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Behind Wobbling: All the stuff you don't see

Discussion in 'Ice Climbers' started by Tomber, Aug 16, 2013.

  1. Tomber

    Tomber
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    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Denmark
    There has been a lot of focus on wobbling lately because of Wobbles performance at Evo, so I thought it was a good time to write and post this thing. If you don’t know what wobbling is then go read Wobbles’ thread about the infinite.

    Introduction

    This is a guide about wobbling: How it works, how to use it effectively, and what to do against it. I’m mainly writing this because I’ve recently seen so many ICs not getting kills off grabs when they should. People know about the infinite and know the basics about how it works, but when it comes it using it to win in actually matches then there’s a lot of room for improving. In this guide, I'll share my thoughts about the infinite and try to give some advice about how to use it properly.

    My name is Frederik Bruun, I’m a 21-year-old guy studying psychology in Denmark.
    When it comes to smash I’m known as one of Europe’s best Ice Climbers mains, infamous for being able to convert any grab into an infinite at any % quite consistently. I’m a decent player, but wobbling is where I really shine, whether I like it or not.

    Table of Contents


    I. How to do the infinite properly
    II. How hard is wobbling?
    III. The Psychology behind wobbling
    IV. Stuff that leads into grabs
    V. Lag-less set ups
    VI. Should wobbling be banned?

    ________________________________________


    How to do the infinite properly

    Now, if you've read some of my posts in the general Ice Climbers chat thread, you might have seen me talk about a so-called “no lag grab” that makes is possible to get wobbling to work even at 0%. While it’s true I have some true lag less grab desyncs that I sometimes use to get my infinites going (I’ll get into this later in the guide), those are not the only reasons for my success with getting wobbles at low %.

    You should be able to get a 0% to KO off pretty much any grab as long as Nana is in place. Even normal synced grabs where both Climbers try to grab. It seems like a common misconception that you shouldn’t go for infinites before your opponent is around 40 or more %, which simply isn’t true. You can get a wobble at any % if you’re fast enough and know what you’re doing.

    Read this post by Magus: [collapse] Magus420; said:
    As a somewhat proficient masher myself I was interested in finding out more about escaping. Here's some stuff:

    When hit by an attack that does less than 6.00% you go into CaptureDamage which is 20 frames long + added frames from hitlag. You can only break if you are able to finish CaptureDamage and go into CaptureWait. Fresh headbutt and f-tilt (on someone in a grab) add 3 frames of hitlag while d-tilt adds 2. When staled the headbutt and tilt may add 1 less frame of hitlag depending on how stale it is.

    If you headbutt immediately after landing the grab they have 12 frames for inputs to mash out before the headbutt hits/CaptureDamage starts. Any inputs after those 12 won't matter unless they leave CaptureDamage.

    To maintain the CaptureDamage lock after an immediate headbutt, Nana's tilt needs to hit on the 36th frame or earlier within the grab hold. To do that you can input an f-tilt on 25 or earlier if within close range, otherwise frame 24 or sooner if full range is needed to reach (it hits up close before the hammer extends). D-tilt needs to be input on 23 or earlier since it's slightly slower.

    Nana's standing grab lag normally prevents inputting the tilt until frame 23, so with an immediate headbutt the f-tilt can be input on 23-25 and d-tilt can only be done on 23. If the headbutt is delayed 1 frame they have 13 frames for escape inputs, f-tilt can be input 23-26, and d-tilt 23-24. If delayed 2 frames they have 14 to escape, f-tilt 23-27, d-tilt 23-25, etc. On that note, to me it seems like f-tilt wobble is superior to d-tilt in almost every way. More damage (fewer reps), more hitlag (locks longer so more room for error), comes out faster (easier to get started faster from grab), and IASA is 1 frame sooner (closer to grab attack's duration). D-tilt has slightly more horizontal range though.

    With absolute frame perfect mashing, an immediate headbutt (12 frames to mash out) into wobble is escapable until they get to 61%+. To put that ridiculous mashing speed into perspective, it's not possible to get even 2 grab attacks in until they are 251%+ (they break out before the 2nd one hits).

    Now against actual humans, I'd estimate that an immediate headbutt into wobble shouldn't be mashable starting around 25%+ with the very very best players at mashing and them also having enough forewarning that they are going to get grabbed so that they are already at "top speed" as the grab connects. Against normal people it would probably be more like 15%+ with full warning. If they didn't expect to get grabbed at the time or realize it a bit late and start mashing after the grab connects it would most likely work on anyone at or close to 0%+.
    [/collapse]
    To me it seems like pretty much every IC player is making one big mistake when it comes to wobbling. People are hesitating. The IC player will get a grab and then wait a bit doing nothing before starting the wobbling. This is bad because it gives your opponent an opportunity to mash out of the grab before you get to do anything, an opportunity that he or she wouldn’t have gotten otherwise. In Wobbles’ guide it even says “3) Hit A to have Popo headbutt; Nana will jab.“ and “An important note; you must wait for Nana's grab animation to end before headbutting with Popo and starting the infinite. If you don't, her tilts won't evenly alternate and you won't get an infinite.” This isn’t true and I’m pretty sure Wobbles knows this by know. Nana shouldn’t jab. She should do a tilt.

    You should always start your wobbling as soon as possible if you get a grab and Nana is in position: Headbutt as soon as possible when you get a grab with Popo and then make Nana do a tilt as soon she’s able to and continue as you normally would with wobbling.

    Video example: EVO 2013 SSBM QF - Wobbles (Ice Climbers) vs Mango (Fox)

    Look at Wobbles’ grabs. Notice how he always waits a little before he goes for the wobbling. Around 01:18 Mango even manages to mash out of a grab because Wobbles waited too long.

    Now take a look at first match in this set. It’s old, but still relevant. Focus on the grabs.

    See how I do the wobbling immediately after I get a grab? I’ve tested it out a couple of times with some of the best European smashers to see how hard it is to get out of. The testing goes like this: I’ll stand very next to the other player while he’s at 0%. At some point I’ll grab him and start the wobbling as fast as I can while he will try to mash out as soon he reacts to the grab. And guess what, I’ll still get the infinite to work. To avoid being caught in the infinite, you’ll have to mash out before Popo’s first headbutt connects. If you don’t get away before that, then it should be a stock unless the IC player messes up.

    An important thing to remember when talking about mashing out of grabs is that only you know when the grab is coming; you don’t have to react to the grab like the other player. Your opponent can be the best masher of all time, but still get wobbled at around 0% because he didn’t start his mashing in time. This is a huge deal and the main reason why it’s important you don’t hesitate when you get a grab as an ICs player. Set up your wobbling and do it fast. Yes, on paper it’s possible to mash out in time, but you’re playing against humans, not computers. People have to react to the grab before they can start their mashing (unless they predict they will get grabbed) and by then, it’s most likely too late.

    The proper Wobbling set up goes like this (synced grabs):

    1) Grab and press A (or Z) immediately afterwards to make Popo do a headbutt as soon as possible. This won’t affect Nana as she's still in her grab whiff animation.

    2) While Nana is in her grabbing animation, tilt the joystick slightly forward* and tap A as soon as her grab animation ends to do a f-tilt. This is the tricky part, as you want to have the joystick positioned just between neutral position and far right/left. If you move it too far to one side, you’ll most likely do a f-smash with Nana. If you don’t move it far enough you’ll make her jab. The speed of which you move the joystick matters too. If you move it too fast, Nana might go crazy and do a dash-attack or something like that.

    3) Once you’ve done one f-tilt correctly you can move the joystick to the far right/left and rest it there (make sure both Popo and Nana are in some kind of lag animation so that the input don’t affect them). Then you can do your wobbling as you are used to (press A at 180-220 BPM). Always finish with d-smash unless there’s something like a mountain on stage they can tech on. D-smash while holding is by far the safest way to finish a stock. Make sure the D-smash will KO.

    *F-tilt is always superior to d-tilt unless you’re
    - Standing very close to an edge
    - Trying to time out your opponent. It takes more time to get to 300% using d-tilt than using f-tilt
    - Playing on Dream Land while you’re not facing the tree. The wind can screw you over if you’re using f-tilt near an edge

    Sometimes I shift between f-tilt and d-tilt when I’m wobbling. It looks cool and it’s a good thing to be able to do. I often find myself in a situation where I’m wobbling someone using f-tilt on Dream Land when suddenly the wind blows me to the edge. In situations like this I do a few f-tilt and then shift to d-tilt midway in the wobbling before I reach the end of the stage/platform I’m standing on.

    One last important thing when talking about fast wobbling set ups is that it isn’t possible to get the infinite right away if you get the grab while running. The running grab whiff animation is longer than the animation of a normal stand grab and therefore Nana will not be able do a f-tilt fast enough. Also, when missing the grab, Nana will slide too far ahead of Popo so that her f-tilt will not hit the other player. To get around this you have to either wait a little to get Nana back in position or press shield just before hitting the grab as the shield will cancel the running animation. Another solution to this is doing a “lag-less” grab desync which allows Popo to do a grab without Nana having to. This way you’ll not have to wait for Nana’s whiffing animation to end because she never did a grab (more on this later in the guide).

    That’s it. Try it. Once you get the idea, practice it. It’s much more useful than then old set up that’s listed in Wobbles guide. It’s also harder to do, though.

    How hard is wobbling?

    People often talk about how easy wobbling is. They pick up Ice Climbers in a friendly, get a grab and go something like “See, even I can do it and I don’t even play ICs”. This is a silly misconception, but also true in some ways. Yes, it’s true that wobbling isn’t hard compared to a lot of the other stuff in this game. It's actually hard to compare it to anything else in the game because there isn’t really anything like it. Wobbling is about keeping a beat, something that’s incredible easy to do for some people and near impossible for others. I’m a musician myself, and keeping a beat comes to me naturally, but I’ve met many people who can’t do the same no matter how hard they try. The same applies for smashers. Chu Dat once said that one of the main reasons why he doesn’t wobble is because he thinks it is too hard. Fly Amanita too has mentioned that he doesn’t think it’s that easy to do. Even Wobbles once came to me and straight up said, “I’m bad at wobbling”. It’s something everyone can practice and get better at though, but some might never get “good” at it.

    However, doing the infinite and getting a chance to do the infinite are two very different things. Especially when going for these low % set-ups and tournament nerves come into play. To do a perfect wobbling set up, you have to be very precise with your inputs to make sure your opponent can’t get away. It’s kind of like shield dropping. It tricky at first, but once you get the feeling for it, it isn’t that hard to do (though it’s still easy to mess up it in the heat of the battle). However, unlike when you mess up a shield drop, messing up your wobbling set means your opponent gets to keep their stock. Which is bad. That’s one of the reasons why it’s always a huge deal when you make a mistake when you’re playing ICs. Shaky hands can make you lose the game. The same goes for the player playing against the ICs, but more about that later.

    Wobbling is “easy”, but can be hard to get good at. Practice makes perfect, but I still see ICs players messing up their opportunities of taking their opponents’ stock after they get a grab, which makes me sad. I’ve practiced wobbling a lot myself to make sure that I’m able to get the infinite started even in the most chaotic situations (more about that in the “Set-up” part of the guide”). I’m good at wobbling and fast set-ups and everyone who has played me agrees, but even I still find myself in situations thinking, “Damn, I could have gotten a wobble right there”.

    The Psychology behind wobbling

    One of the main complaints about wobbling is that it stops all interaction between the characters on the screen. Unlike chaingrabs and combos where you can DI most of the time to give yourself a better position, wobbling shuts down the other character completely, giving it no opportunity to move at all. However, a lot of stuff is still happening.

    What I do while I’m wobbling someone:

    - I’ll notice how the other player reacts to the situation: Is he frustrated, mashing his controller as much as he can? Is he calm and focused on his DI because he knows that mashing buttons won't make a difference? Is he smiling, singing, clapping or tapping his controller out of time with the rhythm to make it harder for me to keep the beat? Or is he that guy that will sit completely still and then all of a sudden jump up and look right into your eyes (shout outs to Darrell)? Also, if I’m playing against a fast faller I’ll see if he presses L/R in his mashing, because if he does that, I know I can back-/down-throw him knowing that he will not be able to tech the ground.
    - I’ll collect my thoughts: What have I been doing that worked out in the match so far? What should I be doing different? If he has the momentum I’ll hold him for at few more % to make him lose it so that we are back to even ground. And if I’m the one with the momentum I’ll just KO him ASAP and keep going.

    What you should do if someone is wobbling you:

    - Mash as fast as you can. Then stop and focus on DI’ing. You can’t get out by mashing at this point. It’s a waste of time and energy to try. If you get out of the grab anyway then it’s because the ICs player messed up. Also, some ICs players like to finish their wobbling with down-throw to up-/forward-smash. If this is the case then you should DI away on the down-throw as this will make it harder for the IC player to hit with the smash.*
    - Don’t let wobbling frustrate you. This is really important. Some players play remarkably worse after getting wobbled while others don’t mind it all the much. Try to be calm and think about why you got grabbed and what you can do to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

    * Some characters are actually really hard to hit with smashes off a down throw, most notable of the high tiers being Puff. In Hbox and Wobbles’ match at Evo, Wobbles would finish off most wobble with down-throw to up-smash. If Hbox had DI’ed one of those throws away then the smash might have missed which would have been huge.

    Video example: EVO 2013 SSBM Pools - Scar (Falcon) vs Tomber (Ice Climbers)

    Here is a really good example of why these things are important to remember. Watch the 3rd match of this set. Scar is up 4 stocks to 1 and is looking really strong. Then I get a KO (he’s at high %) and land a grab that I convert into wobbling at 0% on his fresh stock. Earlier in the set I noticed that Scar gets upset when he is getting wobbled, so I wobbled him over 200% even though 150% should be enough. Now I have the momentum, and on his third stock Scar plays a little shaky. I punish three big mistakes on his part and get a 3rd grab. This time I wobble him to over 220%. It’s now 1 stock to 1 and Scar has lost all momentum. He’s choking and I take the last stock without too much trouble.

    Now, most people will probably say that this is a really lame play, and they’re probably right (I actually felt a little sorry for Scar after the match), but stuff like this is part of the game. Besides, you’re already playing one of the “lamest” and most hated characters in the game, so if you want to be the people’s champ you may as well just pick another character. ICs is a character that’s viable because of their punish game. Doing a small mistake or a tech error against ICs will cost you your stocks. Consistency is all when it comes to playing against the Ice Climbers, so you have to keep your mind clear if you don’t want to lose. However, as mentioned earlier, it goes both ways. If I got mad every time something stupid happened to Nana, then I wouldn’t be able to play this character.

    Wobbling stops everything on screen, but the mental battle continues between the players while it’s happening. I find it interesting how people react to the stuff I throw at them (I’m a psychology student after all). That’s one of the reasons why I play this character.


    Stuff that leads into grabs

    And now, on to the set-ups. Most of the following will be intuitive and obvious to most people who have ever played the character. However, with that said I’m quite sure you might find a gem or two in the dirt if you read through the whole thing. I will not write anything about stuff that works on every character (like hand off -> wobbling) but focus on the set ups I think are the most effective ones against each on the top/high tier characters, excluding Ice Climbers. This isn't really a MU guide, but if you would like to hear my thoughts about a specific match up then feel free to ask me in this thread.

    Anyway, here are some of the moves I use to get my wobbles up and running:

    Fox/Falco:

    Pretty much everything works on the spacies. Dash-attach, Up-smash, U-tilt, and SH Uair can all lead into grabs if not DI’ed away. Down-/back-throw to tech chase/jab reset as well as Up-throw -> dash-attack are some decent choices when Nana isn’t in position and can give her the time she needs to get to you. WD in jab -> grab can catch players off guard and the same applies for ice block and blizzard desyncs. Don’t go for shield grabs all the time, as you’ll most likely eat a shine unless your opponent’s tech game is off. If you manage to get a grab, but don’t feel the timing is right (e.g. if you got the grab while running), then down-throw -> dair -> regrab is a great way to reset the grab and get your wobbling going. Always wobble right away when you get the regrab. Nana shouldn’t do a jab first if you get a synced grab.

    Falcon/Ganon:

    Most of the stuff and works against Fox and Falco works against Falcon and Ganon too. However, you get a few extra tools to play with. The normal d-throw-dair chain is easy for Falcon and Ganon to DI out of if the player know what they’re doing. Because of this fact most ICs will go for the reverse version of this chain grab and keep doing it until the opponent is at killing % or high enough % to get a wobbling going. This is risky, because it gives the other player quite a few tries to get out of the chain grab. To ensure the KO do this.

    Here is how it’s done: Grab -> d-throw -> full jump behind Falcon with Nana and dair -> press Z to get the regrab -> press Z again to do a headbutt and L-cancel the dair. Then f-tilt. It’s pretty much just a normal reverse chain where you L-cancel the dair, but it's really powerful, works at any %, and the double Z trick makes it easy to perform once you get the feeling for it. Try it out. I won against Scar thanks to it. It's pretty good.

    Another powerful trick I like is cancelling Falcon’s side-b with your u-tilt to get a grab. The two moves will cancel each other out and Falcon will be in grab range. As you can’t shield grab Falcon’s side-b without shield DI’ing, this is a great tool to beat Falcons who like to side-b a lot against ICs. Bait it out, react, and be ready to grab.

    In this case the u-tilt covers both SH nair/fair/dair approach and side-b. I think Wobbles was looking for an aerial approach, but it worked out of him anyway. Good ****. U-tilt also cancels out stuff like Peach’s and Samus’ dash-attacks, but here you should just do a shield grab anyway.

    Peach:

    One of the two main reasons why this is ICs' worst MU by far is because she is nearly impossible to grab while she is floating (the other being her ability to kill Nana fast at low risk). Ice blocks and Blizzard don't really work against Peach because she can easily float over and punish you. Ice blocks can be used to hit her in the air if you use platforms, but this doesn't really lead into anything big. Against a floating Peach you have to out space her with Bair, Uair, and Up-smash to build up damage. The problem with this strategy, however, is that you have to win so many spacing wars in order to just take a single stock while Peach only has to win one to knock out Nana off a well spaced fair.

    However, sometimes Peach decides fight you on the ground. In these cases you should always got for grabs as it's “easy” to kill her off one. Down-throw -> dair -> regrab works well on Peach and she's easy to hand off. Here I get some grabs against Armada, which I convert into wobbling: Example 1, example 2, example 3

    Marth/Samus:

    Besides ice blocks and blizzard desyncs not a lot of stuff works on these two. Something I like to do is approach with shield and then punish whatever they throw at me. Marth’s fair, dash-attack, and f-smash can all be shield grabbed if the Match is miss-spacing which is likely if you go deep in with your shield, and Samus’ d-tilt and d-smash, which both are popular moves in this match up, can both be punished OoS with wavedash and grab

    Doctor Mario/ Luigi:

    Pretty the much the same as above, besides that you in general don’t want to go for shield grabs against Luigi and Doc. Ice blocks and blizzard are great against Luigi as he most likely will approach you on the ground. Once you hit him with blizzard you should wavedash in and grab him as fast as possible. A good thing to know is that one ice block cancels out Luigi down-b on the ground. Use this to your advantage, as the Luigi probably isn’t aware of this. ICs don’t really have any moves that lead into grab against Doc. Fair->jab reset can work if you knock him into the ground, but that’s about it. Go for reads and out space him if you want to get grabs.


    Sheik/Pikachu:

    These are probably two of the easier characters to land wobbles on. They can both get around your projectiles rather easily and your other moves don’t really lead into grab. However, because Sopo is able to chain grab both of these characters to high % without much trouble, any grab on one these characters should “always” lead into wobbling. If Nana isn’t in position you can just do the normal d-throw chain grab (works till around 60-70) until she gets to you. Once she is next to you, you should be able to get an infinite going off your next d-throw. If they DI up then just regrab and get the wobbling going.

    Now, if you think they will DI the d-throw away you should be doing this instead: Do a down-throw and do a short hop with Nana while the throwing animation is on and do a running grab with Popo for the regrab. Nana will try to do a fair in the air, but lands again next to Popo ready to f-tilt before the fair comes out. It’s really useful and I use it a lot against Sheik. You can practice it against a CPU in training mode. Set a Sheik/Pikachu CPU to “Evade” and try to get the wobbling to work.

    Jigglypuff:

    It’s generally really hard to land grabs on Puff if the player’s spacing is on point and won’t let you shield grab her. Ice blocks and blizzard are probably your best bet, and sometimes you can catch her with jab -> grab when she’s about to land on the ground and or jump off it, but that’s about it. However, if she misses a rest then make you kill her.

    If Puff hits Nana with the rest then FC f-smash deals the most damage unless you want to go for some sick Sopo combo while Up-smash often is the best move for killing (remember to face away). Ice block can knock her into the ground at low % if the hammer hits and your opponent DI’s down which can lead into some sweet tech chases, but it’s risky to go for.

    Lag-less set ups

    What I mean by “lag-less” is that Nana will not be in her whiffed grab animation at any time which allows for a faster wobbling set up. This can be done in two ways either by letting Nana get hit by a move before the grab animation, or by doing a dash-dance desync before the grab.

    Nana bait into wobbling

    This is a simple yet really useful trick. Here is the idea: Because Nana moves a few frames after Popo it is possible to time a dash so that Popo will just avoid an incoming attack while Nana will still get hit. Popo can now punish with grab, and because Nana is in hit stun she will not be affected by the grab input meaning she will not do a grabbing animation.
    When done right it goes something like this.
    The trick only works against certain attacks and % matters a lot, but at around 0% you can make it work against pretty much any character. It’s a really powerful desync and I’ve gotten a lot of low 0% wobbles with it.

    Dash slide desync

    This is my signature desync and I use it a lot in pretty much every match up. It can be used to desync Nana into any move, but I mainly use it for blizzard, ice blocks, and lag-less grabs. The inputs are simple and the trick is easy once you’ve figured out the timing. Here’s how it’s done:

    Do a dash away from your opponent when both climbers are in sync. Then tap the control stick (without holding) in the opposite direction. If done right Popo will do an initial dash and Nana will slide towards him from behind. While Popo and Nana are in those animations you can do a grab with Popo without affecting Nana, and you can do a blizzard/ice block with Nana without affecting Popo. Here is a match between me and Larry from Evo 2013 where you can see me use it a lot. (0:07, 0:27, 2:21)

    The desync works because:
    - Nana can’t dash dance/pivot
    - The sliding animation can only be cancelled with crouch and jump, nothing else
    - The initial dash animation can be cancelled by anything but crouch and special (b) moves

    I really like this desync and I actually think it is ICs’ most useful desync. It’s fast, it’s easy to do once you get the feeling of it, and you can move away from you opponent while doing the set up meaning it often can lead into “Nana bait” wobbling. It’s also not easy to see when you’re doing the set up and when you’re just moving around unlike set ups like spot dodge/roll/dash dance into desync which are easy to notice.


    Should wobbling be banned?

    I’ve followed this discussion, but never taken part in it mainly because the main problems with the whole debate have already been mentioned quite a few times. To sum things up I’ve here listed the 3 main reasons why I think you can’t just ban wobbling without having to ban ICs.

    What is the definition of an infinite?

    You can’t ban wobbling because there isn’t a clear definition of it. This might sound silly to some, but it’s actually a big deal. The borderline between “wobbling” and “not wobbling” isn’t clear. Grab into blizzard, a trick that has been known and used by IC players since the early years of the game, is inescapable while it’s on once the blizzard connects, however, nobody want this to be banned. So when talking about banning wobbling you first have to figure out how long ICs should be allowed to hold/infinite you, which lead us to the next main problem of the discussion.

    Why are two tilts fairer than three?

    F-tilt, d-tilt, and blizzard are all moves that combined with head butting/pummeling can lock a character in hit stun so that it can’t escape a grab. Now, some people suggest that a way to limit wobbling is to say you’re only allowed to do these moves a certain number of times before you have to do a throw. However, while the idea is fine, it is far from flawless. First you have to decide how many tilts and blizzard you should be able to do, which is subjective – why are two tilts fairer than three? Now, let’s say a TO decides that “you are allowed to do 5 tilts and then you have to do a throw”. Here is what I would do if I played with this rule set: Grab, pummel, down-throw, dair, regrab, pummel, blizzard, jab+pummel, tilt+pummel x 5, f-throw, smash. That’s around 60% just like that, which is enough to get a KO in a lot of situations. Now, if I get the grab at very low % so that I can’t get the KO right away then I can go for a hand off reset*, do it all again and get the KO anyway. All this will still be legal. However, if I did this I would most likely still be claimed as a cheater by my opponent, which leads us to the last main problem.

    *You can do a hand off even though you are not standing close to an edge. If Nana grabs a player mid-stage, she will throw in a random direction. It's only possible to get a regrab with Popo if she does a f-throw or a d-throw, which only happens 50% of the time. Example 1, example 2

    People still don’t understand Ice Climbers well enough

    Very specific rules like the one just mentioned will not be practical in a tournament setting because most people (that being pretty much everyone who doesn’t main ICs) will not be able to see whether the infinite is legal or not. If I did stuff like what I’ve just mentioned to get a KO off a grab at 0% (which would only happen 50% of the time at best with the hand off reset) then I’m pretty sure my opponent would say that I’m breaking the rules even though I didn’t. Then my opponent would probably call the TO who wouldn’t be able to decide anything because he didn’t see what happened and all hell breaks loose. Much too often I watch a tournament match with ICs where the commentators say stuff that isn’t true about the ICs, which annoys me a little. Stuff like “he could have saved Nana” when the ICs couldn’t, “he messed up his chain grab/hand off/wobbling” while the ICs player didn’t, “he should just have wobbled him there” where the ICs player would not be able to. This isn’t really the commentators’ fault, but it clearly shows that people generally lack knowledge about ICs. Try comparing Wobbles’ commentary to anyone else’s when there’s ICs on the screen.

    I really dislike wobbling myself and I’d wish it wasn’t in the game. However, it is and it isn’t game breaking because ICs isn’t overpowered in any way, with or without wobbling. If wobbling is OP then we should ban ICs, but luckily it isn’t. I do believe it would have been better for the game as a whole if it didn’t exist, though. “Then why do you use it?” Well, because I’m playing a bad’ish character and I want to win.

    ______________________________________

    That's it. I hope you learned a thing or two. If you have any comments or questions, feel free to post in this thread.
    Thanks to Eagle and King Funk for proofreading, and thanks to Kukzzzz for telling me that I should start to use wobbling.
     
  2. Encephalon Decay

    Encephalon Decay
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    I may be new to the board and smash scene (Been playing for years, but never any tourneys close enough for me to attend), but as an IC player who loves all things technical about them, I give this guide a solid 9/10. A few typos here and there, but overall an excellent guide in my opinion, with some things I hadn't even known about in it (I'll be testing out that dash slide :p). Videos are always useful as well (Many people need a visual after all), and it's good to see that you had some to demonstrate what you meant.
     
  3. Navn

    Navn
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    I'm not sure whether i love or hate this guide.
     
  4. HoChiMinhTrail

    HoChiMinhTrail
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    Smash Master

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    Climbers pwn without wobbling, but with it...... God damn.
     
  5. Tomber

    Tomber
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    Thanks for the feedback, guys. I really hope people will read the whole thing at some point, especially high/mid level ICs mains who want to use wobbling in tournament.
     
  6. A-1

    A-1
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    thank you.
     
  7. Grim Tuesday

    Grim Tuesday
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    People don't talk about the mental side of the game enough.

    Thank you for writing this.
     
  8. Rath420

    Rath420
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    Great guide. Currently in the process of switching my main from Falco to IC because I recently found that I could wobble with some consistency.
     
  9. darkatma

    darkatma
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    That was an excellent read, and I'll be back to look at details again soon. I've always wanted to get a better look at wobbling, but haven't read anything as comprehensive as this.
     
  10. Crezyte

    Crezyte
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    So basically, my best hope against wobbling is to start singing and prep my butt to DI. Thanks for that info :) I just hope that the next time I get wobbled (if ever) is if the ICs player sets it up in a cool way.
     
    emiguelsv likes this.
  11. DerfMidWest

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    Fresh Eskimo

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    yes, once the wobble gets going, there is pretty much no use in mashing (unless you can tell their timing is off)
    but it's best to prepare your DI and shake it off without losing momentum.
     
  12. Renth

    Renth
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    Uber Ice will wobble me time to time as a joke because he's very talented at combos and follow ups he doesn't need it, there are a lot of times if i keep mashing while he's doing it, it will throw him off. A lot of it is in your head in tense situations you can make them nervous.

    Not long ago I would have argued to the death wobbling was stupid and you might as well freeze glitch me because I can't do anything on my controller anyway. Now that I have experience against a really good ice climber I can strongly say if you get wobbled it's your own fault.
     
    emiguelsv likes this.
  13. Grim Tuesday

    Grim Tuesday
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    It's your own fault if you get freeze-glitched as well lol
     
  14. Renth

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    lol thanks for adding to the conversation you clown
     
  15. Tomber

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    Saying someone doesn't need wobbling because he is good at combos and follow ups doesn't really sound as a legit argument to me unless the player beats everyone consistently or doesn't care that much about winning. For example, Fly is arguably the best active Ice Climbers player atm, but I'm still significantly better than him at wobbling and I'm therefore better than him at handling certain situations even though he is the better player overall. This is definitely an aspect of his game that he can (and IMO should) improve on in order to get a higher winning rate.

    However, if someone doesn't use wobbling because he doesn't like to then fair enough. I can't argue with that.

    Btw, thanks for the feedback guys. I really appreciate it.
     
  16. DerfMidWest

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    I used to get thrown off by people mashing, but usually it doesn't affect me.
    It helps me to just watch the percent and focus entirely on that.
    that's just me though. I drop wobbles like no other.
     
  17. Fly_Amanita

    Fly_Amanita
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    I've been making a point of practicing everyday very recently, so hopefully I'll actually be able to get better on this front soon.
     
    S2rulL likes this.
  18. KoRoBeNiKi

    KoRoBeNiKi
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    Freeze glitch is a form of stalling obv.
     
  19. Encephalon Decay

    Encephalon Decay
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    Now that this is back on the front page, and looking over it again, I feel like it should be stickied. It's really a pretty informative guide, even if there is already a wobbling one.
     
  20. mixa

    mixa
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    Nice read. Thanks for writing it, Tomber, especially the non-technical topics (I'm mere spectator of the game by now).
     
  21. JKJ

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    Thanks for writing this. As a spacie main who plays against a relentless wobbler in my region, I usually avoid getting grabbed well enough to win. But now I know my best options to fight wobbling, and understand better what my local IC's main is doing/looking for to set up the wobble. Thanks for writing this, even though I don't like wobbling, I agree with it being legal, and I am prepared (better now thanks to your guide) to battle against it. I would like to know specifically, though, two things:

    1. How do you think the Falco/IC's matchup works? Do you think it's in IC's favor/ how do you approach it?
    2. How does a spacie get out of downthrow/downair regrab combos? There is one specific IC's who repeatedly does this to the same effect as Wobbling essentially, and he says that it's inescapable, but I feel that that's untrue. What's the correct DI and/or response to get out of repeated downthrow downair regrabs? Is it truly inescapable if executed perfectly?
     
  22. DerfMidWest

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    1. I think the matchup is pretty even, I like to play ultra aggressive and be in falco's face.
    The trick is pressuring ICs and keeping them on the defensive, but being patient and not overly aggressive, because then you'll just get punished for being falco.
    I think platform camping with bairs and stuff is fantastic.
    your goal is to separate the ICs and keep them apart for as long as you can. don't focus solely on nana or popo, just keep them apart.

    2. it's hard as falco, but you can escape. you have to SDI down and away and then buffer a roll or spot-dodge. no matter what you do, the ICs are able to follow you, but a lot of times it requires a hard read, so be sure to mix it up and not be too predictable.
     
  23. Tomber

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    1. People usually say the Falco MU is evenish. I think it's in Falco's favor, but not by too much. It depends a lot on how the Falco player wants to play. Against campy Falcos who uses a lot of lasers ICs can just shoot ice back while trying to gain stage control. This is usually a winning battle for ICs if the Falco doesn't mix his game up efficiently. Against platform camping Falcos ICs should be patient and try to intercept Falco when he jumps/falls to ICs from the platforms. You usually don't want to commit hard when you chase Falco on platforms as it isn't too hard for him to get around ICs and punish really hard with a shine combo. I like to use a lot of empty jumps and watch how the Falco reacts so that I more easily can get some reads on his jumping patterns. Against aggressive Falcos who use a lot of dair/shine/f-smash I just try to out space them and punish them harder than they punish me. ICs can't really do much about Falco's shield pressure once hit in shield, so if you as the Falco player is confident enough in your tech skill you can approach more directly.

    The MU becomes hard when Falco starts to mix up these ways of playing the MU. Falco (or spacies in general) dictates the MU so you want to respond accordingly in order to beat him, which isn't easy against fast/smart players. Stuff like drop from platform -> laser -> f-smash, drop from platform -> shine -> re-jump, as well as simply approaching with SH dair -> shine are all decent tools in the MU. On a more general note, Falco really needs to punish hard when he splits the climbers up. Keep Popo away from you with lasers while you try to KO Nana. Sopo can still punish you hard after you have KO'ed Nana, but I still think that you should focus on Nana when you have split them up because Sopo can't really do anything about lasers. However, if you are confident that you can KO Popo without much trouble then go for it.

    Oh, and Falco's d-throw is safe against ICs. Don't be afraid to grab if the ICs player sits a lot in his shield.
    2. Pretty much what Derf said. It's escapable with proper (S)DI. Just be careful when you DI away/down because ICs can do a mix up with d-throw->d-smash which can kill at very low % if you DI it away.
     
  24. DerfMidWest

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    falco's fthrow is also very good against the ICs. It's fast and it will knock nana down and separate them.
     
    Tomber likes this.
  25. Yardsale

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    How do you finish a wobble? I always stuggle to get the kill of the wobble and when i try to do the dsmash , popo always dthrow. Any advice?
     
  26. Tomber

    Tomber
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    It's a timing thing. You want to press down on the c-stick while Popo is in a lag-animation (pummeling) so that the input doesn't affect him. I use Popo's head as my visual cue: Press down on the c-stick just as Popo's head hits the other player.
     
  27. IceTrain

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    Its a tricky stance to uphold. On one hand, of course I'd love to improve my game and take advantages of things that help me win, but on the other hand I don't like playing a "gimmicky" character and enjoy when someone compliments me on my game. Yeah practicing it will make you better at it, But I feel that unless you hit a plateau, there's other areas you can focus improvements on. A lot of "wobblers" crumble against people who know how to avoid it, and although it is a very viable strat, it seems it should only be worked on as an accompiament to already high level play.
     
    #27 IceTrain, Aug 4, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
    emiguelsv and Tomber like this.
  28. Tomber

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    Yeah, I agree. You should first practice this stuff after you've reached a certain level of game understanding and have developed good fundamentals. Players like Nintendude, Fly, Smasher89, Wobbles, ChuDat, and Daümling come to mind.

    My grab punish game is better than any of these players, but most of them probably have better fundamentals. If I had had some people to play with in the past then I would definitely had focused more on developing good fundamentals by now, but the scene in Denmark has always been small, so I could only practice stuff on my own. Like all this.

    With that said, the mentioned players could still work on their grab punish game.

    (Someone should sticky the thread)
     
    #28 Tomber, Aug 5, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  29. DerfMidWest

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    This thread definitely needs to be stickied.

    but yeah, there is an importance to having a strong grab punish game, even without converting to a wobble, you should be able to get at least 50% off a grab, if not a kill. Wobbling is your best punish, if it's possible, but it's really important to know everything else and develop strong fundamentals, because there is sooo much more depth to the character than "grab->wobble->kill"
     
  30. S2rulL

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    I agree with this completely. When I first picked up Icies from Puff all I pretty much did was sit and wait to shield grab a mistake from my opponent and it worked for a while but then the rest of my region caught on to it and started to wise up so I had to learn neutral game as well as other options in grab and the actual intricacies of Icies.
     
  31. DerfMidWest

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    for sure, just knowing how to wobble or chaingrab only gets you so far.
    there is A LOT more depth to the character, which a lot of people who like to complain seem to disregard.

    just being able to wobble doesn't get you a win.
    similarly, not being able to wobble doesn't give you a loss
    (although it is a solid punish and will definitely help matchups like samus/peach/luigi if you land a grab)

    but the problem with banning it is:
    a) even with it, the ICs are not a top character and don't really place at things anyway
    b) it removes options, which are really needed in select matchups (specifically the ones I mentioned)
     
    S2rulL likes this.
  32. HodgyDot

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    all the videos not working mannnn
     
  33. S2rulL

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    @Tomber Links aren't working dude
     
  34. DerfMidWest

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    every link still works for me. might be your browser.
     
  35. S2rulL

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    Oh, they're all working for me now... Weird lol
     
  36. Amadeus

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    figured it out
     
    #36 Amadeus, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
  37. Amadeus

    Amadeus
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    does it matter if nana jabs before she tilts?
     
  38. Cervidae

    Cervidae
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    Depends on the percentage and how quickly your opponent mashes. Early on it matters as it leaves a window of opportunity for your opponent to escape, but in the higher percents the timing is too strict to allow your opponent to break out.
     
  39. Tomber

    Tomber
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    Wibbles likes this.
  40. Asgard

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    Glad I read this, I don't play ICs, but I learned a good bit about my MUs against them and more about what goes through an ICs player's head. I've been thinking about pickup up ICs for fun, maybe I'll do that now. Great guide!
     

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