BBR's views on Bowser's matchups

[Flayl]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298484
PDF: http://m2eila.fr/Slhoka/Brawl_Matchup_Chart/brawl_matchup_chart.pdf

-3
-2
-3
-2
-3
-2
-4
-3
-2
-4
-2
-2
-2
-2
-2
-2
-1
-3
-2
-2
-2
-1
-1
-1
0
-1
-1
-1
-3
+1
0
0
-3
+2
0
-1
+1

 

[Flayl]

Matchups I don't see why / I disagree with:
Wario, Pit, Yoshi and Samus being worse than -2
Marth, G&W, Lucario, Kirby, Peach, Donkey Kong, Luigi being worse than -1
Sheilda IMO could be -2
Ike could be -1
Captain Falcon could be +1
I don't think we beat Jigglypuff worse than Ganon, both could be +1

 

[Cassius.]

WHAAAAAAAAT at all of these.

seriously, what the ****?

oh wait, -1 is close to even, nvm.

luigi, gw and lucario should be -1

pit, yoshi and samus can't be worse than -2,
what flayl said about his disagreements, we have basically the same issues

although i can answer why wario pit yoshi and samus are worse than -2.

they can literally sit back and wait for bowser to do something or **** up, and then they can just either:

cg to death in wario/yoshi's case
reset the situation and camp more in all of their cases. although samus and pit are a little suspect, id put them as -2.

ike is 0, i agree with that
sonic should be +1 imo and cf can be +1.

i think we beat jigglypuff worse than ganondorf though..

i also disagree with fox being -2. wholeheartedly.

im trying to understand why there were no bowser mains that were outside sources...i forget, who's in the bbr that uses bowser? only mreh?

 

[Flayl]

I'm guessing Vex provided input too.

I wouldn't think of small disadvantages/advantages being "near even". Near even should be left at 0.

 

[Cassius.]

oh...that explains the Samus/Jigglypuff number then, but what happened to Sonic?

 

[Flayl]

oh...that explains the Samus/Jigglypuff number then, but what happened to Sonic?

Vex (and myself for that matter) think Bowser loses slightly to Sonic.

Samus I have no idea WTF happened. If it was really +3 Xyro would've ***** Zigsta far harder than he actually did.

 

[Cassius.]

Really? I dunno, but at least it's -1 and not some absurd thing.

I remember Vex saying last year that Samus beat Bowser 70-30, so I was surprised but after I gave it some thought, I wasn't. idk if he was involved in the MU chart or not, but I'd be surprised if he wasn't.

Also, you gotta remember, Zigsta wasn't up to par at all (IMO, but I'm a harsh critic anyway) when he first played Xyro, and even then he didn't lose badly enough to warrant a -3.

the way i see it

0 = 50/50
-1 = 45/55
-2 = 40/60
-3 = 35-65
-4 = 30-70/worse

i looked at the individual spread and i just have a biiiig problem looking at -3, which he says is large disadv/hard counter, and seeing pit/yoshi/samus there

i mean, i know bowser has 40-60's across the board, but come on -.-

 

[Flayl]

Also, you gotta remember, Zigsta wasn't up to par at all (IMO, but I'm a harsh critic anyway) when he first played Xyro, and even then he didn't lose badly enough to warrant a -3.

Exactly.

Don't try to convert this to numbers, it's a pain. Just go by "difficulty" feel.

Example: Yoshi is easier than Olimar. Olimar is easier than ICs.

 

[Cassius.]

i guess. it's just easier for me to read it as #:# as opposed to positive/negative scales.

it's just a weird thing to begin with. lol

 

[Zigsta]

Yeah, Samus isn't -3. My Bowser was trash then; I openly admit it.

 

[Flayl]

I'm not even saying it was trash, I'm saying it was definitely not on Xyro's Samus level, and there's nothing to be ashamed about that lol

 

[Jonas]

I did not expect Ike to go even with Bowser

Not that I really care about matchups. Part of being a low tier main is dealing with ****ty matchups. Overall it doesn't look so bad though.

PS. the Pit ratio is just wrong lol =D

 

[Xyro77]

Yeah, Samus isn't -3. My Bowser was trash then; I openly admit it.

I'm not even saying it was trash, I'm saying it was definitely not on Xyro's Samus level, and there's nothing to be ashamed about that lol

You claim you have several good people around youu using samus vs yo bowser nearly on a daily basis. This means our next fight you will be fully prepared for me. But At WHOBO, i will yet again prove Samus MOLESTS bowser.

 

[Uncle]

Matchups I don't see why / I disagree with:
Wario, Pit, Yoshi and Samus being worse than -2
Marth, G&W, Lucario, Kirby, Peach, Donkey Kong, Luigi being worse than -1
Sheilda IMO could be -2
Ike could be -1
Captain Falcon could be +1
I don't think we beat Jigglypuff worse than Ganon, both could be +1

Bolded parts are the ones I agree with.

Overall, this chart is pretty good, though.

 

[Chuee]

You claim you have several good people around youu using samus vs yo bowser nearly on a daily basis. This means our next fight you will be fully prepared for me. But At WHOBO, i will yet again prove Samus MOLESTS bowser.

inb4Xyroloses

 

[Cassius.]

xyro said these same things before and won

but i have confidence that zigsta will do better when/if he plays

 

[Flayl]

Ok, an explanation for Bowser being massively underrated is out.

The Real Inferno was one of Bowser's panelists (wtf). In case you do't remember he's the one who brought us posts like
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10980279&postcount=2

 

[Cassius.]

well...that's a *****.

but ight, enough ****-talking. we're gonna take this MU controversy to the Bowser backroom so we can actually get to work on this and get better reasoning/accuracy on this stuff.

it's stupid how they had him for a third source and decided not to consult any of us. i know vex is the bowser god or whatever but he still hasn't even touched him in a while. and at least put someone who uses bowser on the third spot...(not coming at you vex, im talking about inferno)

if inferno claims to use bowser then that's ******** because i haven't seen anything

nevermind, i just thought about it. this isn't game changing. it's all opinion so it's w/e. we don't need to bother/do that much

 

[King Funk]

Wario is -3 and Falco -2? o_o

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lets me look back at the discussions Luc's had.

*checks*

Yeah most people said +2, Bowser panel agreed with us so we went with it.

We didn't heavily discuss it because the opposing panel agreed with the averages I posted for the BBR from the LBR.

 

[Flayl]

Are there any posters here that would disagree if we took this list with some changes and used it as our own?

These are the changes in mind:
Game and Watch: -1
Lucario: -1
Luigi: -1
Pit: -2
Captain Falcon: +1
Samus: -2

We should probably have discussions about the following characters, where it feels like we disagree more:
Wario
Fox
Sonic
Yoshi
Jigglypuff

 

[Uncle]

Are there any posters here that would disagree if we took this list with some changes and used it as our own?

These are the changes in mind:
Game and Watch: -1
Lucario: -1
Luigi: -1
Pit: -2
Captain Falcon: +1
Samus: -2

I have no objections to these changes. I thought Falcon was a 0 at first, but then I realized I was giving the Brawl Knee too much credit, lol. Either way, it's a very winnable MU for for the Captain, and he'll take what he can get.

 

[MrEh]

Ok, an explanation for Bowser being massively underrated is out.

The Real Inferno was one of Bowser's panelists (wtf). In case you do't remember he's the one who brought us posts like
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10980279&postcount=2

The Real Inferno's opinions on Bowser's matchups were very similar to mine and Vex's.

He's not to blame.

 

[Flayl]

Since when did you guys start thinking Pit and Samus hard-counter'd us? Why did we go from being even (in the old matchup discussions) with Luigi to having -2?

 

[MrEh]

For the record, I wanted Pit to be -2. However, Vex was adamant that Pit was -3. And since he knows more about the character then I do, I figured that it would be better to go with the -3. And since the BBR Pit's were also pushing for a -3 at the time, both panels were pretty satisfied.

I've always thought that Samus did really well against Bowser. lol

As for Luigi, we unanimously agreed that it was a -2. Luigi's poor approach options aren't that big of a factor against Bowser, since he has no real way of running away or camping Luigi. Luigi chains attacks together well and once he gets Bowser above him, it's hard for Bowser to escape without taking big damage. Also, Luigi kills early.

Wario is -3 and Falco -2? o_o

Wario has a chaingrab on Bowser that's more matchup-wrecking then Falco's.

 

[Flayl]

I think you're overestimating the damage Luigi can get off of 1 string. Also how good he is at dealing with klaw hopping. Luigi kills early no doubt.

You don't have to take my word for it, MM any Luigi you can find

Here's the first match of Ixis's set against J.Miller, the rest should be in the related videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOAUhM7LQBA

And yes Samus does really well against Bowser... for SAMUS. She never shut him down. She's more annoying than anything else. I'm not saying she doesn't beat Bowser, just not as bad as -3.

What Pits have played against what Bowser? Why would Pit be better at the bowser matchup than most of the high tiers? Yes he has the shield, but it's not a guaranteed gimp, specially because Pit is horrible at knocking Bowser back enough for a recovery situation to happen. it just feels like too much theorycrafting to have him as -3.

 

[Flayl]

I've been searching what the best secondaries for Bowser would be. Here are the top 5 in order, if no change is done to the matchup chart:

MK (duh)

Peach (Best against Wario and maybe Diddy out of these 4)
Falco (Best against Olimar out of these 4)
Ice Climbers (Best against Dedede out of these 4)
Diddy Kong (Arguably the best against MK and Ice Climbers out of these 4)

If you think Peach's matchups look a little too good, after compensating she becomes the 5th best secondary. I'm really curious to try out Peach now.

 

[Cassius.]

I've been searching what the best secondaries for Bowser would be. Here are the top 5 in order, if no change is done to the matchup chart:

MK (duh)

Peach (Best against Wario and maybe Diddy out of these 4)
Falco (Best against Olimar out of these 4)
Ice Climbers (Best against Dedede out of these 4)
Diddy Kong (Arguably the best against MK and Ice Climbers out of these 4)

If you think Peach's matchups look a little too good, after compensating she becomes the 5th best secondary. I'm really curious to try out Peach now.

I use MK and Falco pretty pretty often, and my Peach/ICs are garbage.

I haven't bothered to try Diddy yet. idk

wait, what happened to Olimar/G&W being pretty good secondaries?

we had a thread regarding secondary ratings last year

 

[Uncle]

I'm also a GDubs player. He helps out Bowser, but not to a huge degree. He gets even matchups (according to the chart) with Wario, Falco, and D3, which is nice. MK, ICs, Diddy, and Olimar will still not be in your favor, though.

I mainly play him because I find him really fun, and he's pretty good to boot.

 

[B!squick]

As long as Luigi is careful and makes good use of BAir, he shouldn't have much trouble beating Bowser. Miller actually killed Ixis off a PSed BAir to Fortress OoS in that first video. I can see it being -2.

Pit does bring up many "huhs?" though... But then I remember one of Pit's favorite things is to use the ledge like a cheap [another word for female escort] much like Spamus. :S

 

[Flayl]

As long as Luigi is careful and makes good use of BAir, he shouldn't have much trouble beating Bowser. Miller actually killed Ixis off a PSed BAir to Fortress OoS in that first video. I can see it being -2.

Pit does bring up many "huhs?" though... But then I remember one of Pit's favorite things is to use the ledge like a cheap [another word for female escort] much like Spamus. :S

Pit's planking isn't an issue for Bowser (firebreath). MK's and G&W's are the ones that really give bowser trouble.

Limit: Olimar loses against IC and MK and goes even with the rest of the matchups Bowser needs secondaries for. he's ok, just not as good as those 5 I listed.

G&W loses pretty badly to MK, Ice Climbers and Olimar.

 

[B!squick]

If Pit isn't hitting Bowser before Bowser can get close enough to use Firebreath AND before Bowser can get all the way through the start up animation AND before the flames can hit him, he'll be flying under the stage or away from it. Or he can just use DownB.

As far as theorycraft goes, I don't see Firebreath being a problem for Pit. In fact, just the opposite.

 

[theNEXUS]

ok i dont try to ask a stupid question so if neone thinks it is feel free to flame me but neway iv seen pro Bowser players take out other amazing players so idk i main Ice Climbers but i might start playing Bowser neways wut do u guys think is sum of Bowsers strongest and weakest matchups?

 

[Dumbfire]

ok i dont try to ask a stupid question so if neone thinks it is feel free to flame me but neway iv seen pro Bowser players take out other amazing players so idk i main Ice Climbers but i might start playing Bowser neways wut do u guys think is sum of Bowsers strongest and weakest matchups?

You... Look at the.. Chart..? And ofcourse, our comments on it. Just read through the thread and the chart and you'll find everything you need.

 

[Chuee]

What Pits have played against what Bowser? Why would Pit be better at the bowser matchup than most of the high tiers? Yes he has the shield, but it's not a guaranteed gimp, specially because Pit is horrible at knocking Bowser back enough for a recovery situation to happen. it just feels like too much theorycrafting to have him as -3.

I think King Kong played Earth's pit in pools at Apex.

 

[weegeezilla]

i think the reason bowser has +2 on jigglypuff is because half of bowser's attacks can kill jiggly at like 70% or so