Social Banjo-Kazooie Social Thread - Project Dream Come True!

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I feel like making a "Why steve doesn't work " thread will come off as bashing where it's just a way for people to talk about it. I'm about done talking about him so I'm showing this to segway into something more thread appropriate.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BluePaintSea/status/1043956486358138881


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It's been an actual debate of how to make Steve work well in Smash anyway. Valid reactions to how characters are represented isn't bashing in itself, to note. But yeah, if you do have valid stuff to say, it should go in the regular Steve support thread. Maybe people will see what you mean or convince you otherwise. Who knows. It's always good to have varying opinions in order to properly discuss what characters are like. For instance, I'm still a bit disappointed in Isabelle's inclusion, mainly due to her having little unique points beyond being Villager 2.0. Having Villager's abilities beyond Pocket at most is not what she's known for. So it feels a bit half-assed of an inclusion to me. That said, they still got her personality right while using stuff from Amiibo Festival, the only game to show her being fine with being in competition, which is why she'd be in a fighting game without feeling like going against her personality

Cause I can honestly say you were in no way bashing him but explaining why you don't agree with certain comparisons. The opposite of support is bashing. But it doesn't mean anyone who doesn't support a character is a basher. I hope you get what I mean, though.

 

[Voe]

I feel like making a "Why steve doesn't work " thread will come off as bashing where it's just a way for people to talk about it. I'm about done talking about him so I'm showing this to segway into something more thread appropriate.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BluePaintSea/status/1043956486358138881


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BluePaintSea draws a pretty damn good bear and birb.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I feel like making a "Why steve doesn't work " thread will come off as bashing where it's just a way for people to talk about it. I'm about done talking about him so I'm showing this to segway into something more thread appropriate.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BluePaintSea/status/1043956486358138881


View attachment 195701

If I didn't know any better, I would say that these look like actual official design concepts. Also, picking the washer transformation as the FS is a novel idea.

 

[TheZoologist]

I feel like making a "Why steve doesn't work " thread will come off as bashing where it's just a way for people to talk about it. I'm about done talking about him so I'm showing this to segway into something more thread appropriate.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BluePaintSea/status/1043956486358138881


View attachment 195701

Man these concepts are gorgeous!!!

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I've been researching a lot about Banjo and Conker and I've found some recent, conflicting information from Rare and I'm not sure if this has been discussed here yet. This is everything I found:

Returning to old franchises would be

"The worst thing Rare could do. I don't think it's OK to just make the same game that people love before but with up-to-date graphics, audio and all those things. Just making them again with whatever technologies available today - that's not Rare. I think that what Rare is, is doing the kind of games that only Rare would do.

Like, no one else would go make Sea of Thieves in the way we're making Sea of Thieves, and I think unless you've got an absolutely killer, amazing idea for how you would bring maybe an existing IP or maybe one of those franchises and do something new with it from a gameplay paradigm or scenario or something that could actually be genuinely different and innovative, I don't think you just re-do them. I hink that would be the worst thing for Rare to do, honestly.

If I went and said to Rare, 'hey, go remake all the stuff that was kind of successful at the time but make it up-to-date,' I don't think it would be good and I don't think it would be relevant, and I don't think people would really want it. I think they might think they do, but I don't think they would." - Craig Duncan, Sept. 2017

However, in March 2018, Craig Duncan had something different to say, including finding "the right team" and "right creativity" for reviving old IPs.

"Rare has this 32-year back catalog of heritage and IP, and while I wouldn't say we were Disney or even Nintendo or SEGA or any of the other kind of long-term IP stalwarts in our business, people ask us to use stuff. It's absolutely not out of the realm of possibility, but not only does the 'why' have to be right, but the team, and the people, and 'who' have to be right. Rare is the guardian of Rare's IP. Who knows what the future holds?" - Craig Duncan, March 2018

So it seems like if we want new Banjo and Conker games, not only do we have to make Rare more aware of it, but a different company needs to have a good idea for it. Last we heard, Craig Duncan, the head of Rare, said that he thinks we want a new game but we don't actually. We have to change that mindset because I don't think that's necessarily true. But even if we do garner enough support for new games, Rare still might not do anything because they haven't had any good ideas for the franchises, so it all relies on another company having a new and innovative vision for the projects. So we need:

1. More support
2. A dedicated 3rd party outside of Rare

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've been researching a lot about Banjo and Conker and I've found some recent, conflicting information from Rare and I'm not sure if this has been discussed here yet. This is everything I found:

Returning to old franchises would be

"The worst thing Rare could do. I don't think it's OK to just make the same game that people love before but with up-to-date graphics, audio and all those things. Just making them again with whatever technologies available today - that's not Rare. I think that what Rare is, is doing the kind of games that only Rare would do.

Like, no one else would go make Sea of Thieves in the way we're making Sea of Thieves, and I think unless you've got an absolutely killer, amazing idea for how you would bring maybe an existing IP or maybe one of those franchises and do something new with it from a gameplay paradigm or scenario or something that could actually be genuinely different and innovative, I don't think you just re-do them. I hink that would be the worst thing for Rare to do, honestly.

If I went and said to Rare, 'hey, go remake all the stuff that was kind of successful at the time but make it up-to-date,' I don't think it would be good and I don't think it would be relevant, and I don't think people would really want it. I think they might think they do, but I don't think they would." - Craig Duncan, Sept. 2017

However, in March 2018, Craig Duncan had something different to say, including finding "the right team" and "right creativity" for reviving old IPs.

"Rare has this 32-year back catalog of heritage and IP, and while I wouldn't say we were Disney or even Nintendo or SEGA or any of the other kind of long-term IP stalwarts in our business, people ask us to use stuff. It's absolutely not out of the realm of possibility, but not only does the 'why' have to be right, but the team, and the people, and 'who' have to be right. Rare is the guardian of Rare's IP. Who knows what the future holds?" - Craig Duncan, March 2018

So it seems like if we want new Banjo and Conker games, not only do we have to make Rare more aware of it, but a different company needs to have a good idea for it. Last we heard, Craig Duncan, the head of Rare, said that he thinks we want a new game but we don't actually. We have to change that mindset because I don't think that's necessarily true. But even if we do garner enough support for new games, Rare still might not do anything because they haven't had any good ideas for the franchises, so it all relies on another company having a new and innovative vision for the projects. So we need:

1. More support
2. A dedicated 3rd party outside of Rare

There's also the most important factor; Rare is owned by Microsoft. They need to okay the idea too. Thankfully Phil Spencer appears to be a fan of Rare products in itself, so that can be the perfect influence to help~

 

[TheBeastHimself]

There's also the most important factor; Rare is owned by Microsoft. They need to okay the idea too. Thankfully Phil Spencer appears to be a fan of Rare products in itself, so that can be the perfect influence to help~

In my opinion if nothing comes out of this within 5 or more years, I'm just going to assume that all of this is irrelevant and the IPs won't get revived. This isn't the first time Rare has spoken up about their old franchises and nothing ever happened then, and if Phil Spencer's support also can't get us new content within a reasonable amount of time, I think I'm just going to lose hope. As a company in 2019, Rare has expressed through numerous actions that they have no interest in any of their old IPs, and only want to move forward with new games. Hell, the new figurines coming out for Banjo and Conker might just be a way of banking on nostalgia and not necessarily indicating anything.

Another thing, we don't even know what Rare would qualify as "innovative" when talking about lending their IPs to other companies. That right there is basically the final nail in the coffin to anyone wanting a new Banjo game that's like the old ones. When old IPs return, they must be new and different, straight out of the mouth of the studio director. That perfectly fits the description of Nuts & Bolts, so it seems their mentality hasn't changed after a decade. So even if Banjo miraculously ended up with his old developers at Playtonic, Rare won't accept any project unless it's different enough from Banjo-Kazooie and Tooie. All around, it just seems like bad news.

 

[Deleted member]

I've been researching a lot about Banjo and Conker and I've found some recent, conflicting information from Rare and I'm not sure if this has been discussed here yet. This is everything I found:

Returning to old franchises would be

"The worst thing Rare could do. I don't think it's OK to just make the same game that people love before but with up-to-date graphics, audio and all those things. Just making them again with whatever technologies available today - that's not Rare. I think that what Rare is, is doing the kind of games that only Rare would do.

Like, no one else would go make Sea of Thieves in the way we're making Sea of Thieves, and I think unless you've got an absolutely killer, amazing idea for how you would bring maybe an existing IP or maybe one of those franchises and do something new with it from a gameplay paradigm or scenario or something that could actually be genuinely different and innovative, I don't think you just re-do them. I hink that would be the worst thing for Rare to do, honestly.

If I went and said to Rare, 'hey, go remake all the stuff that was kind of successful at the time but make it up-to-date,' I don't think it would be good and I don't think it would be relevant, and I don't think people would really want it. I think they might think they do, but I don't think they would." - Craig Duncan, Sept. 2017

If this was true in the slightest, Battle Toads and Killer Instinct would have never been revived.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

If this was true in the slightest, Battle Toads and Killer Instinct would have never been revived.

I was never really a fan of either series, are the revived games similar to the old ones? Because if so I wonder what's happening with Banjo.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I was never really a fan of either series, are the revived games similar to the old ones? Because if so I wonder what's happening with Banjo.

Killer Instinct is similar in mechanics but they revised the movesets so they feel way more different. Whereas many characters had a lot of similarities due to shotoclone playstyle, it got heavily changed up. So Fulgore, B. Orchid, and Jago play quite differently now instead of being variations of each other.

I can't say if the new Battletoads is different, but it barely got a preview. I didn't play N&B, so I don't know how heavily different it is from B-K 1 and 2.

 

[volbound1700]

Yeah, pretty much. B-K was about as big as Earthworm Jim; decently big, but not nearly big enough to have the layman on the street immediately recognize what you're talking about when you bring up their name.

Also, another comparison in regards to lesser icons, take Travis Touchdown; he's a noteworthy indie character from cult director Goichi Suda. His series has three games now, does that make him recognizable to most people? Of course not, since his series hasn't made much of an impact even back in the day.

That being said, it's important that your characters' games are good enough to leave an impression and keep their series going despite the lack of innovation, and not just be forgotten about like many an imitator. I mean, look at Mega Man, most entries are as derivative as they come, but they still kept that series alive for a time. Innovation can matter, but so does a formula that works.

Can't we say the same thing about Joker? I was in line to buy Smash Ultimate when someone mentioned Joker and I immediately thought of the villain from batman. I had never heard of the guy.

Sad thing is we have ATs (Shadow, Bomberman, etc.) that are more well known and impactful than Joker or some of the characters being discussed for the DLC pack.

 

[Zipzter]

Killer Instinct is similar in mechanics but they revised the movesets so they feel way more different. Whereas many characters had a lot of similarities due to shotoclone playstyle, it got heavily changed up. So Fulgore, B. Orchid, and Jago play quite differently now instead of being variations of each other.

I can't say if the new Battletoads is different, but it barely got a preview. I didn't play N&B, so I don't know how heavily different it is from B-K 1 and 2.

How different? It's quite literally 100% different, save for slapping Banjo-Kazooie in as the main characters. ^_^'

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Can't we say the same thing about Joker? I was in line to buy Smash Ultimate when someone mentioned Joker and I immediately thought of the villain from batman. I had never heard of the guy.

Sad thing is we have ATs (Shadow, Bomberman, etc.) that are more well known and impactful than Joker or some of the characters being discussed for the DLC pack.

I see a lot of people complain about the usual fan request characters that became Assist Trophies or Spirits, But their exclusions don't even compare to Bomberman getting the biggest "Screw you" out of all of them considering the franchise's legacy and is already 35 years old, and is probably the last of the big early 80's gaming icons/mascots (Mario, Donkey Kong, Pac-Man and Mega Man) left to make it into Smash.

 

[GrungeMan]

I see a lot of people complain about the usual fan request characters that became Assist Trophies or Spirits, But their exclusions don't even compare to Bomberman getting the biggest "Screw you" out of all of them considering the franchise's legacy and is already 35 years old, and is probably the last of the big early 80's gaming icons/mascots (Mario, Donkey Kong, Pac-Man and Mega Man) left to make it into Smash.

Don't forget Frogger, who doesn't even appear in smash in any capacity.

 

[SuperiorYoshi87]

Just a random thought I had... wanted to share...

I saw an article the other day saying that DLC characters won't be getting Palutena's guidance entries. Yet Pirahna Plant has one... more evidence that PP was planned to be in the base game but was moved to DLC for some reason... Rare games on the cartridge...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

How different? It's quite literally 100% different, save for slapping Banjo-Kazooie in as the main characters. ^_^'

That doesn't really tell me anything useful of how it's different. How is it different as a genre? What gameplay style is omitted? Does it lack every old ability? It clearly revolves around collecting things, as that's part of the gameplay too. A big thing that was important to B-K as a series. The designs are definitely different, but you can still clearly tell they're the characters as well. It feels like looking at Young Link and Toon Link. Same basic character, just variant designs. That said, I do agree that the classic design is wayyyyyyyy better. They look really bleh to me in N&B.

Like, you can say how easily different Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine are. Mario can longer physically attack and must his F.L.U.D.D. Yoshi is actually usable, but isn't the previous versions either, as they die in water for some reason, being unique variants of the species, probably influenced by the areas around Sunshine(which maybe they couldn't adapt to the type of water used? No proper explanation is given, really. They specifically run on Juice too, compared to not needing any of that in other games. So the idea they're a subspecies has some merit, just no legitimate explanation to why).

Just a random thought I had... wanted to share...

I saw an article the other day saying that DLC characters won't be getting Palutena's guidance entries. Yet Pirahna Plant has one... more evidence that PP was planned to be in the base game but was moved to DLC for some reason... Rare games on the cartridge...

...Those Rareware games(that is, the names only) are owned by Nintendo. It's far more likely that they intended to have content from it, but found out after attempting to add it that Nintendo owned nothing beyond the names and licensing would make it next to impossible. That or Microsoft said no when they attempted to. The file names, however, were left in because Nintendo owns the copyright names alone. So... why even remove them? The files are inaccessible to regular players and there is no copyright infringement either. They aren't using the IP.

The best it means is that they attempted to get Microsoft to license stuff and failed to do so for base game. The worst case scenario is that the employees screwed up and didn't do all their research. I mean, considering bad translations we get all the time, this isn't that hard to believe. Plus, the employees, not Sakurai, decided on a lot of Spirits. So them attempting to go for Rareware spirits they thought Nintendo owned makes perfect sense. Rare is a huge part of Nintendo's history after all.

-----------------

As for the Bomberman thing, I love he's an AT. It's a major gameplay role meant for those who couldn't make it in as playable. Next best thing and nothing but giving him some major due, really. He deserved to be in the game among Konami's icons. The fact Frogger isn't is pretty sad, though. Maybe the team behind the Spirits couldn't think of anything to apply as an effect? Maybe they weren't fans? Who knows. I honestly wish we had more content from the Bandai side of things, and we barely have Namco content that isn't just Arcade stuff. I feel like the 3rd party companies could be more varied among the Spirits alone. The lack of any different Final Fantasy spirits(though I'm happy Mallow got one along with Geno) sucks, or other Square-Enix ones in general. There's so much potential. But that's just how licensing is. Can only get so far. People want money for their IP usage. How strange.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Don't forget Frogger, who doesn't even appear in smash in any capacity.

What's funny is I always thought about him too when I think of 80's gaming mascots , But this time I forgot about him. But it's a shame and surprising he has had no Smash appearences what so ever either.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Who owns Frogger?

 

[weallfloatdownhere7]

That doesn't really tell me anything useful of how it's different. How is it different as a genre? What gameplay style is omitted? Does it lack every old ability? It clearly revolves around collecting things, as that's part of the gameplay too. A big thing that was important to B-K as a series. The designs are definitely different, but you can still clearly tell they're the characters as well. It feels like looking at Young Link and Toon Link. Same basic character, just variant designs. That said, I do agree that the classic design is wayyyyyyyy better. They look really bleh to me in N&B.

Like, you can say how easily different Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine are. Mario can longer physically attack and must his F.L.U.D.D. Yoshi is actually usable, but isn't the previous versions either, as they die in water for some reason, being unique variants of the species, probably influenced by the areas around Sunshine(which maybe they couldn't adapt to the type of water used? No proper explanation is given, really. They specifically run on Juice too, compared to not needing any of that in other games. So the idea they're a subspecies has some merit, just no legitimate explanation to why).


...Those Rareware games(that is, the names only) are owned by Nintendo. It's far more likely that they intended to have content from it, but found out after attempting to add it that Nintendo owned nothing beyond the names and licensing would make it next to impossible. That or Microsoft said no when they attempted to. The file names, however, were left in because Nintendo owns the copyright names alone. So... why even remove them? The files are inaccessible to regular players and there is no copyright infringement either. They aren't using the IP.

The best it means is that they attempted to get Microsoft to license stuff and failed to do so for base game. The worst case scenario is that the employees screwed up and didn't do all their research. I mean, considering bad translations we get all the time, this isn't that hard to believe. Plus, the employees, not Sakurai, decided on a lot of Spirits. So them attempting to go for Rareware spirits they thought Nintendo owned makes perfect sense. Rare is a huge part of Nintendo's history after all.

I have a hard time believing the whole “they didn’t know!/it was just an accident!” argument regarding the Rare spirits. There’s never been any confusion in any previous Smash game about who owns what between Rare and Nintendo. Like you said, Rare is an important part of Nintendo’s history, so it’s not like it would be an easy mistake to make. Especially when there was a special team put together specifically for Spirits.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Who owns Frogger?

Konami. Sort of odd there's nothing with Frogger considering Snake is in the game. I like Frogger, I'd at least would have liked to see a spirit.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I have a hard time believing the whole “they didn’t know!/it was just an accident!” argument regarding the Rare spirits. There’s never been any confusion in any previous Smash game about who owns what between Rare and Nintendo. Like you said, Rare is an important part of Nintendo’s history, so it’s not like it would be an easy mistake to make. Especially when there was a special team put together specifically for Spirits

You forgot the part where Sakurai picked everything beforehand. His employees specifically picked the Spirits, not Sakurai. They are not him. The confusion exists due to a simple error. There was also never any case of attempting to use those Rare assets in previous games. They had different developments, as Sakurai in previous games chose just about everything instead of letting his team doing a lot of that kind of work.

Konami. Sort of odd there's nothing with Frogger considering Snake is in the game. I like Frogger, I'd at least would have liked to see a spirit.

Like I said before, Sakurai's team chose the spirits. This alone might be why he wasn't at least a spirit. For all we know, Konami did say no. Thinking about it, is there any Konami arcade stuff in Smash to begin with? Isn't it just all console stuff instead?

 

[Turb0k]

Konami. Sort of odd there's nothing with Frogger considering Snake is in the game. I like Frogger, I'd at least would have liked to see a spirit.

Frogger should've been a sprirt at least. His Spirit Battle could've been a Green on Port Town Aero Drive

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Like I said before, Sakurai's team chose the spirits. This alone might be why he wasn't at least a spirit. For all we know, Konami did say no. Thinking about it, is there any Konami arcade stuff in Smash to begin with? Isn't it just all console stuff instead?

Yeah I'm pretty sure it is all just console stuff. I just found it sort of weird because Frogger is an iconic part of the arcade era and Smash is collaborating with their company, and spirits has a huge emphasis on representing gaming history. But who knows what happened. I don't play Konami games enough to be knowledgeable about their business practices, nor do I know how Sakurai's team chose spirits.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah I'm pretty sure it is all just console stuff. I just found it sort of weird because Frogger is an iconic part of the arcade era and Smash is collaborating with their company, and spirits has a huge emphasis on representing gaming history. But who knows what happened. I don't play Konami games enough to be knowledgeable about their business practices, nor do I know how Sakurai's team chose spirits.

My guess is if Sakurai was deciding the Spirits, Frogger would be in. If you think about it, Namco-Bandai is pretty much all Namco Arcade stuff(this includes the Heihachi sprite. Tekken was first in the arcade, like many fighting games. Console stuff was ported later, often for the better. Like Killer Instinct Gold on the 64 was a vast improvement in options over the arcade version of Killer Instinct II).

 

[weallfloatdownhere7]

You forgot the part where Sakurai picked everything beforehand. His employees specifically picked the Spirits, not Sakurai. They are not him. The confusion exists due to a simple error. There was also never any case of attempting to use those Rare assets in previous games. They had different developments, as Sakurai in previous games chose just about everything instead of letting his team doing a lot of that kind of work.


Like I said before, Sakurai's team chose the spirits. This alone might be why he wasn't at least a spirit. For all we know, Konami did say no. Thinking about it, is there any Konami arcade stuff in Smash to begin with? Isn't it just all console stuff instead?

What does Sakurai not picking the spirits have to do with anything? A special team put together specifically for spirits is just as capable as Sakurai. Data accidentally left in the code for future purposes is not unprecedented (see Ryu and Roy code in Smash 4)

 

[TheBeastHimself]

What does Sakurai not picking the spirits have to do with anything? A special team put together specifically for spirits is just as capable as Sakurai. Data accidentally left in the code for future purposes is not unprecedented (see Ryu and Roy code in Smash 4)

I'm gonna be honest, I found this sort of odd too. While this may very well just be a simple error, it's still weird considering how much Sakurai and Smash Bros. itself emphasizes close attention to detail and perfection.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What does Sakurai not picking the spirits have to do with anything? A special team put together specifically for spirits is just as capable as Sakurai. Data accidentally left in the code for future purposes is not unprecedented (see Ryu and Roy code in Smash 4)

Roy and Ryu were actually used character data. The other stuff was something that didn't need to be removed(because the names are owned by Nintendo) but couldn't actually be used since Nintendo didn't own the IP.

The analysis doesn't make any sense. And it's a huge deal. His team can make errors. Who do you think did poor translations? His team. They are not perfect. It's simple really; They wanted to use some Rareware stuff they saw cause Nintendo owned them, but misunderstood its meaning and realized it a bit later. The data was already put in the game and because the names are not an issue, they left it in as is. There's absolutely zero evidence that they went to Microsoft at all for it. That's just nothing more than a guess. All we know is that Nintendo directly owns the names, and the only content in there is the names. And nothing more. At best it's a pure coincidence that it's Rareware content and people want B&K in Smash. It's better to just think there is nothing happening than going after a goose chase with no real evidence behind it beyond a pure coincidence at best(and it's not exactly a coincidence, but that .

I'm gonna be honest, I found this sort of odd too. While this may very well just be a simple error, it's still weird considering how much Sakurai and Smash Bros. itself emphasizes close attention to detail and perfection.

More like Sakurai does. His team clearly does not. Again, his team translated King K. Rool and Kaptain K. Rool as brothers. Sakurai strives for perfection. His own team when given control can do what they want as long as there's no licensing issues. He clearly gave them a lot of control in many cases, even when they get things wrong. They aren't about perfection in the same way as he is. It's different people entirely. You're conflating it with the idea that Sakurai was the one going for the Rare spirits. We have evidence that it was his team instead. They've proven to not be about perfection and can make mistakes.

I also remember that there was another Spirit data that had the same issue; name owned by Nintendo, but everything else owned by someone else. I forget what the franchise was though. It wasn't Rare-related, though.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

More like Sakurai does. His team clearly does not. Again, his team translated King K. Rool and Kaptain K. Rool as brothers. Sakurai strives for perfection. His own team when given control can do what they want as long as there's no licensing issues. He clearly gave them a lot of control in many cases, even when they get things wrong. They aren't about perfection in the same way as he is. It's different people entirely. You're conflating it with the idea that Sakurai was the one going for the Rare spirits. We have evidence that it was his team instead. They've proven to not be about perfection and can make mistakes.

You're right, I didn't think about it that way. I actually don't think that's a bad thing either, because it shows that Sakurai isn't forcing his vision of Smash down his teams' throats. At least he's giving them creative freedom.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You're right, I didn't think about it that way. I actually don't think that's a bad thing either, because it shows that Sakurai isn't forcing his vision of Smash down his teams' throats. At least he's giving them creative freedom.

Indeed. In fact, they've helped a lot to make Smash sweet. They convinced Sakurai to keep Ness in Melee as is, despite Mother 64 being planned. The fact it got cancelled down the line isn't the sole factor. He was intending to replace Ness with Lucas at that point even then. They also convinced Sakurai to not worry about Fire Emblem oversaturation and still add Corrin because of the unique moveset. I'm glad he takes their ideas into consideration. He's a stubborn man but he still proves how much he cares about his team.

 

[Zipzter]

That doesn't really tell me anything useful of how it's different. How is it different as a genre? What gameplay style is omitted? Does it lack every old ability? It clearly revolves around collecting things, as that's part of the gameplay too. A big thing that was important to B-K as a series. The designs are definitely different, but you can still clearly tell they're the characters as well. It feels like looking at Young Link and Toon Link. Same basic character, just variant designs. That said, I do agree that the classic design is wayyyyyyyy better. They look really bleh to me in N&B.

Well, it should say a lot. They dropped EVERYTHING about the old game's gameplay, replacing it with a vehicle building simulator of sorts. (Not really a simulator, since the physics and vehicles are unique and previously unseen.) The game works on a level system the likes of Super Mario 64, except you enter different doors to get to slightly modified versions of the same worlds with seperste challenges.
The game receives so much hate because it really isn't Banjo-Kazooie. Now, it is NOT a bad game, and people who actually play it typically end up enjoying it, but it IS a terrible Banjo-Kazooie game. If you're looking for Banjo-Threeie, this isn't what you want. But it is most certainly worth checking out and giving a try. Available on Gamepass and Rare Replay.

 

[weallfloatdownhere7]

Roy and Ryu were actually used character data. The other stuff was something that didn't need to be removed(because the names are owned by Nintendo) but couldn't actually be used since Nintendo didn't own the IP.

The analysis doesn't make any sense. And it's a huge deal. His team can make errors. Who do you think did poor translations? His team. They are not perfect. It's simple really; They wanted to use some Rareware stuff they saw cause Nintendo owned them, but misunderstood its meaning and realized it a bit later. The data was already put in the game and because the names are not an issue, they left it in as is. There's absolutely zero evidence that they went to Microsoft at all for it. That's just nothing more than a guess. All we know is that Nintendo directly owns the names, and the only content in there is the names. And nothing more. At best it's a pure coincidence that it's Rareware content and people want B&K in Smash. It's better to just think there is nothing happening than going after a goose chase with no real evidence behind it beyond a pure coincidence at best(and it's not exactly a coincidence, but that .


More like Sakurai does. His team clearly does not. Again, his team translated King K. Rool and Kaptain K. Rool as brothers. Sakurai strives for perfection. His own team when given control can do what they want as long as there's no licensing issues. He clearly gave them a lot of control in many cases, even when they get things wrong. They aren't about perfection in the same way as he is. It's different people entirely. You're conflating it with the idea that Sakurai was the one going for the Rare spirits. We have evidence that it was his team instead. They've proven to not be about perfection and can make mistakes.

I also remember that there was another Spirit data that had the same issue; name owned by Nintendo, but everything else owned by someone else. I forget what the franchise was though. It wasn't Rare-related, though.

I just think it’s too early to act like we know why those spirit files are there. The game is still being supported and receiving updates. We don’t know one way or the other yet if the Rare spirits are there for a reason or not

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I just think it’s too early to act like we know why those spirit files are there. The game is still being supported and receiving updates. We don’t know one way or the other yet if the Rare spirits are there for a reason or not

A 3rd spirit file showed up with the exact same factors. It was a Nintendo-owned name only. Sometimes it's no longer a coincidence. It's not very useful evidence to suggest they ever tried to get Microsoft on board. It's better to shrug it off at this point instead of getting our hopes up due to lack of information. I'm pretty sure Phil talking about Smash is a lot more useful to get into at this point.

Well, it should say a lot. They dropped EVERYTHING about the old game's gameplay, replacing it with a vehicle building simulator of sorts. (Not really a simulator, since the physics and vehicles are unique and previously unseen.) The game works on a level system the likes of Super Mario 64, except you enter different doors to get to slightly modified versions of the same worlds with seperste challenges.
The game receives so much hate because it really isn't Banjo-Kazooie. Now, it is NOT a bad game, and people who actually play it typically end up enjoying it, but it IS a terrible Banjo-Kazooie game. If you're looking for Banjo-Threeie, this isn't what you want. But it is most certainly worth checking out and giving a try. Available on Gamepass and Rare Replay.

Ah, now I get it. Thank you. It's kind of like Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. A great movie, but it doesn't remind you of Final Fantasy(ironically, it contains a lot more FF elements than people realize. And I don't mean Blizzara).

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Well, it should say a lot. They dropped EVERYTHING about the old game's gameplay, replacing it with a vehicle building simulator of sorts. (Not really a simulator, since the physics and vehicles are unique and previously unseen.) The game works on a level system the likes of Super Mario 64, except you enter different doors to get to slightly modified versions of the same worlds with seperste challenges.
The game receives so much hate because it really isn't Banjo-Kazooie. Now, it is NOT a bad game, and people who actually play it typically end up enjoying it, but it IS a terrible Banjo-Kazooie game. If you're looking for Banjo-Threeie, this isn't what you want. But it is most certainly worth checking out and giving a try. Available on Gamepass and Rare Replay.

I mean, that's sort of like saying Mario spinoffs are terrible Mario games because they don't replicate that platformer elements of the originals. If people think it's a good game, and it belongs to the Banjo-Kazooie franchise, then it can be considered a good Banjo game.

If people don't like the game, so be it. But you can't compare Nuts & Bolts to Banjo-Kazooie and Tooie when it isn't even trying to be like those games. I feel like the main reason a lot of people hate Nuts & Bolts is because it isn't Banjo Threeie, and that isn't fair because, like I said, the game never marketed itself to be that way. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

 

[maf91186]

I mean, that's sort of like saying Mario spinoffs are terrible Mario games because they don't replicate that platformer elements of the originals. If people think it's a good game, and it belongs to the Banjo-Kazooie franchise, then it can be considered a good Banjo game.

If people don't like the game, so be it. But you can't compare Nuts & Bolts to Banjo-Kazooie and Tooie when it isn't even trying to be like those games. I feel like the main reason a lot of people hate Nuts & Bolts is because it isn't Banjo Threeie, and that isn't fair because, like I said, the game never marketed itself to be that way. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

This was our first look at it.

This was why we had our hopes up.

 

[weallfloatdownhere7]

A 3rd spirit file showed up with the exact same factors. It was a Nintendo-owned name only. Sometimes it's no longer a coincidence. It's not very useful evidence to suggest they ever tried to get Microsoft on board. It's better to shrug it off at this point instead of getting our hopes up due to lack of information. I'm pretty sure Phil talking about Smash is a lot more useful to get into at this point.


Ah, now I get it. Thank you. It's kind of like Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. A great movie, but it doesn't remind you of Final Fantasy(ironically, it contains a lot more FF elements than people realize. And I don't mean Blizzara).

Which 3rd file was this?

Anyway, I’m not saying it confirms anything, I just think we shouldn’t act like anything is concrete one way or the other until the game is done being supported

 

[TheBeastHimself]

This was our first look at it.

What else were we supposed to think?

I will admit that's pretty misleading, but to be fair, nothing about the trailer explicitly says that "this game is going to be a 3D platformer in the likes of the previous Banjo games". The point of the trailer seems to just be confirming that Banjo would be getting a new game. If anything the drastically different designs of Banjo and Kazooie should have indicated that this was going to be a reboot of sorts. But at the same time, I get it.

But I don't think Microsoft and Rare are 100% in the fault here. Yes, they made a pretty misleading trailer, but it was also the fans who assumed and expected it was going to be Banjo-Threeie, when nothing about the trailer outright confirmed that. Yes, in the early 2000s before the Microsoft buyout Rare confirmed that they were going to make Banjo-Threeie. However, Rare also confirmed they were going to make Conker's Other Bad Day. But then the buyout happened, and Other Bad Day got cancelled and turned into Live and Uncut, which eventually became Live and Reloaded. Live and Reloaded was released in 2005, before Nuts & Bolts, so that should have been an indication right there that Rare plans from before the buyout weren't going to stay the same.

I think both parties can be at fault here, but I don't think it's fair to completely blame Microsoft and Rare over false assumptions and expectations.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Can't we say the same thing about Joker? I was in line to buy Smash Ultimate when someone mentioned Joker and I immediately thought of the villain from batman. I had never heard of the guy.

Sad thing is we have ATs (Shadow, Bomberman, etc.) that are more well known and impactful than Joker or some of the characters being discussed for the DLC pack.

Not quite the same thing, Akira barely just got out of the womb a few years ago, so to speak. It's too early to have made a big, lasting impact in his case.

I mean, that's sort of like saying Mario spinoffs are terrible Mario games because they don't replicate that platformer elements of the originals. If people think it's a good game, and it belongs to the Banjo-Kazooie franchise, then it can be considered a good Banjo game.

If people don't like the game, so be it. But you can't compare Nuts & Bolts to Banjo-Kazooie and Tooie when it isn't even trying to be like those games. I feel like the main reason a lot of people hate Nuts & Bolts is because it isn't Banjo Threeie, and that isn't fair because, like I said, the game never marketed itself to be that way. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

That would be fine, if not for the fact that it was chronologically set after B-K and Tooie. It's a similar situation to Rayman 3 and Raving Rabbids, they had went from a platformer to a minigame collection (except on the GBA version, but that's a different kettle of fish).

There is changing things up a bit, and then there's changing the rules of the board game entirely.

 

[SKX31]

Which 3rd file was this?

Anyway, I’m not saying it confirms anything, I just think we shouldn’t act like anything is concrete one way or the other until the game is done being supported

Devil's Third, owned by Korean Nexon (ArcheAge, Maple Story, licensed western games for the Korean PC market etc.). According to the Cutting Room Floor:

"Nexon now owns the rights to Devil's Third and released Devil's Third Online for Windows, as a result causing Nintendo to shut down the servers for the Wii U version."

That does complicate things a lot. I don't think many would assume that Nintendo talked with Nexon about possible SSBU representation for starters.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

I mean, that's sort of like saying Mario spinoffs are terrible Mario games because they don't replicate that platformer elements of the originals. If people think it's a good game, and it belongs to the Banjo-Kazooie franchise, then it can be considered a good Banjo game.

If people don't like the game, so be it. But you can't compare Nuts & Bolts to Banjo-Kazooie and Tooie when it isn't even trying to be like those games. I feel like the main reason a lot of people hate Nuts & Bolts is because it isn't Banjo Threeie, and that isn't fair because, like I said, the game never marketed itself to be that way. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I think the main difference is that Mario Kart, Party, Sports etc are just "Spinoffs" and don't interfere with the "Mainline" games.

Nuts & Bolts got a lot of backlash because fans waited 8 years for the long anticipated follow up to Banjo-Tooie and were expecting them to build off of it and be the ultimate Banjo-Kazooie 3D platformer experience, It also wasn't a spinoff it was the next installment and follow up to Banjo-Tooie, If Nuts & Bolts was a spinoff and was released along side "Banjo-Threeie" it would have been better recieved, But considering the circumstances it is largely been viewed as a big disappointment.

If Microsoft and Rare were going to plan on revisiting an IP that hasn't been used in 8 years then they better return to the roots of what made the franchise so great in the first place.

Doesn't help that the teaser trailer for Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts baited fans into thinking that this was actually going to be Banjo-Threeie.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Which 3rd file was this?

Anyway, I’m not saying it confirms anything, I just think we shouldn’t act like anything is concrete one way or the other until the game is done being supported

I'm saying it's better to be cautious and not use it as any sort of evidence. But that's fair. Assuming one way or the other is a bad idea, agreed.