Bad Idea Mafia Redux! GAME OVER!

[Nicholas1024]

This is awful. This is just dead awful. No. Why would the bomb be rewired if he just claimed? And even if he is rewired, why would that make it okay to shoot him?

You fail at logic. Suppose we didn't shoot someone who claimed bomb.

Case 1: They are mafia.
Obviously bad.

Case 2: They are indeed a bomb.
When night falls, they get rewired. Basically giving mafia a pair of extra kills for later. Also, we can't trust them completely simply because they might be mafia. Add in the godfather, and that's basically a 5-kill alpha strike just sitting there.

 

[Overswarm]

Claiming bomb/cop/vtownie in this game is a shell game.

To not shoot a bomb on claim makes it difficult, as if they get rewired town gets screwed later.

That said, claiming bomb is an easy way to get an attempt at rewiring done, thus disarming one of the other bombs if you aren't a bomb and it's attempted.


Basically flip a coin and decide if you want to lie.



@ mod:
If a bomb is disarmed due to a faulty rewiring, does he gain the ability to daykill?

 

[eauxlune]

If someone claims bomb, that could theoretically clear them of scum status. If someone shoots the bomb and it's rewired, good chances are the shooter is either the godfather, because he knew about the rewiring and thus took advantage, or an idiot, because he shot a bomb.

Nonetheless, if you know that someone is a bomb, why shoot them early in the game? Even if they get rewired, why are you shooting a bomb and getting townies unnecessarily killed?! If that bomb gets rewired and shot, we know who one of the scum is.

ITT: there is no one definitive strategy for any of the roles, and that's what makes it interesting and fun.

 

[eauxlune]

My above post is just presenting a counterpoint in the form of an alternate philosophy to "kill all bombs!"

The bomb is never informed that he is disarmed, to my knowledge.

 

[Omnididdle]

OS needs to make the daykill today or be killed. IMO at least.

agreed.

OS reminds me of me when I was mafia in the original BIM. i basically came up with this elaborate plan that purposely omitted small but key details that put mafia in an advantageous situation. i actually just pulled the same stunt in a current mafia game in BBR that just ended.

tom knows what i mean. mafia wins this game by using math. everything will be calculated for the most part.

so yea, Overswarm needs to shoot our next top candidate for lynch toDay. i dont see the gf putting that much attention on himself so best case scenario he's a goon

fyi, having scummy players shoot does not clear them thanks to being GF, but if we're right about our suspicions it can force GF to get a 24 hour cooldown. pretty essential for preventing double Day/Night kills.


--------

i also think we're going the wrong way by discussing the way to approach this game. for now we should just play mafia like regular mafia until we start to agree on who needs to be shot. once that becomes clear we have that person claim and take care of it from that point on

im at my gf's place until Monday so i wont be too active till then. ill do my best

 

[CT Chia]

fyi, having scummy players shoot does not clear them thanks to being GF, but if we're right about our suspicions it can force GF to get a 24 hour cooldown. pretty essential for preventing double Day/Night kills.

I didn't think about this till u mentioned it, and its a really good point

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

@ mod:
If a bomb is disarmed due to a faulty rewiring, does he gain the ability to daykill?

Diasarmed bombs will NOT gain the ability to daykill if that are defused and they will NOT be informed if that have been defused OR re-wired.

Another note: The tactician role I have posted in the OP is an outdated version. I forgot to copy and paste the version I decided on for some reason. The only change between the two versions is that the version that will go active in this game will be able to use BOTH, ONE, OR NEITHER of his abilities Sabotage Investigation and Re-wire Bomb each night.

I will edit the role posted in the OP to reflect this.

Game is still on track to start @ 1 A.M. EST July 3rd.

Also OS, you remind of of this guy from :15 seconds onward: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhcdBuTLk6s&feature=related

=P

I knew you'd try to break it like that. Feels good knowing I pre-empted it.

Also to clarify for the last time: COPS CAN NEVER EVER DAYKILL IN THIS GAME. I know the language in the role PM is suggestive of it, but it was just a bit of flavour.

The only roles with the capability of daykilling are normal townies, the godfather, and the inheritor if he chooses to inherit the abilities of the godfather.

 

[eauxlune]

I can break these cuffs!! Ghaaaaaaa!

 

[CT Chia]

so this game hasnt started yet?

 

[eauxlune]

The game will begin @ 1 A.M. on July 3rd, after I post the D1 start post.
.

This should answer that.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

No the game has not started yet, but everyone has been sent their role PMs.

so are days infinite length until someone shoots?

lol i find it funny that OS thought of all that and missed the one line that kind of ruined it

This game will not have any preset deadlines. I as the moderator will impose/extend/remove deadlines as I see fit based on the game's activity. However, as a result of the very nature of this game, I can't really see this being an issue.

 

[CT Chia]

why not just start it now?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Because obviously when days start and end is a very large part of this game because of its mechanics.

I announced the start time earlier today to give everyone at least a chance to see when it would begin and if possible, set time aside to be online if they wanted to be there for the very beginning, considering it might not be very long for the day to end.

I will not change the start time in order to be fair and ensure that all players have the same expectations about when the game will begin.

 

[Ronike]

Omni (that's what I'm calling your hydra, I can't bring myself to call someone "omnididdle"), :D summed up all my thoughts on it better than I could have.

Teemo, I think I see where your coming from now that I think on it and agree with you, funny seeing how I was originally posting in favor of autoshooting bombs. Think on it harder guys. Guys as in everyone who is a proponent of auto shoot bombs

 

[Teemo]

LOL, I don't think Chibo thought that one through.

 

[Teemo]

so yea, Overswarm needs to shoot our next top candidate for lynch toDay. i dont see the gf putting that much attention on himself so best case scenario he's a goon

I agree with you that Mafia will win this game on their strategic and mathematical abilities, and I will add that town will lose this game if they do not cooperate. I should re-iterate that a single ******** quickshot could completely ruin the game for town. Shoot a bomb? Four town deaths are on you.

However, I would like to remind everyone that the game hasn't even started, and we should not have already decided anyone should shoot anyone. It's far too early to say "OS should shoot the next most suspicious player." It is way too early for you to be saying that, and that sticks out for me sorely.

 

[Ronike]

Meh, the game has started, we just aren't allowed to shoot yet.

So you don't think os' plan that woulda have resulted in 3+ free kills for mafia that he has passed off as "oh I missed that rule" isn't suspicious at all? This is os we are talkin about, biggest rules lawyer on dgs. Frankly, It seems real off to me.

 

[Omnididdle]

yea game has started without the "official" start

i dont like it either, ronike, but i dont think we should concentrate too much more on it. just make sure that's dully noted

i think a better question is which one of these parrots were the scummiest:

So basically, you didn't break the game at all. And you're advising random lynching over scumhunting.

Am I right so far?

LOL @ "a crapshoot in town's favor..." by crapshoot do you mean a time where you are forced to scumhunt?

Not only did you misread the rules and screw up trying to break the game, but you also advocated breaking the rules to get yourself modkilled for your faction's favor (and failed in the process!). After ignoring everything in your post that is null now that you realize that modkilled bombs are treated as daykilled bombs (which is a *lot*), you are just suggesting that people listen to the previously cleared players and shoot who they are told, and if they refuse, they must be investigated because they could be scum (or, they could be townies who think they have a town read on the player they are being told to kill).

Are you the worst thing ever to happen to DGames?

to

Gheb, bombs shouldn't claim period.

So lemme get this straight os, before you were corrected you wanted us to basically not play mafia and instead play Russian roulette? And in addition, you "misread" the rules in such a way that following your plan would have resulted in losing essentially up to half the town? Yeah. Sure.

OS needs to make the daykill today or be killed. IMO at least.

Yes gheb, thank you for telling me something I talked about extensively last game and that actually happened

os, seriously, just play the **** game.

to

Cops cant daykill. Spend less time complaining about the rules and trying to break them, and more time reading the rules.

Stop trying to break the game. You won't be successful anyhow. FF has worked on this game for quite some time now as well as ran extensive numbers on it I know. Just play the game.

C'mon OS, quit trying to break the blasted game. Even if you did somehow find a loophole, Frozen would just make a rules patch to fix it. In the meantime, you're just coming up with ridiculous schemes that help mafia way more than town.

Even if we did remove the bombs via modkill without an extra townie dying, we'd still be at 7 town, 3 scum on D4. Also, consider that mafia godfather can shoot to make it 4 town, 2 scum (after we shot him) and mafia inheritor exists... Basically we'd end up with 24 hours on D6 or so to shoot scum or lose. Bad Idea.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTkLA-5j0AA

GET.

****ING.

HYPE.

DAY ONE STARTS

There are no active cooldowns.

 

[Omnididdle]

*ducks under the nearest fat guy*

 

[Ronike]

I disagree that my "parrot" was as such. Teemo was poking fun and pointing out flaws, whereas the emphasis in mine (or at least where emphasis was meant to be) was criticism aimed at os for attempting to turn a dynamic gale into one with a static formulaic game and that I thought his misassumption was not a mistake at all. That being said, I did and do agree with the post that teemo made. Happy with the comparison?

Prolly shouldn't be making mafia posts this late...

 

[Teemo]

You fail at logic. Suppose we didn't shoot someone who claimed bomb.

Case 1: They are mafia.
Obviously bad.

Case 2: They are indeed a bomb.
When night falls, they get rewired. Basically giving mafia a pair of extra kills for later. Also, we can't trust them completely simply because they might be mafia. Add in the godfather, and that's basically a 5-kill alpha strike just sitting there.

If you ever find yourself saying that a hydra of Tom and Evil Eye fails at logic, you need to rethink your stance.

 

[Teemo]

Meh, the game has started, we just aren't allowed to shoot yet.

So you don't think os' plan that woulda have resulted in 3+ free kills for mafia that he has passed off as "oh I missed that rule" isn't suspicious at all? This is os we are talkin about, biggest rules lawyer on dgs. Frankly, It seems real off to me.

I don't think its enough to say okay guys we got our first kill.

 

[Teemo]

Also, Omni, you can't really fault someone for parroting me on those points @ OS... I was the first one to say it, but I'm **** sure it was on a lot of peoples' minds. Repeated incidents make a case.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

All bombs should be shot on claim. First off, if they're mafia that's obviously the play, if they aren't then they'll be rewired. Either way, SHOOT THEM!

This guy needs to either shoot or be shot toDay imo.

Gheb, how should daykills work? What should be our pattern for them?

There is no pattern? I think suspect people should shoot first to narrow down the chances of them being scum to 1/19th (or however many players are left).

Stop trying to break the game.

Stop trying to break the game.

C'mon OS, quit trying to break the blasted game.

Meaning if we could find a way to get rid of bombs and/or save bombs, that'd be pretty cool.

Saving a bomb means to lose a vig (only way to kill mafia) or a cop (unless we hit scum of course). The best case for a bomb is to get NKed.

To not shoot a bomb on claim makes it difficult, as if they get rewired town gets screwed later.

Holy ****, stop posting nonsense. This is exactly why claimed bombs should be investigated. As long as the cop(s) have a result on claimed bombs it's unimportant if they get rewired or not.

ITT: there is no one definitive strategy for any of the roles, and that's what makes it interesting and fun.

I don't see how this is the case. Bombs and (imo) the cops have a definite strategy - bombs try to get NKed over vigs / cops and cops try to rid us of claimed bomb WIFOM.

fyi, having scummy players shoot does not clear them thanks to being GF

It doesn't clear them completely. It does however narrow the chances down to 1/19th on D1. That's good enough a reason for me to have suspect people shoot first.

 

[Nicholas1024]

@Tom/Evil Eye
Until I can see logic behind your position, I maintain my stance. Could you please explain why town wouldn't want to auto-shoot bombs on claim?

@Gheb
Instead saying "This guy needs to die", would you guys please explain why? I understand that VT's/cops can fakeclaim bomb to try to get a defuse, but if we don't shoot people that claim bomb immediately, this opens up a very dangerous game of wifom.

And Gheb, do you realize that the godfather could quite easily fakeclaim bomb as well? And that he's immune to cop investigation? And that a bomb getting rewired STILL gives 2 extra deaths on NK? There's lots of little pieces here and there that you're ignoring/forgetting, and I don't like it.


Quick last note...

Would people quit with the blasted parroting accusations? About 80% or so of posts in a mafia game repeat at least some of what someone else has already said. If my opinions line up with someone else's, I'm still going to post them, regardless.

 

[Overswarm]

Holy ****, stop posting nonsense. This is exactly why claimed bombs should be investigated. As long as the cop(s) have a result on claimed bombs it's unimportant if they get rewired or not.

Um... It is still pretty important.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Here's an idea. What if instead of straight-out claiming townie/bomb/cop, we just claimed townie/can't shoot when needed? That way the mafia tactician has a tougher time rewiring bombs/sabotaging investigations.

 

[Chaco]

Here's an idea. What if instead of straight-out claiming townie/bomb/cop, we just claimed townie/can't shoot when needed? That way the mafia tactician has a tougher time rewiring bombs/sabotaging investigations.

That's an idea, but it also gives them a small pool for our cops.

 

[Omnididdle]

Also, Omni, you can't really fault someone for parroting me on those points @ OS... I was the first one to say it, but I'm **** sure it was on a lot of peoples' minds. Repeated incidents make a case.

Would people quit with the blasted parroting accusations? About 80% or so of posts in a mafia game repeat at least some of what someone else has already said. If my opinions line up with someone else's, I'm still going to post them, regardless.

both of you should know that parroting =/= auto-scumminess

however, parroting is a common tool used by scum. repeating or rephrasing an idea can show agreement, but repeating what has already been said can be an attempt to contribute without contributing.

which is exactly why i said, "let's find out which parrot is the scummiest"

@nick: nice made up statistic; don't be so dramatic. if your opinions line up with someone else you can also simply say "i agree". the fact that 3-4 people repeated the exact same phrase one after another is totally different. are u saying that the accusations themselves are incorrect or that you don't believe parroting is a common scumtactic?

interesting that people would be more willing to dismiss rather than address new information so early in the game

 

[adumbrodeus]

All of those are numbers games and need to be calculated before we even consider them.



The big problem with investigating non-shoots is what if it's the godfather? I'm sure he'd be happy to claim "inability to shoot".


His mere existence screws with the concept of investigating non-shoots.


If you outed a non-mafia aligned non-shoot, you're opening a cop up for risk of being NK'd, or a bomb being rewired.



Conclusion: Numbers need to be run before we make a decision about how to optimally deal with the non-shooters, but for now, let's just scumhunt.

 

[Omnididdle]

Holy ****, stop posting nonsense. This is exactly why claimed bombs should be investigated. As long as the cop(s) have a result on claimed bombs it's unimportant if they get rewired or not.

the problem with bomb claiming is that mafia knows instantly if they're lying or telling the truth. cop investigates the same night that mafia rewires or cop investigates the GF and gets a vanilla read. basically, if the cop investigates a claimed bomb, comes up with the investigation "yep, hes a bomb", there's a good chance he's already rewired at that point. i dont quite have a solution for this but i dont think bombs should ever claim... ever.

instead, a "vanilla/not vanilla" claim may be more viable. w/e. claims can be super safe at the moment. thats why there's only 3 scum. they can hide very well early game. id rather concentrate on finding scum

i still like the idea of overswarm shooting or being shot for the moment

 

[thedocsalive]

So what does everyone think about informally voting as a guide to our daykills/who does them? I feel like without even a fake votecount, the daykills could sway too strongly towards the most recent posts and not reflect the full day/game as they should.

 

[Chaco]

That's not a bad idea really.

 

[Overswarm]

So if we only claim "inability to shoot" rather than role, just be aware this gives the Godfather more of an out. If we catch the godfather early but don't kill him because he might be a bomb / cop, but later 3 bombs die, if he had claimed bomb we would have killed him. Likewise with cops.

It might not be a bad idea for people who can shoot to claim "inability to shoot" and then shoot the next day, as this would make it more likely that mafia would try to rewire them (and fail).

 

[Omnididdle]

stop trying to trick mafia @ OS

and try to find them instead

you're being very useless so far

 

[Nicholas1024]

Personally, I'd tell the truth about my claim, but OS does bring up something to consider.

@Omniriddle

Unless somebody basically parrots with every post, IMO it's a null tell. And even then it depends on the person.

 

[Nicholas1024]

So what does everyone think about informally voting as a guide to our daykills/who does them? I feel like without even a fake votecount, the daykills could sway too strongly towards the most recent posts and not reflect the full day/game as they should.

Just wanted to post and say that this is an excellent idea, and I fully support it.

 

[CT Chia]

the obvious trend going on here is that when someone thinks theyve found some sort of plan or trick, there's always a "but" that someone finds. now while if the poster of the idea if just stupid and missed a rule (lol OS?) or if theyr trying to trick a faction in hoping they believe in the plan, idk.

I'm inclined to believe that the latter is a more scummy move (especially potentially discussing with others to devise the plans or have them in on missing the "but" clause)

were not gonna break the game, the chances are slim to nil. we know the work ff has put into this and imsure hes had many smart people look it over. this obviously isnt the way to go today, and one of the ppl devising such plans should probably be the play for today - whether they shoot or are shot.

 

[Rockin]

Argh, all I mostly see here is discussion about the mechanics of the game and trying to short cut their way to catching Mafia.

Overswarm, I understand you have a fetish of deducting, analyzing, and breaking the game to your benefit (whether's it's mafia's or town's interest), I suggest you try a DIFFERENT route in this game. I want to remind you that 1) there is more then one person that can shoot and about half of the people in the game might not be so hesitant to shoot you. 2) FF is an effing OG DG and has found ways to make it hard to break a game.

I suggest you thoroughly read the rules and then come back to the rest of us in terms of catching scum and not the mechanics of the game

which reminds me: everyone pretty much knows which roles are in this game and how many said roles are, so discussing this in such detail would not help us catch scum any faster.

Nich, I want you to explain to me what's the benefit of immediatly shooting a bomb and then I'll tell you MY reason of why it's such a effing bad idea.

Gheb, Ronike, explain to me why it's important for OS to shoot someone.

I'm against bombs claiming in general. It's their job to not act so **** scummy. As far as dealing with Godfathers, just treat them like any regular one: innocent till proven guilty.

I really want to try and avoid the whole mechanics of the game and move on to something more beneficial to the game. Like, you know, asking questions.

Everyone - What do you feel would be the best method to approching this day?

Omniddle - err...how does it make you feel that your name sounds like a sex offender? >>

Chibo - are you going to be an idiot in this game? =/