Social Banjo-Kazooie Social Thread - Project Dream Come True!

[Nazyrus]

Are we just gonna stand here and ignore the fact that that almost at every moment in this thread there seems to be a spike in guest and user count that's far more thant it usually is?

Eh I guess it's trending with the stuff that lately happened, it's gonna calm down soon again lol, unless things get actually interesting.

 

[Bestmand902]

Asking anything at all of the smash fanbase seems to be asking too much tbh

Harsh, but true.

 

[BravadoMan_13]

Just because it's not stated doesn't mean it's not a rule. Things will NOT go down well if Sakurai comes out and says "western characters will never be playable in Smash." So of course he'll NEVER say this, but it shows. Actions speak louder than words. And BTW, K.Rool and Dark Samus are owned by Nintendo, they are not western characters(people keep saying they are.)

Diddy, K. Rool, and Dark Samus are Western characters. Diddy and K. Rool were created by Rare alongside the modern DK design and Dark Samus being developed by Retro Studios. Yes they are owned by Nintendo true, but it doesn't change the fact that they were made by western studios. I don't know why you're saying that they aren't western characters. Let's just hope that Banjo & Kazooie will be the 4th/5th western characters confirmed to the Smash roster.

 

[TheAnvil]

Nintendo ran a ballot for Smash content and didn't disclude people from voting for characters who originated in the west. It's just a bogus fan rule that will be broken eventually like all other fan rules.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think the "problems" with western owned characters are:

1. Like I said, it's just easier on Sakurai's part to negotiate with companies in Japan due to all of his personal connections to other game designers and composers within the Japanese gaming industry, as well as the whole language barrier thing. Diddy, K. Rool and Dark Samus are owned by Nintendo, so this isn't as big of an issue there.

2. There's just not many western franchises that really have much appeal in Japan. Series popular here like Halo, Rayman, Mortal Kombat, Doom, Tomb Raider, etc are practically non-existent in the east. They like Minecraft and have nostalgic affection towards Banjo and Crash, but that's kind of it.

 

[JamesDNaux]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Further iterating that what she said about Steve was not a joke/sarcasm.

"B-but Steve is an icon, he has merchandise! Any of you saying he isn't is just in denial!"

If one of the head honchos of Minecraft says he's just a generic avatar, you're the one in denial.

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

So there we go, she can't say either way.

But as JamesDNaux pointed out, the fact that she doesn't think Steve is a good pick is still something

 

[Deleted member]

Hey guys here’s polar panda response to the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Door Key Pig]

I think the "problems" with western owned characters are:

1. Like I said, it's just easier on Sakurai's part to negotiate with companies in Japan due to all of his personal connections to other game designers and composers within the Japanese gaming industry, as well as the whole language barrier thing. Diddy, K. Rool and Dark Samus are owned by Nintendo, so this isn't as big of an issue there.

2. There's just not many western franchises that really have much appeal in Japan. Series popular here like Halo, Rayman, Mortal Kombat, Doom, Tomb Raider, etc are practically non-existent in the east. They like Minecraft and have nostalgic affection towards Banjo and Crash, but that's kind of it.

Well said. If I were to list the "also Japan popular?" (though this could be inaccurate) Western-owned choices for DLC:

Banjo-Kazooie
Steve of Minecraft
Crash
Doom Slayer?
Skyrim guy?
Sans according to this one poll

Does the Mario crossover put the Rabbids in Japanese favour?

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

Billybo10K’s newest video is pretty interesting....maybe Erdrick isn’t as safe as we thought...

https://youtu.be/XWQ7ncUowbE

 

[Deleted member]

View attachment 205306

So there we go, she can't say either way.

But as JamesDNaux pointed out, the fact that she doesn't think Steve is a good pick is still something

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Hello?
MonkeyDLenny

 

[hinode]

I think the "problems" with western owned characters are:

1. Like I said, it's just easier on Sakurai's part to negotiate with companies in Japan due to all of his personal connections to other game designers and composers within the Japanese gaming industry, as well as the whole language barrier thing. Diddy, K. Rool and Dark Samus are owned by Nintendo, so this isn't as big of an issue there.

2. There's just not many western franchises that really have much appeal in Japan. Series popular here like Halo, Rayman, Mortal Kombat, Doom, Tomb Raider, etc are practically non-existent in the east. They like Minecraft and have nostalgic affection towards Banjo and Crash, but that's kind of it.

I'd say the other issue (and probably the biggest one) is that historically the third parties who have been most popular on Nintendo consoles have been mostly Japanese ones. Capcom, Konami, Namco, Square, and Enix were responsible for most of the biggest third party games on NES and SNES, especially the exclusive titles. Sega went from being Nintendo's biggest rival to one of Nintendo's biggest third party publishers after they went third party. It makes perfect sense that Nintendo would go for the likes of Mega Man, Sonic, and Castlevania for third party characters, because Nintendo fans care about those franchises the most, even if the likes of Half-Life, Warcraft, Halo, and Grand Theft Auto have been bigger sellers and more historically important amongst the general gaming community.

The big asterisk here is Rare. They certainly qualify in terms of popularity with Nintendo's base, but for most of their history they technically haven't operated as a third party. From DKC onwards, Nintendo owned a stake in Rare, published most of their games, and treated them as a foreign equivalent of someone like HAL or Intelligent Systems. Then Microsoft purchased all of Rare, and they became a first party deveoper for Xbox. If all the rumors are correct, then Rare will be a real third party developer for Nintendo platforms for the first time since the Battletoads days.

 

[MissingGlitch]

I feel like if Erdrick doesn't make it in it will turn all smash speculation upside down. People have banked on him as confirmed since even before the fighter pass. That would definitely stir the pot that's for sure.

People have put their whole reputations on the line because of Steve and Erdrick. **** is gonna go down if neither of them get in.

 

[Nazyrus]

Billybo10K’s newest video is pretty interesting....maybe Erdrick isn’t as safe as we thought...

https://youtu.be/XWQ7ncUowbE

Yeah I never thought he was. Simply because leakbait is leakbait and there is no real reason to believe any of the SE list would be real, specially with how good SE is with leakbait, they wouldn't risk a real name like that. And many ppl hearing erdrick just means many people are getting leakbaited, imo. There is really nohing solid going for any of the SE list characters.

 

[SKX31]

Well said. If I were to list the "also Japan popular?" (though this could be inaccurate) Western-owned choices for DLC:

Banjo-Kazooie
Steve of Minecraft
Crash
Doom Slayer?
Skyrim guy?
Sans according to this one poll

Does the Mario crossover put the Rabbids in Japanese favour?

Mortal Kombat has a pretty decent following in Japan despite CEVO banning it currently (Youtube searches of Mortal Kombat in Japanese turns out some videos that surpass the 1 million mark). Rockstar games like GTA and RDR also have left a mark there, with GTA V selling pretty well there (although not expecting them in Smash any time soon). Valve also has a presence there, having cooperated with Taito on a little something back in 2006:

Yea, TIL that there's a Half Life 2 arcade game in Japan. Not sure how well it did, but Valve have been receptive to one of their characters being in Smash (IIRC). I could see Gordon Freeman being a dark horse candidate for Smash (if he gets a Nintendo port or appearance, there's even decent cause to add him in). Sakurai likes Half Life 2, the series laid the groundwork for not only future FPS games but also revolutionized physics in video games (the Havok engine debuted here, and Gordon got the Gravity Gun in 2) - its no wonder that Half Life 3 became such a short hand and meme for "Game that's never going to be done".

 

[Deleted member]

Conspiracy theory here:
What if “Brave” is a DQ hero who has Erdrick as an alt, and Square is letting the name of Erdrick getting spread so people believe the character is him when in reality he is an alt?

I personally would wish to see Erdrick being the main character with other DQ heroes being the alts (seems reasonable since Erdrick is the most popular hero in Japan), but I like to consider as many scenarios as possible to not get any hopes up.

 

[Deleted member]

Conspiracy theory here:
What if “Brave” is a DQ hero who has Erdrick as an alt, and Square is letting the name of Erdrick getting spread so people believe the character is him when in reality he is an alt?

I personally would wish to see Erdrick being the main character with other DQ heroes being the alts (seems reasonable since Erdrick is the most popular hero in Japan), but I like to consider as many scenarios as possible to not get any hopes up.

If that were the case

Would that destroy credibility or nah?

 

[Deleted member]

If that were the case

Would that destroy credibility or nah?

Not really.
We would be getting Erdrick, but not with him being the main base of the character.

 

[Llort A. Ton]

2. There's just not many western franchises that really have much appeal in Japan. Series popular here like Halo, Rayman, Mortal Kombat, Doom, Tomb Raider, etc are practically non-existent in the east. They like Minecraft and have nostalgic affection towards Banjo and Crash, but that's kind of it.

This is a legitimate point. I do still believe that if we end up getting a Dragon Quest character that has next to no appeal here in the west, then it would be fair to see a western character that appeals to the west. We make up a huge chunk of the Smash playerbase, so characters should still make a bit of sense to us. The only remaining long standing japanese series that dont have characters yet and are also popular/recognizable in the west are Kingdom Hearts, Tekken, Souls, Ace Attorney, Resident Evil, Devil May Cry, Monster Hunter, retro stuff like Contra and maybe a couple more Im forgetting. The well is going to dry up sooner or later, and I think theyre going to have to strike a balance of popular westerners and japanese characters. I think most would be ok with some weird japanese picks like Yokai Watch, Touhou or Dragon Quest as long as we get some faces that are familliar to us like Banjo, Doom, Crash etc.

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

2. There's just not many western franchises that really have much appeal in Japan. Series popular here like Halo, Rayman, Mortal Kombat, Doom, Tomb Raider, etc are practically non-existent in the east. They like Minecraft and have nostalgic affection towards Banjo and Crash, but that's kind of it.

Off topic, but I've always been surprised that Japan loves Crash so much, not that that's a bad thing mind you. Just seems so interesting to me over what about Crash appeals to a Japanese audience

 

[Deleted member]

Off topic, but I've always been surprised that Japan loves Crash so much, not that that's a bad thing mind you. Just seems so interesting to me over what about Crash appeals to a Japanese audience

The thing with Crash is that they changed him to fit Japanese Audiences there. If Crash's localization in Japan had been 1 to 1 to what he was in the US, he probably wouldn't have took off.

Just to get you an example as to how Crash was marketed in Japan:

Basically they made him more "cute" and made the silly bandicoot even sillier.

Banjo's Japanese commerical and design is nowhere as different from his western counterpart as Crash's, but that's probably because Banjo's look is already more appealing to japanese audiences (at least compared to western Crash):

 

[N3ON]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Further iterating that what she said about Steve was not a joke/sarcasm.

"B-but Steve is an icon, he has merchandise! Any of you saying he isn't is just in denial!"

If one of the head honchos of Minecraft says he's just a generic avatar, you're the one in denial.

Uh huh... well, forgive me, but this almost seems like cherrypicking the part of her opinion that suits an anti-Steve rhetoric. Lest you can stand behind her entire sentiment, whereby you guys are actually all in favour of getting a NPC Minecraft skeleton grunt over the playable character, it seems a rather misrepresentative argument.

It's pretty much: "I think Steve is too generic, let's get the skeleton instead."

If you're aiming to show his lack of pedigree shouldn't grant him playability, perhaps don't use the person vouching for a skeleton as lead evidence.

Now maybe this would be semi-effective for invalidating the argument that Steve isn't an avatar, but I don't think any pro-Steve people are actually arguing that. Obviously he's an avatar, and if he ever got in, he wouldn't be the first.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Billybo10K’s newest video is pretty interesting....maybe Erdrick isn’t as safe as we thought...

https://youtu.be/XWQ7ncUowbE

Not to attack Billy, but his rates were never super accurate. Not to say his ratings were wrong, but he rated certain characters that didn't get in higher than ones that actually got in. He rated K. Rool at 50% percent before his reveal while he rated Isaac at 60% percent overlooking the fact that K. Rool had more evidence going for him doing better on the Smash Ballot than Isaac did.

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

Why people want Banjo-Kazooie in Smash Bros: A thread pic.twitter.com/xqHg8I1vyj

— Monkey D. Lenny | Vtuber (@MonkeyDLenny) April 6, 2019

Tried to make a thread summarizing why theres a demand for the duo, if I wasnt limited to my phone I probably would have gone deeper into it

 

[JamesDNaux]

It's pretty much: "I think Steve is too generic, let's get the skeleton instead."

More like "even a generic enemy is less generic and more recognized than Steve."

Which is blatantly true about the Creepers, at least.

 

[Lycan Rex]

View attachment 205306

So there we go, she can't say either way.

But as JamesDNaux pointed out, the fact that she doesn't think Steve is a good pick is still something

So is Steve still in the running if she can't say?

 

[Organization XIII]

So is Steve still in the running if she can't say?

Definitively he is still in the running but that's usually true about everything until Saks himself decides we've waited enough, however, whether you think Steve is still happening after this is up to you.

 

[KingMinjo91]

Not to attack Billy, but his rates were never super accurate. Not to say his ratings were wrong, but he rated certain characters that didn't get in higher than ones that actually got in. He rated K. Rool at 50% percent before his reveal while he rated Isaac at 60% percent overlooking the fact that K. Rool had more evidence going for him doing better on the Smash Ballot than Isaac did.

To be fair, he's just sharing arguments made by another person in that video.

 

[MAtgSy]

I half suspect it won't be "Steve" but "Minecrafter", who comes with a bunch of alternate character skins.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I half suspect it won't be "Steve" but "Minecrafter", who comes with a bunch of alternate character skins.

This makes sense. Villager and Inkling use default skins too, but when you customize them, they cannot stop being Villagers and Inklings. Your Minecraft avatar on the other hand can stop being Steve/Alex.

 

[Organization XIII]

Not to attack Billy, but his rates were never super accurate. Not to say his ratings were wrong, but he rated certain characters that didn't get in higher than ones that actually got in. He rated K. Rool at 50% percent before his reveal while he rated Isaac at 60% percent overlooking the fact that K. Rool had more evidence going for him doing better on the Smash Ballot than Isaac did.

To be fair originally he had Isaac lower than K Rool. He did rerate Isaac later and increased his chances which made sense as it was after K Rool's reveal and the ballot looked like a major influence on who we'd get at the time and Isaac's popularity was up there with the two reptiles'. Little did we know all the ballot choices were already out of the way.

 

[Deleted member]

While Steve seems to still be in the running banjo is starting to get more likely

 

[MissingGlitch]

Making more memes to add to people's Banjo meme folders.

I've come to make an announcement.

 

[volbound1700]

They're quickly running out of big Japanese 3rd Party characters. Aside from Capcom there's nothing left assuming Dragon Quest gets in.

1. Bass (Megaman)
2. Tails
3. Knuckles
4. Shadow
5. Dig Dug
6. Erdrick
7. Slime
8. Sora

They all say hi. I am probably leaving some off as well. There is also additional Nintendo IP to dig into. I would love to see Western Franchises like Banjo-Kazooie, Rayman, Crash Bandicoot, etc. make it in.

 

[ryuu seika]

Which is blatantly true about the Creepers, at least.

The Creeper is not character material but it's definitely worthy assist trophy fodder.

 

[volbound1700]

Well said. If I were to list the "also Japan popular?" (though this could be inaccurate) Western-owned choices for DLC:

Banjo-Kazooie
Steve of Minecraft
Crash
Doom Slayer?
Skyrim guy?
Sans according to this one poll

Does the Mario crossover put the Rabbids in Japanese favour?

Isn't Rayman popular in Japan as well?

 

[ryuu seika]

1. Bass (Megaman)
2. Tails
3. Knuckles
4. Shadow
5. Dig Dug
6. Erdrick
7. Slime
8. Sora

That's 3 new franchises and you can't even count Bass because Megaman is owned by Capcom, who the previous poster said to exclude.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Why people want Banjo-Kazooie in Smash Bros: A thread pic.twitter.com/xqHg8I1vyj

— Monkey D. Lenny | Vtuber (@MonkeyDLenny) April 6, 2019

Tried to make a thread summarizing why theres a demand for the duo, if I wasnt limited to my phone I probably would have gone deeper into it

That's a great summary of how great it would be for Banjo & Kazooie in Smash. For me, it comes down to three factors:

1) Unique abilities: I have no clue why some would say Banjo & Kazooie don't offer anything new, as they are a duo where each character offers their own unique moves. The games have many hallmarks, but one that is often overlooked is the variety of moves Banjo & Kazooie have across the two main games. Typical moves you'd expect from a platforming character: moves akin to punching, butt stomp, etc. In addition, Kazooie gives the duo both flight and projectiles. The latter allows for even more of a variety if taking Tooie into account, from elemental projectiles, to clockwork Kazooie eggs that can act like Bowser Jr's mechakoopas. Kazooie's Talon Trot can give them speed, while her Flap Flip or shock spring integration can give them height. If anything, there's so much to choose from, Banjo & Kazooie would likely have to be dialed down to be well balanced. You could make five different Smash characters by mix and matching only the moves in their games, without having to use any artistic liberties to make them viable. You don't have to bend over backwards to come up with a viable moveset.

2) Characters/stages/music: In addition to what makes them great as characters, there's a variety of quirky allies and villains that would have made great assists, bosses and cameos. Though, that's less relevant when it comes to DLC. Their levels are so full of character with tons of variety, any of them would make a great stage--typical elemental levels mixed alongside levels with unique concepts (Clanker's Cavern has you go into a mechanical shark, Click Clock Wood has 4 different versions of the stage for each season). And, of course, Banjo & Kazooie's strong suit, it's amazing soundtrack composed by the legendary Grant Kirkhope. Any of their songs would be awesome to include.

3) Popularity/Relevancy/Legacy: Their irrelevancy is often used as a strike against them, except their popularity and legacy overwhelms that. Banjo & Kazooie are typically at the top of the polls, in the West and the East, and have been requested since Melee. Back then, Sakurai called their inclusion, along with 007, "obvious", and only cited legal issues as their problem--an issue that may not be problematic nowadays. Back then, Banjo & Kazooie was one of the top platforming games, their names alongside Mario, Donkey Kong and Link. If they were still owned by Nintendo, their inclusion into Smash would have been guaranteed--if assuming the legal barriers are no longer an issue, there's no reason that would have changed. If anything's changed, their absence from Nintendo has only increased people's desires for Banjo & Kazooie, a story of missed opportunities and redemption. So much so, former Rare devs kickstarted a game inspired by Banjo & Kazooie, setting records in the process. That is irrespective of what you thought of the quality of Yooka-Laylee--there was significant demand, despite Banjo & Kazooie's IP holder's reluctance to do anything with them. Are they as iconic as Mega Man and Pac-Man? No, but more people know of them than most characters requested, or that made it into Smash. Being a Microsoft collaboration of former Nintendo characters enhances the hype.

For me, Banjo & Kazooie is not strictly about nostalgia, despite it being a factor, it's because they're the whole package.

 

[volbound1700]

Watch Sakurai fool us all and put in Yooka-Laylee over Banjo.

 

[Organization XIII]

Watch Sakurai fool us all and put in Yooka-Laylee over Banjo.

If it also kicked off a YK2 announcement I'd be happy with that.