Bad Idea Mafia Vol. 3 - Ovah!?

[KevinM]

I was under the impression quickhammers cost town the game last time. If they did not ignore me.

But they did. I read up.

You brush what I say aside by saying I was 'bullying the mechanics' - what does this mean? Why is it not a good thing? Is working as a team not far more useful than working solo? Is scum's power not far reduced if we do not allow quickshots? It is. Why would we go against this?

You're using a strawman argument here, keep in mind I am not DH or whatever that will scream fallacy just to pretend I'm doing something but to say that because I said I disliked you trying to bully the mechanics of the game, does not mean I in any way have inked that working as a team is less solid then working solo.

 

[KevinM]

Also by bullying the mechanics I mean you are basically saying that if we use the mechanics of our day kill without a full vote, they are automatically killed the next day, that IS bullying the mechanics of the game.

 

[Swiss]

It works well if my scumbuddies aren't *******.

Someone give me indie.

I'll skip the rest of the question.

 

[Swiss]

Regardless of whether I am 'bullying the mechanics' (which by your definition I do not deny) - what I want to know is whether you have a problem with this. If so, which by your responses I would assume so, I would ask why.

WRT #41 Relatively simple question: Why not impose strict rules against what cost town the game last time? Regardless of whether you think I strawmanned or not, you should make your stances clear.

 

[KevinM]

My stance is clear, hard to make it a lot clearer then "If I don't agree with where Town goes, I'm shooting"

 

[KevinM]

The reason is because I don't trust town to be good enough to not be manipulated in a game that is easily faked as broken to people that just trust number theory.

 

[Omni]

kevin makes a good point

what has kevin said that is unclear, Swiss?

 

[Swiss]

It wasn't an issue of clarity, rather why. Scum could easily use his 'excuse' and go against us, so why not take out this option, and trust that town are effective?

He answered the question.

How do you feel your question to me added to the exchange, and what did you hope to gain from it?

 

[Nicholas1024]

@Nicholas, My out of no where shot was moreso boredom with that game then anything else..

I dislike this, just on principle (not as in I find it scummy, but as in I find it really annoying, considering that Ronike was on the track of scum-Tom, and we were actually getting somewhere!)

*snip*

Are you going to Meta this entire game and be useless or what this time?

Meta the entire game? I'm simply saying, that if anyone, ANYONE quickshots without the approval of a majority of town, I will shoot them the following day. That sort of stuff utterly murdered town the last two games (you were in it, you should know!), and I'm just not letting it happen again this game.

 

[Omni]

huh
if it wasn't an issue of clarity them im not sure why you said you were unclear
my question, ironically, has given clarity to what you meant
id hope to see you if you would respond with fluff or with bad justification

 

[Omni]

also nich i understand what you're saying
but u do realize people said the exact same thing [what you're saying] every game as well, right
that doesn't stop people from doing what they want to do
and responding with another quickshot is equally as anti-town

 

[Nicholas1024]

also nich i understand what you're saying
but u do realize people said the exact same thing [what you're saying] every game as well, right
that doesn't stop people from doing what they want to do
and responding with another quickshot is equally as anti-town

I know people were saying "Don't quickshoot" in past games, but I don't think anyone took it to the extent Swiss and I are taking it this time around. I know shooting someone who just shot isn't optimal play, but if it prevents future quickshots, then it'll be well worth the cost.

 

[Omni]

hm, ok
but i think it's an empty threat
because i think quickshooting a quickshooter makes that person just as guilty
especially when the person who made a quickshot has a high % of being town

 

[KevinM]

Imo smartest scum play would be to let a quick shot happen and then shoot the person under the blanket statement of Swiss said so.

If anything with the assassin role, you're just giving them an out.

 

[Chuckie]

@Swiss/Nich: If someone shoots then they are 90.9% confirmed as town. And as soon as someone shoots a cop can investigate them to check if they are the assassin. In this game the Godfather doesn't have a daykill and the assassin should turn up guiilty.

So shooting someone on principle is really dumb and you should feel dumb by advocating the policy.

 

[Chuckie]

Wait where'd I pull that statistic from. It's actually 6 in 7 (or about 85% chance).

I agree on principle that quickshooting is dumb, but shooting the quickshooter is even dumber.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Here's my question to you guys then. Suppose I immediately, without any forewarning whatsoever, turned around and shot (to pick a random person) Frozenflame. Since you seem to disapprove of shooting the guy that pulls a stunt like that, what do you do in response to that, and to prevent similar idiotic stunts in the future?

 

[Chuckie]

I'd conclude that there is an incredibly high chance that you are 1. town and 2. mentally impaired. But I know you wouldn't do that.

I'd only shoot you if a cop came forward and claimed a guilty.

Killing people to prove a point or enforce some "system" is dumb if they are very likely to be town.

I doubt scum would quick shoot on D1 anyway. It just makes them a cop target really.

 

[Nicholas1024]

I'd conclude that there is an incredibly high chance that you are 1. town and 2. mentally impaired. But I know you wouldn't do that.

I'd only shoot you if a cop came forward and claimed a guilty.

Killing people to prove a point or enforce some "system" is dumb if they are very likely to be town.

I doubt scum would quick shoot on D1 anyway. It just makes them a cop target really.

Here's the problem though, there were about 4 of those mentally impaired people last game. How do you prevent the next one?

 

[KevinM]

By learning from their mistakes.

 

[Chuckie]

Double post, I just had a thought.

If a vanilla townie is going to be "lynched", as in a planned day kill, should the lynchee shoot? It wouldn't discriminate them from the scum assassin, but it would be a vig shot from someone who knows their own alignment. I mean that the townie knows that he's a townie, basically. Or should a vanilla just lie down and take the lynch shot, so we can confirm their alignment through death?

The problem with this is that we have 2 cops and 2 bombs who risk getting shot if a vanilla townie on death row decides to shoot instead of be shot. Ofc the person getting shot could ask their target to claim, but forcing a lot of claims sounds bad because it narrows down the chances of mafia killing cops.

Here's the problem though, there were about 4 of those mentally impaired people last game. How do you prevent the next one?

Your system is more likely to hurt town then help it.

We should just hope that everyone is smart enough NOT to do quick shoot like that as it is bad play for town.

The system is great if no one ever quick shoots, but I am highly against immediately killing people who do.

 

[Omni]

giving townies the ability to shoot at will
it's a bad idea
hence the concept of the game
not much u can do about it
cept deal with it

 

[CT Chia]

Omni, if the game had just started and you had to shoot someone
aka, who would you shoot without looking at any posts so far in the game
who would it be and why

 

[Omni]

hm
idk
why do you ask

 

[Chuckie]

Chibo you should answer your own question too while you're at it. And make a comment about Swiss' playstyle so far.

 

[Omni]

ok so
id shoot mentos or tandora
for catching them both lurking just now

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

giving townies the ability to shoot at will
it's a bad idea
hence the concept of the game
not much u can do about it
cept deal with it

This post summarizes this entire debate perfectly.

Bad Idea mafia is a game that is designed around the empowerment of uniformed individuals to make game changing decisions with single posts. Relative to the design of typical mafia, this is a bad idea.

Obviously quick-shooting is a terrible idea and extremely anti-town. Anyone who argues against this is either trolling or just fundamentally doesn't understand how to play mafia. We shouldn't be debating this.

However, what Kevin is proposing is NOT quick-shooting. He's saying that if he believes the town is probably going to decide to shoot someone he very strongly believes to be town, and he has a very strong scum read on another player, he will do what he can with the power given to him and shoot the player he feels is scummy.

The games is fundamentally designed to allow this to happen. Having hosted this game two times here and redesigning it far more times than that (especially to get from the abortion of a setup that was my original game to the far better game that was my Remix setup), I feel pretty confident that yes, quickshots WILL lose the game for town, but shots that go against the general consensus WILL NOT.

I also agree that immediately spite shooting someone who shoots against the general consensus of the town is even MORE moronic than quick shooting.

Basically here's the way I see it. If you're going to go against the general consensus of the town and shoot someone, there are two very fair and important expectations to bear in mind:

1.) If you do not provide us with a strong, detailed case with good, thorough analysis explaining why you think the town is being mislead, why the target of the town currently is probably town, and why your shot choice is most likely scum, you will likely be shot very early the next day.

2.) If you do not hit scum, you will be heavily scrutinized the next day and, though not as likely as if you fail to meet expectation #1, there is a seriously high chance that you will be shot the next day.

More simply put, explain your **** and don't **** up. If you don't, you're putting yourself in a bad position the next day and you're directly damaging the town, both of which are anti-town behaviors and justify the likelihood of your *** getting capped.

We have the ability to daykill for a reason, and that reason is that in this game players are supposed to be able to take matters into their own hands when they feel everyone else is being deceived. We should NOT be playing like the game wasn't designed this way and just pretend it's a normal mafia game with a strange lynching mechanic.

This doesn't mean I'm opposed to proxy-voting to keep track of where everyone stands as far as who the play is is concerned, however proxy votes shouldn't rule this game with an iron fist as Kevin has been saying. I agree that Swiss' attempt to strongman his take on how the game should be played out right off the bat is completely unnecessary. Seems like a lame scum attempt to try to establish order and get townie points early for championing a concept that most people are likely to agree with (because of the setups history) without actually contributing anything distinctly unique or groundbreaking.

Apologies for not posting on the hydra account but afaik it isn't made yet and I'll be going V/LA until Monday night after this post. Hopefully it'll be made by the time I get back and this won't happen again.

 

[Swiss]

Yet no-one considers that had we agreed to shoot any quickshooters (copping them is better, I forgot that) the threat of immediate death would have meant no scum would have done it.

Shame.

 

[Chuckie]

Wtf at Chibo viewing this thread for 30min+ after I ask him stuff and then disappearing.

Yet no-one considers that had we agreed to shoot any quickshooters (copping them is better, I forgot that) the threat of immediate death would have meant no scum would have done it.

Shame.

Imo town is more likely to quick shoot on Day 1 then scum anyway. Therefore you're more likely to hit town by shooting. All you're doing is taking "don't quick shoot" to the next level that leaves room to cause townie deaths.

 

[Swiss]

Yet if we AGREED that quickshooting would result in the shooters death it is a direct disincentive for scum to risk a quickshot. Unless a scum was going to quickshoot bus....?

Clearly quickshooting WOULD have been somewhat of a towntell before we all pointed it out and nullified it, not it won't be.

 

[Swiss]

EBWOP: now it won't be.

 

[Chuckie]

This is argument is idioctic and should be dropped, but are you honestly suggesting that in the scenario that EVERYONE agreed to shoot quickshooters, and then someone quickshot... you would tell everyone to retract their stance and NOT shoot the quick shooter because quick shooting is a town tell?

A yes or no will suffice.

tl;dr: don't quick shoot, just don't.

 

[Swiss]

Maybe.

Problem?

 

[Omni]

i like proxy voting
because it keeps track of where people's suspicions lie
vote counts are important
for identifying paper trails

 

[Tandora]

Sorry for being slow guys. I was busy all day yesterday.
@Omni - Is it lurking if I haven't even looked at the page yet?
@ Kat - Why should I trust you to be friends when the last game we played (NBC) you complained you wanted to hold hands and were scum?
@ Swiss - IGMEOU
@ KevinM - Still don't like your "I'm better than the rest of you attitude". Null read so far.

Assuming we're doing psuedocounts, who would be in charge of that? Since there is no official voting system this game, I assume the mod would not be responsible. Will we have to trust a fellow player to keep accurate account?

 

[Swiss]

Surely we can all do the 'votecounts', and not leave it in the hands of one player.

Also, elaborate on why you have your eye on me.

 

[Omni]

@Omni - Is it lurking if I haven't even looked at the page yet?

y a

 

[Xivii]

Swiss, saying that all players would agree that a quickshooter would be shot the next day and then when the time actually comes to say just kidding is dumb. Especially since someone could simply quickshoot the quickshooter before it was retracted. Plus it just doesn't make sense at all.

Also Gheb made the game private for a reason. Townies are given a lot of power and can screw up the game, but most the players here are competent enough to play the game right (I say most because Chibo is in the game). Also as chuckie said, someone quick shooting is likely to be town and if someone does quickshoot they can be investigated. If assassin then outed. So yeah I disagree with you and Nich.

Also Swiss what do you think about Omni and his playstyle so far? You asked him questions in #28, but then just dropped it despite him giving half *** answers. Did you gain anything from the responses he gave to your questions?

what a bad idea...

and btw that's not a question

Who's your character?

@Kevin: Why is it a bad idea for bombs to claim?

@Chuckie: You already know so long as it's not a Zen/Vandy -> MetaKirby FF6 type of friendship >_>. Or NBC...

Also what do you think of Swiss so far?

 

[Ronike]

Is it striking anyone else really odd that Swiss not only avoided the super troll, but came out strongest against it?

 

[Swiss]

Forewarning - My laptop has just broken. I may not have internet access except for brief intervals in the mornings for a while.

@ Mod - be on the lookout for replacments, I cannot guarantee I'll be able to play. Apologies to players.