they think to themselves "Sounds good to me, I've seen enough movies to know that all corporations are big, evil, greedy, and don't care about the environment. I'll vote for this guy." And of course, 95% of the media caters to everything the liberals want so most people never hear the flip side of these things. They just think "Well it must be true, I saw it on CNN!"
The Media doesn't cater to what Liberals want, you've said this countless times and all you have to say for it is. "They give Obama more Screen time." I've been following both their campaigns, Obamas getting more screen time, because he's doing more. There's a more simple answer then that, Americans don't want another pro-war republican candidate, they tried that with Bush twice, the sooner the republicans reject the neo-cons and embrace their Conservative roots the quicker you'll see their candidates get more press coverage.




Liberals in this country have veered far from what the word 'liberal' used to mean. Originally liberalism was all about personal liberty (basically the conservatives motto these days) and has since become about 'taking care of people'. Liberals want to tax you so they can put me through school. Tax you so they can have my tonsils out. Tax you so they can pay my mortgage payment. Tax you so they can give me foodstamps. Tax you so they can pay for half of my hybrid car. It all amounts to redistribution of wealth. That is why liberals always go on and on about "there is a ever increasing gap between the rich and the poor".

That link I provided showing their ranking as the 1st and 16th most liberal senators, said it made those rankings by looking at 99 key votes made in the senate. Here is a list of those votes.

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/votes.htm

So the voting record clearly shows Hillary and Obama as liberal.
John Pilger Says other wise.

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=497

Obama stands slightly left on most social issues, that's as left as he goes.

two common bills Liberals were against:

The Patriot Act, and FISA

Guess who voted for both?

DING DING OBAMA.

McCain dodged the vote for FISA.

Even a single player system controlling health care (assuming that single player is not the government) is completely opposite anything the founding fathers would have wanted for this country. Free market healthcare with absolutely no government subsidies is what we should be using. That way employers have more money to pay their employees, people have more money to spend on whatever they want, and health insurance companies (no longer receiving government subsidies) will be forced to lower rates to compete with each other. Free market works. It always has, and always will.
59% of Doctors approve of a single payer system:

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_doctors_revolt


There is a common misconception that Single payer means it's run by the Government that's incorrect, it would be run publicly by agencies which will decide how coverage will work, government will have very little to say if anything at all.

Free Market Health care has been wasteful, it's failed in the past and will likely fail again. There's a reason our Healthcare is ranked below the rest of the western world over all.

As I've pointed out, Obama isn't really flip flopping. He is just lying. He will say one thing to a group of people and then the very next day he will say the opposite to another group. He will say whatever he needs to say to get elected.
You just described Flip flopping you realize that right?

As far as McCain goes, there is a huge difference between flip flopping and changing your views based on new evidence. McCain has never said one thing than said another the next day while claiming "I have always said that..." as Obama continually does. If McCain changes his views he explains why and sticks to his new view even if a lot of people do not like it. Though you may never know any of this by watching the liberally biased media.
So lets get this straight, when Obama flip flops it's flip flopping, when McCain does it it's an informed decision?

Bias Much?
Yes and the US has managed 'just fine' with public schools for a while, but look what is happening now. Our education system is horrible. Sure, it is better than Kenya, but it should be so much better. Home schooled and private schooled students continually have better test scores (college entrance scores, SATs, etc.) than public school students.
The fault isn't the Public Schools it's the foundation of the institution, There's virtually no Accountability, Funds are often times wasted (much like our military) Political agendas usually from school boards, and of course No Child Left Behind has probably done the most damage recently.

Public Schooling can work, like I've said before it needs to be implemented correctly and problems need to be addressed rather then sweeping them under the rug.

Social Security was a big liberal idea that meant well, and worked for a few decades, but look what is happening now. The system is running out of money, taxes have to be raised to continue funding the people drawing from SS right now and taxes will have to be raised much more to keep the program going for when you and I are old enough to draw.
A PRA (Personal Retirement Acount) would likely be the best bet in Social Security reform, it avoids higher taxation which is always good.



The conservative response to these things is simple. Personal responsibility. Let people pay lower taxes and let them use the extra money themselves. Let people find a school for their children and let them save for retirement however they wish.
That may have worked in the early stages of America however now it wouldn't work, in a free market Corporate fraud is a huge problem, it'll only get worse over time.

Exactly. And liberals know that the dangers are almost insignificant now too. However that doesn't stop them from going haywire if nuclear power is even mentioned. They are propagating fear and ignorance to further their own agendas. They happily let people think that a melt down is a 50/50 possibility, and that any degree of a melt down leads directly to a nuclear explosion, mushroom cloud included.
It's still a resource that can be run out, not to mention you still need to use machines that run on oil to actually mine the stuff.

But other then that it's clean.

Conservatives just want cheap, safe, energy and to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Nuclear power can do all of that, all without any smoke or pollution.
No real comment on this.




eh.. it all relates. The media is doing a bang up job covering for the liberals on all of these issues.
There's no Liberal Bias in the Media that's just a horrible myth, nothing more, nothing less.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2447 <-- Most Reporters aren't very liberal.

Most people in the US see themselfs as Conservative:
Total Liberal 21
Total Conservative 44

taken from here: http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/client/act_dsp_pdf.cfm?name=mr080505-2topline.pdf&id=3909
 

Kur

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Joined
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Messages
200
The Media doesn't cater to what Liberals want, you've said this countless times and all you have to say for it is. "They give Obama more Screen time." I've been following both their campaigns, Obamas getting more screen time, because he's doing more. There's a more simple answer then that, Americans don't want another pro-war republican candidate, they tried that with Bush twice, the sooner the republicans reject the neo-cons and embrace their Conservative roots the quicker you'll see their candidates get more press coverage.
The media may not be catering to liberals, (though they certainly do on occasion) but they are doing their best to shine liberal views and candidates in a better light than conservatives.

And your own words provide an example of just what I am talking about. McCain is NOT a pro-war candidate. He simply does not want to pull out of Iraq prematurely. The media took his 'in Iraq for 100 years' comment completely out of context and used it to make a lot of people believe McCain actually wants to be in Iraq for 100 years.

And it is not simply about screen time either. Obama is not 'doing more' than McCain, it just looks that way because of the hugely biased media coverage. If the media does cover McCain it is only to talk about how old he is, or his trip to the doctor to have some skin removed. If it ever goes beyond that they go out of their way to make him sound like a war mongering old fool.

You see Obama on the news and it is as if he is the second coming of Jesus. The media ask him simple questions. If anybody ever sneaks a serious question in, he doesn't answer but instead lectures the reporter and reprimands him/her for 'distracting remarks' and the media just apologizes and backs down.

When Obama says something horribly stupid (which he often does) the media either do not report it, or go out of their way to lessen the impact. "Oh he is very tired, he's been on the road for 24 hours... He simply misspoke, fumbled his words."

If McCain so much as says 'iran' instead of 'iraq' the media is all over him accusing him of having a senior moment and questioning if he is going senile.

The media is completely in the tank for Obama. They want him to be elected so badly it hurts. They want to be able to go home at the end of the day on Nov 5 and tell their families that they helped get the first black president elected.





I'm sorry, I have no idea who this guy is, but he really seems like the typical, liberal, reporter. He starts his column with horror stories and moves on to simply state that the US is evil for dropping bombs, and that because Obama thinks that a war, somewhere, for any reason, may be good, he must be a war monger just like Bush.



Obama stands slightly left on most social issues, that's as left as he goes.
Obama is so far left on most issues that he is in danger of falling off the slider.

two common bills Liberals were against:

The Patriot Act, and FISA

Guess who voted for both?

DING DING OBAMA.

McCain dodged the vote for FISA.
First of all, McCain is barely conservative. Conservatives in the US actually can't stand McCains 'center' views on a lot of issues, but are realizing that he is much more conservative than Obama.

Even Bush isn't that conservative. He is more of a slightly right kind of guy as well.

Also, just because a liberal votes for a couple of bills that most liberals oppose, does not make them any less liberal.


Here is a quote from one doctor in the above linked article.

"We've had a virtual recession over the last six years, with more people unable to get insurance and more doctors not getting paid," he states. "There is an overall sense that the system doesn't work, and, worse, there's been no real effort to fix it."

First of all, there is no recession, we are in a (comparatively small) economic slow down. The last 6 years have seen an economy climb through the roof and then slow down to level off. The economy has not gone down one bit, it just is not growing like it was since mid 2002.

Second, if people decide to cancel their insurance to save money, that is their own choice. The US still has a 95% employment rate. Yes, people have lost their jobs, but far more have kept them.

Third, an 'overall sense' about the system is nothing more than a guess. The system does work and has been working. There is no recession and therefor nothing to 'fix'.

This doctor is basically saying "Less people are paying me money so I want the government to force EVERYBODY to have health care whether they want to pay for it or not so I can get more money."


There is a common misconception that Single payer means it's run by the Government that's incorrect, it would be run publicly by agencies which will decide how coverage will work, government will have very little to say if anything at all.
Except that those public agencies will work directly for the government, like garbage disposal companies. And the money that funds the programs is raised by directly taxing people, forcing people to pay for the health care of other people.

Free Market Health care has been wasteful, it's failed in the past and will likely fail again. There's a reason our Healthcare is ranked below the rest of the western world over all.
Yeah, because the US does not have a free market healthcare system. Just about half of all healthcare plans are paid for by the government either directly or through government run businesses. The government also pays subsidies to health insurance companies and requires that businesses pay a percentage of health insurance payments for their employees. The only way a typical person could ever choose what health care provider they want, is by getting a new job that uses that provider. There is almost nothing 'free market' about the current system at all.

A true free market system would work exactly like car insurance. A person simply goes out and finds a plan they like and pays for it. No employer payments, not government subsidies, and as a result prices would be lower and employers can afford to pay their employees more.


You just described Flip flopping you realize that right?
Not exactly. Flip flopping would be changing your mind to appease the public. Obama is lying about his views outright but has not changed his views at all. He will go along with his original views as soon as he no longer needs the public vote. A flip flopper may actually go along with his new view points once elected.

It is a thin line I know, but there is a difference.


So lets get this straight, when Obama flip flops it's flip flopping, when McCain does it it's an informed decision?

Bias Much?
No. Because there is a huge difference between flip flopping and genuinely changing your views. McCain only changes his views when he is presented with a lot of evidence that shows he was wrong before. Obama simply changes his views based on public opinion.


The fault isn't the Public Schools it's the foundation of the institution, There's virtually no Accountability, Funds are often times wasted (much like our military) Political agendas usually from school boards, and of course No Child Left Behind has probably done the most damage recently.

Public Schooling can work, like I've said before it needs to be implemented correctly and problems need to be addressed rather then sweeping them under the rug.
Exactly right. And the public school system is the exact reason there is no accountability and wasted funds. The government will never, and I do mean NEVER, be able to do something for you, cheaper or better than you can do it yourself. When the government picks up the bill people take it as free reign to spend as much as they like. If the schools were not publicly funded by tax money, there could be no political agendas and there would be plenty of accountability. Also, without public schools, private schools would be much cheaper.

There is no way to implement public schools without the wasteful spending and lack of accountability.



A PRA (Personal Retirement Acount) would likely be the best bet in Social Security reform, it avoids higher taxation which is always good.
We don't need social security reform. We need to just let it die and stop taking money from people who will never be able to draw from it anyway. There are a lot of retirement programs out there that work much better than social security, and are not sitting around in government coffers waiting to be used for other purposes.




That may have worked in the early stages of America however now it wouldn't work, in a free market Corporate fraud is a huge problem, it'll only get worse over time.
What corporate fraud? Sure there is some, but it's not like every large business in the country is out to screw you every chance they get. And what does this have to do with personal responsibility anyway? Simply let people spend their money on what they want. If they are too stupid to save for retirement it is their fault. Forcing everybody else to bail out another person because they didn't take responsibility for their own lives is just wrong.

We are trusted to get our own car insurance, life insurance, food, etc. Why shouldn't we be trusted to send our kids to school or get our own health insurance?


It's still a resource that can be run out, not to mention you still need to use machines that run on oil to actually mine the stuff.
Sure it is a resource that can run out, but not for a very very long time. And with modern technology spent cores can be recharged several times before they need to be disposed of. And did you know that all of those huge mining machines do not run on oil? They run on electricity generated by diesel engines. Suppose we could run that equipment on the energy generated by the nuclear power plants we built? In any event, the amount of oil needed to fuel mining equipment generators is absolutely tiny compared to the amount used to generate electricity for our homes.

But other then that it's clean.
extremely clean.








There's no Liberal Bias in the Media that's just a horrible myth, nothing more, nothing less.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2447 <-- Most Reporters aren't very liberal.
That article just said that most reporters are at least somewhat liberal.

It doesn't really say much to link an article showing the media claiming they don't have a bias.

If I had linked a Rush Limbaugh article saying they media does have a bias, you probably wouldn't think much of it either.

Most people in the US see themselfs as Conservative:
Total Liberal 21
Total Conservative 44

taken from here: http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/client/act_dsp_pdf.cfm?name=mr080505-2topline.pdf&id=3909
Generally most people do see themselves as conservative, but some really aren't. They may be conservative in their daily lives, family values, etc. but politically speaking just under half of them are liberals.
 

blazedaces

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Messages
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Location
philly, PA, aim: blazedaces, msg me and we'll play
When Obama says something horribly stupid (which he often does) the media either do not report it, or go out of their way to lessen the impact. "Oh he is very tired, he's been on the road for 24 hours... He simply misspoke, fumbled his words."

If McCain so much as says 'iran' instead of 'iraq' the media is all over him accusing him of having a senior moment and questioning if he is going senile.

The media is completely in the tank for Obama. They want him to be elected so badly it hurts. They want to be able to go home at the end of the day on Nov 5 and tell their families that they helped get the first black president elected.
Kur, thanks for ignoring my request for evidence. The more you don't provide evidence for these remarks the more you look simply like a dishonest conservative.

-blazed
 

Kur

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
200
I just got done watching the 5:00 news on a local channel.

The story was that before congress could discuss off shore drilling and the energy crisis in general, they adjourned for 5 weeks and they all took off like kids leaving school. The reporter went on to say that republicans and democrats alike avoided the issue in favor of taking a 5 week vacation.

So that was the story I just heard.

The REAL true story is that congress took a vote on whether to adjourn or not and not a single republican voted to do so.

Before the issue of drilling for oil and energy supply came up, speaker of the house (liberal) Nancy Pelosi ORDERED that congress adjourn that moment. Republicans protested but Pelosi ordered all the lights, microphones, and recorders turned off. The democrats (all but one who stayed for a short time) left, while several republicans stayed, in the dark, to protest and discuss the matter.

It is an obvious attempt by Pelosi and other democrats to avoid discussing, and voting, on a bill that would allow off shore oil drilling. According to polls, over 60% of US citizens (even a majority in California) want drilling. Pelosi, being a staunch opposer of any and all drilling within 100 miles of the US, is using her power as house speaker to completely avoid having to vote. It is also no secret that many democrats in swing states (and a few of the more conservative dems) will vote in favor of drilling if for no other reason than to save their political careers. It seems that if Pelosi ever lets the bill come to a vote, it has a higher chance of passing than failing, and Pelosi knows it.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecr...t_the_light_but_GOP_keep_talking.html?showall


As I type this I am watching a different local news report that is reporting a nearly identical story as the other one.



So, if not a liberal bias, why are these 2 different news agencies making it seems as if the republicans are just as guilty as the democrats for avoiding the issue?





And on a slightly related note... Can you believe Obama actually said we should all inflate our tires and get tunes ups to save as much oil as we could drill? The stupidity is astounding. I inflated my tires and got a tune up, but gas prices didn't go down yet, maybe it takes a few weeks?
 

Aesir

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Cts inconsistant antagonist
Kur:

Media bias:
First off I stand corrected McCain has been doing more, let this be a lesson to me that I actually look up a claim before I mark it as fact.

That article just said that most reporters are at least somewhat liberal.

It doesn't really say much to link an article showing the media claiming they don't have a bias.

If I had linked a Rush Limbaugh article saying they media does have a bias, you probably wouldn't think much of it either.
The article says a lot more then that, it shows that Reporters are Centrists not liberal, not conservative in the middle.

on social issues 59% identified themselves as being in the center while 30% were left, and then 9% on the right. Economic issues is a different story however 64% were center, 11% where left, and 19 were right.

Regardless of economic and social issues a majority remained in the center, that doesn't show a liberal bias.

Generally most people do see themselves as conservative, but some really aren't. They may be conservative in their daily lives, family values, etc. but politically speaking just under half of them are liberals.
This is an unfounded claim, unless you have evidence to back it up.

Obamas Political position:
I wish he was liberal.

http://www.progressivepunch.org/mem...arch=selectScore&chamber=Senate&zip=&x=29&y=5

My god, Lieberman is above him the 07-08 list of most liberal senators, I'm going to assume you know who that is. Hardly what I would call the most liberal in this past year at least.

Lets look at life time record shall we?

http://www.progressivepunch.org/members.jsp?search=selectScore&chamber=Senate&scoreSort=lifetime

a bit better but hardly the most liberal. Clinton is above him in both to call him the most liberal would be very misleading.

health care:

Here is a quote from one doctor in the above linked article.

"We've had a virtual recession over the last six years, with more people unable to get insurance and more doctors not getting paid," he states. "There is an overall sense that the system doesn't work, and, worse, there's been no real effort to fix it."

First of all, there is no recession, we are in a (comparatively small) economic slow down. The last 6 years have seen an economy climb through the roof and then slow down to level off. The economy has not gone down one bit, it just is not growing like it was since mid 2002.

Second, if people decide to cancel their insurance to save money, that is their own choice. The US still has a 95% employment rate. Yes, people have lost their jobs, but far more have kept them.

Third, an 'overall sense' about the system is nothing more than a guess. The system does work and has been working. There is no recession and therefor nothing to 'fix'.

This doctor is basically saying "Less people are paying me money so I want the government to force EVERYBODY to have health care whether they want to pay for it or not so I can get more money."
1. The Doctors view on the state of the economy shouldn't really have any merit about his view on single payer, He's simply stating an opinion he deems is correct, considering many believe we're in a recession back in 07 more then half of Americans felt we were going through a recession.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/12/11/poll-over-half-believe-economy-is-in-recession/

this doesn't mean we are it's just a common misunderstanding, the doctor treats the sick and likely has very little idea on how the economy works.

2. Under a Canadian like single payer people wouldn'tneed to cancel their coverage to save a few bucks.

3. If you're speaking about our economy then I generally tend to agree, however if you're speaking of our health care system then there's a disagreement. Our Health care system simply put isn't effective, it's bloated and doesn't work the way it should. It's ranked as the worst in the west, not to mention we have the worst infant mortality rate in the west.

A Free Market Health care system would not drive down costs in fact nothing much would really changed. Leaving Health care in the hands of private organizations is probably the worst thing that could ever happen. You're leaving the health of a nation in the hands of an entity who's sole purpose is to make money, loss of money is seen as a bad thing. When you get sick guess what happens? they lose money. The competitiveness of Capitalism combined with health insurance would simply create a system where only the healthy get coverage and the sick are left to rot.

Except that those public agencies will work directly for the government, like garbage disposal companies. And the money that funds the programs is raised by directly taxing people, forcing people to pay for the health care of other people.
You realize by switching to a single payer in the long run the costs would be far more effeciant then they are now? we waist of 7,000 per capita a year on health care.

these agencies would be owned by the people all the decisions would happen at the state level, honestly they would only be dealing with costs and coverage.



Public Schools:
Exactly right. And the public school system is the exact reason there is no accountability and wasted funds. The government will never, and I do mean NEVER, be able to do something for you, cheaper or better than you can do it yourself. When the government picks up the bill people take it as free reign to spend as much as they like. If the schools were not publicly funded by tax money, there could be no political agendas and there would be plenty of accountability. Also, without public schools, private schools would be much cheaper.

There is no way to implement public schools without the wasteful spending and lack of accountability.
You wanna know how to fix public schools?

1. You fire teachers for being bad at their job.

2. You spend money on the needs of the student, which will focus more on education. Science classes will have the proper equipment you'll have teachers who want to teach not teachers who despite their job because they made a poor career choice

3. You make someone accountable; IE the superintendent or the school board both of whom are the head of the school district. If a school is placing poorly or not doing it's job they should be held accountable.

4. Do away with No Child Left Behind, it does more harm then good and is one of the main problems with public schools today.

The Solution isn't more money, the solution like with all tax money is to use it wisely. We don't need to abolish the system, we need to raise the standards using points I just pointed out. You want a child to succeed and learn? get rid of special education, make the fear of failing and staying behind a reality that's motivation enough. The problem with the school system today is it's to standardized, children aren't standardized they're all different public schools should embrace it, not punish the ones that don't live up to their pseudo-quota.

Social Security: Again it's just an argument of a good thing gone rotten through poor negligence on the governments part. PRA's are likely to be the best way to reform Social Security, letting it die would be a horrible idea.


Corporate fruad:
What corporate fraud? Sure there is some, but it's not like every large business in the country is out to screw you every chance they get. And what does this have to do with personal responsibility anyway? Simply let people spend their money on what they want. If they are too stupid to save for retirement it is their fault. Forcing everybody else to bail out another person because they didn't take responsibility for their own lives is just wrong.

We are trusted to get our own car insurance, life insurance, food, etc. Why shouldn't we be trusted to send our kids to school or get our own health insurance?
1. Corporate fruad is a big problem in this country; they own the media and virtually all outlets, they buy politicians left and right, they screw over insured Americans. ignoring it/ accepting it won't make it go away, Americans were warned about it but no one seemed to care.

2. for the average middle-class upper class American that's no problem, but what about the working class? the poor? the people who put in a honest days work and get basically slavery wages? minimum wage in my state is roughly 8.00 an hour, you're expected to sustain yourself on that? give me a break.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
It's ridiculous how much Kur sounds like the sensational right-winger radio guests in GTA 4. It's like literally word for word.
 

blazedaces

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philly, PA, aim: blazedaces, msg me and we'll play
And on a slightly related note... Can you believe Obama actually said we should all inflate our tires and get tunes ups to save as much oil as we could drill? The stupidity is astounding. I inflated my tires and got a tune up, but gas prices didn't go down yet, maybe it takes a few weeks?
Source? Nope, of course you don't have one, because you're just a dishonest guy...

Inflating your tires and getting a tune up would reduce the amount of gasoline your car needs to use. Less would be wasted as you drive. This isn't all too complicated. He clearly didn't mean gas prices are going down. Stop sounding like a 4-year-old.

-blazed
 

Kur

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Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
200
It's ridiculous how much Kur sounds like the sensational right-winger radio guests in GTA 4. It's like literally word for word.

Hardly. I've heard that guy and nothing I am saying sounds like him. But I suppose to a hard left liberal, any amount of conservatism sounds 'sensational'.

Nothing I am saying is sensational. What I am saying is the principles and policies this country used for almost 200 years to become the super power it is today. What I am saying is the reason the US constitution is the oldest document of its kind still being followed. What I am saying is that policies like social security, public schools, national health care, welfare, food stamps, medicare, etc. all give the government more power and responsibility than the founding fathers ever wanted the government to have. With all these policies you are basically relying on the government to take care of you, educate you, and even feed you. That isn't freedom, it is how you treat a pet.

Freedom is great, but it comes with a price. You have to have personal accountability. If you want freedom, you have to be ready to make choices that will affect your life and you have to be ready to take responsibility if some of those choices are the wrong choices.



blazedaces said:
Source? Nope, of course you don't have one, because you're just a dishonest guy...

Inflating your tires and getting a tune up would reduce the amount of gasoline your car needs to use. Less would be wasted as you drive. This isn't all too complicated. He clearly didn't mean gas prices are going down. Stop sounding like a 4-year-old.

-blazed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzZNP4tTfV0

You seriously think I am just making this up?

He said it.

Of course I know that inflating your tires and getting a tune up will save you a few miles per gallon (assuming you always drive around with flat tires and your engine out of tune..)

And of course he did not say it would reduce the price of oil. So then what was the point? If it doesn't reduce the price of a gallon of gas, why even say it? Who cares if you inflate your tires and go from 20 mpg to 21 mpg? You will still be paying $4 a gallon for gas. There will still be a world wide shortage of oil and the US will still have to pay full price for a barrel of that oil. And because of that shortage, the price of oil will continue to climb higher and higher.

Now, if we drill for oil ourselves, we no longer rely on the world market to buy our oil. There is no longer an oil supply shortage as far as the US is concerned. There will be tens of thousands of new jobs created. The price of a gallon of gas will drop, you can still inflate your tires and get better fuel economy, and if we drill enough, we may even be able to sell some oil to other countries and bring some of their money to us, instead of sending ours to them. Not only that, but if the US increases supply, the world wide price of oil will fall, allowing poorer countries to more easily afford their energy costs.

Conservation is great, don't get me wrong. But conservation will never increase supply. Demand will always increase. China and India are using more and more oil every quarter, the western countries population will continue to grow and need oil for energy and fuel. Inflating your tires will do nothing to reduce the price of a gallon of gas.

And there is no way that keeping your tires inflated will save as much oil as we would be drilling. Most people keep their tires pretty well inflated anyway.

This is simply supply and demand. I don't understand why liberals can not understand it.

And please leave the personal attacks at the door. I have not lied or been dishonest once in any post I've made. Just because my views are different than yours, does not make me dishonest.





That doctors view on the economy strongly influences his reasons for wanting a single party universal health care system.

How can you say "People wouldn't need to cancel their coverage to save a few bucks"? What choice would they have? Of course, they could just not buy that gallon of milk to save a few bucks, or not take that vacation to save a few bucks, or not visit their parents across town to save a few bucks, and why? Because the government is forcing them to spend their money on a health care plan.

Everybody has the right to health care. But nobody is entitled to it. If you want it, go get it. If you can't afford it, you can't afford it.

And how could a free market health care system be "the worst thing that could happen"?

Think about what free market is. If AllState and Statefarm car insurance are competing for your business, what do they do? They certainly do not jack up prices and give sub par quality. No, they lower their prices or throw in free services in an effort to compete in the free market. Over all the consumer gets a better deal, better service, and it keeps the companies honest.

So if it works for car insurance, life insurance, grocery stores, wal-mart, target, auto repair shops, and all other forms of goods and service supply, why oh why, would it not work with health insurance?

Free market has a proven track record. It works. The reason the US' health care system isn't the best in the world is because it is over 50% funded and run by the government and is for some stupid reason, the responsibility of employers to provide to their employees, sometimes for free (nothing is ever free) and sometimes for a reduced rate. In both cases, would it not be better to let the person find their own health coverage and free up the employers money to, oh I don't know, pay the employee. In my own case, if my company did not have to pay health insurance costs, they would be able to pay me an extra $125 a month. With that $125 and the $100 I have to pay, I could by my own health insurance with better coverage and still have over $80 a month that I do not have now.

And please do not keep playing up the Canadian health care system as if it was flawless.

"A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient in need of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three months. It added: "If the person named on this computer-generated letter is deceased, please accept our sincere apologies."

"Americans who flock to Canada for cheap flu shots often come away impressed at the free and first-class medical care available to Canadians, rich or poor. But tell that to hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament. "

"... the average wait for surgical or specialist treatment is nearly 18 weeks, up from 9.3 weeks in 1993..."

"... a patient who was informed by Ontario officials that since Ontario couldn't help him, they would spend $35,000 to send him to the United States for surgery.

Day said his Vancouver clinic could have done it for $12,000 but the Ontario officials "do not philosophically support sending an individual to a nongovernment clinic in Canada."

"Another watershed lawsuit was filed last year against 12 Quebec hospitals on behalf of 10,000 breast-cancer patients in Quebec who had to wait more than eight weeks for radiation therapy during a period dating to October 1997.

One woman went to Turkey for treatment. Another, Johanne Lavoie, was among several sent to the United States. Diagnosed with invasive breast cancer in 1999, she traveled every week with her 5-year-old son to Vermont, a four-hour bus ride. "

"Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation."

"It calculates that at present rates, Ontario will be spending 85 percent of its budget on health care by 2035."

All quoted from this article

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/health/main681801.shtml?cmp=EM8705

A good point to remember is that if there is no universal health care system, there can be no tax to pay for that system, leaving that money in the pockets of the people, enabling them to pay for health insurance if they so choose, or use that money to buy food if they can not afford health insurance. And if a person can not afford health insurance, how could they afford to be forced to pay taxes to pay for the health insurance of not only themselves, but also of the people in their state or country who do not pay taxes, but still utilize the benefits of that health insurance program?



Schools.

Fire teachers for doing a bad job... Ok. But they can't. Why? Because there is a shortage of teachers. You fire one teacher and spend months trying to replace them. And there is good reason for this, it is no secret that public school teachers make a pretty useless wage. And really, who wants to put up with 30+ little brats for 6 hours a day, for less than $35,000 a year?

Spend money on the needs of the student? They do. Or at least they say they do. Not really much accountability remember? You said so yourself.

Make someone accountable? How? If the school is doing poorly, fire the super? Fire the principal? Then what? A new principal comes in and the school continues to do poorly so you fire him to? It takes even more money to enforce this accountability. You need to pay for committees, investigations, and a whole bunch of other things to be able to properly blame somebody for something, and then you have to spend even more to figure out what to change to get it right. All this money is diverted from the funds you wanted spent on the needs of the students.

Yes do away with no child left behind. I could not agree more. It does basically nothing but soak up tax dollars.

And again, I take this back to the free market argument. If all schools were private schools, they would need lower tuition rates and higher results just to stay in business against other schools. Parents would be spending less (no education taxes after all) for a much better education for their children. Teachers would be making more money because they would be working for a company, a company whose agenda is to make profit. They make that profit by have good teachers who are happy working at that school and turn out a high quality product (educated rugrats)


Social security. It is nearly bankrupt. Barrack Obama wants to increase social security tax by something like 8% so it will last another 10 or 15 years. Whatever. It doesn't work and we can't just get rid of it because of the people who completely rely on it. Now, had social security never been implimented, I would have an extra $30 - $50 in my weekly check that I could use to buy food, gas, cable, or put into a retirement account THAT WORKS. Even if a person collects social security, it is not nearly enough to live on and you collect far less that you would had you put the same amount of money into a proper retirement plan. Not only that, you need a separate retirement to live on with social security anyway. Social security is just another failed liberal policy that relies on the government to (attempt to) ease our burdens and take care of us because we are all too stupid to do it ourselves. Just like public education and just like they want to do with national health care. Even your single player health care system can only work for a finite amount of time.

Corporate fraud.

You still haven't shown me how this is some huge problem. Of course there are a few bad apples, but on average I simply have not seen the wide spread corruption the liberals are always going on about.

And who ever said that you HAVE to work for minimum wage? Just because there is a minimum wage (only $6.90 here in Arizona) does not mean you are required to earn only minimum wage. It is entirely possible and likely that you will make more than minimum wage. Actually, I don't even know of a place that pays minimum wage. Even the fast food places out here pay at least $1.50 over minimum.

And don't tell me you can't live on minimum wage. Of course it is extremely difficult and nobody would ever want to, but it can be done. My brother supported 6 people on minimum wage for 4 months while he took the initiative to get training for a better paying job.

Minimum wage jobs are meant for part time employees, kids in high school, people new to the working life, or like my brother, as an emergency source of income while looking for a better job if you lose your job unexpectedly. If you are 45 years old and working for minimum wage then you did something really wrong with your life and you need to take a step back and find a way to change yourself. Even a high school drop out can find a way to make at least $10 an hour.

But I really fail to see why I should have to pay for a person making minimum (or for that matter, nothing) wage, to go to a doctor, or retire, or send their kids to some crappy public school.

I am not rich. I am not even close to middle class. I can't afford a cell phone or an HDTV, or even a car, but I am still forced to use my own money to pay for a retirement plan I don't want, and may never even collect, I am still forced to pay for somebody elses food (food stamps) I am still forced to pay for somebody elses health care (medicare, Acchess) I don't have any kids and I may never have any kids, yet I am forced to pay for everybody elses kids to go to school. I am still forced to pay for somebody elses HDTV, rent, mortgage, car, cell phone, and toilet paper, in the form of the ridiculous amounts of Welfare checks the government hand out on a daily basis. And why? Because nobody wants to take responsibility for their own lives. They want the government to hold their hand and take care of everything for them.

If these few thing were left up to me to handle on my own, I would have better health insurance, better retirement, and more money to spend in my daily life. But the liberals in the government don't trust me to make the right decisions regarding my own life.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Kur said:
Hardly. I've heard that guy and nothing I am saying sounds like him. But I suppose to a hard left liberal, any amount of conservatism sounds 'sensational'.

Nothing I am saying is sensational. What I am saying is the principles and policies this country used for almost 200 years to become the super power it is today. What I am saying is the reason the US constitution is the oldest document of its kind still being followed. What I am saying is that policies like social security, public schools, national health care, welfare, food stamps, medicare, etc. all give the government more power and responsibility than the founding fathers ever wanted the government to have. With all these policies you are basically relying on the government to take care of you, educate you, and even feed you. That isn't freedom, it is how you treat a pet.

Freedom is great, but it comes with a price. You have to have personal accountability. If you want freedom, you have to be ready to make choices that will affect your life and you have to be ready to take responsibility if some of those choices are the wrong choices.
Perhaps you were too busy nodding in total agreement to realize how much you sound alike.

To anyone who has no idea what we're talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84dlvag9TQQ - Go to 4:18. Listen to about 6 minutes in and you can hear all of Kur's arguments in one hilariously satirical sound clip.

GTA Radio said:
That's the problem, let's stop blaming the HMOs because you can't see a doctor, don't blame profits or Nixon because you've got bad coverage. Bottom line, don't blame me because you're a loser. Not my fault buddy! And the last thing we need on earth is socialized medicine, SHEESH. Can you imagine the chaos if everyone was able to see a doctor and didn't have to fill out reams of paperwork before they were denied a life-saving surgery because it cost money? It would be anarchy! There would be lines for bread and we'd all be speaking Russian or Cuban. People would die! You want to live in a socialist utopia, fair enough. Well I don't! I want choices, I want access, I want buzz words, I want dreams, I want the chance to look you in the eye and say, "I've got it, you haven't, I bet you wished you paid more attention in school you little ****! Then knee you in the nuts. And that dream? That dream is America, and I tell you what man, that's a dream hard working people all over this country want. To see their lazy neighbours die because they didn't go to work, get a job, and get health care. Time to remove the teet and say, "dinner's over baby! Go get your own pair of ****!" It's the American dream. That means you, lefty.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDzyer9Mez8&feature=related Part 2.

Your rant about the US Constitution is pretty ridiculous. You sir are begging the question. You act as if that document is flawless. It's not. That's what we're arguing about. Your founding fathers weren't perfect - that's why there were amendments. As modernity begins to permeate every aspect of our culture, the paradigms of how the nation should be run shift.

You're stuck in the past, clearly. How can you call yourself sane? How are you denying your sensationalism? You just listed like 8 programs that are STAPLE to societies these days. I can understand perhaps denying programs that deal with your stance on health care, but then tossing in public education and social security?

You're either one dedicated troll or someone who doesn't go outside much.

As for the rest of your post, I simply can't bother. It's overkill.
 

manhunter098

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Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
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Location
Orlando, Sarasota, Tampa (FL)
Honestly I have to agree with Kur to a degree. Public education may be a "staple" of modern society but that doesnt mean private education wouldnt work much better. The only reason I see the government needing to get itself involved with education would be to make sure the children of poor families can be sent to school. But something like that would cost a fraction of the taxes currently funding the public school system. (Children are somewhat entitled to that, since the government does not provide them with the freedom that it does to adults)

Health Care is pretty much the same, government sponsored health care (even to the extent to which it is already sponsored now) gives free treatment to people who dont contribute to the economy (for whatever reason they are not contributing). It also lowers the amount of money people earn from their paychecks as well. This increases unemployment because people who might have worked if they could earn the extra money that would be taken as part of their taxes will not work. Unemployment further decreases tax revenue and puts more stress on said government sponsored health care system and we enter something of a cycle of rising unemployment and health care taxes. Granted its not actually going to be extreme, but its still not good for the economy or the treasury. Also once again, children have a degree of entitlement here as well, after all they cant pay for their own health care if their parents wont.

To add in though, the free market and the government both possess the same maximum ability to improve the economy, standard of living, reduce unemployment, etc. But due to the competitive nature of the free market it tends to streamline itself. The government however has no competition and thus no motivation to improve except people who more or less want to make it improve, but unlike the free market those same people dont tend have as much invested into their government position as for example a contractor might. The government could hire people specifically to streamline it, but then its paying out more money which will have the opposite effect once everything else is in working order, the free market has no need for such a thing though as it has its own self correcting forces (rather than employees) to perform that role. In addition in order for the government to be as effective as the free market it also needs the total support of the people (not politically but economically), however due the fact that it is trying to provide services to people for free (or rather in exchange for their tax dollars) it doesnt exactly do a great job of motivating people to support it since they will get the service if they pay taxes or not. Furthermore if the government were to discriminate between tax paying and non tax paying persons it will loose potential efficiency.


And I suppose that my source is a knowledge of basic macroeconomics and a bit of reasoning of my own. Feel free to object and explain or supply a source that counters my reasoning if you think its incorrect.


Oh and to add something else. I was pretty sure that the primary reason for the current price of oil was not supply and demand but rather speculation. There is no shortage of oil right now, and just because supplies are limited doesnt mean there is a shortage.
 

Kur

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
200
Perhaps you were too busy nodding in total agreement to realize how much you sound alike.

To anyone who has no idea what we're talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84dlvag9TQQ - Go to 4:18. Listen to about 6 minutes in and you can hear all of Kur's arguments in one hilariously satirical sound clip.
So, why don't you tell me where I said I wanted people to die and that I wanted to be able to say "I have and you haven't"

Not at all. The reason I am against national health care is because they do not work. It takes LONGER to get treated in Canada than in the US.

And since when is not having health care a death sentence? If you get sick, there is not a doctor in the US that will not treat you.

Seriously, grow up. This isn't about some kind of feeling of superiority. This is about doing what is best for the people. Liberals want to pay for the poor to get health care and food stamps and welfare checks, fine, then go sponsor a family. Do it with charities and private funds. Just think about this though, how is somebody making minimum wage going to be able to afford all the taxes that will be taken out for all of these policies? Minimum wage gets even lower when 60% of your check goes to uncle sam.

If you really can't see a difference between what I am saying and what that that satirical radio host is saying, then you just aren't paying attention and you have a severely closed mind.





Your rant about the US Constitution is pretty ridiculous. You sir are begging the question. You act as if that document is flawless. It's not. That's what we're arguing about. Your founding fathers weren't perfect - that's why there were amendments. As modernity begins to permeate every aspect of our culture, the paradigms of how the nation should be run shift.
No. The constitution was pretty flawless. The amendments were never really needed because they do not actually change anything the constitution says. They simply clarify, and add to the constitution for the benefit of those who can not see that those rights and regulations were implied in the first place.

And even if the changing times call for slight changes in the constitution, that does not ever mean that you change the founding principles of the constitution. This country is successful because it is by the people, for the people. The people run this country, the people have the power. Once you start relying on the government to take care of your daily needs, the power is no longer held by the people.

You're stuck in the past, clearly. How can you call yourself sane? How are you denying your sensationalism? You just listed like 8 programs that are STAPLE to societies these days. I can understand perhaps denying programs that deal with your stance on health care, but then tossing in public education and social security?
Yes they are staple to society, but that doesn't mean they are good, or that they even work. We have just become accustomed to them and most people never give it a second thought. Not until the program breaks down, as socialized programs always do. I believe you are the one living in the past. Back when social security had the funds to cover everybody, back when public school actually worked. But the major flaw with these kinds of programs is that they can not sustain themselves when the population increases, or with inflation. Social security will not be there when you and I are old enough to retire. It may not even be there for our parents. Not without a huge tax increase to pay for it. Public schools are loosing ground every year. Lack of funds, bad teachers, ignorant policies, wasteful spending, etc. The only way to fix public schools is, again, higher taxes.

Just because these things are staple to our society does not mean they are helping. We are a nation addicted to these programs like a crack head addicted to crack. We need to ween ourselves off these policies so we can go about getting it right.

You're either one dedicated troll or someone who doesn't go outside much.
Again with the personal attacks. My views being different from yours is no reason to insult me. This is a debate, not a fight.

As for the rest of your post, I simply can't bother. It's overkill.
How very safe of you.



manhunter098 said:
Oh and to add something else. I was pretty sure that the primary reason for the current price of oil was not supply and demand but rather speculation. There is no shortage of oil right now, and just because supplies are limited doesnt mean there is a shortage.
That is not true at all. Without the speculators we could not have a free market. There is a shortage of oil.

http://www.resourceinvestor.com/pebble.asp?relid=12128

That graph shows oil supply vs. demand back in 2005. As you can see there was already more demand than supply back then. the production of oil has not increased since, but growing nations like China and India are consuming far more oil every quarter while established industrial nations like the US and most of Europe continue to need more supply as well.

Last I heard about a month ago, the worlds oil consumption exceeded the worlds oil supply by 1 million barrels per day.

The price of oil is set on a world free market by investors, just like the stock market. If the investors look to the future and see that there is no prospect of more oil supply, they can by the oil at higher prices, knowing that the price will continue to go up in the future, where they can sell it for a profit, or simply lock in the current price for whatever firm they are representing. For example, an airline may use a speculator to see that the price of oil is going to go up for the next year, so they buy a futures contract, for a year lets say, at today's lower prices and the airline pays that price for oil over the next year, whether the price goes up or down. This can either save billions or cost billions with larger companies and countries, so it is always in the speculators best interest to do their job correctly and never 'gouge' the price of oil. Honestly, what benefit would their be to intentionally raising the price of oil?

If they look the future and see something like, oh I don't know, the President of the United States lifting the executive ban on off shore drilling, then they are much less inclined to buy oil at higher prices, and the price of a barrel falls (by almost $30 actually) and that is why, for now anyway, the price of gas has gone down recently.

I think a good analogy for this is the Wii. To this day I can not go into a local video game store and find a Wii sitting on a shelf. If I really want a Wii I may have to go to Ebay and spend more money to get it. This is supply and demand. There is more demand than supply and as a result, I have to pay more to get a Wii. Now imagine of nintendo announced it was going to ship 5million Wii's across the US. Would you still get on Ebay and buy one for $300 or $400 or would you wait a week and buy it at the store for $250? You may even go to the game store a reserve one to be sure you only have to pay $250. That is speculating. That is all the speculators do. They look at the market in the future to determine how much their firm is willing to pay now. It makes no sense at all to increase the price artificially.

These investors are the speculators that the liberals and the media are clamoring after. Instead of trying to resolve the issue driving the price of oil up (higher demand than supply) they want to put blame on somebody and punish them for it.

It seems they can not make up their mind on who to blame though, oil companies (who can not affect the price of oil at all) or speculators (the people who are doing their best to make sure we don't pay too much at any given time)

For years, congress has pulled the oil companies in for a hearing on price gouging, price fixing, and various other things, and every single time, they find nothing and the oil companies go on their way. A few years later and congress brings them back in again. Finally this past year, congress was humiliated by one oil CEO who told them it was their own fault the America was paying so much for oil. One liberal senator went so far as to threaten to 'socialize the oil industry' of course she later clarified she wanted to 'nationalize' it (who can tell the difference?) much like Hugo Chavez did in Venezuela.

So now congress, licking their wounds, decided to try to blame somebody else and went after the 'speculators' who are actually the investors the US uses to be sure we do not pay more than fair market price for oil.

Now, the congress has a ban on off shore drilling still in place. So we still can not drill. But even the act of the president making it known we want to drill, by dropping the executive ban, was enough to drop the price of oil by $27 dollars a barrel. Imagine how much the price would drop if the US announced it was actually going to drill.

The US, has more oil than Iraq, Iran, and even Saudi Arabia, in Alaska, the Rockies, off both coasts, and under places like Montana, in the form of oil shale.

Not only would drilling reduce the global price of oil by a huge margin, but the US could supply the vast majority of its own oil, dropping the price of a gallon of gas dramatically.

And if we drill enough (which would not be a problem) we could even sell our oil to other countries and bring much more money into our economy and also help pay off that national debt of ours.

We could have some of that oil on the market in as little as 2 years. Some will take longer, up to 10 years. But it doesn't matter, the minute we announce we are going to drill, the prices will drop dramatically.

It is also worth mentioning how many jobs would be created. And for those of you who are worried about the environment, imagine how much less pollution would be generated by modern equipment, both at the drilling site, and in the form of new refineries.

The environmentalists have not allowed a new oil refinery to be built in more than 30 years. It is absolutely ridiculous. Modern technologies would be much safer, cleaner, and far more efficient.
 
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