Basic Mafia

[#HBC | marshy]

as for the suicide bomb question youre shifting the goal posts. you came into the thread today saying "me or ro". i took you up on it. youre now saying youve switched to me/ro and expecting me to just accept that. no way dude

most of your points can be summed up by laziness on my part. ill own up to that. i have been lazy. thats cuz this game is BORING. i havent outright said it. but it is. i was invested in the ms game cuz it was exciting and had a lot of posting and several scum still running around. and i felt like i was on the verge of solving it. ive lost plenty of games where town put way too much stock into analyzing partners interactions and throwing it as a result

by your OWN logic if i am scum then my point holds. you and others practically cleared me cuz of ran hopping on my wagon d1. and now youre going to act like its ridiculous? cmon son

btw one more thing

 

[#HBC | marshy]

i posted this on my phone before i entered spoiled chat in the ms game. i was 2/3 and the only reason i didnt pick the other scum was cuz of a crazy bus/gambit the team was doing. he had originally been my choice for the lynch that dayphase

im a g

 

[adumbrodeus]

what is your point? if youre scum like i think you are you need to lay the groundwork down for a mislynch tomorrow. youve gone on record stating xat is town (and its hard for you to flip on him considering you guys have been in sync all game) and going so far as to say that vinyls late posting yesterday was a "town tell". ive had enough of the chiding when this play makes sense from you as scum

My point is you have no evidence I wasn't willing to go through it. 0.

I also had no reason to bring it up in the first place if I wasn't just trying to go berserker on murdering Ro's face.

Xatres got me a deal where I don't have to sacrifice a confirmed town slot to kill from my lynchpool, what pro town reason is there to not take it?

 

[Xatres]

There's a lot here so I'm going to try to break it out into pieces.

Xatres - Xatres is my stronger scum lean. The three reasons he gave for his scumteam (that were actually two reasons) in his #442 were him halting the Adum wagon and that he placed himself in the lynchpool, which scum would of course never do because that raises the likelihood of scum getting lynched. I agree that the whole thing about the Adum wagon was sketch (unless you play scum as close to town as possible, which I've seen people screw over scummates in the interest of not introducing anything off into their play), but your whole reasoning behind putting yourself in the lynchpool being a valid reason why you're not scum is invalid. You putting yourself in the lynchpool doesn't make you significantly more likely to be lynched because nobody was interested in lynching you at all D1. I'd usually let stuff like this go, except you harped on it afterwards (“Xatres had even offered himself up as a sacrificial lamb for town's benefit," #446).

You are misrepresenting my argument. The point went beyond the fact that by scum!Xat volunteering himself he was putting both scummates at risk. The point was that scum!Xat could just have easily bussed Ran directly, which would have been easier and garnered more towncred if the lynch went through. Essentially, scum!Xat would be favoring a higher risk, lower reward option compared to just bussing outright.

I was also shocked at how quickly he wanted to end my slot after the replace in. He was questioning Ro, and then tried to get me killed off of the momentum from the replace.

Again, you are applying faulty logic here. When you replaced in, I had just finished a big assault on Ro that I hoped would convince Vinyl to jump on her wagon, allowing Adum to give up his suicide plan. Your replacement destroyed all that. You say I was trying to "kill you off of the momentum from the replace," but the fact is that a replacement doesn't create momentum, it KILLS it. I was simply trying to keep the existing momentum going after Ro decided to screw us all over.

A player that typically plays this logically suddenly ignoring the advantages of my slot leaving a paper trail makes absolutely no sense aside from him wanted to get me out before I could look over the game and possibly provide more information.

No, I explained this already and you are ignoring my arguments. Which is ironic considering that's exactly what Ro did to kick off my suspicions Day 1.

The problem with a replacement player hopping in on a scummy slot right before it gets lynched is this: You have every opportunity to disown your predecessor's play. You have three Days of content to sift through with no accountability, and you can create whatever reads and arguments you want to make yourself look townie.

You aren't providing "more information" because literally nothing you say can be trusted.

He'll inevitably say "Wow, OMGUS to the max, let's kill him," but I'm a little concerned how much a slot that has been tunneling a townie all game long with few other contributions has had a blind eye turned to him all game long because of his logical arguments (which are still fairly easy to make as scum).

I don't think anyone's turned a blind eye to me. Other players have commented on my play - some positively, others negatively. I've also went out of my way to do an extensive reread of the entire game on Day 2 and provide thoughts on every player. So even though I'm thoroughly convinced your slot is scum, I have clearly demonstrated that I'm not ignoring the rest of the game.

I understand if you guys want to kill me because of my slot's actions and I apologize to Xatres if he's actually town for having possibly one of the worst tunnels in DGames history, but if I die today, I'd appreciate it if you'd give this slot a second look during the night. I'll vote Adum if it comes down to just me and him to preserve a confirmed slot (from my PoV), but I'd really prefer to avoid it.

The fact is that even I'm wrong about your slot, you are still the one who strategically needs to die today. With both Adum and myself hard scumreading you, leaving you alive makes it easy for scum to win in LyLo.

You can call it tunnelling all you want, but I think I've proven that I have valid reasons for scumreading you, from both a scumhunting and strategic standpoint.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

if youre going to try to have me argue that you shouldnt take the opportunity to lynch your top scum read when you have an opportunity to then no dice there my friend. if youre town i understand and id do the same. but i also think you are throwing this by coming at me should you be wrong on ro and town after all

youve made a play that you can justify no matter what happens. its a whack move on your part but logically padded which i expect from you as scum. i also hate how you just said you would take up the deal to kill me OR ro when youve been pushing the latter all game. so youd offer your head to kill me tomorrow and let ro win regardless of his alignment? boi please

 

[Xatres]

Another option is scum!Xatres offing J and then saying that someone else did it to incriminate you. Either option is WIFOM and leaving us with a null interaction and no J. It seems like a pretty dumb move for scum!Ro to make because it leaves my slot null, doesn't really incriminate you at all, and gives me one less supporter when scum!Ro could've just said she was framed, but maybe I'm the only one to see it that way.

So if you have replaced in a day sooner, who would you have NK'd, assuming Red Ryu still got lynched without Ro?

And you guys were on the same level on my list because I couldn't figure out if I wanted to have you as a scum lean or a scum read. Ordering does matter on my lists, though, so I usually try to list the person that is most suspicious at the bottom and most suspicious at the top (unless I'm doing the list in the order from the OP, in which case I just color my reads randomly).

That doesn't change the fact that based on your list, if you can't get a Xat lynch, you'll be going after Adum next. I don't know why you are even arguing this point.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

My point is you have no evidence I wasn't willing to go through it. 0.

anytime someone says "ima do x" then says "nevermind im doin y cuz z" of course ima take issue with it. if you really want to play this game then you have no evidence that i havent just been lazy this game. were gauging each others actions and making judgement calls largely off of circumstantial evidence. if anyone had any hard evidence of anyone lying about their action this game would be over by now. i wonder if you put this in there to discredit me

 

[adumbrodeus]

as for the suicide bomb question youre shifting the goal posts. you came into the thread today saying "me or ro". i took you up on it. youre now saying youve switched to me/ro and expecting me to just accept that. no way dude

most of your points can be summed up by laziness on my part. ill own up to that. i have been lazy. thats cuz this game is BORING. i havent outright said it. but it is. i was invested in the ms game cuz it was exciting and had a lot of posting and several scum still running around. and i felt like i was on the verge of solving it. ive lost plenty of games where town put way too much stock into analyzing partners interactions and throwing it as a result

by your OWN logic if i am scum then my point holds. you and others practically cleared me cuz of ran hopping on my wagon d1. and now youre going to act like its ridiculous? cmon son

btw one more thing

I don't believe you. You're one of the most conscientious players in the game, I don't believe you'd be that continuously and repeatedly lazy.

If you're are just being that damn lazy then Ro's the last scum and you have nothing to worry about.

But after the 15th time I chided you on obvious **** (like dear God, that J was the only reason I survived d1) I couldn't believe it anymore.

Especially not after how you played penguin mafia including the post game.

i posted this on my phone before i entered spoiled chat in the ms game. i was 2/3 and the only reason i didnt pick the other scum was cuz of a crazy bus/gambit the team was doing. he had originally been my choice for the lynch that dayphase

im a g

That's why I don't believe lazy marshy.

The only reason why I considered the possibility of it being a Gambit is **** like this.

The reason I'd never let you live as scum (barring things like PRS and you being obviously protected ) is this.

You're too f***ING good for me to believe you.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Xatres talk to me.

 

[Xatres]

Still reading through stuff and trying to post from work.

 

[adumbrodeus]

anytime someone says "ima do x" then says "nevermind im doin y cuz z" of course ima take issue with it. if you really want to play this game then you have no evidence that i havent just been lazy this game. were gauging each others actions and making judgement calls largely off of circumstantial evidence. if anyone had any hard evidence of anyone lying about their action this game would be over by now. i wonder if you put this in there to discredit me

Evidence from PLAY, where's the evidence I'm being disingenuous.

I provided mountains of evidence from play about your laziness and evidence for why I don't believe it was laziness.

If you think I was being fake, instead of convinced by Xatres there was a better way, illustrate it.

 

[Xatres]

On your point about J being NK'd:

I completely agree that scum!Adum killing J would have been a strategic blunder.

In that scenario, you've got town!Xat and town!Ro going at each other, with J leaning on siding with Ro and scum!Adum siding with Xat. Either way XatvRo goes on D3, you get a town flip, which incriminates the other player. J would have helped push the kill in the Xat direction, which is all the better for scum!adum.

I really don't see how a J NK would work out in his favor at all, even in a wifom-y kind of way.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

not playing into your lawyer games adum. stick to ro. if you manage to get me today my flip condemns you and weve thrown it if were both town

xat the thing with the j kill is that dude was never getting lynched. literally EVERYONE alive has been kicked around as a lynch option except vinyl. the only person you can point to that adum would have killed otherwise would prolly b me but its not a bad trade at all considering i was in js lynch pool before he died

 

[#HBC | marshy]

as for the lazy thing

ive been lazy in not remembering the minor details. ive done pretty good considering ive narrowed down the scum to 2 which how many lynches we have should i b wrong on the first one (but still right on the other)

adum you are exaggerating about you almost being lynched d1. you had the most votes at the time but the winds were blowing towards rans direction for most of the day phase and the only person spearheading you was kary with xat even defending you. that datapoint ignores context

 

[Xatres]

To be fair, if I was asked to describe Marshy's play in one phrase, from the limited number of times we've played together, I'd say "frustratingly lazy."

I feel like getting opinions out of Marshy is pretty much always like pulling teeth.

 

[Xatres]

Vinylic. - get in here and start talking. I really hate that I've had you as a big, fat NULL all game, and we're about to head into LyLo.

Assuming everyone had to shut up and only answer questions posed by you for the remainder of the game day, what would be your process for determining who the lynch should be?

 

[adumbrodeus]

To be fair, if I was asked to describe Marshy's play in one phrase, from the limited number of times we've played together, I'd say "frustratingly lazy."

I feel like getting opinions out of Marshy is pretty much always like pulling teeth.

That's not what I'm talking about though, he always plays close to the chest, rarely explains his votes and the like.

Getting significant details wrong, especially lynches, no.

 

[adumbrodeus]

adum you are exaggerating about you almost being lynched d1. you had the most votes at the time but the winds were blowing towards rans direction for most of the day phase and the only person spearheading you was kary with xat even defending you. that datapoint ignores context

With pretty much everyone in the game saying they'd be ok with my lynch.

Flipped town J confirms my reading of the situation as well:

Adumb is something of a second most likely to be scum-read. He is correct on the article stating that I was the sole decider of whether he lived or died yesterDay when looking back at the posts. My vote came at a time that seemed to sway the rest of the cast into the Ranmaru direction. The reason I decided to vote Ran over Dumb is that I also feel that his reactions to being lynched were genuine and something that read to me more as a town that got caught in an inactivity spurt. I would also like to point out that I do see Adumb trying to scum-hunt in his own fashion, though nothing has really bared fruitful yet from him. (To be honest, no one besides Ro Laren has actually nailed a scummy nor shown anything to indicated a reason to call someone scum for valid reasons yet so we are all in that boat)

Xatres you were there, was my and J's read correct?

 

[#HBC | marshy]

is your plan to bring xat into lylo tomorrow? this constant deferring to him is gross

i was there. rans name was floated much more than yours and he was named first as a potential play. j was prolly just flexing and on his own jock. ran was a constant play in most peoples eyes while yours was more a flash in the pan

 

[Xatres]

I wouldn't go so far as to say J was the sole decider of whether you lived or died. Other players may have jumped in, read my post, and decided against joining your wagon. But credit where credit is due, J got there first and was the first to make a move based on my objectives. I was not in a position to move the needle without support.

But if Marshy is doubting whether or not you were at risk of being lynched, he really has no business doing so. You and Ran were already engaged in a pseudo post-mortem discussion, and looking at how Red Ryu's lynch turned out at the end of Day 2, it was definitely possible and likely that without my or J's intervention, you would have been lynched.

 

[Vinylic.]

Vinylic. - get in here and start talking. I really hate that I've had you as a big, fat NULL all game, and we're about to head into LyLo.

Assuming everyone had to shut up and only answer questions posed by you for the remainder of the game day, what would be your process for determining who the lynch should be?

I have no idea. I never thought about it being played this way. This entire game, I haven't voted anyone with my own reason or intent to lynch until today.

 

[Xatres]

Just hopped back to the end of Day 1. We had Kary and Ran on the Adum wagon. J had stated he wanted Adum or Xat dead, with a preference for Adum. RR had admitted he would settle for adum if there was no momentum for his lynchpool. And we know Ro eventually hopped on Adum's wagon, despite my offering Ran or myself as alternatives.

Ran was definitely in discussion, but most people other than Ro and RR didn't have him down as a first choice.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Momentum was on me with only a few hours to deadline. Ro had switched off.

J had also endorsed my lynch as a choice before hopping on to Ran.

 

[Xatres]

Basically I think you're both seeing this through your own lenses. You're both most likely town, so why don't you agree to keep arguing in the unlikely event Spak flips town.

 

[Xatres]

I have no idea. I never thought about it being played this way. This entire game, I haven't voted anyone with my own reason or intent to lynch until today.

Until today? I still don't see any posts in your history with you offering your own thoughts on your Spak vote. Please, give your reasoning. Why are you convinced to vote Spak? Give detail.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's what J thought about me vs Ro Xatres haha.

Idk I wanted to see marshy as town, his play's been irking me so much, and it's in a way I can easily see and I illustrated my annoyance to at the time.

Marshy's a lot of things and frustrating is definately one, but he's NEVER dense.

 

[Vinylic.]

Because of your intent to lynch Ro/Spak toDay. You've been going at it with wanting to lynch him, so I'm voting to see the flip. I'm doing so because of your commitment to let this day end with this outcome. I'm not comfortable voting for adumb just to then vote ro.

Or have you changed your mind?

 

[Xatres]

No, I have not changed my mind. I'm just waiting for Adum to be satisfied with other interactions enough to hammer.

 

[Vinylic.]

Well, cool. I'm not going to change my mind.

This reveal will be crucial on where you stand. It's either we win today or it's lylo tomorrow. Your concern about it shouldn't really even exist. I think you've been pretty confident about this. Do you believe you're 100% certain, or is your null read on me in the way of that?

 

[Xatres]

I'd say I'm 95% certain that the game is over as soon as Spak gets lynched. But it would be foolish to not consider the possibility that I'm wrong. Right now I'm seeing Adum and marshy as both town, with you, Vinyl, as null. Unlike Adum, I do think it's possible for scum!Vinyl to easily have faked the towntell at the end of Day 2.

Honestly, if I had been active Day 2, we wouldn't even be in this situation. Either Ro would have been lynched or you would have. Red Ryu basically got lynched by everyone's collective inactivity. I would have st least pushed for the more null player (you) to be lynched if I could get leverage on a Ro.

At the time J was my only other scumlean, but even I admitted the case against him was weak. And I doubt town would have gone for it if I had tried to move to him.

What I absolutely do not want, at this stage, is for Spak to get into LyLo. If I AM wrong, then town is boned.

 

[Xatres]

*couldn't get leverage for Ro

 

[adumbrodeus]

Spak got any last comments?

 

[Spak]

Spak got any last comments?

I was at work from 6 until 11:30, got home and packed so I can leave at 6 tomorrow morning. I have no comments as of yet because I don't have time to read, I'll look at stuff tomorrow if I'm still alive. Right now I'm just trying to pull a repo from my school's account onto my linux machine but the server might be down because scp is having some trouble. After that I'm off to bed and will probably be driving for multiple hours, then won't be online much because I'm visiting my grandmother and doing various things (changing light bulbs, helping her with electronics, checking up on Rhomtown, changing the flowers on Grandpa's grave for father's day, etc.). I'll do my best to respond to stuff in off-time, but I have no promises.

 

[Vinylic.]

I think it's fine since we were also pretty dead inside

 

[Vinylic.]

In this game. We we're so pretty dead in this game too.

 

[Vinylic.]

I need to stop.

More importantly, I'll be keeping in touch with the thoughts you posted should you flip town. As will everyone else who lived the next day. I have a lot of thinking to do for tomorrow.

 

[Spak]

Dad's driving the first little bit. Time for Mafia!

You are misrepresenting my argument. The point went beyond the fact that by scum!Xat volunteering himself he was putting both scummates at risk. The point was that scum!Xat could just have easily bussed Ran directly, which would have been easier and garnered more towncred if the lynch went through. Essentially, scum!Xat would be favoring a higher risk, lower reward option compared to just bussing outright.

I still think that it feels a little off since you seemed to emphasize the self sacrifice so much after the fact (it felt more like "hey, look at me being gung-ho for town" rather than just a genuine play). You also could've introduced yourself to the lunch pool to spread town votes and unfocus us, but that's admittedly unlikely. Your reasoning behind the play makes more sense now, but your emphasis of said play seems forced.

Again, you are applying faulty logic here. When you replaced in, I had just finished a big assault on Ro that I hoped would convince Vinyl to jump on her wagon, allowing Adum to give up his suicide plan. Your replacement destroyed all that. You say I was trying to "kill you off of the momentum from the replace," but the fact is that a replacement doesn't create momentum, it KILLS it. I was simply trying to keep the existing momentum going after Ro decided to screw us all over.

But you could've at least given me time to post stuff to be useful to town for after I die. We both know there isn't really anything I could've done to save this slot because there's a dozen questions that the previous holder left unanswered after leaving under pressure, so why not just give me a day to leave a paper trail?

The fact is that even I'm wrong about your slot, you are still the one who strategically needs to die today. With both Adum and myself hard scumreading you, leaving you alive makes it easy for scum to win in LyLo.

Unless one of you or Adum aren't still alive. I'm fairly confident in my Vinyl and Marshy reads, so if one of you two are gone, town likely wouldn't instantly lose LyLo if one of you guys instantly threw a vote on me. The problem is that I would have to convince Vinyl/Marshy that you're scum, which would be a tall order. Your logic requires that scum lies between you and Adum in that hypothetical town!Spak case, so why do you have Vinyl as your next in line for lynching?

So if you have replaced in a day sooner, who would you have NK'd, assuming Red Ryu still got lynched without Ro?

If I got replaced a day earlier, I still wouldn't have had a NK. Hypothetically, I would've killed you and called any accusations WIFOM. It would've been one less slot that wants me dead and I would've felt little to no consequences because I would've said that NK logic doesn't get far.

You aren't providing "more information" because literally nothing you say can be trusted.

Until the flip, which is mod-confirmed and it sounds like you'll inevitably get.

On your point about J being NK'd:

I completely agree that scum!Adum killing J would have been a strategic blunder.

In that scenario, you've got town!Xat and town!Ro going at each other, with J leaning on siding with Ro and scum!Adum siding with Xat. Either way XatvRo goes on D3, you get a town flip, which incriminates the other player. J would have helped push the kill in the Xat direction, which is all the better for scum!adum.

I really don't see how a J NK would work out in his favor at all, even in a wifom-y kind of way.

Scum!Adum killing J would work out fine because I'm not convinced anything bad will happen to you, even after my flip. Anyways, right now I'm arguing that you killed J, not Adum. You're in a comfy enough spot that while my flip could reflect poorly upon you, you'd still be higher on most people's town lists than Adum (and might be able to manipulate Vinyl).

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok then, thanks Spak for being a good sport in this incredibly unfair situation.

Hope Xatres is right about this being the end.

Vote: Spak

 

[adumbrodeus]

Maven89 that should be the hammer.

#HBC | marshy
Xatres
Vinylic.

Any twilight thoughts from you guys? I'm pretty sure I said my piece.

 

[Xatres]

I still think that it feels a little off since you seemed to emphasize the self sacrifice so much after the fact (it felt more like "hey, look at me being gung-ho for town" rather than just a genuine play). You also could've introduced yourself to the lunch pool to spread town votes and unfocus us, but that's admittedly unlikely. Your reasoning behind the play makes more sense now, but your emphasis of said play seems forced.

Let's take a look at it in context, shall we? The following is from my analysis of the Ro/Ran scumteam.

At first glance, this pairing seems like a poor scumteam. They sparred pretty much all of Day 1 and in the end, a wagon technically started by Ro against Ran ended in a successful lynch.

The issue, of course, is with Ran's play. Ran pushed the Marshy lynch to L-1, and when it lost momentum, rather than pushing the next wagon onto Ro, with whom he had been sparring constantly and for whom he had an easy ally and fallguy for a mislynch (Xatres), he instead goes after Adum.

Two different players (Xat and RR) had already noted that Ran not putting his money where his mouth is was odd.

Not only that, but even as the momentum for the Adum lynch was being cut off, Ro jumped in and voted Adum herself. When TWO perfectly good lynch candidates (Xat and Ran), with whom she had already publically called liars, were right there for the taking. Xatres had even offered himself up as a sacrificial lamb for town's benefit.

The emphasis here is not at all on Xat offering himself on the a lynch candidate. The only reason it is brought up is in the context of Ro's vote on Adum.

Ro had been riding Ran for awhile and had called Xat a liar directly. So why did Ro jump in to vote for Adum? Ran was at least an option for several people, and her second scumread, Xatres, had suggested his lynch could be beneficial for town (basically a lite-version of Adum's play D3).

The point wasn't "OMG, look how townie Xat's sacrifice is." The point was, "OMG, look at Ro ignoring her scumreads to go along with lynching Adum for no reason."

But you could've at least given me time to post stuff to be useful to town for after I die. We both know there isn't really anything I could've done to save this slot because there's a dozen questions that the previous holder left unanswered after leaving under pressure, so why not just give me a day to leave a paper trail?

This isn't a real response to my argument. Why, if I'm convinced your slot is scum, would I consider giving you the opportunity to break from Ro's play and try to clear yourself? I've discussed why this is a problem at length.

Unless one of you or Adum aren't still alive. I'm fairly confident in my Vinyl and Marshy reads, so if one of you two are gone, town likely wouldn't instantly lose LyLo if one of you guys instantly threw a vote on me. The problem is that I would have to convince Vinyl/Marshy that you're scum, which would be a tall order. Your logic requires that scum lies between you and Adum in that hypothetical town!Spak case, so why do you have Vinyl as your next in line for lynching?

Are you even listening? Assume XatvSpak is TvT for a second. We fail to lynch you and lynch Adum instead. Adum flips town. How do you really think the next day is going to go? Scum would be foolish to kill Xat or Spak when Xat has been so keen on lynching Spak's slot all game long. If XatvSpak is TvT, and we enter LyLo, town loses. The goes if by some miracle you pull off a Xat lynch today. If Marshy or Vinyl is scum, all they have to do is leave you and Adum alive for a victory.

Literally the only way you make it out of this game without being lynched is if you manage to lynch Xat or Adum today, and then NK the other in the night. But even then, if you are town, do you really see yourself not being lynched in LyLo? When BOTH threats to you are eliminated and both flip town?

Your lynch is the only one that can happen toDay if town has any chance of victory.

If I got replaced a day earlier, I still wouldn't have had a NK. Hypothetically, I would've killed you and called any accusations WIFOM. It would've been one less slot that wants me dead and I would've felt little to no consequences because I would've said that NK logic doesn't get far.

I doubt it. A town!Xat flip would be too condemning. Literally the only defense you or Ro has been able to come up with against my slot today is to call me scum back. Do you really think that on top of the mountain of evidence already against you, that my flipping town wouldn't make the rest of town instantly lynch you?

WIFOM objectives can only go so far. At the end of the day, strategy is strategy.

Until the flip, which is mod-confirmed and it sounds like you'll inevitably get.

Okay, and? You keep calling yourself confirmed town and referencing mod confirmation as if you an subliminally program everyone into believing you are town.

Given that you've come to literally the exact same reads as Ro, I seriously doubt you've added anything of substance by hanging around.

Scum!Adum killing J would work out fine because I'm not convinced anything bad will happen to you, even after my flip. Anyways, right now I'm arguing that you killed J, not Adum. You're in a comfy enough spot that while my flip could reflect poorly upon you, you'd still be higher on most people's town lists than Adum (and might be able to manipulate Vinyl).

I'm pretty sure if you flip town, Vinyl's going to be FoS the hell out of my slot in LyLo. He's trying to be cryptic about it, but it's pretty obvious that's what's going on in his head. Seriously, anyone who doesn't take a serious look at my slot after a town!Spak flip would be foolish.