Social Banjo-Kazooie Social Thread - Project Dream Come True!

[TheBeastHimself]

I still stand by my belief that Minecraft is only Smash worthy as a unique stage. Music and fighter potential is severely limited or non-existent.

Off topic but would it be okay if I called you Mama Luigi instead of Kroda Stagg? Still can't stop reading your posts in that voice...

 

[osby]

You're right, I didn't take the Isabelle Mii costume into consideration. I understand that Steve has his own merits to get in, but all I'm trying to say is that Phil Spencer has the power to make Nintendo aware of the Banjo support, and this would also be Sakurai's second and possibly limited chance of including Banjo depending on if Nintendo and Microsoft continue their friendly relations going forward. That is why I personally think that Banjo is more likely than Steve. I'll admit that the whole Mii costume thing was just me babbling nonsense. Steve is literally from one of the biggest and most influential games of this generation, of course he may have just as much a chance as Banjo does, but for the reasons I stated, I think Banjo is more likely.

Fair enough. Though Banjo is hardly the only chance of building good relationships between those two, considering Super Mario Mash-Up Pack is a thing.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Fair enough. Though Banjo is hardly the only chance of building good relationships between those two, considering Super Mario Mash-Up Pack is a thing.

That's also a valid point. In reality as much as I believe Banjo is more likely, anything can honestly happen.

 

[Mr. Stagg]

Off topic but would it be okay if I called you Mama Luigi instead of Kroda Stagg? Still can't stop reading your posts in that voice...

lol Thats fine. I want to change my username but I can't find the function to do that on account of my boomer senility.

 

[osby]

lol Thats fine. I want to change my username but I can't find the function to do that on account of my boomer senility.

I don't think you can change your username unless you are a premium member, iirc.

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

This thread treads a lot around Minecraft, and I'm not going to lie, it gets a little repetitive. It's the simple "I don't want Steve to get into Smash over Banjo" sentiment (which I find to be completely understandable) hiding behind/turning into a "Steve doesn't deserve to be a fighter"/"Steve would be better as an AT or Mii costume" mentality, at which point a moderator comes in to keep people's anti-Steve fervor in check. I have to say, it gets kind of old.

I'm not going to say that Steve can't/shouldn't be a fighter, because I don't think that. Of course, I'm not particularly interested in seeing Steve as a fighter either. To me, both Steve and Banjo have enough merit to get into Smash, but since I care about the bear and bird like nothing else (and because I myself have no personal attachment to Minecraft whatsoever), I'll support them over Steve any day of the week. And like most of us, I'll be extremely disappointed if Steve is a DLC fighter and Banjo is not. But just because I'm worried about that possibility doesn't really mean it's okay for me to bash Steve or Minecraft or what have you. I just say I want Banjo over Steve and let that be it- it doesn't have to be anything more than that.

Sorry. Wanted to get that out of my system.

 

[TheAnvil]

They should be referred to as "Banjo", since he'd be the player character, but even Rosalina's puppet got a clunkily implimented mention in her fighter name so I guess that's off the cards.

Duck Hunt is Duck Hunt Duo, though, so unless they want to title them "Banjo Kazooie Duo", the & aught to be there.

Duck Hunt was such a dumb name for the character outside europe. Whether you think it's a Duo (it is) or a Trio (lol, and Pac-Man's a quintet) it's the laziest name ever. Should have at least just called the character Duck Hunt Dog in that case.

 

[osby]

Duck Hunt was such a dumb name for the character outside europe. Whether you think it's a Duo (it is) or a Trio (lol, and Pac-Man's a quintet) it's the laziest name ever. Should have at least just called the character Duck Hunt Dog in that case.

But that would ignore half of the fighting is done by shooter and duck.

Also, fun fact: In Japanese version, Ice Climbers are called "Ice Climber", so they are also called with just their game's name.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

This thread treads a lot around Minecraft, and I'm not going to lie, it gets a little repetitive. It's the simple "I don't want Steve to get into Smash over Banjo" sentiment (which I find to be completely understandable) hiding behind/turning into a "Steve doesn't deserve to be a fighter"/"Steve would be better as an AT or Mii costume" mentality, at which point a moderator comes in to keep people's anti-Steve fervor in check. I have to say, it gets kind of old.

I'm not going to say that Steve can't/shouldn't be a fighter, because I don't think that. Of course, I'm not particularly interested in seeing Steve as a fighter either. To me, both Steve and Banjo have enough merit to get into Smash, but since I care about the bear and bird like nothing else (and because I myself have no personal attachment to Minecraft whatsoever), I'll support them over Steve any day of the week. And like most of us, I'll be extremely disappointed if Steve is a DLC fighter and Banjo is not. But just because I'm worried about that possibility doesn't really mean it's okay for me to bash Steve or Minecraft or what have you. I just say I want Banjo over Steve and let that be it- it doesn't have to be anything more than that.

Sorry. Wanted to get that out of my system.

If this is directed towards me, I don't think I bashed Steve.

 

[TheAnvil]

But that would ignore half of the fighting is done by shooter and duck.

Also, fun fact: In Japanese version, Ice Climbers are called "Ice Climber", so they are also called with just their game's name.

I believe that's something to do with Japan's lack of pluralisation though. The shooter accounts for smash attacks and half of 2 of his b moves. That pales in comparison to every other movement and attack that the Duo does. It'd be like referring to Pac-Man as Pac-Man & Ghosts.

This thread treads a lot around Minecraft, and I'm not going to lie, it gets a little repetitive. It's the simple "I don't want Steve to get into Smash over Banjo" sentiment (which I find to be completely understandable) hiding behind/turning into a "Steve doesn't deserve to be a fighter"/"Steve would be better as an AT or Mii costume" mentality, at which point a moderator comes in to keep people's anti-Steve fervor in check. I have to say, it gets kind of old.

I'm not going to say that Steve can't/shouldn't be a fighter, because I don't think that. Of course, I'm not particularly interested in seeing Steve as a fighter either. To me, both Steve and Banjo have enough merit to get into Smash, but since I care about the bear and bird like nothing else (and because I myself have no personal attachment to Minecraft whatsoever), I'll support them over Steve any day of the week. And like most of us, I'll be extremely disappointed if Steve is a DLC fighter and Banjo is not. But just because I'm worried about that possibility doesn't really mean it's okay for me to bash Steve or Minecraft or what have you. I just say I want Banjo over Steve and let that be it- it doesn't have to be anything more than that.

Sorry. Wanted to get that out of my system.

Ehh. Not really. The thread treads around Steve because people won't stop bringing him up. So this is the last time I'ma mention him in here.

As a Banjo fan, I'm not adverse to other Microsoft characters entering Smash (even before him) if they're worthwhile and if it's justifiable. Master Chief, I could see justification for it. Halo's massive and Chief is inarguably one of the biggest video game characters of all time. That'd be entirely justified, even if I'd be disappointed. Steve-o's simply a default skin (not a character) that the majority of MC fans don't even give two ****s about. Minecraft isn't about characters, it's about world building.

I'm not saying Steve can't be in, because we've seen how many times bad decisions can plague Smash's roster before (at the very least, Corrin). It can certainly happen again. But by all metrics he has nothing to offer and never any real popularity within Smash circles prior to "muh leaks". As far as Minecraft content goes, like Monster Hunter best being represented with a boss fight, a stage/boss/costume/assist really is the way to go and there'd be nothing wrong with any of those things.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

You know, when you think about it, Steve is potentially a monkey paw wish no matter which way you slice it.

You want a stage builder again? He may be a package deal with it.
You want an indie character? He's the first one in.
You want a Microsoft character? He's the first one in.
You want a Western character? He's the first one in.

Except for people that do want him, that is, no idea how many people suggested the idea. Whether he is a necessary weasel or not is really ambiguous at this stage.

I feel like people were overblowing that, Not surprising seeing how this is the internet, But it was still pretty annoying how some people were really buying into that. It gives me flashbacks when people were overanalyzing the Smash direct backgrounds that were supposely teasing fighters that never became true and which I never bought into.

Yeah...the minute I saw that, I knew people would read too much into it. It's like nothing can be taken for granted when you say anything.

Although the chairs did foreshadow the final boss, which no one would have guessed.

 

[ryuu seika]

Duck Hunt is the more proper name. It's a bad translation as the character is more properly a trio, with the invisible Gun Man(via using the Zapper) for a lot of the moves. Duo is just misleading. It's as bad as them forgetting how important the Pikmin are among the characters. It should be labeled Pikmin & Olimar instead(as well as Pikmin & Alph), as they're the more accurate names. Sometimes we get misleading translations, really.

Duck Hunt Duo may be inaccurate but, until that translation arrived, I was fully prepared to resort to german and call him "Das Hunt". "Duck Hunt" is not a character name in any way.

And, of course, I strongly disagree on your suggestion for Olimar. You play as someone who commands pikmin, you don't play as the pikmin. Characters you don't play as shouldn't be named on the select screen. Or are you a Peach & Toad supporter?

Also, fun fact: In Japanese version, Ice Climbers are called "Ice Climber", so they are also called with just their game's name.

As Anvil said, japan doesn't do plurals in general but, even if it did, Ice Climber is a valid name for the controlable Popo in a way that Duck Hunt is not for the dog.

 

[maf91186]

 

[osby]

Duck Hunt Duo may be inaccurate but, until that translation arrived, I was fully prepared to resort to german and call him "Das Hunt". "Duck Hunt" is not a character name in any way.

And, of course, I strongly disagree on your suggestion for Olimar. You play as someone who commands pikmin, you don't play as the pikmin. Characters you don't play as shouldn't be named on the select screen. Or are you a Peach & Toad supporter?

It might be a bit hard to cram Charizard & Ivysaur & Squirtle in there.

 

[ryuu seika]

It might be a bit hard to cram Charizard & Ivysaur & Squirtle in there.

Thematically, you give commands as the trainer, making the trainer the player character. From an actual gameplay perspective, though, you are totally right and something like "Starter Pokemon" would be the solution.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Duck Hunt Duo may be inaccurate but, until that translation arrived, I was fully prepared to resort to german and call him "Das Hunt". "Duck Hunt" is not a character name in any way.

And, of course, I strongly disagree on your suggestion for Olimar. You play as someone who commands pikmin, you don't play as the pikmin. Characters you don't play as shouldn't be named on the select screen. Or are you a Peach & Toad supporter?



As Anvil said, japan doesn't do plurals in general but, even if it did, Ice Climber is a valid name for the controlable Popo in a way that Duck Hunt is not for the dog.

I prefer going by my interpretation, in that you play as the Duck Hunt game itself.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I think you're right. First off, there's no way Conker would get in before Banjo. And yeah, there honestly are a lot of more popular franchises that would drive sales through the roof. If Banjo does make it in as DLC, Conker could have a chance in the next game's base roster. Maybe not a huge chance, but his foot would definitely be in the door. As for DLC, who knows, Sakurai may pull some WTF characters or retro reps, and Conker could fit into one of those categories. For now, I'm just going to continue praying to the Smash Gods that Sakurai pulls off a miracle.

To be honest, I believe if Conker ever get's in Smash, I think he will be DLC because a lot of N64 and Rare fans would buy him. In my point of view, he seems like the DLC type whether than the base type mostly because of his mature theme.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Isabelle is a character, Steve is an avatar. I don’t buy the comparison, sorry

 

[osby]

Isabelle is a character, Steve is an avatar. I don’t buy the comparison, sorry

Which comparison? Assist Trophy one?

And it's not like there is a clear cut line between avatars and characters. In most cases, avatars are just two dimensional or generic characters.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I think the actual term to use here should be "self-insert". If your character is enough of a blank slate, players can project themselves onto them. Even Dragon Quest heroes.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I mean, Steve IS a generic two-dimensional character, and that’s fine. That’s what Steve is suppose to be. I just personally feel you lose none of the character’s value having him represented as a Mii Costume unlike the Animal Crossing characters, especially Isabelle, and to be more on topic Banjo.

I think the actual term to use here should be "self-insert". If your character is enough of a blank slate, players can project themselves onto them. Even Dragon Quest heroes.

Remember when Link was such a character?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Duck Hunt Duo may be inaccurate but, until that translation arrived, I was fully prepared to resort to german and call him "Das Hunt". "Duck Hunt" is not a character name in any way.

Duck Hunt is the proper name of the trio of characters because it represents it accurately. You're basically playing as parts of the game(or literally as the game). They're completely blank slate characters and have no legitimate names at any given time. Never mind, as noted, they are a trio, not a duo. The UK Translation is screwed up overall.

And, of course, I strongly disagree on your suggestion for Olimar. You play as someone who commands pikmin, you don't play as the pikmin. Characters you don't play as shouldn't be named on the select screen. Or are you a Peach & Toad supporter?[/QUOTE]
It's still more accurate than Olimar. Toad actually could easily be part of the name now. So yes, I'd be fine with that since Toad is a far bigger part of the moveset. The moveset is what creates the name, and the reality is, the Pikmin are a hard part and focus of the moveset. That's why they're correctly called Olimar & Pikmin. There's no way around the fact it's still the official name and was designed for it to be a combination of characters in one. It's even been used as the name of the page on the websites for that reason alone. Doesn't make it less of a completely inaccurate translation outside of Japan.

The Pokemon Trainer example above doesn't work because if you want to include them all, it would be Pokemon Trainer & Squirtle & Ivysaur & Charizard for hard accuracy. Or you could call it Pokemon Trainer & Pokemon... but that's redundant. It's actually accurate by the fact you do control Pokemon via the Trainer's command in concept, thus, there is no need to list all 3 named Pokemon. What else is the Trainer doing? Nothing but commanding Pokemon. The fact Pokemon is in the name is why it's still accurate.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Forgot to mention this earlier, but last night I dreamed about posting on this thread. Can't remember what it was about, specifically.

That's a sign that things have gone out of control to the point that news need to happen, soon as possible.

 

[TheAnvil]

Duck Hunt is the proper name of the trio of characters because it represents it accurately. You're basically playing as parts of the game(or literally as the game). They're completely blank slate characters and have no legitimate names at any given time. Never mind, as noted, they are a trio, not a duo. The UK Translation is screwed up overall.

And, of course, I strongly disagree on your suggestion for Olimar. You play as someone who commands pikmin, you don't play as the pikmin. Characters you don't play as shouldn't be named on the select screen. Or are you a Peach & Toad supporter?

It's still more accurate than Olimar. Toad actually could easily be part of the name now. So yes, I'd be fine with that since Toad is a far bigger part of the moveset. The moveset is what creates the name, and the reality is, the Pikmin are a hard part and focus of the moveset. That's why they're correctly called Olimar & Pikmin. There's no way around the fact it's still the official name and was designed for it to be a combination of characters in one. It's even been used as the name of the page on the websites for that reason alone. Doesn't make it less of a completely inaccurate translation outside of Japan.

The Pokemon Trainer example above doesn't work because if you want to include them all, it would be Pokemon Trainer & Squirtle & Ivysaur & Charizard for hard accuracy. Or you could call it Pokemon Trainer & Pokemon... but that's redundant. It's actually accurate by the fact you do control Pokemon via the Trainer's command in concept, thus, there is no need to list all 3 named Pokemon. What else is the Trainer doing? Nothing but commanding Pokemon. The fact Pokemon is in the name is why it's still accurate.[/QUOTE]

That doesn't make sense, you're not playing as the game. The Dog and Duck have teamed up for Smash, which is the antithesis of their original game where they're foes.

You're far closer to playing the game in the Duck Hunt stage. They're a duo, with move references to the gunner, clay pigeons, can, wild gunmen. That's it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That doesn't make sense, you're not playing as the game. The Dog and Duck have teamed up for Smash, which is the antithesis of their original game where they're foes.

You're far closer to playing the game in the Duck Hunt stage. They're a duo, with move references to the gunner, clay pigeons, can, wild gunmen. That's it.

The dog, hunter(the gunman in the background with the zapper, A.K.A. you), and duck team up. They're 100% a trio by design.

Ignoring the Wild Gunman cameos, though, you still are a trio. They should've been called Duck Hunt Trio or kept as Duck Hunt. We get screwed up and inaccurate translations quite often. Remember when King K. Rool and Kaptain K. Rool were brothers? Same exact problem. Or like how Eggman and Dr. Robotnik were not even treated as the same person at first in the Sonic games due to inproper names. Another great example is how Japan decided Galvatron and Megatron were unrelated... and then backpedaled that canon to better match the original cartoon, where they are the same person. Which is why they literally were recolors after a while so it makes more sense.

Basically, there's three major characters in the game. You're playing as all three. This is why they're called Duck Hunt. For some silly reason, we got a bad UK name that mistakes what the actual set of characters are. Why we got it? Who knows. It's obvious Sakurai doesn't approve every translation as is, otherwise we wouldn't get multiple bad ones like Duck Hunt Duo or the two K. Rools being different people. Frankly, he should be in charge of that to make sure the game is translated correctly. But it is what it is.

 

[TheAnvil]

The dog, hunter(the gunman in the background with the zapper, A.K.A. you), and duck team up. They're 100% a trio by design.

Ignoring the Wild Gunman cameos, though, you still are a trio. They should've been called Duck Hunt Trio or kept as Duck Hunt. We get screwed up and inaccurate translations quite often. Remember when King K. Rool and Kaptain K. Rool were brothers? Same exact problem. Or like how Eggman and Dr. Robotnik were not even treated as the same person at first in the Sonic games due to inproper names. Another great example is how Japan decided Galvatron and Megatron were unrelated... and then backpedaled that canon to better match the original cartoon, where they are the same person. Which is why they literally were recolors after a while so it makes more sense.

Basically, there's three major characters in the game. You're playing as all three. This is why they're called Duck Hunt. For some silly reason, we got a bad UK name that mistakes what the actual set of characters are. Why we got it? Who knows. It's obvious Sakurai doesn't approve every translation as is, otherwise we wouldn't get multiple bad ones like Duck Hunt Duo or the two K. Rools being different people. Frankly, he should be in charge of that to make sure the game is translated correctly. But it is what it is.

Boy, I sure love playing as Pac-Man & Ghosts.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Boy, I sure love playing as Pac-Man & Ghosts.

And your bad comparison doesn't make for a good argument. Or a legitimate argument to begin with. Those are just helping and barely are part of the moveset, not a focus of it either. Pac-Man has quite a few cameos among his moveset. In fact, that's basically what he is, a walking arcade reference. It's the only reason he even became playable, as Sakurai couldn't figure out a way to implement him at all. But if you want to be actually accurate, Pac-Man's moveset is "Namco Arcade plus myself", while Duck Hunt is "Three characters in one, representing the Duck Hunt universe while using the NES Zapper player and other characters from the NES Zapper series". There's a difference between cameos(which is everyone who isn't Pac-Man among his moveset) and an actual character represented by the moveset(the NES Zapper player character). It's like saying the Pikmin aren't a major part of the moveset,or that Pokemon Trainer is irrelevant(which is proven that both are immensely important. It's why Charizard when separated not having a Trainer makes actual sense. It's because it's no longer Pokemon Trainer, who is a commander of three specific Pokemon. This is probably also why we don't see any Trainers for any other Pokemon, as it's a very strict character setup).

The difference here is that Duck Hunt is a trio of playable characters all intentionally working together(the NES Zapper user, the Dog, and the Duck).

Back in 1987, when Duck Hunt came out, these two might not have had the best relationship. That all seems to have changed now, and this unlikely pair are here to fight together. After throwing a can or a clay pigeon, press the button again to have a little helper fire the NES Zapper for extra damage!

Even the PAL version hilariously notes the third character, despite its inaccurate translation. Note that the other trophies simply don't talk about the NES Zapper character, so in context, them referring to just the Duck and the Dog as a duo makes sense. Doesn't mean the full character isn't a trio.

 

[Mr. Stagg]

Isabelle is a character, Steve is an avatar. I don’t buy the comparison, sorry

The main argument I usually hear to justify Steve is using Animal Crossing characters as justification. This falls flat because each villager is still able to emote and articulate where others like Isabelle have far more personality and charm. I believe many Steve defenders mistake our words of criticism as words of bashing. I've played Minecraft before and know all about how it works, that said I still believe that a Mii costume works better. Maybe also an assist trophy due to his Akira-like appearance

I'm willing to admit that Banjo-kazooie isn't as relevant as Minecraft, even though Minecraft has been released on everything including mobile. My words against Steve come from an educated point based on Sakurai's own design philosophy and knowledge of how Smash brothers works. I'll admit I dont really care for Minecraft, but I save my more "colorful" language for when I ****post on 4chan.

 

[Mr. Trumo]

Magnificient!

 

[TheZoologist]

The main argument I usually hear to justify Steve is using Animal Crossing characters as justification. This falls flat because each villager is still able to emote and articulate where others like Isabelle have far more personality and charm. I believe many Steve defenders mistake our words of criticism as words of bashing. I've played Minecraft before and know all about how it works, that said I still believe that a Mii costume works better. Maybe also an assist trophy due to his Akira-like appearance

I'm willing to admit that Banjo-kazooie isn't as relevant as Minecraft, even though Minecraft has been released on everything including mobile. My words against Steve come from an educated point based on Sakurai's own design philosophy and knowledge of how Smash brothers works. I'll admit I dont really care for Minecraft, but I save my more "colorful" language for when I ****post on 4chan.

It’s just a sad state that Banjo & Kazooie aren’t as relevant as they were because of the way their property was mishandled due to Nintendo and Microsoft’s actions. They should be as big of names as Mario, Sonic, and Mega Man are these days and still be part of the video game landscape. They deserve to be in the spotlight and having the chance to evolve as platformers as much as Mario. I hope things change for them because being compared to the likes of Croc, Gex, and Ty the Tasmanian Tiger (who I actually would like to see more of too, honestly) breaks my heart. They’re literally my favorite video game characters and deserve new games and a place amongst the Smash roster!

 

[TheAnvil]

And your bad comparison doesn't make for a good argument. Or a legitimate argument to begin with. Those are just helping and barely are part of the moveset, not a focus of it either. Pac-Man has quite a few cameos among his moveset. In fact, that's basically what he is, a walking arcade reference. It's the only reason he even became playable, as Sakurai couldn't figure out a way to implement him at all. But if you want to be actually accurate, Pac-Man's moveset is "Namco Arcade plus myself", while Duck Hunt is "Three characters in one, representing the Duck Hunt universe while using the NES Zapper player and other characters from the NES Zapper series". There's a difference between cameos(which is everyone who isn't Pac-Man among his moveset) and an actual character represented by the moveset(the NES Zapper player character). It's like saying the Pikmin aren't a major part of the moveset,or that Pokemon Trainer is irrelevant(which is proven that both are immensely important. It's why Charizard when separated not having a Trainer makes actual sense. It's because it's no longer Pokemon Trainer, who is a commander of three specific Pokemon. This is probably also why we don't see any Trainers for any other Pokemon, as it's a very strict character setup).

The difference here is that Duck Hunt is a trio of playable characters all intentionally working together(the NES Zapper user, the Dog, and the Duck).

Back in 1987, when Duck Hunt came out, these two might not have had the best relationship. That all seems to have changed now, and this unlikely pair are here to fight together. After throwing a can or a clay pigeon, press the button again to have a little helper fire the NES Zapper for extra damage!

Even the PAL version hilariously notes the third character, despite its inaccurate translation. Note that the other trophies simply don't talk about the NES Zapper character, so in context, them referring to just the Duck and the Dog as a duo makes sense. Doesn't mean the full character isn't a trio.

Lol they refer to it as a helper, which is exactly what the gunman is. An assist, not an equal. As he comprises practically the same amount of the Duck Hunt Duo's moveset as the ghosts do in Pac-Man's.

All taunts: Dog and Duck
All walking, running, jumping movements: Dog and Duck
Shielding: Dog and Duck
All tilts: Dog and Duck
All dodges: Dog and Duck
Render: Dog and Duck
Amiibo: Dog and Duck
All hurt animations: Dog and Duck
Final Smash: Dog and Duck (and Wild Gunmen)
Down B: Dog and Duck (and Wild Gunmen)
Up B: Dog and Duck
All items used: Dog and Duck
etc etc etc: Dog and Duck

Smash attacks: Assist
1 half of standard B: Assist (first half Dog and Duck)
1 half of side B: Assist (first half Dog and Duck)

It's hilarious that you would even argue they're a trio.

 

[osby]

Lol they refer to it as a helper, which is exactly what the gunman is. An assist, not an equal. As he comprises practically the same amount of the Duck Hunt Duo's moveset as the ghosts do in Pac-Man's.

1. This is simply incorrect, ghosts show up in one smash attack each. Zapper user is three smash attacks plus half of the specials.
2. PAC-MAN summons them for one second, while thematically Zapper user stays there for cover fire during the whole match.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It’s just a sad state that Banjo & Kazooie aren’t as relevant as they were because of the way their property was mishandled due to Nintendo and Microsoft’s actions. They should be as big of names as Mario, Sonic, and Mega Man are these days and still be part of the video game landscape. They deserve to be in the spotlight and having the chance to evolve as platformers as much as Mario. I hope things change for them because being compared to the likes of Croc, Gex, and Ty the Tasmanian Tiger (who I actually would like to see more of too, honestly) breaks my heart. They’re literally my favorite video game characters and deserve new games and a place amongst the Smash roster!

It's because despite being amazing games in general, the n64 games didn't have the same overall gaming impact that Mario/etc. had. It had an overall lesser impact, and was basically an improved Donkey Kong 64. It had nowhere near the same impact that Super Mario 64 did either. Having more new games wouldn't have helped alone. They'd have needed to introduce a completely new innovation instead of legitimately improving on an already great formula.

They're simply in the lesser set of icons due to having a lesser impact in gaming. Remember, being topnotch N64 games applies to that era of gaming. It doesn't mean they had a lasting or huge impact on gaming as a whole. Credit where credit is due. I'd love for them to be revived and get more games. I feel they deserve it. But until they create a new innovation that influences tons of later games to come, putting him on the level of Mario is inaccurate. He's not there. Definitely not. I'd put him more on the level of Bayonetta, a lesser but highly notable icon these days. Also, I don't remember the Bayonetta series having a major impact in the way of games being based upon hers. I think there was maybe two series somewhat influenced by B-K at this point? I remember Ratchet & Clank being influenced by it, but that was one of the two at best. Hell, I didn't even know any game was influenced by B-K. It isn't common knowledge that they influenced gaming... mainly cause they weren't known for recreating the formula or anything like that. They were known for being amazing games in their own right specifically. Mainly on the n64, though there's definitely fans of the later games(Pilot and Nuts & Bolts).

Lol they refer to it as a helper, which is exactly what the gunman is. An assist, not an equal. As he comprises practically the same amount of the Duck Hunt Duo's moveset as the ghosts do in Pac-Man's.

It's an equal.

The trailer literally shows them posing together. It's literally the offscreen helper who is part of the moveset, working together with the Duck and Dog in order to help hurt enemies with things like Trick Shot's full usage. That's like saying Pokemon Trainer is unimportant to the character. A vastly inaccurate statement.

The main argument I usually hear to justify Steve is using Animal Crossing characters as justification. This falls flat because each villager is still able to emote and articulate where others like Isabelle have far more personality and charm. I believe many Steve defenders mistake our words of criticism as words of bashing. I've played Minecraft before and know all about how it works, that said I still believe that a Mii costume works better. Maybe also an assist trophy due to his Akira-like appearance

I'm willing to admit that Banjo-kazooie isn't as relevant as Minecraft, even though Minecraft has been released on everything including mobile. My words against Steve come from an educated point based on Sakurai's own design philosophy and knowledge of how Smash brothers works. I'll admit I dont really care for Minecraft, but I save my more "colorful" language for when I ****post on 4chan.

And then we have Pokemon Trainer, who has nothing more than statements from the games while being a 100% generic class in practice(while using Red's design since he and Ash are the most recognizable player character designs in Pokemon history. With Leaf added in Ultimate, it gets a bit more obvious of why it's just a generic avatar in practice). Villager is entirely a generic avatar. He/she has no canon personality. At all. It's why the Killager meme even works. They have no preset things. They just use a few animations from the games itself. Steve isn't really so much an avatar as a billed character nowadays. Just like with Alex. And other ones. Steve is more like Link is now, not Villager. They weren't highly defined from the start, but became more clear-cut characters.

Also, Steve is able to emote, it's just without talking. We see eye animations, etc. That's the bare minimum needed. I wouldn't exactly call ones like R.O.B. capable of any better emotion, really. Everything he does is literally simplistic eye movements, with basic body language being used. Steve's no different. Link was pretty much the same despite never properly talking in a single canon game. Mute characters tend to emote well with little effort. It doesn't mean they'll have extremely strong personalities(Ryu and Mario are pretty bland in their regular games, for that reason alone. Though Ryu can talk, he has little personality. Not that he needs it to do the job. Simple and sweet is enough, sometimes).

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

It's because despite being amazing games in general, the n64 games didn't have the same overall gaming impact that Mario/etc. had. It had an overall lesser impact, and was basically an improved Donkey Kong 64. It had nowhere near the same impact that Super Mario 64 did either. Having more new games wouldn't have helped alone. They'd have needed to introduce a completely new innovation instead of legitimately improving on an already great formula.

They're simply in the lesser set of icons due to having a lesser impact in gaming. Remember, being topnotch N64 games applies to that era of gaming. It doesn't mean they had a lasting or huge impact on gaming as a whole. Credit where credit is due. I'd love for them to be revived and get more games. I feel they deserve it. But until they create a new innovation that influences tons of later games to come, putting him on the level of Mario is inaccurate. He's not there. Definitely not. I'd put him more on the level of Bayonetta, a lesser but highly notable icon these days. Also, I don't remember the Bayonetta series having a major impact in the way of games beyond upon her. I think there was maybe two series somewhat influenced by B-K at this point? I remember Ratchet & Clank being influenced by it, but that was it.

Yeah, pretty much. B-K was about as big as Earthworm Jim; decently big, but not nearly big enough to have the layman on the street immediately recognize what you're talking about when you bring up their name.

Also, another comparison in regards to lesser icons, take Travis Touchdown; he's a noteworthy indie character from cult director Goichi Suda. His series has three games now, does that make him recognizable to most people? Of course not, since his series hasn't made much of an impact even back in the day.

That being said, it's important that your characters' games are good enough to leave an impression and keep their series going despite the lack of innovation, and not just be forgotten about like many an imitator. I mean, look at Mega Man, most entries are as derivative as they come, but they still kept that series alive for a time. Innovation can matter, but so does a formula that works.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, pretty much. B-K was about as big as Earthworm Jim; decently big, but not nearly big enough to have the layman on the street immediately recognize what you're talking about when you bring up their name.

Also, another comparison in regards to lesser icons, take Travis Touchdown; he's a noteworthy indie character from cult director Goichi Suda. His series has three games now, does that make him recognizable to most people? Of course not, since his series hasn't made much of an impact even back in the day.

That being said, it's important that your characters' games are good enough to leave an impression and keep their series going despite the lack of innovation, and not just be forgotten about like many an imitator. I mean, look at Mega Man, most entries are as derivative as they come, but they still kept that series alive for a time. Innovation can matter, but so does a formula that works.

Exactly on the last bit. B-K didn't do much innovation in particular. But it didn't need to. It was more than memorable enough(though not as many know of them now compared to back then due to the lack of constant releases to keep them recognizable, respectively) on its own. They're master piece games. That's still an amazing thing. Some games couldn't even get that far. Whether they're memorable for good or bad, even. Like, the E.T. game was highly memorable for the great game crash and for being a "bad" game(which ironically the game was very functionable for the severely short time they had to create it. It was more just over-produced copies that cause the crash when it came to its role. The game was... okay, if you look at all factors. Nowhere near worth calling it a good game or even a cult classic, though).

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

If this is directed towards me, I don't think I bashed Steve.

You didn't, I just saw you talking about Steve and felt a similar vibe from before (though not as... crazy, let's put it). I wasn't trying to put a target on your back, or anyone's back. Just wanted to say all that. Apologies for the confusion.

 

[Mr. Stagg]

And then we have Pokemon Trainer, who has nothing more than statements from the games while being a 100% generic class in practice(while using Red's design since he and Ash are the most recognizable player character designs in Pokemon history. With Leaf added in Ultimate, it gets a bit more obvious of why it's just a generic avatar in practice). Villager is entirely a generic avatar. He/she has no canon personality. At all. It's why the Killager meme even works. They have no preset things. They just use a few animations from the games itself. Steve isn't really so much an avatar as a billed character nowadays. Just like with Alex. And other ones. Steve is more like Link is now, not Villager. They weren't highly defined from the start, but became more clear-cut characters.

Also, Steve is able to emote, it's just without talking. We see eye animations, etc. That's the bare minimum needed. I wouldn't exactly call ones like R.O.B. capable of any better emotion, really. Everything he does is literally simplistic eye movements, with basic body language being used. Steve's no different. Link was pretty much the same despite never properly talking in a single canon game. Mute characters tend to emote well with little effort. It doesn't mean they'll have extremely strong personalities(Ryu and Mario are pretty bland in their regular games, for that reason alone. Though Ryu can talk, he has little personality. Not that he needs it to do the job. Simple and sweet is enough, sometimes).

Comparing Steve to trainer does not really work because all they do is switch out their team while you play as the Pokemon, the core of the franchise.

https://youtu.be/cuS9fusiFcQ


I dont see eye movements at all here. All I see here are head movements. ROB and Villager have far more personality. Remember how sympathetic ROB was in subspace emissary? Plus Villager can show emotions like joy and pain. This applies to other characters like Wii fit and the Links. They all have an expressive face where people for the longest time to this day still cannot tell where Steve's mouth is. The most egregious comparison is Steve to Link, most notably Toon Link, who had by far the most personality than all other Links. This still does not distract from how Steve's movements do not suit Smash Bros. Alter him all you want to look like the Story Mode version, it still does not fix that problem.

Also I know the Steve talk gets a little dull, I like to think of it as discrediting his viability as a fighter.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Comparing Steve to trainer does not really work because all they do is switch out their team while you play as the Pokemon, the core of the franchise.

https://youtu.be/cuS9fusiFcQ


I dont see eye movements at all here. All I see here are head movements. ROB and Villager have far more personality. Remember how sympathetic ROB was in subspace emissary? Plus Villager can show emotions like joy and pain. This applies to other characters like Wii fit and the Links. They all have an expressive face where people for the longest time to this day still cannot tell where Steve's mouth is. The most egregious comparison is Steve to Link, most notably Toon Link, who had by far the most personality than all other Links. This still does not distract from how Steve's movements do not suit Smash Bros. Alter him all you want to look like the Story Mode version, it still does not fix that problem.

Also I know the Steve talk gets a little dull, I like to think of it as discrediting his viability as a fighter.

R.O.B. did nothing more than head movements and eye stuff that actually gave any sorts of personality at all. It was simple body language. We saw the sympathetic bits due to super basic movements and after things like what Ganondorf did. It wasn't R.O.B. having any personality shown so much as the actions being done to the character. The sympathetic traits are a reaction to the horrible things done while having very basic eye movements. It's not difficult to see someone looking down a little with eyes drooped to tell they're sad. That doesn't require much at all. And is one of the easiest things to animate/draw as is. Or sprite out. It's that basic and very easy to pull off. That's why R.O.B. isn't a great example. He has less real personality than Ryu, who is rather bland on his own. But still has enough for Smash. If you're arguing that Steve lacks that much, fair enough. But if you're arguing R.O.B. has a ton of personality, that's not really correct. He just has a pretty big story revolving around him compared to having a personality behind it.

Villager, as I noted, has zero canon personality. It's a 100% generic avatar character with zero defining traits beyond being in a game where characters are friendly neighbors. What you see is just general emotions every single character has. They are just acting like the rest of the game acts. It's why Villager has a mostly blank expression at times during the trailers. His face is often cold and lifeless, with sometimes a smile here and there. The comparison doesn't work to Steve not because Villager has a personality in Smash in itself, but because they didn't use anything canon as a personality from the Animal Crossing games at all to create him/her in Smash. Steve isn't high on personality either, but to say Villager was is incorrect too. They gave Villager a non-canon personality that fits the personality of the various villagers in the game mishmashed as much as possible, but it didn't entirely work due to what I said above. The facial expressions very often are too cold and lifeless. It's part of why the Killager meme was born, due to the lack of a defining personality trait among the Villager player characters.

Steve is able to move just fine. As proven with Wario's and Mr. Game & Watch's janky movements. That's easy enough to animate. The worst issue when it came to design problems is that his in-game aesthetics feel off-putting in Smash, outside of Brawl(and maybe Melee) at best. The game is far more cartoony, so the design that should be used is the boxart version, which is nice and colorful. Simple and clean.

Trainer is 100% generic in every way and does little other than repeat basic lines of every trainer in the games that the Player Character would use. It's not exactly much of a defined personality. Or much of one at all. Most of the personality is fanmade coming from the memes and things like "Brawl Taunts" where they revoiced the lines and changed them up to make it sound more unique. Never mind that Trainer is still a huge focus of the Pokemon franchise and why having 3 Pokemon along with Trainer is the key mechanic. You can't have one without the other. Charizard solo doesn't have a trainer for that reason either.

 

[ivanlerma]

can we all please not argue over steve please,this is getting old.

 

[Mr. Stagg]

can we all please not argue over steve please,this is getting old.

I feel like making a "Why steve doesn't work " thread will come off as bashing where it's just a way for people to talk about it. I'm about done talking about him so I'm showing this to segway into something more thread appropriate.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BluePaintSea/status/1043956486358138881