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"Best of" or "First to"

Tomber

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
243
Location
Denmark
So, I got this thought.

When playing a set in a tournament the rules typically say sets should be Best of 3/5/7, but in practice the set ends as soon as one of the players has won 2/3/4 games. Let’s say a player wins 3 to 0 games in a Best of 5 set. The winner of the set has been determined, but what about the remaining games? Does the winner forfeit from the these games because he doesn’t have to win more matches, meaning the final score becomes 3-2, or does the losing player just agree on the idea that the winning players would have won the last 2 games, making the score 5-0? The final score can’t really be 3-0 in a Best of 5 set, right?

Now, let's say these 3 games were really close and the losing player thinks he should have been able to win some of them. He feels that he could win the following games if they played again. If this player wants to play the remaining games of the set for whatever reason, then shouldn’t he be allowed to? Then, if the winner of the set refuses, the final score would become 3-2.

Imagine this scenario: A Fox and a Peach player meet in bracket. The Peach is a new and upcoming player who isn't used to play in a tournament setting. The Fox is a routinized tournament player but isn't used to the Peach match up. The Fox wins 3-0 and sends the Fox to losers bracket in 3 really close games. The Peach didn't play as good as he had hoped due to nerves, and the Fox got catch off guard by Peach's weird stuff. The Peach would like to play more matches to get rid of his nerves before playing his next match in losers. The Fox sees that he is about to face another Peach in winners and would like to play the match up a little more before playing his next match. They decide to play the last two games of the set. The final score becomes 3-2 and both players are ready for their following matches in bracket. You could argue that "they can just play some friendlies after the set if they want", but I find that people are not allowed to play friendlies during tournament.

Another, more likely, scenario: Two players are facing off in GFs. The guy coming from losers wins the first set 3-0. The guy coming from winners isn't sure about how he should turn the tides in his favor. He wants to try out a secondary and asks if them could play the remaining games of the first set before moving on to the last. If both players agree, they can do it (even if the TO disagrees IMO if it's really a Bo5 and not first to 3). If one player disagrees, the score becomes 3-2 (or 5-0) and they move on to the last set.

The main reason why this matters to me is because I’m trying to get better at this game. I focus more getting better than I focus on results. I don't get to play top level players that often, and when I meet them in bracket, the set is often nearly over before I start to figure out what I should do be to win. If I was given the opportunity, I'd rather play and lose 5-0 than 3-0 if that makes me better in the long run. And I'd rather lose 3-2 than 3-0 just for the heck of it.

Obviously, it's going to take longer to play a set this way, but if it really is a Best of 5 (or Best of 3/7) and not first to 2/3/4, shouldn't the players be able to play all 5 games if it says "Bo5" in the rules and both players agree on doing it?


TL;DR:
If a set really is Best of 5 games, would a "3-0" be "3-2" or "5-0"?
And if both players agree on playing the remaining games after the winner of the set has been decided, shouldn't they to allowed to? Or is "Best of 5" just another way of saying "First to 3 wins".

So, yeah, just a thought. It's not going to change much, but I'm curious.
 

Warhawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
1,086
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Mt. Pleasant/Highland, MI
If both players agree I don't think it should be a problem since the tournament schedule should be prepared like every set will go to 5 games just in case imo.
 

Zoler

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
991
Location
Sweden
Of course it's just another way of saying first to three wins. Tomber stupid! =D

Only read the TL;DR first lol. If you want to learn more and play more serious games you should probably just ask for moneymatches or something. Most people will MM you even for 5kr or something lol.
 

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
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Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,287
Location
The Netherlands
You could argue that "they can just play some friendlies after the set if they want", but I find that people are not allowed to play friendlies during tournament.
They should just do what literally everyone does and lie about still playing their tournament matches.
 

Juggleguy

Smash Grimer
Premium
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Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,354
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Ann Arbor, MI
It's just a matter of how picky you want to be with wording. I don't think we have it wrong, though. If you look at all the pro sports, they also go with the "best of __" wording (in most cases, best of 7) and their series always end when someone reaches four wins.
 

Tomber

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
243
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Denmark
The result of the set is the same in both cases, yes, but you get to play more "quality" matches by playing all 5 matches instead of stopping when once one reaches 3 wins.

But yeah, you probably right that the two ("best of" and "first to") are pretty much the same in most likely every case. I just wondered if there was a reason for everyone saying "Best of" and not "First to" when you could argue that these two are not the same. I guess not.
 

Construct

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
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465
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NEOH
Are you a non-native English speaker? Best of five refers to whomever gets the "best" of five, or the majority. That is to say, the first to 3 will win a best of 5, because 3 wins is 60% of 5... the majority. Best of 3 means first to 2 for the same reason.

In reference to the rest of the post just play friendlies or MMs
and do what Jim said
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
2,599
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Well Denmark...so maybe Best of isn't a prevalent term but that's besides the point. I don't like the idea of playing a match you can't win since it's friendlies and time consuming. For getting more quality matches I vote Bo5 become bracket standard.
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
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Jul 10, 2006
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Århus, Denmark
^FYI "best of" is also a very commonly used term in Denmark. Tomber is just being silly, it makes perfect sense to call it that.

Also: I don't think you can really expect as much of a quality match once both players already know the outcome of the set anyway. It will likely be the same as playing a friendly anyway (which is the same for most people anyway, but yeah). I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to be able to force the top player to play more with you this way, but really... lol :p
 

X17the17th

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
49
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France
If I won a set 3-0 I won 100% of the 3 matchs played, not 60% of the 5 matches played (the remaining 2 matches haven't been played).

"Bo N = Ft (N+1)/2" only applies to matchs needed to win, but in terms of total matchs played they can be two different things. So Tomber is technically right.
 

Tomber

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 12, 2006
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Denmark
Mentally it does matter how much you lose by.

Also, what about pool sets or bracket matches with extended sets? A 2-0 is a potential 2-1, which in these situations would matter.

@KrIsP: He probably would like to, if he had just barely won against a ICs main and where about to play Fly/Wobbles.

My point is that "Bo5" is not the same as "First to 3" in a few situations. Why would you call it "best of" when you're playing "first to".

Yeah, I'm just being silly btw, but still.
 

X17the17th

Smash Cadet
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Best of N means N matchs are played, and only then the guy who won the most is declared the winner. That is not what we are doing currently, is it.
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
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Best of 5 means that 5 matches is the most that can be played and nothing else. You are simply looking at it incorrectly if you assume that the objective is to find out what the bo5 exactly is. Yeah you can go ahead and play the remaining distributed matches/look at the remaining data, it is just unnecesarry and ineffective.

3+ is best of 5. This is the result we need to find (who has the best of 5) and i'm not wrong to say that this number is indeed best of 5. Get outta here.

I guess this is why some people like to say best 3 of 5, even though that makes even less sense to me, lol.

(this is stupid)
 

Chroma

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 16, 2011
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161
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Philadelphia
As someone who's still to play his first tournament, I'd like it if this idea were encouraged. My opinion is biased, but as I want to get better, I can't see a drawback from a culture that promotes more games played in a tournament setting.
 

X17the17th

Smash Cadet
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Apr 13, 2008
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France
Yes it is stupid, there's no questionning that. But hey, this is the Internet ater all.

"Best of N matchs" implies the existence of the N matchs, therefore the fact that they have ben played.

For instance, I would rather play a best of 5 than a first to 3 against, say, Armada, because I know he always plays seriously, and I could most certainly benefit from playing 2 more serious matchs against him.

But whatever, the fact that we use the terms "Best of N" won't prevent me from sleeping at night. That's not important.
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
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Århus, Denmark
It doesn't imply ****. You assume it. Best of 5 is 3 or more. 3 (or more) is the objective. 3 or more is the same as first to 3. (edit: No, first to 3 doesn't neccesarily specificy that you have to hit exactly 3 either, if you want to really drag this **** far).

Sometimes the things we say don't really make sense if you think about it. But this is not one of these cases IMO.

Alright, i'm also done.

Edit: Or we could compromise and call it first to best of 5, if that makes you happy, lol.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Why would the player up 3-0 ever agree to give their opponent extra games to adapt to their strategy, which is so obviously working?
 

Tomber

Smash Journeyman
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To improve as a player. If you learn to fight whatever your opponent throws at you, it will benefit you in the long run.

However, if you're only focusing on results and winning right now, then no, it would not make any sense.
 

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
first to 2 = best of 3
first to 3 = best of 5
first to 5 = best of 7

/thread
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Jarrettsville, MD
To improve as a player. If you learn to fight whatever your opponent throws at you, it will benefit you in the long run.

However, if you're only focusing on results and winning right now, then no, it would not make any sense.
You could just play friendlies or MM after the tournament... There's no reason to be doing that **** in GFs at a national or anything.
 

Tomber

Smash Journeyman
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You could just play friendlies or MM after the tournament... There's no reason to be doing that **** in GFs at a national or anything.
Well, if you happen to be in the GFs of a national, I'm pretty sure you'd just focus on winning and not so much on future matches, haha. However, at locals or small smash events where the focus mainly is on improving I think it could work, maybe even in GFs. At these smaller events, playing a friendly/MM just isn't the same as playing a tournament match IMO.

Also, I think "forcing" players to play even after they have won a tournament set is a decent way for newer players to play more with good players. I can still remember the first tournament I went to outside my own country. I didn't know anyone and didn't speak english that well, so even though I really wanted to play some "quality" games, it took quite some time before I got to play. I really looked forward to the tournament matches as I knew I'd get to play the local people at his point. Now, this is many years ago, and today I have no problems asking people you are better than me to MM or play friendlies (even though my english still is horrible, hah) but there might still be newer players who feel the same way as I used to. Dunno.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
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Jan 8, 2010
Messages
3,214
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Uppsala, Sweden
first to 2 = best of 3
first to 3 = best of 5
first to 5 = best of 7

/thread
This.

X17, the definition of "best of" is not up for debate.

Tomber, just ask for friendlies after the set is over. You're not going to get the same "quality" matches either way if the actual outcome (who wins/loses) is already set in stone.
 

Tomber

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I actually thought the definition of "best of" was like X17 put it. "Best of N means N matchs are played, and only then the guy who won the most is declared the winner" seems logical to me. Oh well, the more you know.

I don't want to repeat myself, but I still think "best of" (X17's definition) is better than "first to" in tournaments where the players are focusing on improving more than winning. The only drawback is that it takes longer time.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
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You can disagree with it if you want. It's still wrong (not saying you're being completely illogical or something. It's just the way it is).

Watch a tennis match (or any other racket sport) if you don't believe me.
 

MountainGoat

Smash Journeyman
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Oct 9, 2012
Messages
247
If a player 3-0's someone they shouldn't have to play two useless matches. They're not gonna care at all since they won anyway. Bo5 just means first to three.
 

X17the17th

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France
For the record, I did agree that "Bo N = Ft (N+1)/2" (or "Ft N = Bo (2N-1)") in terms of matchs needed to win. I just thought Tomber had a point. But whatever, let's agree to disagree.
 

Mahone

Smash Champion
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Apr 19, 2010
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Blacksburg, VA
I was gonna just say that its implied that you are just forfeiting the rest of the matches...

but then i realized that can't be true because of how they break ties in pools and other round robin situations

i like first to 2, etc. more, that seems more precise
 
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