Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #15 - Ice Climbers (Rediscussion)

Zinoto

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
1,565
Location
Michigan
#1

:popo: was thought to be at a disadvantage against us a while back, but now the general consensus seems to be that it is even around the boards. I think it's time to re-evaluate these chaingrabbing monsters and come up with a solid number ^_^


It is important that you read this! Every first post by a user in a Matchup Thread is encouraged to have at least a couple of sentences of information, alongside a ratio. Posts may not be considered for ratio and summary solidifying without these from the poster at some point in the thread, and keeping them towards the beginning helps keep discussion tidy. You have two weeks to share information that you feel is helpful in the Matchup, as well as debate with others. Compelling arguments are a must people, I expect any joking and trolls to be at a minimum.


Ideas for discussion...

-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-Diddy's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-

BBR Ratio: 0
Old Ratio: +1
New Ratio: -1

This thread will be posted in the :popo: boards as well.
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,213
Location
Pika?
#2
-1 Diddy (I will post in the reference of Diddy's ratios since this is a Diddy thread)

ICs are the only character in the game that control the ground better than diddy. This is a MAJOR detriment to Diddy's game. Bananas aren't all that effective against people that don't get flustered by having people right in their face. They can't really combo ICs since there are 2 of them (Although sometimes nana can be ******** and just walk towards you). Diddy's edgeguarding/nana killing is supremely overrated considering her erratic jump patterns and random BS **** she does when separated sometimes, and Diddy has to put herself far out of the way to do that and can EASILY get punished/killed by the popo if he is near enough (Not having your DJ and getting faired off at 60% isn't a good look).

In general, neither character can really edgeguard one another. Same for messing when they are in the air due to the ability for them to shift their momentum and stay safe while doing it. (Squall for ICs and Diddy Hump for diddy). In the ground/ground, ICs wins. In the air/air, it is mostly about positioning. Diddy wins when in front of ICs, ICs win when facing away (or at least tied). Neither win in the other situations as mentioned above, but if anything ICs are better at juggling Diddy than vice-versa.

I honestly feel like ICs are the one character that use Diddy's bananas better. Not because of movement stuff, but because of the threat of banana = death. That's not very fun...None of Diddy's moves are disjointed, making everything unsafe to pivot-grab. Dash attack, an amazing way to get in on most characters, is relatively useless due to the double shield-stun on ICs shields which leads ICs to Shield grab it easier.

As a Diddy Kong, you should be camping and hitting ICs when they overcommit to something like a DJ uair. Obviously if you separate you can beat up nana, but don't get too greedy. Bair is probably your best move in this MU, as well as Z-dropped bananas.

Your best stage in this MU is probably something like Lylat. It gives you plenty of horizontal space to run away with, which is what you will be camping with as opposed to vertical space. That and SV should be your two best stages. FD/BF are terrible for you. PS1 can be good for you as well due to the stalling nature of the stage. CS/Delfino would most likely be beneficial for ICs.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,205
Location
Rainbow Cruise
#3
I agree with the MU ratio, but I disagree with some of the stuff you're saying.

Diddy has some really good edgeguards on ICs: a peanut hit/banana hit will desynch ICs for a bit and if you try to react with a recovery move then it's auto death for nana and possible death/big punishment for popo, if you wait so your resynched again then you've fallen a bit which gives us another chance to gimp or kill you or nana. I'm not sure if this is frequent with other chars, but fair and bair can hit only one of the climbers out of squall so it's an easy kill against the other since they automatically get put in freefall. Ice Climbers can also gimp Diddy with an IB if Diddy angles his up-b wrong, which won't happen that frequently, but it will happen, but also out of our side-b if we recover low with that forcing us to recover low with up-b also. Ice Climbers can also Bungie Jump or do that desynched pivot drop edge grab thing (you did to me), but both of those are situational also and are still beatable. Both chars have some tricks to gimp/edgeguard the other that are situational, I feel the situation appears for Diddy frequent enough to be able to say that Diddy can edgeguard/gimp ICs pretty decently. As long as are conservative with our double jump off stage and don't go out too far with it I think we can avoid popo counter attacking us pretty decently. Nana does do some random BS stuff offstage but we can also get a spike in every now and then.

I think ICs can juggle us pretty well, squall is much better than Diddy hump to avoid juggling (actually has a hitbox to guard them) and we have really bad mobility. Your Uair is much better than any other move we have for juggling you guys. But yeah, our side-b is better in most MUs for getting to the ground than other MUs since ICs aren't really THAT fast so can't punish it as well as other chars can.

I definitely don't think ICs use bananas better than Diddy or even like top 5, usually if ICs get bananas I'll just camp near the ledge since if I get hit I'll still be safe since I'll land on the ledge and i still have a chance of trying to catch it back or something. Our monkey kick is also slightly disjointed and it's safe on shield if we buffer it so we have no lag and can jump before we hit the ground, it's a really good tool against ICs because it separates well, especially if we have a banana in our hand to follow up with it. Dash attack is bad in this MU unless we can get a hit with bananas or something on one of them, dash attack can be difficult to punish on shield (though not impossible and especially if there's two like you said) and if we do get grabbed then we can usually mash out before nana is back up and ready from that trip unless we get like CGed or something (though the banana can mess up the CG depending on the situation of the grab, they can still grab armor over it sometimes, even still that banana can also hinder nana when she's trying to get back up to catch up with popo, there's a lot of variable you have to look out for when you're dash attacking this MU).

Yeah, z dropped, dodge dropped, dthrown bananas and bairs are really good in this MU

I haven't really tried Lylat too much against ICs because I don't really like the stage that much, but I do think it's good for us in the MU, only thing that messes us up really is that the stage tilting can mess with our side-b resulting in lag or extra lag than we normally have from our side-b (both grab and kick). My favorite stage in this MU is probably RC (except against esam, I really like PS1). PS1 is like a mix of FD's good qualities and Lylat's good qualities for us in the MU. The platform locations (in the neutral transformation, that is) is pretty much always accessible for us no matter where we are which gives us some nice landing options and the open middle space gives us room to keep our momentum going and get some nice desynchs between the Ice Climbers. All of the transformations help us IMO except maybe the grassland one, the small slopes hurt our side-b again and I feel it's slightly harder to approach here if we need to. FD is definitely our worse stage though, we need places to land. I used to think this stage was good for us since we can keep out momentum going here and keep them desynched, but it won't matter that much if ICs can manage our bananas well. They also outcamp us here.




If the ICs can't MANAGE bananas then we'll usually wreck the ICs, but if they can manage them then it makes the MU much, much harder. Note that I'm saying banana management, not banana usage or banana keep away game or something. It's if a banana hits their shield or hits them and how much they can turn that situation into their own advantage.
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,213
Location
Pika?
#4
Hitting ICs out of squall with only one getting hit is prevalent in one-hit moves that don't linger too long.

Dash attack isn't too good when barely separated because it is still a large frame commitment and creates opportunity to punish, and it doesn't do too much damage if you have to back off immediately after it.

The only thing I meant by the using bananas better thing is the threat. The threat of most characters with a banana is like...2 hits or a small CG or grab combo (Most people aren't good at the infinite and it is really hard to set that **** up if you aren't ZSS). ICs kill you. That's pretty ****ing frightening. If you camp by the ledge when we have bananas, we can pressure you either off-stage or closer because we have projectiles that track the ground.

As a rule, most ICs shouldn't be squalling above stage unless they are avoiding somebody who is off-stage and actively edgeguarding. Belay and low Squalls are much safer. So yeah, edgeguarding only works if the player being edgeguarded messes up pretty badly or gets put in a god-awful situation.
 

Zinoto

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
1,565
Location
Michigan
#5
I would go with this being an even MU.

We have the tools and speed to avoid you fairly well and can keep them separated pretty decently as well. I don't think :popo: controls items better than we do. We can keep much better control of them and have more reliable set ups, however, the set ups you have yield a higher reward. Banana desynchs are dangerous but can be telegraphed.

I think both characters can edge guard each other fairly well, but diddy's range for it extends further. Fair will eat right through squall hammer, as well as thrown bananas. We may not necessarily get a gimp/edgehog, but it'll put you in a bad position. I've played Delux, Roller, Lain, as well as the billion other ICs in MI (lol everyone has a pocket IC) and, with the exception of Lux, the MU gets tough when the IC knows how to pressure well. I think not having that "camp for 8 mins" attitude really helps in this MU, you definitely need to camp, but once you get an opening we have to take it. With bananas and our broken aerials we can fight pretty well against IC.

We also have a couple of tricks against IC that help a lot on this MU. We can drop a banana if we get grabbed by inputting the I-bomb buttons, do that you will trip. If you recover with squall hammer from a low position, we can dtilt before you get above the ledge and clip one of them so that the other remains in free fall. Charged peanuts knock you out of hammer and keep one of you in free fall. If you recover with bungee we can run off bair for the gimp on popo. Pummeling knocks the other away, which splits them.

Against Delux, he knows like a million set ups for grabs with or without bananas. He also can buffer his throws over bananas consistently, but not many (if any) are super technical like him. His weakness is actually fighting diddy, which I feel you and Vinnie are a lot stronger in.

We need to watch out for the bungee stall gimmick and being knocked off platforms. Also banana desynchs and dash attacks.

For stages I like:smashville: and :lylatcruise:. Battlefield isn't bad for us just not ideal. Avoid FD though.

:phone:
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,213
Location
Pika?
#6
I think you are stressing your edgeguarding a little too much. If the Diddy and ICs are both playing safe, neither are going to be off-stage enough for those to matter. Grab set-ups are pointless in this MU because bananas are a good Get Out of Jail Free card, but we can still get them. The main IC objective will be to whittle down your patience and keep making a larger lead via poking through platforms or slow chasing. At some point diddy has to approach and his options are REALLY sub-optimal. The fact that ICs definitely control the pace of the match, I would say, gives ICs the small advantage.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,205
Location
Rainbow Cruise
#7
Hitting ICs out of squall with only one getting hit is prevalent in one-hit moves that don't linger too long.

Dash attack isn't too good when barely separated because it is still a large frame commitment and creates opportunity to punish, and it doesn't do too much damage if you have to back off immediately after it.

The only thing I meant by the using bananas better thing is the threat. The threat of most characters with a banana is like...2 hits or a small CG or grab combo (Most people aren't good at the infinite and it is really hard to set that **** up if you aren't ZSS). ICs kill you. That's pretty ****ing frightening. If you camp by the ledge when we have bananas, we can pressure you either off-stage or closer because we have projectiles that track the ground.

As a rule, most ICs shouldn't be squalling above stage unless they are avoiding somebody who is off-stage and actively edgeguarding. Belay and low Squalls are much safer. So yeah, edgeguarding only works if the player being edgeguarded messes up pretty badly or gets put in a god-awful situation.
dash attack isn't that great, you're right, but it's pretty much one of our only mix ups from a dash grab instead so we're kind of forced to throw it in every now and then.

We won't get pressured completely offstage because you won't have any moves that pressure us off stage when you have a banana in your hand, only onto the ledge which i'm fine with. If you're pressuring us towards you we can usually just bait the banana throw pretty safely without getting hit by it.

Peanuts were the only thing I listed that would be strictly for above stage recovering. Banana throws/banana plucks will go down below stage and can still catch ICs. Run off Fair is also pretty easy to hit if they recover low (although we'd be in a bad spot if we did miss).
 

CYVE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
389
Location
Germany
#8
I think you are stressing your edgeguarding a little too much. If the Diddy and ICs are both playing safe, neither are going to be off-stage enough for those to matter. Grab set-ups are pointless in this MU because bananas are a good Get Out of Jail Free card, but we can still get them. The main IC objective will be to whittle down your patience and keep making a larger lead via poking through platforms or slow chasing. At some point diddy has to approach and his options are REALLY sub-optimal. The fact that ICs definitely control the pace of the match, I would say, gives ICs the small advantage.
What's your personal opinion on the IC/Pit MU?

// just curious (You can also send me a PN if you like)
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,213
Location
Pika?
#9
0 with an LGL, +2 without one.

Don't post in this thread unless it is about Diddy vs ICs though, completely irrelevant.
 

GOofyGV

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2011
Messages
1,108
Location
Netherlands
#10
I agree with the -1 for diddy.
Diddy is not the character that can use his moves without risking a grab.
diddy can't really win on the ground and we still have an *** air mobility which leads in landing reads.
We have a bit of a camp game but IC have thier ice blocks so it's not like they always have to uproach us.
 
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
754
Location
Pensacola, FL
#12
The match up is +1 us on every stage except PS1 where it's +5 Player-1.
No but seriously ban RC and it's pretty much in our favor. +1.

I'll post later, but keep in mind that I'm not the best at this match up.
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,279
Location
Long Beach, CA
#14
The Matchup Chart says it's even

Please stop saying you want to desync the ice climbers. You want to separate them. Ice Climbers desync all the time and sometimes it's a good thing. Getting separated is a bad thing for an ice climber player usually.
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
#15
I think you are stressing your edgeguarding a little too much. If the Diddy and ICs are both playing safe, neither are going to be off-stage enough for those to matter. Grab set-ups are pointless in this MU because bananas are a good Get Out of Jail Free card, but we can still get them. The main IC objective will be to whittle down your patience and keep making a larger lead via poking through platforms or slow chasing. At some point diddy has to approach and his options are REALLY sub-optimal. The fact that ICs definitely control the pace of the match, I would say, gives ICs the small advantage.
Diddy doesn't need to be on platforms or even approach though. Also, what stages are you taking into account? What if Diddy bans BF or YI? I don't think ICs have any stage really that would help them enough so bananas land on platforms.

Also you can't really say you wait for Diddy to lose his patience from a MU point of view... that's really just player dependant. What if the Diddy just throws stuff at you so you have more % and if you have to approach your Nana get's *****.


For ICs many matchups have the "glass cannon" factor. For ICs AND their opponent. You **** Nana and they **** you. It's almost always like that. So IC stuff is pretty inconsistent.
 

Zinoto

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
1,565
Location
Michigan
#16
Alright (just as an update) we have 3 players that say even and 4 that say -1. Cyve, what's your take on the MU?
2. Luigiplayer, what stage recommendations would you give, and what ratio would you put on it.
3. Vinnie get in here! :yeahboi:

:phone:
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,213
Location
Pika?
#18
Considering that ICs have superior ground control, Diddy should always run to platforms. Once that happens, we will most likely deal more damage, although sometimes you will deal damage. If you stay on the ground, we will catch you because ICs stuff. Yeah.
 
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
754
Location
Pensacola, FL
#20
Preface:

For starters, do NOT be afraid of the grab.

Diddy is a character based entirely around controlling his opponent's ground options. He thrives on trapping characters on the ground and punishing landings. He has hands-down, the BEST OoS options in the game, and the fact that he can get a punish off almost any shielded move is retardedly good.

Unfortunately, Ice Climbers game revolves around grabbing, which beats shield.

As with every Ice Climbers match up, let's talk about separation. As in, how easy is it for Diddy to separate the Climbers, and once they ARE separated, can he easily kill Nana?

I think he can. Pretty easily, actually. -.- His d-tilt and u-tilt can send them in different directions and both come out EXTREMELY fast, his dash attack is excellent as a SPARINGLY used mix up, or when their shields are low, and his grab -> instant b-throw is seriously like 25 frames total. Crazy fast.
However, I don't think he can kill Nana as easily as most Diddy's believe. The most common way that Diddys use is spiking her, but as ESAM said, her erratic jump patterns can make her a little difficult to predict. Besides that, most of the time she is set up for a spike, it's because Diddy landed a grab. If the IC player is intelligent with ice blocks and jab, it can be pretty hard for Diddy to get in to get the grab.
I see so many players (not only Diddy) hitting Nana the incorrect way when she's running along stage, too. Her DI when separated from Popo farther than about three body lengths away is ALWAYS towards Popo.
So if, say, the scenario is like this.

N.......D...................P

On FD.
Don't hit Nana left. Start charging a f-smash RIGHT, and let her run through you. Her DI is in a right direction at this point, so hitting her left will give her good DI.

Don't try to play your mid ranged spacing banana bs against a good Ice Climbers (AKA not me).
Any IC player that uses Ice Blocks effectively to control the ground will **** you at mid range. Your much better off using safe approaches. Don't be afraid to get in there. You have safe options.

This sentence is an awkward segue into the next section: Bananas.

Bananas are what make or break this match up. If an ICs player knows how to keep your bananas from you and effectively use them to pressure you in shield and net grabs with them, you're probably going to lose, and it is the reason I think this match up is +1 ICs.

We have SO MUCH STUFF WE CAN DO THAT IT'S ********.
We also have two "characters" so we can get both nanas and camp under a platform REALLY HARD.
A good Ice Block while desynced can stop a banana mid flight and net a grab -> Nana shorthop instathrow down (Popo d-throws) -> Buffered Dash grab at lower percents.

Retreated bair beats your fair, by the way. Hue
huehuehue

I don't find blizzard to be an awesome move in this match up. When I'm Sopo I like it, but not really anywhere else.

Speaking of Sopo, he still has a few options against Diddy Kong on his own.

CG from 0-60 ish with a guaranteed f-smash at the edge, or buffered hyphen smash on stage.

Bair is still effective as Sopo, and we have plenty of shenanigans we can pull with blizzard mixups and other stuffs.

You don't gain a huge advantage from having just Sopo, unlike most other characters. The only significant advantage is that we can't 0-death you anymore.

On the edge, you have a pretty difficult time edgeguarding us if we're careful and mix it up. But getting on stage is a pain. I feel like d-tilt beats all of our options and is SUPER good pressure. You guys don't use that move enough. It's incredible.
From our perspective, we actually kinda CAN edge guard you. Bungee jumping and desynced Nana ledge grabs can ruin your whole charge up-b thing you usually do. If it's just Sopo, he can fall off d-air you for a kill. LOL. Ice blocks can gimp you if you aren't careful, and our d-tilt, if it hits around 80 and your dj is gone, can put you in a TERRIBLE position. It isn't easy to ledge guard you though, that's for sure.

I'm really tired, so this whole thing probably didn't make much sense or was all common sense stuff, but it's my perspective. P-1 seems to value my opinion but he's a troll so take it with a grain of salt.

Overall, +1 Ice Climbers if they know their banana game. Even otherwise.
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,279
Location
Long Beach, CA
#23
It's really hard to do, but the SNL is possible. I only am consistent enough with it to guarantee an fsmash though which helps make killing slightly viable lol
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,279
Location
Long Beach, CA
#25
It's like footstool > item throw down > Item Catch ( not air dodge) > drift > item throw down > item catch > land > craq walk > repeat

Let me double check, I actually haven't practiced it in awhile and I might be doing thigns out of order in my head lol
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,279
Location
Long Beach, CA
#29
Well I mean, an IC player has to be able to do the SNL for it to matter at all >_>

I don't think anyone in the world can at the moment.
 

Vinnie

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
4,073
Location
Long Island, NY!
#35
Haven't read anything yet, but here's my input:

Iceblocks are usually a better idea than blizzard. I mainly try to use nair and iceblocks a lot.

My main CG is bthrow fthrow.

up B is really good at edgeguarding him. It can also frametrap him into a grab if he up Bs way higher than the ledge

I feel like this MU is +1. He has throw->spike on nana, but all in all, if you have superior banana control, ICs can shut down diddy. I haven't mastered such banana control yet, but the Japanese climbers are really good at it. ESAM is good in the MU too.
 

Zinoto

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
1,565
Location
Michigan
#37
Alright, we got some good MU information so far but we have some posters that have not showed up yet.

NAMEBAIT: Roller, Hylian, Smoom get in here and discuss :yeahboi:
 

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4,372
#38
This Match up is even. Diddy is good at separating ICs and his spike is great for getting rid of Nana. Ice blocks may stop most of Diddy's ground approaches, but Diddy can still approach from the air. Aerial bananas are great in this match up. Just don't get grabbed and you should live to high percentages.

tip: If you have nowhere to land, a good mix up option would be to footstool the ICs. Just don't get too predictable with it
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,213
Location
Pika?
#39
How can you approach from the air considering pivot grab beats every aerial?

You can also get grabbed out of footstool, btw, since you dip down.
 

tibs7

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 13, 2009
Messages
2,889
#40
nobody really listens to jebus...

anyway IC's defs beat us +1
ice blocks can gimp and make nana's worse. dash attack really unsafe on shield.
even if we hit them with a banana it doesnt guarantee us a kill coz the other one might not of been hit.
they have pivot grab which beats everything.
they can use our bananas for great grab set ups which is auto kill.
but yeah once nana dies its like +5 to us
 
Top